Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Wide Eyed in Wonder"
Date:	12 Jul 2006 08:16:08 AM
Object:	Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)

Some want you to think Demons don't exist and were simply a way of
describing sickness or mental disorder. Well, consider the case of
Jesus casting the spirits into the pigs. If the man was simply
mentally ill, what spoke back to Jesus? What went into the pigs? Why
did the pigs act up and run off the cliff at the exact moment Christ
sent the spirits into them? Why did the villagers condemn Christ for
what happened to the pigs, if there were no spirits that went into
them?
Don't be deceived. If you know they exist, you will fight them. So,
the largest lie that demons say (even today) is, I'm not here.
All that being said, Christ cast out every spirit that opposed Him and
no spirit present had authority over him. None still do today. As He
said, all authority is His in Heaven and Earth. Every spirit must bow
to the name of Jeshua, Jesus the Christ.
Ken Clifton
-Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.

User: "Opie"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	12 Jul 2006 09:38:37 AM

On 12 Jul 2006 06:16:08 -0700, "Wide Eyed in
Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Some want you to think Demons don't exist and were
simply a way of
describing sickness or mental disorder. Well,
consider the case of
Jesus casting the spirits into the pigs. If the
man was simply
mentally ill, what spoke back to Jesus? What went
into the pigs? Why
did the pigs act up and run off the cliff at the
exact moment Christ
sent the spirits into them? Why did the villagers
condemn Christ for
what happened to the pigs, if there were no
spirits that went into
them?
Don't be deceived. If you know they exist, you
will fight them. So,
the largest lie that demons say (even today) is,
I'm not here.
All that being said, Christ cast out every spirit
that opposed Him and
no spirit present had authority over him. None
still do today. As He
said, all authority is His in Heaven and Earth.
Every spirit must bow
to the name of Jeshua, Jesus the Christ.
Ken Clifton
-Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
Casting demons into pigs is simply another
biblical absurdity that only a child could
believe. Why would anyone who has a modicum of
intelligence believe the fabricated bible when it
is full of such tripe?
.

User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	12 Jul 2006 12:34:55 PM

Opie wrote:

Casting demons into pigs is simply another
biblical absurdity that only a child could
believe. Why would anyone who has a modicum of
intelligence believe the fabricated bible when it
is full of such tripe?

Exactly. You must discredit the whole bible to say demons don't exist.
One question. Do you have evidence that the events in the Bible are
wrong (another source perhaps), or are you just claiming stuff you
cannot prove. If so, what makes you different from your charges
against Christians?
Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.

User: "Dasa anudasa"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	12 Jul 2006 01:31:05 PM

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152725695.873991.196400@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Opie wrote:

Exactly. You must discredit the whole bible to say demons don't exist.
One question. Do you have evidence that the events in the Bible are
wrong (another source perhaps), or are you just claiming stuff you
cannot prove. If so, what makes you different from your charges
against Christians?

Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken

OK, let's start with a simple problem.
Christians claim that Jesus is God on Earth. In fact, Jesus is the Word. And
Jesus' most important acts are his death and resurrection, correct? So, you
might believe that the thing Jesus says just before his most important act
would be especially critical.
The Word's last words, so to speak.
And what does the bible say about those words?
***********************************************************************************************
Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost."
Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father,
unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the
ghost."
John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is
finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
***********************************************************************************************
So, which version is correct? They can't all be correct, so at least two
versions must be WRONG. Actually, they are probably ALL wrong, but I'll be
generous.
But WAIT! The bible is the inspired word of God, so how can it possibly be
wrong?
Well, how can the inspired word of God be wrong?
.

User: "torresD"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	12 Jul 2006 01:39:04 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/736847.html
Last update - 05:58 11/07/2006
New bus route leaves Palestinian workers walking
By Yair Ettinger, Haaretz Correspondent
The new route of a bus line that goes
from the West Bank settlement of Modi'in
Ilit to Bnei Brak leaves Palestinian workers
without transportation.
Last week,
the Superbus company instructed its
drivers to drop the stop outside
Hashmonaim,
where the workers generally are picked up,
several months after having dropped the
stop outside of Modi'in Ilit
(also known as Kiryat Sefer)
and forcing the workers to walk
some 1.5 kilometers to the
Hashmonaim stop.
Since the workers are not allowed
into the settlements themselves,
they are now left to walk even further -
to the Lapid or Shilat junctions,
where they wait for a ride or an Egged bus.
Superbus said the decision to do
away with the stop outside Hashmonaim
was made on the order of the Israel
Defense Forces.
The IDF did not respond
to a request for comment.
The workers are veteran Superbus riders,
as they show by whisking out their bus passes,
and their proximity to an IDF roadblock and
the beefed-up police presence on Route 446
make it quite likely that almost all have
permits allowing them to be in Israel.
Superbus said they have sometimes
pressured drivers not to let them
board the buses.
"Sometimes someone stands at the
door of the bus and screams at the
driver not to let us on,"
said Ahmed Kadah,
a Palestinian contractor who
travels on the Modi'in Ilit line.
"Sometimes 10 Arabs board the bus,"
said a Modi'in Ilit resident.
"It's real fear.
Who knows who or what they are?
There are children here who
study at yeshivas in Bnei Brak,
and the parents are
really scared to send them.
If an Arab gets on a bus,
the women call their husbands
right away."
Superbus CEO Eli Balilius said
he was prepared to operate a
separate bus line just for
Palestinians,
as the company had in the past.
However, he said the security
forces would have to play a role.
"The Superbus company has
an interest in transporting as
many passengers as possible,
without making religious,
racial or gender distinctions," he said.
"I am prepared to operate
a special bus for workers;
if there are 50 or even 40
passengers, it will be worth it for me.
The problem is that there
needs to be a police entity that is
authorized to check the passengers
to see if they have valid permits.
My drivers don't have the authority to do that."
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	21 Nov 2006 12:53:11 PM

Cease attacks on and in Israel for a number of *years* and things will iron
themselves out for your benifit :-)
"torresD" <torresd30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:clbtg.7714$cd3.2297@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/736847.html
Last update - 05:58 11/07/2006
New bus route leaves Palestinian workers walking

By Yair Ettinger, Haaretz Correspondent

The new route of a bus line that goes
from the West Bank settlement of Modi'in
Ilit to Bnei Brak leaves Palestinian workers
without transportation.

Last week,
the Superbus company instructed its
drivers to drop the stop outside
Hashmonaim,

where the workers generally are picked up,
several months after having dropped the
stop outside of Modi'in Ilit
(also known as Kiryat Sefer)
and forcing the workers to walk
some 1.5 kilometers to the
Hashmonaim stop.

Since the workers are not allowed
into the settlements themselves,
they are now left to walk even further -
to the Lapid or Shilat junctions,
where they wait for a ride or an Egged bus.

Superbus said the decision to do
away with the stop outside Hashmonaim
was made on the order of the Israel
Defense Forces.

The IDF did not respond
to a request for comment.

The workers are veteran Superbus riders,
as they show by whisking out their bus passes,
and their proximity to an IDF roadblock and
the beefed-up police presence on Route 446
make it quite likely that almost all have
permits allowing them to be in Israel.

Superbus said they have sometimes
pressured drivers not to let them
board the buses.

"Sometimes someone stands at the
door of the bus and screams at the
driver not to let us on,"
said Ahmed Kadah,

a Palestinian contractor who
travels on the Modi'in Ilit line.

"Sometimes 10 Arabs board the bus,"
said a Modi'in Ilit resident.

"It's real fear.

Who knows who or what they are?

There are children here who
study at yeshivas in Bnei Brak,

and the parents are
really scared to send them.

If an Arab gets on a bus,
the women call their husbands
right away."

Superbus CEO Eli Balilius said
he was prepared to operate a
separate bus line just for
Palestinians,

as the company had in the past.

However, he said the security
forces would have to play a role.

"The Superbus company has
an interest in transporting as
many passengers as possible,
without making religious,
racial or gender distinctions," he said.

"I am prepared to operate
a special bus for workers;

if there are 50 or even 40
passengers, it will be worth it for me.

The problem is that there
needs to be a police entity that is
authorized to check the passengers
to see if they have valid permits.

My drivers don't have the authority to do that."

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	26 Nov 2006 01:22:53 PM

All three
"Dasa anudasa" <dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote in message
news:Jdbtg.3645$vO.2780@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152725695.873991.196400@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Opie wrote:

Exactly. You must discredit the whole bible to say demons don't exist.
One question. Do you have evidence that the events in the Bible are
wrong (another source perhaps), or are you just claiming stuff you
cannot prove. If so, what makes you different from your charges
against Christians?

Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken

OK, let's start with a simple problem.

Christians claim that Jesus is God on Earth. In fact, Jesus is the Word.
And Jesus' most important acts are his death and resurrection, correct?
So, you might believe that the thing Jesus says just before his most
important act would be especially critical.

The Word's last words, so to speak.

And what does the bible say about those words?

***********************************************************************************************

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost."
Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father,
unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the
ghost."

John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It
is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

***********************************************************************************************

So, which version is correct? They can't all be correct, so at least two
versions must be WRONG. Actually, they are probably ALL wrong, but I'll
be generous.

But WAIT! The bible is the inspired word of God, so how can it possibly
be wrong?

Well, how can the inspired word of God be wrong?

User: "shriven leper"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	12 Jul 2006 02:48:04 PM

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 18:31:05 GMT, "Dasa anudasa"
<dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote:

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152725695.873991.196400@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Opie wrote:

Exactly. You must discredit the whole bible to say demons don't exist.
One question. Do you have evidence that the events in the Bible are
wrong (another source perhaps), or are you just claiming stuff you
cannot prove. If so, what makes you different from your charges
against Christians?

Ken Clifton
-author of Life is Optional
http://www.lulu.com/writingken

OK, let's start with a simple problem.

Not necessarily a problem at all, see below.

Christians claim that Jesus is God on Earth. In fact, Jesus is the Word. And
Jesus' most important acts are his death and resurrection, correct? So, you
might believe that the thing Jesus says just before his most important act
would be especially critical.

The Word's last words, so to speak.

And what does the bible say about those words?

***********************************************************************************************

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost."
Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father,
unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the
ghost."

John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is
finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

***********************************************************************************************

So, which version is correct? They can't all be correct, so at least two
versions must be WRONG.

Not necessarily. The Gospel writers worked with traditions they had
at hand, and it is plausible that these traditions reported various
"last words" of Jesus. Different people remember different things, and
Jesus' reported final words may simply be differing reports of
differing people. And they can all be correct, if Jesus said them
all. You can't prove he didn't.

Actually, they are probably ALL wrong,

Not so likely with Lama Sabachthani, since it supports the
"embarrassment" theory. The church was unlikely to have preserved
such a saying, which could be interpreted as Jesus losing faith.
"Into your hands I commend my spirit" is typical of things the Lukan
Jesus said. If Luke got the other sayings right, then it's plausible
he got this one right as well. If this saying isn't historical, then
it still fits in with Lukan midrash such as is found in his infancy
narrative. It value is not historical, but theological: it's a
teaching device revealing the enduring Spirit in Jesus' life. A
similar perspective can be applied to Jesus' last words in John's
Gospel, too.
The main problem is that there were probably no eyewitness
testimonies to the crucifixion which actually made their way into the
Gospels. It's entirely possible that all of Jesus' last words were
posthumous Gospel commentaries on the meaning of his death. That
would make them unhistorical, but not necessarily "wrong", since that
judgment is to apply post-Enlightenment historical theory to
pre-scientific midrashic texts. Ours is the first culture in history
to misidentify truth with literal factualness. This puts religious
fundamentalists in the same bag with "scientific" reductionists: they
claim that if claimed events or words didn't happen in external
spacetime - "in history" - then the claimed events or words are not
true, because they are not "factual". An abysmally stupid
proposition.

but I'll be
generous.

First, try to stop being arrogant.

But WAIT!

But WAIT! Stop thinking like a Christian fundamentalist!

The bible is the inspired word of God, so how can it possibly be
wrong?

Easy. It's Mainstream Christianity 101 that "God put into scripture
only those truths necessary for spiritual enlightenment and
salvation". The rest of it is up for grabs, so we can't expect "God's
Word", couched as it is in pre-scientific terms, to contain anything
of scientific worth, except, of course, by accident. Hence, scripture
can be wildly erroneous in its non-salvific material. Relax. You're
thinking like a fundamentalist.
Moreover, you haven't proved that the NT is "wrong". The example
you chose - of Jesus' last words - is unsupportive of your claim. Far
better examples would be, why is Matthew's great discourse a sermon on
the _mount_ whereas for Luke it takes place on a _plane_ ? Why are
Matthew's and Luke's infancy narratives mutually contradictory? Why
does John's Jesus speak like John writes - and why does John's Jesus
speak entirely differently than does the Jesus of the other Gospels?
Such examples of NT contradictions can be multiplied. Perhaps you
haven't studied enought the documents you claim to know so well and
despise so bitterly.

Well, how can the inspired word of God be wrong?

Well, why do you feel the need to repeat the question? The answer
is in the above paragraph.
- sl -
.

User: "Dasa anudasa"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	12 Jul 2006 03:39:38 PM

"shriven leper" <bastasch8647@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:73jab2hig72i2hpa1s07cej98k8ake02b4@4ax.com...

Moreover, you haven't proved that the NT is "wrong". The example
you chose - of Jesus' last words - is unsupportive of your claim. Far
better examples would be, why is Matthew's great discourse a sermon on
the _mount_ whereas for Luke it takes place on a _plane_ ? Why are
Matthew's and Luke's infancy narratives mutually contradictory? Why
does John's Jesus speak like John writes - and why does John's Jesus
speak entirely differently than does the Jesus of the other Gospels?
Such examples of NT contradictions can be multiplied. Perhaps you
haven't studied enought the documents you claim to know so well and
despise so bitterly.

Yes, you are--in part--correct. The bible is full of errors. Bigger errors.
More greivous errors. I should have selected another.
Oh well. To err is human, after all....
But I do not despise the bible, nor do I claim to know the bible so well.
I only know it as well as the average Christian--a select and often silly
group of which I am not a part. But even I can see that the book is a
nightmare of hacked editing.
Perhaps it was once an inspired work of God, but it has since become a
worldly relic, tainted by religion and politics, and limited in spiritual or
philosophical value.
.

User: "Dasa anudasa"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	12 Jul 2006 03:21:59 PM

"shriven leper" <bastasch8647@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:73jab2hig72i2hpa1s07cej98k8ake02b4@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 18:31:05 GMT, "Dasa anudasa"
<dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote:

OK, let's start with a simple problem.

Not necessarily a problem at all, see below.

Christians claim that Jesus is God on Earth. In fact, Jesus is the Word.
And
Jesus' most important acts are his death and resurrection, correct? So,
you
might believe that the thing Jesus says just before his most important act
would be especially critical.

The Word's last words, so to speak.

And what does the bible say about those words?

***********************************************************************************************

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost."

Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father,
unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the
ghost."

John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It
is
finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

***********************************************************************************************

So, which version is correct? They can't all be correct, so at least two
versions must be WRONG.

The bible is supposed to be the inspired word of God. Infallible. Without
error.
Therefore, if the bible has an error, then either God is not infallible, or
the book is just a book, written by a group of men who remember events
through their imperfect senses.
Jesus, if he existed at all, and if he died on the cross, must have spoke
some last words as he hung there, tortured and crucified. Further, if he is
the Christ, then he is about to do something of infinite importance to the
entire world. You would think that his disciples would be paying very close
attention at that moment. And, aided by divine inspiration, you would think
that they wouldn't get it wrong afterwards.
But at least two of them do. What is the cause of this error? Well, as you
so wisely stated: "Different people remember different things."
The bible attributes three completely different statements to Jesus in the
instant before he gave up his spirit. These are not three interpretations of
the same comment, but three separate ideas, each utterly different. Despite
their love for Jesus, despite the fact that these would be the last words
they ever heard their master speak, and despite the supposed fact that God
is helping them out, they get it wrong.
If the personal disciples of the savior of the whole earth cannot remember
such an important moment correctly, then how can we be sure that any other
parts of the bible are remembered correctly? Translated correctly?
Transcribed correctly?
In fact, once you cast doubt on the possibility that the bible is divinely
inspired, how can anyone be sure that the book is not an out an out lie?
Sadly, you cannot.
Lastly, you suppose that Jesus may have said all those things that the three
disciples claim to have heard, just before he gave up the ghost. Yes, he may
have said all those thing--in any order--but he may not have. I don't need
to prove that he didn't say them.
It is the Christian claim that the bible is the inspired word of God, and
the OP who said there are no errors in the bible. It is his and your
responsibility, and the collective responsibility of all of various the
Christian churches to provode proof that the claim is correct, not mine or
anyone elses to disprove.
Prove that Jesus said all those things. Prove that the bible is without
error. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke in the hopes that no one will
see clearly.
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	05 Oct 2006 07:21:19 PM

"Dasa anudasa" <dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote in message
news:HRctg.7757$cd3.5920@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

"shriven leper" <bastasch8647@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:73jab2hig72i2hpa1s07cej98k8ake02b4@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 18:31:05 GMT, "Dasa anudasa"
<dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote:

<snip>

...So, which version is correct? They can't all be correct, so at least
two
versions must be WRONG.

The bible is supposed to be the inspired word of God.

Picaso's The Woman was *inspired* by a real woman, but unlike the resulted
art work. she didn't have both her eyes on the left side of her nose.

Infallible.

Fallible men were *inspired* by God to write what they did... Note *Fallible
men*

Without error. Therefore, if the bible has an error, then either God is
not infallible, or the book is just a book, written by a group of men who
remember events through their imperfect senses.

They (inperfect men) inspired by God to wrote what they remembered and
expirenced.

Jesus, if he existed at all, and if he died on the cross, must have spoke
some last words as he hung there, tortured and crucified. Further, if he
is the Christ, then he is about to do something of infinite importance to
the entire world. You would think that his disciples would be paying very
close attention at that moment. And, aided by divine inspiration, you
would think that they wouldn't get it wrong afterwards.

I don't believe they did, they were individuals who each had their own
understanding of what they had seen, heard, and gathered (as in the case of
Luke) from witnesses.

But at least two of them do. What is the cause of this error? Well, as you
so wisely stated: "Different people remember different things."

Agreed.

The bible attributes three completely different statements to Jesus in the
instant before he gave up his spirit. These are not three interpretations
of the same comment, but three separate ideas, each utterly different.

And each divinely inspired, thus equally valuable.

Despite their love for Jesus, despite the fact that these would be the last
words they ever heard their master speak, and despite the supposed fact
that God is helping them out, they get it wrong.

I disagree, they covered a spiritual event... Recall Jesus spoke in
parables, the details are of no import, but the messages each received is.
Nit picking detracts from the spiritual messages.

If the personal disciples of the savior of the whole earth cannot remember
such an important moment correctly, then how can we be sure that any other
parts of the bible are remembered correctly? Translated correctly?
Transcribed correctly?

We depend on the Holy Spirit, not just the text, to provide us with the
spiritual messages the Holy Spirit intends for us to receive, to best serve
our present spiritual growth, and situations in each our personal lives, as
we read / hear read the text.

In fact, once you cast doubt on the possibility that the bible is divinely
inspired, how can anyone be sure that the book is not an out an out lie?

Again, the "book" isn't the thing of import, rather, its the message the
Holy Spirit is using the text to get across to you, or me.

Sadly, you cannot.
Lastly, you suppose that Jesus may have said all those things that the
three disciples claim to have heard, just before he gave up the ghost.
Yes, he may have said all those thing--in any order--but he may not have.
I don't need to prove that he didn't say them.

Correct, personally, I see no need to prove anything one way or the other
about it. My concern is, what is God trying to say to *me*

It is the Christian claim that the bible is the inspired word of God, and
the OP who said there are no errors in the bible. It is his and your
responsibility, and the collective responsibility of all of various the
Christian churches to provode proof that the claim is correct, not mine or
anyone elses to disprove.

Wrong, as I stated above... I have no 'responsibility' to prove anything.
God proved Himself to me, when the time comes, He will prove Himself to you.

Prove that Jesus said all those things.

You aren't God, you have no authority which qualifies you with the right to
dictate to me.

Prove that the bible is without error.

Now why would I want to do that ?

Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke in the hopes that no one will see
clearly.

Or you are still spiritually blind, which isn't my problem.
.

User: "shriven leper"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	12 Jul 2006 10:22:28 PM

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:21:59 GMT, "Dasa anudasa"
<dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote:

"shriven leper" <bastasch8647@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:73jab2hig72i2hpa1s07cej98k8ake02b4@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 18:31:05 GMT, "Dasa anudasa"
<dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote:

OK, let's start with a simple problem.

Not necessarily a problem at all, see below.

Christians claim that Jesus is God on Earth. In fact, Jesus is the Word.
And
Jesus' most important acts are his death and resurrection, correct? So,
you
might believe that the thing Jesus says just before his most important act
would be especially critical.

The Word's last words, so to speak.

And what does the bible say about those words?

***********************************************************************************************

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost."

Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father,
unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the
ghost."

John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It
is
finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

***********************************************************************************************

So, which version is correct? They can't all be correct, so at least two
versions must be WRONG.

The bible is supposed to be the inspired word of God. Infallible. Without
error.

As I pointed out, your view is quite mistaken. Only fundamentalists
believe that "inspiration" means "without factual error". Mainstream
Christianity is not so constrained, and accepts the results and
methodology of critical scholarship.

Therefore, if the bible has an error, then either God is not infallible, or
the book is just a book, written by a group of men who remember events
through their imperfect senses.

No, as I pointed out, mainstream Christianity - not your
fundamentalist allies - says that if the Bible has an error this does
not effect its inspiration (unless that error concerns ethics or
salvation theory).

Jesus, if he existed at all, and if he died on the cross, must have spoke
some last words as he hung there, tortured and crucified.

Another assumption on your part. Most crucifixion victims,
especially if they had been beaten beforehand (the Romans called
flagellation The Halfway Death), and fighting slow asphyxiation, would
have had very little if anything to say. Almost certainly Jesus would
have said nothing, and if he did, he wouldn't be interpreting his
death for his hearers.

Further, if he is
the Christ, then he is about to do something of infinite importance to the
entire world.

No, he wasn't about to do anything for the entire world. He was
arrested and executed. That his death was an atonement is an ad hoc
explanation of how the messiah was killed by heathens.

You would think that his disciples would be paying very close
attention at that moment.

As I pointed out, there was no eyewitness testimony of the
crucifixion that made it into the Gospels, so your point is moot.

And, aided by divine inspiration, you would think
that they wouldn't get it wrong afterwards.

Only by your fundamentalistic understanding of inspiration as
"factual, literal truth".

But at least two of them do. What is the cause of this error?

But as I showed, your examples are not revelatory of "error" in the
crucifixion narratives.

Well, as you
so wisely stated: "Different people remember different things."

I didn't say that in fact the differing - differing, not necessarily
erroneous - Gospel depictions of the crucifixion were ever based on
eyewitness memory. In fact, I said the opposite. I said that,
especially for Luke, they could be midrash.

The bible attributes three completely different statements to Jesus in the
instant before he gave up his spirit.

"Instant"? Not supported in the texts. Jesus is depicted as being
on the cross for at least three hours.

These are not three interpretations of
the same comment, but three separate ideas, each utterly different.

"Different" is not equivalent to "wrong".

Despite
their love for Jesus, despite the fact that these would be the last words
they ever heard their master speak,

As I said, the disciples were not present at the crucifixion, and
any of Jesus' followers who were present didn't get their testimonies
put into the passion narratives.

and despite the supposed fact that God
is helping them out, they get it wrong.

You haven't shown that the statements were wrong, merely "different"
from each other.
And you haven't proven that divine inspiration ("God helping them
out") means factual, literal truth. You're surprisingly happy to
burden yourself with a fundamentalist notion of inspiration.

If the personal disciples of the savior of the whole earth cannot remember
such an important moment correctly,

For the hundredth time: the disciples weren't there, weren't
eyewitnesses. Quit making stuff up.

then how can we be sure that any other
parts of the bible are remembered correctly? Translated correctly?
Transcribed correctly?

That's the job of critical scholarship, whose methods are strikingly
unfamiliar to you..

In fact, once you cast doubt on the possibility that the bible is divinely
inspired, how can anyone be sure that the book is not an out an out lie?

You've failed to cast doubt on the Bible's inspiration. You've only
parroted the silly fundamentalist notion that inspiration means
literal, factual truth. That's your problem, and it's a big one.

Sadly, you cannot.

Not my battle, not my issue. I'm neither Christian nor Jewish.

Lastly, you suppose that Jesus may have said all those things that the three
disciples claim to have heard, just before he gave up the ghost. Yes, he may
have said all those thing--in any order--but he may not have. I don't need
to prove that he didn't say them.

You stated unequivocally that the statements are "wrong" and in
"error" - changed your mind now, have you?
And if Jesus _may_ have said all those things in any order, as you
admit, then the Gospel reports are not wrong and erroneous, but
correct and truthful. You just proved my point.

It is the Christian claim that the bible is the inspired word of God,

It is your petty, uneducated fundamentalist view that "inspiration"
= "literal, historical, factual truth". You're self-burdened with
this arbitrary literalist notion, but enlightened folks aren't. Your
real argument is with your fellow fundamentalists.

and
the OP who said there are no errors in the bible. It is his and your
responsibility,

Wrong guy. I have no such responsibility. I am neither Jewish nor
Christian, and the Bible is not "scripture" for me. The Bible
contains truth and error, good and bad. Its purported "divine
inspiration" is not relevant to my beliefs - but it certainly is to
yours. In fact, you're hung up on the issue, and on your own wacky
definition of "divine inspiration".

and the collective responsibility of all of various the
Christian churches to provode proof that the claim is correct, not mine or
anyone elses to disprove.

Consider your points disproven, then. Hell, you came around to
agreeing with me that Jesus _may_ have said the Gospel words "in any
order", even. Every point you made has been refuted:
1) Divine inspiration = factual, literal, historical truth. I shot
that fundamentalist notion down right quick.
2) The Gospel passion narratives got Jesus' last words "wrong" and
in "error". I showed you could not prove that contention. Then you
changed your mind and agreed that Jesus actually could have spoken
those exact words in any order.
3) You consistently misidentify me as a promoter of the Bible as an
example of "divine inspiration". Whereas I am neither Jewish nor
Christian, and for me the Bible is no more "inspired" than the
Bhagavad-Gita, the Unpanishads, the Koran, or the Dhamapadda, etc.

Prove that Jesus said all those things.

As I said, it's not provable one way or the other, at least in lieu
of a time machine that would put us "right there". Only your sad,
fundamentalist squint makes scriptural truth depend on "proof" of
"literal, factual, historical" reports. You're as much a biblical
literalist as are the Christian fundamentalists you so despise.
As I also said, it is not central to the NT's message that these
words are literal reports of factual, historical utterances by Jesus.
That's all your fundamentalist hermeneutics speaking. It is not
important "that Jesus said all those things".

Prove that the bible is without
error. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke in the hopes that no one will
see clearly.

Okay, now you've crossed the line into outright lying. Ether that,
or you're functionally illiterate. The only one blowing smoke around
here is you:
As I said, I never maintained that the Bible is without error. I
said it's full of truth and errors, good and bad.
As I said, the Bible can be truthful without depending on literal,
factual, historical statements. That's a fundamentalist prejudice
which you've happily taken upon yourself, whereas enlightened
Christian and critical scholarship recognize that the Bible's
metaphorical truth does not rest on literal, factual, historical
reporting.
As I said, and will repeat just once more since it went right over
your head,
"Mainstream Christianity 101: God only put into scripture those
truths necessary to our enlightenment and salvation." Everything
else, including purportedly historical, factual, and "scientific"
reports, is up for grabs. You're trying to knock down a straw man of
your own invention.
As I said, the Bible contains metaphorical truths that do not depend
on, say, literal, factual, historical reporting of Jesus' last words.
Stop lying about me and my beliefs and what I have said about myself
and about biblical interpretation. Otherwise, you're just blowing
smoke in the hopes that no one will see clearly.
- sl -
.

User: "Dasa anudasa"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	13 Jul 2006 12:41:24 AM

"shriven leper" <bastasch8647@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7ncbb2tvt047almv0dlptj3kn77b5k6e27@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:21:59 GMT, "Dasa anudasa"
<dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote:

The bible is supposed to be the inspired word of God. Infallible. Without
error.

This is not actually my view. My view is that the bible is full of errors.
And I disagree with your statement that only fundies believe that the bible
is free from factual errors. Or, if such a belief is relegated to the
fundamentalists, then the fundalmentalists make up a much greater percentage
of the Christian church than I had perviously believed.

Therefore, if the bible has an error, then either God is not infallible,
or
the book is just a book, written by a group of men who remember events
through their imperfect senses.

No, as I pointed out, mainstream Christianity - not your
fundamentalist allies

Again, not my allies, in any way, shape or form.
- says that if the Bible has an error this does

not effect its inspiration (unless that error concerns ethics or
salvation theory).

I understand that you do not believe as such, but I don't accept your
assertion that the greater part of Christianity agrees with you. Still, I'd
be happy to be proven wrong on that. Care to give up some numbers that show
you're in the mainstream, and not on the progressive edge?

Jesus, if he existed at all, and if he died on the cross, must have spoke
some last words as he hung there, tortured and crucified.

Another assumption on your part.

No, not at all. The bible says he had several last words. I've assumed
nothing.

Most crucifixion victims,
especially if they had been beaten beforehand (the Romans called
flagellation The Halfway Death), and fighting slow asphyxiation, would
have had very little if anything to say.

Odd. The bible seems to indicate that the theives surrounding Jesus were
quite the chatty bunch.

Almost certainly Jesus would
have said nothing, and if he did, he wouldn't be interpreting his
death for his hearers.

But then Jesus was no mere man, or so says Christian dogma.

Further, if he is
the Christ, then he is about to do something of infinite importance to the
entire world.

No, he wasn't about to do anything for the entire world. He was
arrested and executed. That his death was an atonement is an ad hoc
explanation of how the messiah was killed by heathens.

Well now! Though I personally agree with this comment, I'm more certain than
ever that your views are not in line with those held by the vast majority of
folks who consider themselves faithful Christians.

You would think that his disciples would be paying very close
attention at that moment.

As I pointed out, there was no eyewitness testimony of the
crucifixion that made it into the Gospels, so your point is moot.

Agreed. My error. Everything written in the modern bible that depicts the
crucifiction of Jesus is hearsay. Not very reliable at all.

And, aided by divine inspiration, you would think
that they wouldn't get it wrong afterwards.

Only by your fundamentalistic understanding of inspiration as
"factual, literal truth".

But then we already know that your interpretation of the death of Jesus is
not mainstream Christianity. Just what do you consider "fundamentalistic"?

But at least two of them do. What is the cause of this error?

But as I showed, your examples are not revelatory of "error" in the
crucifixion narratives.

You've shown nothing more than your opinion.

Well, as you
so wisely stated: "Different people remember different things."

I didn't say that in fact the differing - differing, not necessarily
erroneous - Gospel depictions of the crucifixion were ever based on
eyewitness memory.

Well, either Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me" and then gave up the
ghost, or he did not. There is an objective truth here that you are
delibrately avoiding.
In fact, I said the opposite. I said that,

especially for Luke, they could be midrash.

The bible attributes three completely different statements to Jesus in the
instant before he gave up his spirit.

"Instant"? Not supported in the texts. Jesus is depicted as being
on the cross for at least three hours.

Not one of the accounts of Jesus' crucifiction says anything to support the
concept that he spoke, then lived for an hour or so, silently, before he
passed. Are you really meaning to say that he did?

These are not three interpretations of
the same comment, but three separate ideas, each utterly different.

"Different" is not equivalent to "wrong".

No, it isn't, at least not always. But "different" is synonymous with words
such as "clashing," or "opposed." If we were discussing emotions or personal
opinions, then I might accept your argument. Take the statement: "I have a
different feeling towards Jesus than you do." There is no right or wrong
implication, just a matter of differences.
However, if two historians give different accounts of how a chain of events
played out, then it is without a doubt that one of them-or perhaps both of
them-are wrong.
Not everything is subjective. Surely you understand this?

then how can we be sure that any other
parts of the bible are remembered correctly? Translated correctly?
Transcribed correctly?

That's the job of critical scholarship, whose methods are strikingly
unfamiliar to you..

Hoho! Getty a little bitchy around the collar, aren't you? :)

In fact, once you cast doubt on the possibility that the bible is divinely
inspired, how can anyone be sure that the book is not an out an out lie?

You've failed to cast doubt on the Bible's inspiration. You've only
parroted the silly fundamentalist notion that inspiration means
literal, factual truth. That's your problem, and it's a big one.

What I am saying is that the "divine inspiration" as I see it being put
forward by mainstream Christianity, and as you see it being put forward by
fundies, is a ridiculous notion. We seem to agree on that point, and
disagree on who carries the "divine inspiration" flag, if you will.

Not my battle, not my issue. I'm neither Christian nor Jewish.

And neither am I, as I said some time earlier, in a previous post from this
thread.

Lastly, you suppose that Jesus may have said all those things that the
three
disciples claim to have heard, just before he gave up the ghost. Yes, he
may
have said all those thing--in any order--but he may not have. I don't need
to prove that he didn't say them.

You stated unequivocally that the statements are "wrong" and in
"error" - changed your mind now, have you?

And if Jesus _may_ have said all those things in any order, as you
admit, then the Gospel reports are not wrong and erroneous, but
correct and truthful. You just proved my point.

It is the Christian claim that the bible is the inspired word of God,

Why do you insist that I am taking the fundie view? I'm actually arguing
against it.
I don't think you read the whole thread. I think you just jumped in with a
chip on your sholder and began lashing out. Chill.

and
the OP who said there are no errors in the bible. It is his and your
responsibility,

Ok, now I think you are a nut.
You jumped into a thread, blindly responded to a post I made which was not
directed to you, misunderstood my views, ascribed to me the views of the
person to whom I was writing, and now you're telling me I've got the wrong
guy? You may not have said that the bible is without error, but the poster
named "Wide Eyed In Wonder" sure did.
Let me provide his quote: "Do you have evidence that the events in the Bible
are wrong (another source perhaps), or are you just claiming stuff you
cannot prove?"
And I clearly showed that the events presented in the bible cannot ALL be
true, because the only people who give accounts of this event, give
CONFLICTING accounts.
You could have easily gone back into the thread to read this, but you did
not. You just jumped in, made assumptions, added a bit of insult, and no
doubt congratulated yourself.
You're a madman.
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: Demons Exist (and bow to Christ)	27 Sep 2006 06:04:10 PM

Well done !
The anti-theists / anti- biblists whatever want to believe we are all
fundamentalists, because such are the easiest to belittle !
They hate the idea that most of us don't fit in the fundamentalist mold :-)
"shriven leper" <bastasch8647@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7ncbb2tvt047almv0dlptj3kn77b5k6e27@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:21:59 GMT, "Dasa anudasa"
<dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote:

"shriven leper" <bastasch8647@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:73jab2hig72i2hpa1s07cej98k8ake02b4@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 18:31:05 GMT, "Dasa anudasa"
<dasanudasa@servant.com> wrote:

OK, let's start with a simple problem.

Not necessarily a problem at all, see below.

Christians claim that Jesus is God on Earth. In fact, Jesus is the Word.
And
Jesus' most important acts are his death and resurrection, correct? So,
you
might believe that the thing Jesus says just before his most important
act
would be especially critical.

The Word's last words, so to speak.

And what does the bible say about those words?

***********************************************************************************************

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God,
why
hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost."

Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,
"Father,
unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up
the
ghost."

John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It
is
finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

***********************************************************************************************

So, which version is correct? They can't all be correct, so at least two
versions must be WRONG.