Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"old man joe"
Date:	25 Nov 2006 07:02:35 PM
Object:	Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "

while this verse is cited by some as a proof text of a monotheistic
Supreme Being but to the exclusion of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of
God, it can be plainly seen from the very same verse that it is a
proof text of a Supreme Being who somehow subsists as the One God
while yet unified in a plurality.
that's a fancy way of saying that God ( Elohiym, plural ) defines
Himself as One Jehovah whereas the word " one " in Deut. 6:4 speaks to
a unity... as does the word ' army ' or the word ' people ' or the
word ' nation ' ... as in the United States which together makes up
one America, and so on.
the word " one " in this verse is translated elsewhere to describe
the union of a man and his wife as in Gen. 2:24 whereas together they
shall be one flesh.
the word " one " in Deut. 6:4 is translated " united " in Ezr. 3:9
it can not be denied that the word " God " in Deut. 6:4 is a plural
word... Elohiym. yet, the verse goes on to say that Jehovah is
" one Jehovah "... " one Lord ".... one YHWH... a united plural
proper noun.
*********************************************************
" In the beginning Gods, they created the heavens and the earth "
the fact that the Lord our God somehow subsists as a united
plurality of Persons can not be denied by reason of the word's God
used to write His Bible and this is further illustrated by Gen. 1:26..
in Ge.1:26 we read " Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image,
according to Our likeness. "
every third grader understands that a pronoun refers back to some
noun in the subject. it can not be mistaken... but such can be
suppressed ( Ro. 1:18 )... that in Gen.1:26 the plural pronouns ' Us '
and ' Our ' refer to the plural proper noun Elohiym...Gods... plural.
it can not be as some say that the angels were referenced in
Gen. 1:26 since that is not grammatically correct... purposely
changing the Word of God to suit a belief system designed by
reprobates.
no, it can not be that angels were involved in the creation of man.
the Bible says God formed man from the dust of the ground... not
angels. man is made by God in the image of God.. " and God ( Elohiym;
plural ) said Let Us ( plural ) make man in Our ( plural ) image
( singular ) " ... one God of one image. Gen. 1:26
when Moses said to the Israelites " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our
God is one Jehovah. " in Deu 6:4 he is saying " Jehovah
( singular ) our Elohiym ( plural ) is one ( united ) Jehovah.
no one has the ability of mind to fully comprehend how the Lord God
subsists as Three Divine Persons, ( Ps. 139 ) namely; Father, Son and
Holy Spirit. yet, in this Psalm David names to three distinct Persons
of the Godhead the acts of which are too wonderful and too high to
attain to... God is known through His Name and through His works.
( wonderfully, the word ' wonderful ' in this Psalm is one of the
names of the Lord Jesus Christ... the same word used by The Angel of
the LORD in Judges 13:18 )
the LORD God is completely ' other than ' ( Isa. 46:9,10 ) and not
ever to be likened to anything in the physical world. Ex. 20:1-6
He is as far from explanation as Light is from darkness.
yet, He makes Himself know to His people through the faith of Jesus
which otherwise remains unseen. while " No one has seen God at any
time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He
has declared Him." Joh. 1:18
the carnal world can not come to the knowledge of God being they are
not filled with His Holy Spirit... for only His sheep are granted to
hear the voice of the Good Shepherd calling them by name.. " I am
the Good Shepherd, and I know those that are Mine, and I am known by
those who are Mine. "; " they shall hear My voice " Joh. 10:14-16
for God has chosen the weak things of the world and revealed Himself
to babes, for His purpose is to " confound the wise " 1 Cor. 1:27
************************************************
the regenerate Christian admits he doesn't fully comprehend how God,
who accepted him in the Beloved by Sovereign grace, subsists as Three
Person's all of whom made themselves known by personal revelation to
him in the Holy Scripture by His indwelling Holy Spirit, as One God.
Joh.14:16,17
as the Psalmist writes... " [Such] knowledge is too wonderful for
me; It is [too] high, I cannot attain to it. "
by this same admission the regenerate Christian concludes that only
to the children of the One True God are given the faith of Jesus to
understand spiritual truth... such as the mystery of the Blessed
Trinity. Joh. 14:17
to the world this has not been given. ( Joh. 14:17 ) and never will
be given unless the Lord God gives him life and the faith of Jesus.
****************************************************
in the Day of Judgement all eyes will see but One God and on that
Day we will all see Jesus Christ, for Judgement is committed to Him...
" for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily "
( Col. 2:9 ) " "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in
Me. " ( Joh 14:11)
" I and the Father are one." Joh. 10:30
" And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation
of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. "
Heb 1:3
His Holy Spirit, completely ' other than ', has been given to God's
elect to Tabernacle with us forever, declaring Truth... that is,
Jesus, to the inner man.
" And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may be with you forever;
[that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it does not behold Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because
He abides with you, and will be in you. " Joh. 14:16,17
" And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son
into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Ga 4:6
Praise be to God !
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	25 Nov 2006 07:30:55 PM

"the regenerate Christian concludes that only to the children of the One
True God are given the faith of Jesus to understand spiritual truth...
such
as the mystery of the Blessed Trinity."
The common to all christians expression of the Holy Trinity is that from
the 4th century in the nicene creed, which was a refined expression of
the faith held since the time of Acts and the start of the church.
.

User: "oldwetdog"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	25 Nov 2006 08:49:30 PM

wrote:

"the regenerate Christian concludes that only to the children of the One
True God are given the faith of Jesus to understand spiritual truth...
such
as the mystery of the Blessed Trinity."

The common to all christians expression of the Holy Trinity is that from
the 4th century in the nicene creed, which was a refined expression of
the faith held since the time of Acts and the start of the church.

AD325 would be more accurate...
An so you choose to believe a pagan doctrine forced upon the
Church by the first pagan man-god AND first Pope of the Roman
Catholic Church...
I guess this means you accept the Pope as "God on earth in the
absence of Christ" too?
When will you bow down to a statuette of Mary?
or do you already?
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 05:00:12 PM

The common to all christians expression of the Holy Trinity is that

from

the 4th century in the nicene creed, which was a refined expression of
the faith held since the time of Acts and the start of the church.

"AD325 would be more accurate..."
Nope, the 2nd church council of 385 completed what is the nicene creed,
it started in the 1st in 325.
"An so you choose to believe a pagan doctrine forced upon the
Church by the first pagan man-god AND first Pope of the Roman
Catholic Church..."
I have come to rely on one clear fact, your grasp of church and related
history is most often wrong. The pope of rome was one of 5 patriarchs
who oversaw the church, the other 4 were situated in other locations.
The pope sent representitive bishops to the council, as did the other
patriarchs, some of whom were also in attendance. It was the secular
leader of the roman empire located in constantinople who called the
council to discuss a hereesy that needed to be clarified. As the
aposiles did in acts in a council, bishops from all parts of the church
met to decide this and other matters.
The doctrine of the Holy Trinity in the creed is the exact one luthr and
calvin accepted and recited frequently without reservation, if it be
pagan then so are they. The creed is the source of the Holy Trinity,
the accepted expression of it, that you teach and you do so in ignorance
of its history. Have you read the creed, if not I will gladly post it?
"I guess this means you accept the Pope as "God on earth in the absence
of Christ" too?"
No, as in history, your grasp of other matters is equally poor also.
"When will you bow down to a statuette of Mary? or do you already?"
No.
.

User: "oldwetdog"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 05:48:49 PM

wrote:

The common to all christians expression of the Holy Trinity is that

from

the 4th century in the nicene creed, which was a refined expression of
the faith held since the time of Acts and the start of the church.

"AD325 would be more accurate..."

Nope, the 2nd church council of 385 completed what is the nicene creed,
it started in the 1st in 325.

OH?
it /completed/ something whaihc had began?
Oh!
Amazing!! UTTERLY AMAZING That the Gospel of Christ was completed
by the end of the first century (if not by AD33) but the Nicene
creed was not completed until AD385....
OK, thanks for admitting it is not from God's Word, not revealed
by Christ to His apostles!
Since it is not given BY the Apostles, we can (and should) reject it!
Your nit pick is as futile as it is ridiculous (although it is
fact by some definition.)
I have no intention of doing a survey of the triune doctrine and
how it came to be ... but if you wish to do so, feel free.
There is ample evidence that it did not spring full grown from
the ground, but was developed over time.
First:
Fact: it is not found in Scripture -- and anyone who makes that
claim is either suffering from satanic delusion or is a bold
faced liar.
Second:
The Establishment of the Organization called the Roman Catholic
Church occurred in AD325 although it continued to develop over
the next hundred(s) years, with Constantine as the first "popa.".
However, it was in AD325 at that council that triune doctrine
entered the Religious establishment.
Now: if you want to nit pick the details and dates -- feel free:
but you are squabbling over mint and cumin, nats and fleas.
go for it.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 06:18:23 PM

Concerning the 1st and 2nd councils and the nicene creed:
"OH?
it /completed/ something whaihc had began?
Oh!
Amazing!! UTTERLY AMAZING That the Gospel of Christ was completed
by the end of the first century (if not by AD33) but the Nicene
creed was not completed until AD385...."
It was completed in the sence that after the first creed of 325
additional information was added to clarify the heresy that lingered,
that addition was in the 2nd council in 385 and was the main reason for
it being called
"OK, thanks for admitting it is not from God's Word, not revealed
by Christ to His apostles!
Since it is not given BY the Apostles, we can (and should) reject it!"
And also too the many many doctrines taught and introduced by luther and
calvin by the same logic, they doing it 1500 years after the aposiles.
The creed was held to be a concise expression of doctrine since the
times of the aposiles.
""Your nit pick is as futile as it is ridiculous (although it is
fact by some definition.)
I have no intention of doing a survey of the triune doctrine and
how it came to be ... but if you wish to do so, feel free."
Yes, your knowledge of church and related history is almost lacking,
except for some often repeated urban legends invented long after the
fact, ignorance is bliss and don't confuse me with the details or the
facts.
"There is ample evidence that it did not spring full grown from the
ground, but was developed over time.
First: Fact: it is not found in Scripture -- and anyone who makes that
claim is either suffering from satanic delusion or is a bold faced liar.
Second: The Establishment of the Organization called the Roman Catholic
Church occurred in AD325 although it continued to develop over the next
hundred(s) years, with Constantine as the first "popa.".
However, it was in AD325 at that council that triune doctrine entered
the Religious establishment.
Now: if you want to nit pick the details and dates -- feel free: but you
are squabbling over mint and cumin, nats and fleas."
As above, ignorance is bliss, better to spread urban legend gossip,
don't confuse me with the facts and details. None of the above
assertions can be supported in history. I stand with luther and calvin
in confessing the creed, which they accepted without reservation.
As you reject the Holy Trinity then by self confession you join the
mormans and jw's and others in their heresy. There are no new heresies,
only new people who come along from time to time to reinvent the
heretical wheel.
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	25 Nov 2006 09:41:42 PM

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:49:30 -0800,
in article <12mi05qnrtfgc59@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:

An so you choose to believe a pagan doctrine forced upon the
Church by the first pagan man-god AND first Pope of the Roman
Catholic Church...

I guess this means you accept the Pope as "God on earth in the
absence of Christ" too?

When will you bow down to a statuette of Mary?
or do you already?

You are a damnable heretic for denying that Jesus is God. If
you say He is God, then you agree with the doctrine of the
trinity.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Mark T moi@09799875980987897764653418265985"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 12:23:27 AM

"Randy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

You are a damnable heretic for denying that Jesus is God.

Abraham, Moses and the porophets also denied that Jesus is God. Obviously
they are being burnt in hell forever by our loving God.
--
################################################################ Then God
spoke all these words. He said: 'I am Yahweh your God who brought you out
of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have NO GODS
(INCLUDING JESUS) EXCEPT ME.' - Exodus 20: 1-2
################################################################
.

User: "oldwetdog"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	25 Nov 2006 08:52:06 PM

old man joe wrote:

Fine: We all know "us" refers to more than one person.
What "Us" does NOT mean is that "us" are the same being.
THAT is pagan mysticism...
do google for baal and 'triune god"
Jesus IS the Son of God... and
THAT STATEMENT _requires_ two persons -- Father, and Son.
How many times did Jesus say, "My Father?"
THAT STATEMENT requires two persons, "Son, and Father"
There is no way short of pure delusion that anyone can make the
statement "I am the Son of God" or "My Father" into
a) The Father is His own son, or
b) The Son is His own Father.
That kind of perversion is straight from hell.

every third grader understands that a pronoun refers back to some
noun in the subject. it can not be mistaken... but such can be
suppressed ( Ro. 1:18 )... that in Gen.1:26 the plural pronouns ' Us '
and ' Our ' refer to the plural proper noun Elohiym...Gods... plural.

it can not be as some say that the angels were referenced in
Gen. 1:26 since that is not grammatically correct... purposely
changing the Word of God to suit a belief system designed by
reprobates.

no, it can not be that angels were involved in the creation of man.
the Bible says God formed man from the dust of the ground... not
angels. man is made by God in the image of God.. " and God ( Elohiym;
plural ) said Let Us ( plural ) make man in Our ( plural ) image
( singular ) " ... one God of one image. Gen. 1:26

when Moses said to the Israelites " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our
God is one Jehovah. " in Deu 6:4 he is saying " Jehovah
( singular ) our Elohiym ( plural ) is one ( united ) Jehovah.

no one has the ability of mind to fully comprehend how the Lord God
subsists as Three Divine Persons, ( Ps. 139 ) namely; Father, Son and
Holy Spirit. yet, in this Psalm David names to three distinct Persons
of the Godhead the acts of which are too wonderful and too high to
attain to... God is known through His Name and through His works.

( wonderfully, the word ' wonderful ' in this Psalm is one of the
names of the Lord Jesus Christ... the same word used by The Angel of
the LORD in Judges 13:18 )

the LORD God is completely ' other than ' ( Isa. 46:9,10 ) and not
ever to be likened to anything in the physical world. Ex. 20:1-6
He is as far from explanation as Light is from darkness.

yet, He makes Himself know to His people through the faith of Jesus
which otherwise remains unseen. while " No one has seen God at any
time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He
has declared Him." Joh. 1:18

the carnal world can not come to the knowledge of God being they are
not filled with His Holy Spirit... for only His sheep are granted to
hear the voice of the Good Shepherd calling them by name.. " I am
the Good Shepherd, and I know those that are Mine, and I am known by
those who are Mine. "; " they shall hear My voice " Joh. 10:14-16

for God has chosen the weak things of the world and revealed Himself
to babes, for His purpose is to " confound the wise " 1 Cor. 1:27

************************************************

the regenerate Christian admits he doesn't fully comprehend how God,
who accepted him in the Beloved by Sovereign grace, subsists as Three
Person's all of whom made themselves known by personal revelation to
him in the Holy Scripture by His indwelling Holy Spirit, as One God.
Joh.14:16,17

as the Psalmist writes... " [Such] knowledge is too wonderful for
me; It is [too] high, I cannot attain to it. "

by this same admission the regenerate Christian concludes that only
to the children of the One True God are given the faith of Jesus to
understand spiritual truth... such as the mystery of the Blessed
Trinity. Joh. 14:17

to the world this has not been given. ( Joh. 14:17 ) and never will
be given unless the Lord God gives him life and the faith of Jesus.

****************************************************

in the Day of Judgement all eyes will see but One God and on that
Day we will all see Jesus Christ, for Judgement is committed to Him...
" for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily "
( Col. 2:9 ) " "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in
Me. " ( Joh 14:11)

" I and the Father are one." Joh. 10:30

" And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation
of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. "
Heb 1:3

His Holy Spirit, completely ' other than ', has been given to God's
elect to Tabernacle with us forever, declaring Truth... that is,
Jesus, to the inner man.

" And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may be with you forever;

[that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it does not behold Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because
He abides with you, and will be in you. " Joh. 14:16,17

" And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son
into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Ga 4:6

Praise be to God !

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	25 Nov 2006 09:51:48 PM

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:52:06 -0800,
in article <12mi0aogn2tef73@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fine: We all know "us" refers to more than one person.

What "Us" does NOT mean is that "us" are the same being.
THAT is pagan mysticism...

do google for baal and 'triune god"

Jesus IS the Son of God... and
THAT STATEMENT _requires_ two persons -- Father, and Son.

How many times did Jesus say, "My Father?"
THAT STATEMENT requires two persons, "Son, and Father"

There is no way short of pure delusion that anyone can make the
statement "I am the Son of God" or "My Father" into
a) The Father is His own son, or
b) The Son is His own Father.

That kind of perversion is straight from hell.

Owd, you are a damned, and damnable heretic, for denying Jesus
Christ is God. You have no saving gospel, and you will burn
in the torments of eternal hell-fire for claiming Jesus is not
God. If you really did agree Jesus is God, then you wouldn't
keep attacking the doctrine of the trinity.
You try to re-define the word "God", when you apply it to
Christ, but when you do, you are not agreeing He is God, in
the same sense that God the Father is. If you did, then you
wouldn't attack the doctrine of the trinity.
As long as Owd attacks the doctrine of the trinity, He is
attacking the deity of Jesus Christ. He is saying that only
God the Father is really God. This is a damnable heresy that
will result in the eternal damnation of anyone who believes
it.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Michael Rhodes"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	25 Nov 2006 11:32:41 PM

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:51:48 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:52:06 -0800,
in article <12mi0aogn2tef73@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fine: We all know "us" refers to more than one person.

What "Us" does NOT mean is that "us" are the same being.
THAT is pagan mysticism...

do google for baal and 'triune god"

Jesus IS the Son of God... and
THAT STATEMENT _requires_ two persons -- Father, and Son.

How many times did Jesus say, "My Father?"
THAT STATEMENT requires two persons, "Son, and Father"

There is no way short of pure delusion that anyone can make the
statement "I am the Son of God" or "My Father" into
a) The Father is His own son, or
b) The Son is His own Father.

That kind of perversion is straight from hell.

John 17:1-3 MKJV
(1) Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and
said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son
also may glorify You,
(2) even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He
should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
(3) And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Isn't that what OWD said?

You try to re-define the word "God", when you apply it to
Christ, but when you do, you are not agreeing He is God, in
the same sense that God the Father is. If you did, then you
wouldn't attack the doctrine of the trinity.

How is he redefining "God"?

As long as Owd attacks the doctrine of the trinity, He is
attacking the deity of Jesus Christ. He is saying that only
God the Father is really God. This is a damnable heresy that
will result in the eternal damnation of anyone who believes
it.

How is he attacking the doctrine of the trinity? I've always have had
difficulty when I get into that 'oneness/trinity' argument. I get
mixed up sometimes.
I am not real sure of OWD's stance. Christ did not come so that a god
may be sacrificed, as if He were convenient to that end, but that all
show do the will of the Father, to know Him in Spirit. Forgiveness,
the chance to be as sons of God.
--
Michael
.

User: "oldwetdog"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 12:07:59 AM

Michael Rhodes wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:51:48 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:52:06 -0800,
in article <12mi0aogn2tef73@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fine: We all know "us" refers to more than one person.

What "Us" does NOT mean is that "us" are the same being.
THAT is pagan mysticism...

do google for baal and 'triune god"

Jesus IS the Son of God... and
THAT STATEMENT _requires_ two persons -- Father, and Son.

How many times did Jesus say, "My Father?"
THAT STATEMENT requires two persons, "Son, and Father"

There is no way short of pure delusion that anyone can make the
statement "I am the Son of God" or "My Father" into
a) The Father is His own son, or
b) The Son is His own Father.

That kind of perversion is straight from hell.

Randy, you know you will receive the judgment you give... so
between now and the time you face your Judge you might want to
reconsider the judgment and sentence you have just declared.

How is he redefining "God"?

How is he attacking the doctrine of the trinity? I've always have had
difficulty when I get into that 'oneness/trinity' argument. I get
mixed up sometimes.

I am not real sure of OWD's stance.

My "stance" is that God said exactly what He meant to say, and
means exactly what He said. period.

Christ did not come so that a god
may be sacrificed, as if He were convenient to that end, but that all
show do the will of the Father, to know Him in Spirit. Forgiveness,
the chance to be as sons of God.
--
Michael

All of Randy's accusations are based on a redefinition of my
statements:
Randy can not quote one statement which actually says what he
accuses me of...
Randy can not supply one link to any statement he condemns me for...
When Randy can not support his doctrine with Truth and Scripture
he looses his mental and emotional stability and reverts to
libel, ridicule and false accusation.
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 12:42:34 AM

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:07:59 -0800,
in article <12mibq22h3gvi1e@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:

Michael Rhodes wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:51:48 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:52:06 -0800,
in article <12mi0aogn2tef73@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fine: We all know "us" refers to more than one person.

What "Us" does NOT mean is that "us" are the same being.
THAT is pagan mysticism...

do google for baal and 'triune god"

Jesus IS the Son of God... and
THAT STATEMENT _requires_ two persons -- Father, and Son.

How many times did Jesus say, "My Father?"
THAT STATEMENT requires two persons, "Son, and Father"

There is no way short of pure delusion that anyone can make the
statement "I am the Son of God" or "My Father" into
a) The Father is His own son, or
b) The Son is His own Father.

That kind of perversion is straight from hell.

Randy, you know you will receive the judgment you give... so
between now and the time you face your Judge you might want to
reconsider the judgment and sentence you have just declared.

The word of God judges you, Owd:
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in
your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in
your sins.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto
you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he
said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM
hath sent me unto you.
That word for "God", there, Owd, in the OT, is Elohiym. Jesus
Christ is the "I AM" God who sent Moses to Israel.
You deny that Jesus Christ is this I AM God, therefore, you
will die in your sins. That's not my judgment, that's what
the Bible says.

How is he redefining "God"?

How is he attacking the doctrine of the trinity? I've always have had
difficulty when I get into that 'oneness/trinity' argument. I get
mixed up sometimes.

I am not real sure of OWD's stance.

My "stance" is that God said exactly what He meant to say, and
means exactly what He said. period.

What an ambiguous copout.

All of Randy's accusations are based on a redefinition of my
statements:

You are a liar.

Randy can not quote one statement which actually says what he
accuses me of...

--Just did, in a preceding post. You are just hoping to
deceive your way into a political escape from your own
heretical statements.

Randy can not supply one link to any statement he condemns me for...

--Just did, liar.

When Randy can not support his doctrine with Truth and Scripture
he looses his mental and emotional stability

Says Mr. paranoia himself. Do you ever fail to accuse people
of your own faults, Owd? Not that I'm aware.

and reverts to
libel, ridicule and false accusation.

Another vicarious confession by the fool who just finished
making half a dozen false accusations about me, such as that I
have never once provided a link that proves you actually claim
what I said you claim.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 12:35:18 AM

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 05:32:41 GMT,
in article <m89im2l599u27gumcrshiv08kot492d572@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:51:48 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:52:06 -0800,
in article <12mi0aogn2tef73@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fine: We all know "us" refers to more than one person.

What "Us" does NOT mean is that "us" are the same being.
THAT is pagan mysticism...

do google for baal and 'triune god"

Jesus IS the Son of God... and
THAT STATEMENT _requires_ two persons -- Father, and Son.

How many times did Jesus say, "My Father?"
THAT STATEMENT requires two persons, "Son, and Father"

There is no way short of pure delusion that anyone can make the
statement "I am the Son of God" or "My Father" into
a) The Father is His own son, or
b) The Son is His own Father.

That kind of perversion is straight from hell.

How is he redefining "God"?

See article:
12mac9thffv6957@corp.supernews.com
(http://tinyurl.com/y8pob3)
Here's the sophistry with which he tries to undermine the
meaning of the word "God", and confuse the deity of Christ
with sophistry:
*****************************************************
[Owd]

A severe problem with the discussion of God is the definition of
the term "God."

[And we see, right at the outset, he's going to try and mess
with the definition of the word "God"]

What do you mean when you say "God" in prayer. In your private
prayers, do you use the term "God" to mean "Kind of Being"? Or do
you use the term "God" in your prayers to mean the King of your
Soul, the Ruler of your life, The supreme Being of the Universe,
the Saviour who Loves you?

[Now, both above, and below, a good dose of confusion, to make
you think you don't know what the word God means, so he can
then try to re-define it for you].

If "God" means "Ruler," then there is only One, Jesus Christ.

If "God" means "Son," then there is only One Son of God The Father.

If "God" means "The Father," then there is only One, GOD THE FATHER.

If "God" means "Kind of Being" Then there is both Father and Son,
because the Son must share the Nature of His Father.

[And now that he thinks you're good and confuse, he will try
to undermine Christ's deity, by denying He is also God, in the
same sense God the Father is God]

Because Father and Son are both "God-BEING" but only One is
God-RULER, there is only one God.

[And there, by confusion and sophistry, Owd hopes to establish
the heresy that Jesus is not God, because "there is only One
"God-RULER".
*****************************************************
Make no mistake, as long as Owd attacks the trinity, he denies
Jesus is God. This is self evident, because all the doctrine
of the trinity is, basically, is the acknowledgement that God
is One, yet three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit. There was no need to go and get tangled up in Owd's
idiotic sophistry to prove this, since he continues attacking
the doctrine of the trinity, while acknowledging God is One.
Thus, he denies that Jesus Christ is God, in the same exact
sense that God the Father is God.

How is he attacking the doctrine of the trinity? I've always have had
difficulty when I get into that 'oneness/trinity' argument. I get
mixed up sometimes.

See this link:
http://tinyurl.com/txfp3

I am not real sure of OWD's stance.

And that is why you are questioning me, instead of Owd.

Christ is God.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath
given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true,
and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God, and eternal life.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Michael Rhodes"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 04:21:33 AM

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:35:18 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 05:32:41 GMT,
in article <m89im2l599u27gumcrshiv08kot492d572@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:51:48 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:52:06 -0800,
in article <12mi0aogn2tef73@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Now, both above, and below, a good dose of confusion, to make
you think you don't know what the word God means, so he can
then try to re-define it for you].

I'm a bit confused by both of you.

[And now that he thinks you're good and confuse, he will try
to undermine Christ's deity, by denying He is also God, in the
same sense God the Father is God]

Because Father and Son are both "God-BEING" but only One is
God-RULER, there is only one God.

[And there, by confusion and sophistry, Owd hopes to establish
the heresy that Jesus is not God, because "there is only One
"God-RULER".

Again, I provide the quote you ignore...
John 17:1-3 MKJV
(1) Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and
said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son
also may glorify You,
(2) even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He
should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
(3) And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
"... You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should
give eternal life." That is 'God-Ruler.' And that is by gift, not
presumption. The representation of God the Father by Christ the Son
is thorough; by will, by purpose. But the Son is not physically the
Father.
The reason that is important is because the separate beings is part of
the Gospel. Christ was obedient to the Father, whom He loved, unto
death. And this is the example He set for us, that we likewise should
be obedient. Doing that in love and faith, expecting to be rewarded
as obedient sons; and not as evil ones who did little more than
worshipped His death on the cross.
The messenger represents the sender, as did the prophets. Therefore
Son, who knows the Father personally, then even more so; completely,
with all the authority of the Father.
Mat 12:50 For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the
same is My brother and sister and mother.

*****************************************************

Make no mistake, as long as Owd attacks the trinity, he denies
Jesus is God. This is self evident, because all the doctrine
of the trinity is, basically, is the acknowledgement that God
is One, yet three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit. There was no need to go and get tangled up in Owd's
idiotic sophistry to prove this, since he continues attacking
the doctrine of the trinity, while acknowledging God is One.
Thus, he denies that Jesus Christ is God, in the same exact
sense that God the Father is God.

How is he attacking the doctrine of the trinity? I've always have had
difficulty when I get into that 'oneness/trinity' argument. I get
mixed up sometimes.

See this link:
http://tinyurl.com/txfp3

I am not real sure of OWD's stance.

And that is why you are questioning me, instead of Owd.

I question you because of your attitude, for it did not have
sufficient basis for such hate-filled judgement; like S.Winter.

Christ is God.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath
given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true,
and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God, and eternal life.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).

"Rely on this work alone..." ? That is a lie. One recieves eternal
life if they repent and are obedient to God. Examples...
John 15, fruitless (workless, useless) branches are cut off and thrown
into the fire.
Matthew 25, the parable of the talents. The single-talented servant,
who did know his master, but hid his talent and gained nothing in
return, so the evil, slothful (Christ's words) one was was cast into
hell.
ALL of our works are as fruit, that they be based on a
willing-to-sacrifice-for truth; that they not be in denial of the Son;
His works, and His Word. Paul, whom you quoted, is not the Son, he is
not God; and his words do not agree with the Son, who never used the
word 'grace', in the gospels, nor in the revelation to John.
Make no mistake. If God tells one to do something, but he does not do
it; even condemning his own conscience for its guilt, since it might
tell him he would, in effect, be depending on his own works, then he
has listened to a lie (if not THE LIE of the anti-Christ) and is
likely to be sent to his teeth-gnashing end.
--
Michael
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 06:54:32 AM

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:21:33 GMT,
in article <0ooim29osimieogqlpi42mmird65o1anjg@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

I question you because of your attitude, for it did not have
sufficient basis for such hate-filled judgement; like S.Winter.

It is not my judgment that those who deny Christ's deity will
die in their sins. It is the direct and plain statement of
Scripture, which I quoted:
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in
your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in
your sins.
Who, then, is Jesus?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto
you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he
said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM
hath sent me unto you.
Jesus Christ is the "I AM" (eternally self existent), Elohiym
God of the OT. If you deny He is "he", you will die in your
sins. That's not my judgment, that's the plain statement of
God's word.
Owd pretends to acknowledge that Jesus is God, yet he keeps
right on attacking the doctrine of the trinity. What does the
doctrine of the trinity claim? It simply acknowledges what
the Bible says, when it teaches that God is One God, yet that
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are also God, just as the
Father. Owd agrees God is One, so when he attacks the
doctrine of the trinity, he is attacking the fact that Jesus
Christ and the Holy Spirit are also God.
You cannot have a Savior, who is not God Himself, who is
qualified or capable of bearing infinite sins. Thus, to deny
the deity of Christ, as it is set forth in Scripture, is a
damnable heresy that will result in eternal damnation. If you
deny He is the God/Savior, you will die in your sins. Owd
attacks the doctrine of the trinity, therefore he attacks the
full deity of Jesus Christ.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Michael Rhodes"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 12:20:03 AM

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 06:54:32 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

That Christ existed before Abraham is not a big step for us. We are
past that. But it would be a heavy one for the pharisees, as He used
Abraham for basis of beginning, who was the beginning of Jewish
promise. He was in the middle of it then, and is now.
As I wrote in the previous reply, I do not believe this is a statement
of eternal existence, but one of union with God the Father. THAT we
must accept. Not His eternal existence, which He did not teach.
John 1:1... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God."
That verse explicitly states Christ had a beginning; a birth, in
effect. There is no beginning for an eternal existence.

Owd pretends to acknowledge that Jesus is God, yet he keeps
right on attacking the doctrine of the trinity. What does the
doctrine of the trinity claim? It simply acknowledges what
the Bible says, when it teaches that God is One God, yet that
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are also God, just as the
Father. Owd agrees God is One, so when he attacks the
doctrine of the trinity, he is attacking the fact that Jesus
Christ and the Holy Spirit are also God.

You cannot have a Savior, who is not God Himself, who is
qualified or capable of bearing infinite sins.

You can if God Himself has given Him that authority; and His substance
is so capable. God would know that. I don't think it is up to us to
determine His qualifications, to limit them arbitrarily because His
existence just might not be 'eternal', without beginning.

Thus, to deny
the deity of Christ, as it is set forth in Scripture, is a
damnable heresy that will result in eternal damnation. If you
deny He is the God/Savior, you will die in your sins. Owd
attacks the doctrine of the trinity, therefore he attacks the
full deity of Jesus Christ.

I think you might accuse me like you do OWD. But I do not deny Christ
His deity. Since God has given Him authority over all flesh then His
deity is not in question.
Mat 12:50 For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the
same is My brother and sister and mother.
Does not Christ place Himself with created man, AS SON, in subjection
to the Father, as if He were likewise created?
--
Michael
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 08:16:38 AM

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:20:03 GMT,
in article <dcvkm2dvf537a7clunfhbgteu9o5895fra@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

As I wrote in the previous reply, I do not believe this is a statement
of eternal existence, but one of union with God the Father. THAT we
must accept. Not His eternal existence, which He did not teach.

By claiming that Christ has not always existed, you are
denying His deity. God is eternal. If you are not eternal,
but only a created being, then you are not God. God doesn't
create other Gods. Christ has always existed, with God the
Father:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
Either Jesus Christ was created, at a point in time, or else
He is eternal. Since He made "all things", and without Him,
there "was not anything made that was made", that means Christ
is not a created being. If He exists, but was not created,
then that means He is eternal.
In whatever beginning you want to name, Christ was both "with"
God, and Christ "was" God. He is not a created being.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 07:30:14 PM

Randy wrote:

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:20:03 GMT,
in article <dcvkm2dvf537a7clunfhbgteu9o5895fra@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

By claiming that Christ has not always existed, you are
denying His deity.

===>YES, indeed.
He is as bad as the ancient Jews and some Christians were, who
denied the deity of the Roman emperors.
Naughty, naughty! -- L.
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 08:35:22 AM

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:20:03 GMT,
in article <dcvkm2dvf537a7clunfhbgteu9o5895fra@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

I think you might accuse me like you do OWD. But I do not deny Christ
His deity. Since God has given Him authority over all flesh then His
deity is not in question.

You are implying that Christ became God, at some point in
time, because God gave Him authority over all flesh. Thus,
you are re-defining the meaning of the word "God", so that it
means nothing more than delegated authority, when it refers to
Christ.
This denies the clearly stated fact that Christ is not a
created being, but was already God, in the same sense as God
the Father was God, in the beginning (John 1:1ff.).
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
This passage uses the same word for "God", throughout. Christ
is the creator, and nothing has been created, which He did not
create. He did not create Himself, and God the Father did not
create His divine essence. He already "was" "God" , and was
with "God" (same word), in the beginning.
Now, if it said in the beginning the word "became" God, and
also said all things "except himself" were created by him, and
without him was not any thing made that was made "except
himself", then you might have a point.
Jesus is eternal God, just as God the Father is eternal God.
God is an eternal being. You can't have someone who is
created becoming "God", at some point in time, for then they
do not possess the full attributes of God.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Michael Rhodes"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	28 Nov 2006 12:41:06 AM

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:35:22 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:20:03 GMT,
in article <dcvkm2dvf537a7clunfhbgteu9o5895fra@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

I think you might accuse me like you do OWD. But I do not deny Christ
His deity. Since God has given Him authority over all flesh then His
deity is not in question.

John 1 is pushy. It is not so clear.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.

You quote the KJV. None of the other versions I have (MKJV, RSV, ISV,
ASV) read v3 as "by Him", but "through Him." But I checked the Greek
(I AM NOT an authority). Apparently, the same Greek word is used in
both forms in the Bible, as 'by' or 'through.' The meaning of that
Greek word would not appear definitive, however. "By" does not mean
the same as "through".
Are KJV only?

This passage uses the same word for "God", throughout. Christ
is the creator, and nothing has been created, which He did not

It only makes clear that Christ was with the creator. And the
creation it MAY be referring to (not so explicitly, unfortunately) is
that one described in Genesis. If that were noted then the whole
passage would logically fall into place. Maybe John assumed we would
assume that, but the church has not. It is difficult to do so with
his, "was not anything made that was made."

create. He did not create Himself, and God the Father did not
create His divine essence. He already "was" "God" , and was
with "God" (same word), in the beginning.

Now, if it said in the beginning the word "became" God, and
also said all things "except himself" were created by him, and
without him was not any thing made that was made "except
himself", then you might have a point.

I assume "became", and see it a reasonable assumption.
It does not say all things were created by him.

Jesus is eternal God, just as God the Father is eternal God.
God is an eternal being. You can't have someone who is
created becoming "God", at some point in time, for then they
do not possess the full attributes of God.

They are God, if God says they are.
--
Michael
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 08:24:20 AM

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:20:03 GMT,
in article <dcvkm2dvf537a7clunfhbgteu9o5895fra@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

John 1:1... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God."

That verse explicitly states Christ had a beginning; a birth, in
effect.

No, it does not. It means that in whatever beginning you want
to name, Christ already "was" both "with" God, and "God". It
doesn't say in the beginning He "became" God. It says in the
beginning he "was" (already) God. The word "was", is in the
imperfect voice, which, when used with the verb "to be",
indicates the past tense.
This is also supported by the context:
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
Now if Christ made "all things", and "without him was not any
thing made that was made", that means Christ, in His divine
essence, was not created. Nothing has been created that He
did not create, and He couldn't have created Himself. Thus,
the context fully and clearly supports the interpretation that
Christ is eternal God.

There is no beginning for an eternal existence.

Which is why the fact that Christ already "was" (past tense)
God, in the "beginning", proves that He is eternal. He didn't
"become" God, in the "beginning". He already "was" God in the
beginning.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Michael Rhodes"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	28 Nov 2006 12:40:58 AM

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:24:20 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:20:03 GMT,
in article <dcvkm2dvf537a7clunfhbgteu9o5895fra@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

John 1:1... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God."

That verse explicitly states Christ had a beginning; a birth, in
effect.

No, not whatever beginning one would want to name. The topic of the
book is Christ. And I do not see the forceful logic you use on
tenses. Rephrased below..
'In the begining (of Christ), there WAS a birth, and the baby WAS with
God, and Christ WAS God...'
The WAS can force the reading to be as historical. An event happened
in the past.
It is straight-forward, and not a twist, nor a forceful application of
prejudice. I think too many have difficulty with John's dramatic
flair in his opening.

This is also supported by the context:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.

I agree with you on that one point. If one was going to build a
family, then the first thing they would do is build a home for it.
The home would be made first. Nevertheless, statements made by
Christ, as recorded by John, tend towards created. The _Father_; for
Him, by Him, because of Him, Christ did it. But to us the Father is
through Christ, His Son.
By Genesis, we know Christ was in on the construction of this
universe. I believe that's what John meant by 'all things'. All
things in this world.

Now if Christ made "all things", and "without him was not any

John 1:3 "All things came into being through Him..." does not say
Christ made all things.

thing made that was made", that means Christ, in His divine
essence, was not created. Nothing has been created that He
did not create, and He couldn't have created Himself. Thus,
the context fully and clearly supports the interpretation that
Christ is eternal God.

There is no beginning for an eternal existence.

There certainly was a beginning in John 1.

Which is why the fact that Christ already "was" (past tense)
God, in the "beginning", proves that He is eternal. He didn't
"become" God, in the "beginning". He already "was" God in the
beginning.

I am not a literary authority, but have some problem with John 1. It
reads as having something of a grandiose style, as overdone. That is
not the nature of the rest of his book.
John 1 is emotional, overly-forceful; in that it lacks a few logical
explanations that might try to explain his grand statements; beginning
with "In the beginning..." He seems to want to beat it into our
heads, in faith I assume, while I want to step back and say, "What do
you mean by that?" His statements demand explanation, while they are
not self-sufficient. And what he wrote in his book does not clarify
his beginning.
His gospel, which is one of the older writings, was written to
strongly impress Christ as God. And also possibly in hope that would
deflate some of Paul's standing, who was not in the begining with God.
John was worried about the anti-Christ.
--
Michael
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 08:12:45 AM

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:20:03 GMT,
in article <dcvkm2dvf537a7clunfhbgteu9o5895fra@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

Jesus didn't say before Abraham was, I was. That's what He
would have said if all He meant was that He were a created
being who existed before Abraham did. What He said was,
before Abraham was, "I am". The word "am", here, is in the
present, not the past tense. Thus, Christ said before Abraham
was, I kept on existing. This is a claim to eternal, self
existence.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 06:45:52 AM

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:21:33 GMT,
in article <0ooim29osimieogqlpi42mmird65o1anjg@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

The reason that is important is because the separate beings is part of
the Gospel. Christ was obedient to the Father, whom He loved, unto
death. And this is the example He set for us, that we likewise should
be obedient. Doing that in love and faith, expecting to be rewarded
as obedient sons; and not as evil ones who did little more than
worshipped His death on the cross.

Correct. The doctrine of the trinity does not deny that Jesus
Christ is a distinct person from God the Father. It simply
acknowledges that, while there is only One God, Jesus Christ
and the Holy Spirit are also God, in the same sense as God the
Father.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Michael Rhodes"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	26 Nov 2006 11:52:59 PM

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 06:45:52 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:21:33 GMT,
in article <0ooim29osimieogqlpi42mmird65o1anjg@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

The Son and the Holy Spirit are subject to the Father. Christ said He
would send the Comforter. I don't believe that is "in the same
sense," as you say. But on this point I don't think we have much
disagreement.
I've read your replies, and appreciate the way you concisely handled
them in debate. But will also warn you that I disagree on your
critical point. Christ's use of "I AM" is not a statement of eternal
existence, but of His authority as given Him by the Great I AM. It is
the latter which is of most importance to us; that we believe that.
--
Michael
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 02:21:40 PM

"Michael Rhodes" <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0fukm2tfsvhgndbb2omd88ms63pcftb6qm@4ax.com...

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 06:45:52 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:21:33 GMT,
in article <0ooim29osimieogqlpi42mmird65o1anjg@4ax.com>,
Michael Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote:

It's the difference between those who believe that Christ's "My Father
and I are one" means 'are the same in substance' and those who believe 'are
in agreement' only. Or those who believe God is 'one person in three'
(forms) and those who believe God is 'three persons in one'.
Personally I believe that Christ is both, fully God and fully man, and
not part of a hierarchy, and that Christ's 'Before Abraham was, I AM',
speaks indeed of "eternal existence". You have to be JW to believe
otherwise.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 02:33:39 PM

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:21:40 +0800,
in article <456b3e37$0$21097$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

Personally I believe that Christ is both, fully God and fully man, and
not part of a hierarchy, and that Christ's 'Before Abraham was, I AM',
speaks indeed of "eternal existence". You have to be JW to believe
otherwise.

Correct. Or an Arian.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Michael Rhodes"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quantifier ) Jehovah "	27 Nov 2006 10:22:20 PM

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:39 -0600, Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:21:40 +0800,
in article <456b3e37$0$21097$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

Correct. Or an Arian.

Hierarchal, though not argumentative; in complete agreement.
John 5:30 "I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and
My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will
of the Father who has sent Me."
--
Michael
.

User: "Randy"
Title: Re: Deut. 6:4... " Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah ( singular ) our God ( plural ) is one ( united quanti