On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:19:45 -0700, oldwetdog
<g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> spake thusly:

Pastor Dave wrote:

Did anyone in the first century see some strange signs
before the end of their generation? Of course! The
writings of two (maybe more) ancient, non-Christian
historians seem to record such an incident.

Dave, can you show us the graves of Gog and Magaog?

The ridiculousness of your response proves my point
about Futurists. Ignoring my post and pretending that
a diversion tactic actually addresses the point, is what
Futurists do. And as for Gog and MaGog, I have gone
over that with you more than once.

Tell me, which of the following eyewitnesses do you dispute?

The Jewish historian Josephus wrote before the destruction
of Jerusalem (66 AD), "A certain prodigious and incredible
phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would
seem to be a fable, were it not related by those who saw it
of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for,
before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their
armour were seen running about among the clouds, and
surrounding the cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call
Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner
[court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their
sacred ministrations, they said, that in the first place they
felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they
heard a sound of multitude, saying, 'Let us remove hence"
(Josephus' Wars of the Jews VI.V.3, read the whole Book VI
especially in chapter V).

The Roman historian Tacitus relates a very similar event of
the destruction of Jerusalem, "Early in this year [70 AD]
Titus Caesar, who had been selected by his father [Vespasian]
to complete the subjugation of Judaea, ...At last he encamped
near Jerusalem. As I [Tacitus] am about to relate the last days
of a famous city, ...Prodigies had occurred, ...There had been
seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms,
the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds.
The doors of the inner shrine [temple] were suddenly thrown open,
and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the
gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir
as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events,
but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient
records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at
this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers,
coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire"
(Tacitus, The Histories, Book V). You decide for yourself
what you think about this.
Christ came in the first century. Of that, there is no doubt and
there was none amongst those who were there. The Christian
Jews fled to Pella, just as Jesus warned them to do and when
the Roman shots started coming over the wall, the Jews in the
city cried out, "The Son cometh!". Now why do you think that is?
I guess according to you, those who were there and whom Jesus
spoke to, knew less about it than you do, Glenn, even though
He told them it would happen within their generation (Mat 24:34).
I guess the whole world had to wait for almost 2,000 years, for
you to explain it to them, Glenn. After all, Jesus wasn't really
talking to them. According to you, He was actually ignoring
them and talking to you! How special you are, Glenn!

Why did the following happen (part of which is listed above),
at the Roman conquering of Jerusalem?

Heavenly phenomena:

- A star resembling a sword
- A comet (Halley's Comet)
- A bright light shining around the altar and
the temple
- A vision of chariots and soldiers running around
among the clouds and all cities of Palestine.

Earthly phenomena (reported by priests)

- A quaking
- A great noise
- The sounds of a great multitude saying,
"Let us remove hence."

Gee, one would think that the priests and Josephus and Titus
and the rest, were giving testimony FOR Christ! In reality of
course, they were NOT believers, so what would be the reason
for them to say such things and record these events, when they
support Christ fulfilling His word and they either hated Him,
or simply did not believe in Him?

Note above that Titus said that the heavenly host was indeed,
"joining battle". But contrary to what the Futurists claim, it
would not be to SAVE Jerusalem, but rather, they joined
forces with the Romans, to DESTROY the Temple and the
city, just as Zech 14:1-2 actually says! And as Daniel said,
"the people of the Prince" had come! That's why they cried
out, "The Son cometh!". It wasn't because they thought He
was coming to save them. :)

Futurists love to claim that Daniel's 70th week is still in the
future, but the reality is, if we examine the text, it simply
cannot be that Christ was crucified at the end of the 69th
week, because it actually says that He was anointed at the
end of the 69th week! Thus, the Futurists have Him being
anointed and crucified on the same day! (:

The "people of the prince" is not the army of some "AntiChrist".
God has always used nations to show His judgment on a
given nation, just as He did with Egypt, when He sent Assyria
in (see further down). They were God's instrument of judgment
at that point and so was Babylon, when it took Jerusalem and
God said clearly that HE HIMSELF raised up Nebuchadnezzar!

And what would be the reason for these things to happen,
if it wasn't Christ returning? Especially given that even the
non-believing Jews seemed to recognize that it was Him
returning ("The Son cometh!")? Why is that Glenn? Can
you explain this to us, please?

The fact is, Jesus never spoke of a physical, bodily return.
He spoke of a "coming in the clouds". Now since we know
that Christ is God and that it was Christ out there speaking
to the people in the Old Testament days. He would have
used the same language that He always did, like when He
spoke of "riding a swift cloud", in the FULFILLED PROPHECY
regarding the time that God used the Assyrians to judge
Egypt. God is not the author of confusion and would not
have suddenly reversed the way He spoke to His people.
"The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord RIDES ON
A SWIFT CLOUD, and will COME into Egypt; The idols
of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt
will melt in its midst." - Isaiah 19:1

Now you can pretend all you want to. But the fact is, that
no one actually saw Jesus ascend.
Acts 1:9-11 states clearly
that a cloud "received Him out of their sight". So if you want
to use the "He will return in like manner (in the same way)"
line, then He must have returned "out of their sight". And
thus, no one saw Him bodily, when He returned either.

Christ surely came in the first century and there is nowhere in
the NT that mentions two comings of Christ, one in the first
century generation and another one in the future.
So it is YOU, Glenn, who has a LOT of explaining to do!