| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
18 Jun 2007 11:57:24 AM |
| Object: |
Did Jesus Fail? |
Dispensationalists believe that Jesus failed.
Now I believe God's word, in which He says that His word
would not come back void. Yet the Dispensationalist belief
says that Jesus came to set up an earthly kingdom and that
the people rejected Him and He was crucified and so, the
earthly kingdom was postponed.
They will deny that they believe this, but it is what they
believe and when cornered, it always comes out! (:
First of course, they try to claim that, "God in His
foreknowledge, knew that this would happen".
But that still doesn't solve the problem, because
the fact is, if He came to set up an Earthly Kingdom
and God knew He would be rejected, He still failed,
since they claim His purpose was to set up and
Earthly kingdom.
How can you say that Jesus came to set up an Earthly
kingdom, which didn't happen and then say that He
didn't fail?! Huh?!? If the purpose was to set up an
Earthly kingdom, then that was the purpose! God
knowing it would fail, still means that He sent His
Son into a no win mission!
So I ask, what about the prophecies that Jesus would
be crucified? Don't they show that setting up an
Earthly kingdom was *not* His mission, but rather,
that it was indeed to be crucified? Doesn't the Bible,
right from Genesis, tell us that this is so? Does God's
word fail to come to pass? If God said, as they claim,
that Jesus' mission was to set up an Earthly kingdom
when He came the first time, then how could God's
word fail to work? Doesn't He say, "My word shall
not come back void."?
The truth is, *nowhere* does the Bible say that Jesus'
mission His first time on Earth, was to set up an
Earthly kingdom! In fact, nowhere does Jesus say this!
Therefore, it is nothing more than THEIR IMAGINATION
that claims this!
In Isaiah and in Psalms and in other places, it says clearly
that Christ would die! So how could Christ have come to
set up an earthly kingdom and not get it done, when in
reality, He came to die?!?
It seems to ne that Dispensationalism contradicts
the Scriptures!!!
"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked
have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."
- Psalm 22:16
Mark 8:31-33
31) And he began to teach them, that the Son of man
must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders,
and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and
after three days rise again.
32) And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him,
and began to rebuke him.
33) But when he had turned about and looked on his
disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me,
Satan: for thou savorest not the things that be of God,
but the things that be of men.
Now why would He teach them this, if His mission was to
set up an Earthly kingdom, which *IS* what they believe?!
It seems to me that they are just as much Satan, as Peter was,
for saying what He said and they say the same thing today!!!
Jesus rebuked Peter for claiming that He should stick around
and be their Earthly King, which is what they figured He
would do, just like the Dispensationalists think will happen!
So why don't the Dispy's rebuke themselves, for thinking
that was His mission, when Jesus rebuked Peter for
thinking that he should defend an Earthly king?
Acts 17:2-3
2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them,
and three sabbath days reasoned with them OUT OF
THE SCRIPTURES,
3) Opening and alleging, that Christ MUST NEEDS
HAVE SUFFERED, and risen again from the dead;
and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
The Futurist/Dispensationalist view is defeated, by its claim
that Christ was defeated. It is not a Lord that they worship,
but a defeated man, who could not accomplish what He
came to do and it is a defeated God that they worship,
who could not send His word forth, so that it would not
come back void!
According to them, God's word was to set up an earthly
nation of Israel again and to be enthroned king on Earth
and He failed to do this, which places God at the mercy
of man's decisions, instead of the other way around!
When I say to them that their belief is based on what Darby
preached, which is that Jesus came to set up an earthly
kingdom, but that He failed and so, it was postponed,
they claim that I am wrong and that their beliefs were
not based on that idea.
Yet, here they are, when cornered, confessing that their
belief is indeed based on the idea that Jesus came to set
up an earthly kingdom and failed to do so and so it was
postponed! And I can quote such admissions from
people right here in these news groups! People you know,
that you consider to be right in their doctrines!
But to them and to you, Jesus came not to redeem man
spiritually, but to redeem some dirt. (:
So no, I don't accept the claim that "He didn't fail. It was
the people who failed to accept Him". That's a load of crap!
Either God's word cannot come back void, or God is a liar!
And THEY claim that His word states that Christ was supposed
to come and set up an earthly kingdom, but now say that
the people rejected Him and so it was postponed, thereby
by default claiming that God's word came back void,
while ignoring the prophecies of Christ's crucifixion and
on top of that, proving themselves liars when they claim
not to believe what Darby preached about this, when we
all know that's where this garbage came from! (:
Shame, shame, shame on them and their Dispensational
cronies, people!!! (:
Here are the facts:
1) God said His word would not come back void.
God accomplishes all that he sets out to do.
Both of these ideas are very Biblical, as you know!
2) They claim that He came to do it and that it didn't happen!
That means that God sent His Son to do this and that
IT FAILED!!! Therefore, God's word came back void,
according to them!!!
3) The Scriptures say Jesus came to suffer and die. They say
that He came to live a life and set up an earthly kingdom
and failed and so, it was postponed.
You decide folks. Whom do you believe? Jesus Christ?
Or the Dispensationalists, which is pretty much all Futurists?
And let us ask ourselves, how could Jesus set up an Earthly
kingdom? How could He possibly have done this, when He
would have simply grown old and eventually died, since had
He succeeded, He would still have been in a normal human
body! So they worship a man who came to redeem some
dirt and who would have sat on a throne, grown old and
died naturally!
People, they don't even think about what their belief means!
And that's because they're too concerned with making it all
about them, on Earth, because they're afraid to die! The
blessing in Heaven are not good enough for them! They
even want God to move out of Heaven and come here
to live! WHAT?!?!?!?! (:
Luke 17:20-21
20) Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when
the kingdom of God would come, He answered them
and said; The kingdom of God does NOT come with
observation;
21) Nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’
For indeed, the kingdom of God is WITHIN you.
Note that Jesus said the following:
The word "observation" is translated from a Greek word.
Parateresis - Inspection, that is, ocular evidence
Ocular = Of or relating to the eye; the sense of sight.
So let's compare what Jesus said, to what the Futurist
doctrine claims.
Jesus: The Kingdom of God does *NOT* come with observation
(seeing by the human eye).
Futurism: The Kingdom of God *WILL* come with observation
(seeing by the human eye).
Jesus: They will *NOT* be able to point at it and say,
"Look! There it is!".
Futurism: They *WILL* be able to point at it and say,
"Look! There it is!".
Hmmmm.... That doesn't seem to me to be an accurate
assessment of what the Bible says, on the part of the
Futurists. And yet, they keep claiming that what they're
saying, "is in the Bible". Does that seem right to you?
It seems ot me that Jesus repeatedly said that He didn't
come to set up an earthly kingdom and yet, the Futurists/
Dispensationalists repeatedly claim that He did and that
He failed and so, was crucified.
Thus, the crucifixion, which is the central point of our
faith...
"For I determined not to know any thing among you,
save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2
....to them, is not the center of our faith, but rather,
has become a consolation prize. What a shame. (:
You know, maybe this post will sound mean to some,
but I guess I just can't understand how anyone could
look at our Lord on the cross, paying for our sins with
His blood, as a consolation prize. Something that
happened because He failed. (:
And one more thing... How can they claim that,
"Jesus is the Lord of my life!", when they don't
even believe that He accomplished what He came
to do?!?
"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed
for many for the remission of sins." - Matthew 26:28
"Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say?
Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause
came I unto this hour." - John 12:27
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than
the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with
glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should
taste death for every man. Forasmuch then as the
children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also
himself likewise took part of the same; that through
death he might destroy him that had the power of
death, that is, the devil" - Hebrews 2:9,14a
Let us note that Jesus NEVER, EVER taught a physical
Kingdom of God on Earth, that people could see with
the eye and point at and say, "Look! There it is!".
NEVER AND NOT ONCE!
So when any Futurist, preaching this "national Israel
is God's people" doctrine claims that what they read
elsewhere in the Scriptures proves their claim, they
are really saying that Jesus was wrong and they are
pitting the Bible against itself! (:
So you decide. Did Jesus succeed? Or did He fail?
You cannot believe that He succeeded, if you believe
that His mission was to set up an Earthly kingdom
and He failed. And that is one of the core beliefs
within Dispensationalism! You don't get to change
that and still claim to believe in it!
DECIDE!!!
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
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| User: "®andy" |
|
| Title: Re: Did Jesus Fail? |
18 Jun 2007 12:06:17 PM |
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:57:24 -0400,
in article <eaed73lpsdr2lburu3p77kh3ogsiejrjm4@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
Dispensationalists believe that Jesus failed.
No, Dave has to settle for a kingdom of God that fails to end
sin, sorrow, sadness, or death on this earth, so he can
pretend like preterism is what the Bible teaches.
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 17:17:44 GMT,
in article <936752pifvq3vqvrrq2gihlpv05dghudvv@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
*****************************************************************
We must get involved in making the world a
better place (not just physically, but spiritually
and culturally). What else could "seek His Kingdom
and His righteousness first" mean? Rev. 21 and 22
pick up on that theme of the "healing waters"
and show how we now have that process going on.
You and I are a part of that process. Rev. 21 and 22
show that the "nations bring their wealth into
the Kingdom" and are "healed by the leaves of
the Tree of Life". Life goes on. The world doesn't
end. But it is healed and brings its cultural and
spiritual wealth into the church...
Now, Revelation 22:14 clearly teaches that through
obeying His commandments (1 John 3:22-23), men
would have right to the tree of life and enter into
the gates of the city. In other words, through faith
in Jesus Christ, we enter into the gates of the city.
Well, if all was done and the city came, only to have
all the elect in heaven and everyone else separated
from God, then who are these coming into our
perfect city, and from where are they coming?
Well, the answer is in verse 15. This describes
those who are outside the city. This seems to
describe the natural man, does it not? Not only
this, but this is very similar to what we already
observed.
If this is the New Heaven and the New Earth,
and everything is supposed to be perfect as the
literalist affirms, and there is no more death
or disease or sorrow, then why would there need
to be a river for the healing of nations? If the
nations were perfect and all was well in this perfect
physical planet, then why in the "world" would there
need to be healing? Because that is the purpose of
the Gospel. To heal the sin sick soul. The Gospel is
Christ, the river of life flowing through the saved
body of Christ (the church) toward the lost and
dying world reaching only those in whom God
intended the Gospel to prosper (Ephesians 5:26).
*****************************************************************
--
The God of peace be with you all. Amen. - Romans 15:33
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: Did Jesus Fail? |
19 Jun 2007 01:13:22 AM |
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:06:17 -0500, ®andy wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:57:24 -0400,
in article <eaed73lpsdr2lburu3p77kh3ogsiejrjm4@4ax.com>, Pastor Dave
<noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
Dispensationalists believe that Jesus failed.
No, Dave has to settle for a kingdom of God that fails to end sin,
sorrow, sadness, or death on this earth, so he can pretend like
preterism is what the Bible teaches.
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 17:17:44 GMT,
in article <936752pifvq3vqvrrq2gihlpv05dghudvv@4ax.com>, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
***************************************************************** We
must get involved in making the world a better place (not just
physically, but spiritually and culturally). What else could "seek His
Kingdom and His righteousness first" mean? Rev. 21 and 22 pick up on
that theme of the "healing waters" and show how we now have that process
going on. You and I are a part of that process. Rev. 21 and 22 show
that the "nations bring their wealth into the Kingdom" and are "healed
by the leaves of the Tree of Life". Life goes on. The world doesn't
end. But it is healed and brings its cultural and spiritual wealth into
the church...
Now, Revelation 22:14 clearly teaches that through obeying His
commandments (1 John 3:22-23), men would have right to the tree of life
and enter into the gates of the city. In other words, through faith in
Jesus Christ, we enter into the gates of the city. Well, if all was done
and the city came, only to have all the elect in heaven and everyone
else separated from God, then who are these coming into our perfect
city, and from where are they coming? Well, the answer is in verse 15.
This describes those who are outside the city. This seems to describe
the natural man, does it not? Not only this, but this is very similar
to what we already observed.
If this is the New Heaven and the New Earth,
and everything is supposed to be perfect as the literalist affirms, and
there is no more death or disease or sorrow, then why would there need
to be a river for the healing of nations? If the nations were perfect
and all was well in this perfect physical planet, then why in the
"world" would there need to be healing? Because that is the purpose of
the Gospel. To heal the sin sick soul. The Gospel is Christ, the river
of life flowing through the saved body of Christ (the church) toward the
lost and dying world reaching only those in whom God intended the Gospel
to prosper (Ephesians 5:26).
*****************************************************************
It could be that both positions are limited in their ability to explain
the Scriptures. Just to throw in a thought or two. What if neither time
nor scriptures are linear as to cause and effect, but rather
multidimensional. In our physical bodies, we are three dimensional, but
through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, our spirits can discern beyond
this carnal three dimensional life into the eternal.
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