| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"generic" |
| Date: |
09 Jan 2006 01:20:41 PM |
| Object: |
Did Jesus Fulfill the Prophecies? |
Did Jesus fulfill the prophecies, or did the gospel writers just scrounge
the jewish bible for source material?
How would one tell the difference, anyway? From one point-of-view, one
might say that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. From another point-of-view,
one might say that the jewish scriptures were literary sources.
Well, I don't know, but I was struck by Amos 8. 9 which says the sun will
set at noon, and the earth will be darkened on a sunny day. If one takes the
source point-of-view, it seems almost certain that this is the source for
Mk.15.33. What's even more remarkable is that Amos 9.10, which refers to
mourning for an only child, could be the source for Mk 15. 34,37-38. And
that's not all. Amos 9.10 also refers to "a bitter day," which could explain
the "vinegar on a sponge" of Mk 15.36. And that's not all. Amos 8.8 which
suggests an earthquake, could be looked at as the source for Mt. 27.51-52,
which refers to an earthquake. On the other hand, if Jesus fulfilled these
prophecies, the part about everyone putting on sackcloth was not fulfilled.
If one regards the texts of Amos as sources, this part was omitted.
So, are they sources or prophecies? Well, if they were prophecies, Jesus
did not fulfill any of them. He didn't do anything. However, if the vinegar
proffered to Jesus on the cross was supposed to fulfill the prophecy of "a
bitter day," it seems to me to be difficult to swallow.
So my impression is that the gospel writers were scrounging around in the
jewish scriptures. But since I haven't come up with a rule for
distinguishing fulfillment of prophecy from literary reworking of source
materials, how would I know? How could one tell?
.
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Did Jesus Fulfill the Prophecies? |
09 Jan 2006 06:38:00 PM |
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"generic" <generic@brandnew.bag> wrote in message
news:11s5dsr336lt79c@corp.supernews.com...
Did Jesus fulfill the prophecies, or did the gospel writers just
scrounge the jewish bible for source material?
< CLIP >
The question isn't whether or not Jesus fulfilled petty prophecies. The
question is whether Jesus was the messiah.
Ordinarily the word "messiah" referred to a king of Israel or Judah.
Sometimes it referred to the high priest or to a prophet. The "messianic
expectation" in the first century was for a king who would restore the
kingdoms of Judah and Israel. This was based upon a series of Old Testament
prophecies such as those below:
Jeremiah
23:5 "I, the Lord, promise that a new time will certainly come
when I will raise up for them a righteous descendant of David.
He will rule over them with wisdom and understanding
and will do what is just and right in the land.
23:6 Under his rule Judah will enjoy safety
and Israel will live in security.
Ezekiel
34:22 So I will save my sheep; they will no longer be prey.
I will judge between one sheep and another. 34:23 I will
place one shepherd over them, and he will feed them-
namely, my servant David.7 He will feed them and will be
their shepherd.
In Luke 1 the angel tells Mary that her son will sit on the throne of David
and reign over the house of Jacob.
Luke 1
1:31 Listen: You will become pregnant and give birth to
a son, and you will name him Jesus. 1:32 He will be great,
and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord
God will give him the throne of his father David. 1:33 He
will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom
will never end.
However, Jesus never became king of Israel, and never sat on the throne of
David. Therefore, he cannot have been the messiah.
--Wax
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| User: "70AD" |
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| Title: Re: Did Jesus Fulfill the Prophecies? |
09 Jan 2006 02:47:36 PM |
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On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:20:41 -0600, "generic"
<generic@brandnew.bag> spake thusly:
Did Jesus fulfill the prophecies, or did the gospel writers just scrounge
the jewish bible for source material?
How would one tell the difference, anyway? From one point-of-view, one
might say that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. From another point-of-view,
one might say that the jewish scriptures were literary sources.
Well, I don't know, but I was struck by Amos 8. 9 which says the sun will
set at noon, and the earth will be darkened on a sunny day. If one takes the
source point-of-view, it seems almost certain that this is the source for
Mk.15.33. What's even more remarkable is that Amos 9.10, which refers to
mourning for an only child, could be the source for Mk 15. 34,37-38. And
that's not all. Amos 9.10 also refers to "a bitter day," which could explain
the "vinegar on a sponge" of Mk 15.36. And that's not all. Amos 8.8 which
suggests an earthquake, could be looked at as the source for Mt. 27.51-52,
which refers to an earthquake. On the other hand, if Jesus fulfilled these
prophecies, the part about everyone putting on sackcloth was not fulfilled.
If one regards the texts of Amos as sources, this part was omitted.
So, are they sources or prophecies? Well, if they were prophecies, Jesus
did not fulfill any of them. He didn't do anything. However, if the vinegar
proffered to Jesus on the cross was supposed to fulfill the prophecy of "a
bitter day," it seems to me to be difficult to swallow.
So my impression is that the gospel writers were scrounging around in the
jewish scriptures. But since I haven't come up with a rule for
distinguishing fulfillment of prophecy from literary reworking of source
materials, how would I know? How could one tell?
Let me just start you in a direction, with a thought.
A word is limited by it's context. Who is "everyone"?
And who is "all"?
If we were on a loading dock and I asked you to move
ALL of the boxes, would you try to move every box on
Earth? Or just on the loading dock? I did say ALL,
did I not?
Who is everyone? Everyone in the world? How?
Not everyone in the world was involved in this event,
or even knew about it. Is it even "everyone" that was
there? Why would it be? Or could it be everyone who
would mourn Him?
Just a thought. :)
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
The Bible says that death came by sin and sin came
by Adam (Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:21-22).
Evolution says lots of things lived and died before
Adam and Eve got here and therefore attempts to rule
out what the Bible says.
One or the other is right, but they can't both
be right.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Did Jesus Fulfill the Prophecies? |
09 Jan 2006 04:38:57 PM |
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generic wrote:
Did Jesus fulfill the prophecies, or did the gospel writers just scrounge
the jewish bible for source material?
How would one tell the difference, anyway? From one point-of-view, one
might say that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. From another point-of-view,
one might say that the jewish scriptures were literary sources.
Well, I don't know, but I was struck by Amos 8. 9 which says the sun will
set at noon, and the earth will be darkened on a sunny day. If one takes the
source point-of-view, it seems almost certain that this is the source for
Mk.15.33. What's even more remarkable is that Amos 9.10, which refers to
mourning for an only child, could be the source for Mk 15. 34,37-38. And
that's not all. Amos 9.10 also refers to "a bitter day," which could explain
the "vinegar on a sponge" of Mk 15.36. And that's not all. Amos 8.8 which
suggests an earthquake, could be looked at as the source for Mt. 27.51-52,
which refers to an earthquake. On the other hand, if Jesus fulfilled these
prophecies, the part about everyone putting on sackcloth was not fulfilled.
If one regards the texts of Amos as sources, this part was omitted.
So, are they sources or prophecies? Well, if they were prophecies, Jesus
did not fulfill any of them. He didn't do anything. However, if the vinegar
proffered to Jesus on the cross was supposed to fulfill the prophecy of "a
bitter day," it seems to me to be difficult to swallow.
So my impression is that the gospel writers were scrounging around in the
jewish scriptures. But since I haven't come up with a rule for
distinguishing fulfillment of prophecy from literary reworking of source
materials, how would I know? How could one tell?
===>You are on the right track.
There's really not one single "fulfilled" prophecy in the Bible.
At best some retroactive "predictions", if you know what I mean,
and mostly ones twisted to sound like they refer to some real
historical event.
Oh, and let's not forget those that are not even "prophecies",
such as the curse on Talking Snake pronounced by YHWH
ELOHIM, interpreted as referring to a "savior". -- L.
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