| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
02 Aug 2004 03:48:57 PM |
| Object: |
DID JESUS LIE??? |
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental
collision, then the appearance of organic life on this
planet was also an accident and the whole evolution of
man was an accident too. If so, then all our thought
processes are mere accidents - the accidental
by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds
for the materialists' and astronomers' as well as for
anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., of
materialism and astronomy - are merely accidental
by-products, why should we believe them to be true?
I see no reason for believing that one accident
should be able to give a correct account of all
the other accidents." - C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
|
| User: "Paul Rivera" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
03 Aug 2004 01:33:36 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v3atg01ugafs7dvaqurcpmn27eh9er58hr@4ax.com...
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
After Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple, they asked Him for
a sign of His authority to do that which He did. His answer to them was that
He would raise up THIS TEMPLE in three days, after they destroy it. Neither
His immediate audience, nor His own disciples understood what He meant by
THIS TEMPLE at the time that He said it.
John 2:19-22 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and
in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years
was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he
spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead,
his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed
the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Only after His resurrection was the TEMPLE reference understood as having a
hidden meaning and referring to His body. When speaking in public, Christ
often spoke in parables, and explained to His apostles that He did so
because it was not meant for the general public to know the mysteries
(hidden things) of the Kingdom of Heaven. If Christ used parables to hide
secrets from certain persons, then what secret thing was He hiding in the
parable of the fig tree, which proceeds in all three accounts the
preterist's foundational verse, "This generation shall not pass away, till
all be fulfilled."
On the one hand, the preterist insists that Christ is being literal, even
after publicly exclaiming that He is about to speak a parable, yet on the
other hand, and in the exact same discourse, they insist that He is being
figurative about coming in the clouds.
The apostles started off asking, "what shall be the sign of thy coming". If
we understand "this generation" to mean His audience, then where is Christ
today? Or, is the preterist position that His Coming is also figurative?
Had the following occurred by 70AD; "this gospel of the kingdom shall be
preached in all the world" ???
When has this occurred, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds" ???
Interesting how that the preterist views all of the above as being fulfilled
only figuratively while the one passage that defines their stance is the
only one spoken after Christ public announces He is about to speak a
parable.
For anyone that may be persuaded by this preterist position, consider those
money changers outside of the Temple, and look beyond what they could only
understand in the flesh. Consider well Christ's warning about those who
point to Him as being either here or there. Christ's second coming will be
as visible as lightning in the sky. The preterist's implicit position then
is that Christ lied about the audible sounds, visual sights, and angelic
actions concerning His coming.
For the preterist, who is fond of saying, "did Christ lie when He said THIS
GENERATION", I ask you, did Christ lie when He said "THIS TEMPLE" ??? While
the most stubborn of you will dismiss the argument outright, my hope is that
some of you will rethink the entire concept of when Christ is being cryptic,
and when He is not.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nobody special" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
03 Aug 2004 10:00:53 PM |
|
|
"Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:4lGPc.28669$DZ.2988716@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v3atg01ugafs7dvaqurcpmn27eh9er58hr@4ax.com...
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
After Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple, they asked Him
for
a sign of His authority to do that which He did. His answer to them was
that
He would raise up THIS TEMPLE in three days, after they destroy it.
Neither
His immediate audience, nor His own disciples understood what He meant by
THIS TEMPLE at the time that He said it.
John 2:19-22 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and
in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years
was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But
he
spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the
dead,
his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they
believed
the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Only after His resurrection was the TEMPLE reference understood as having
a
hidden meaning and referring to His body. When speaking in public, Christ
often spoke in parables, and explained to His apostles that He did so
because it was not meant for the general public to know the mysteries
(hidden things) of the Kingdom of Heaven. If Christ used parables to hide
secrets from certain persons, then what secret thing was He hiding in the
parable of the fig tree, which proceeds in all three accounts the
preterist's foundational verse, "This generation shall not pass away, till
all be fulfilled."
=========================
One popular view is that the fig tree refers to a reborn Israel as
had been promised many times by O.T. prophets. This would
mark the end of the "times of the gentiles" and the beginning
of the last days. Most adherents to this view set that date to
1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem.
This makes sense giving that the fig tree symbol had been
used in O.T. prophecy for that very meaning.
Accept this and the "this generation" conundrum disappears.
Hos. 9:10 (KJV) "I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I
saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her time".....
Joel 1:7 (KJV) "He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my
fig tree; he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away".......
Jer. 24:5 (KJV) "Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel; Like
these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried
away captive of Judah"......
nobody special
========================
On the one hand, the preterist insists that Christ is being literal, even
after publicly exclaiming that He is about to speak a parable, yet on the
other hand, and in the exact same discourse, they insist that He is being
figurative about coming in the clouds.
The apostles started off asking, "what shall be the sign of thy coming".
If
we understand "this generation" to mean His audience, then where is Christ
today? Or, is the preterist position that His Coming is also figurative?
Had the following occurred by 70AD; "this gospel of the kingdom shall be
preached in all the world" ???
When has this occurred, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds" ???
Interesting how that the preterist views all of the above as being
fulfilled
only figuratively while the one passage that defines their stance is the
only one spoken after Christ public announces He is about to speak a
parable.
For anyone that may be persuaded by this preterist position, consider
those
money changers outside of the Temple, and look beyond what they could only
understand in the flesh. Consider well Christ's warning about those who
point to Him as being either here or there. Christ's second coming will be
as visible as lightning in the sky. The preterist's implicit position then
is that Christ lied about the audible sounds, visual sights, and angelic
actions concerning His coming.
For the preterist, who is fond of saying, "did Christ lie when He said
THIS
GENERATION", I ask you, did Christ lie when He said "THIS TEMPLE" ???
While
the most stubborn of you will dismiss the argument outright, my hope is
that
some of you will rethink the entire concept of when Christ is being
cryptic,
and when He is not.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
05 Aug 2004 08:51:24 AM |
|
|
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:00:53 GMT, "Nobody special"
<geneodell@comcast.net> screamed out:
=========================
One popular view is that the fig tree refers to a reborn Israel as
had been promised many times by O.T. prophets. This would
mark the end of the "times of the gentiles" and the beginning
of the last days. Most adherents to this view set that date to
1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem.
This makes sense giving that the fig tree symbol had been
used in O.T. prophecy for that very meaning.
Accept this and the "this generation" conundrum disappears.
Let's face it. This date was moved, when end times
calculations didn't work out for 1948, when they became
a nation again. Isn't it funny, how no one wants to
admit that the generation Jesus was talking about was
in His day and meant that the events would have taken
place within 40 years, yet, these end timers calculate
40 years from the date they think means Israel and the
fig tree event occurring, which would be a Biblical
generation? :) Obviously, from 1948, it didn't work
out. So in comes the excuse and now we need to
calculate from 1967, putting us at 2007. And when that
passes, then what? How many end times fictions will
the gullible fall for?
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat08.html
And we should take notice, that while people want to
keep moving around the "generation" that Jesus was
talking about, they always seem to forget about the
following passages...
Matthew 16:27-28
27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every
man according to his works.
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
Note that He speaks of judgment and says that some of
those who were standing there, would not die before it
happened.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental
collision, then the appearance of organic life on this
planet was also an accident and the whole evolution of
man was an accident too. If so, then all our thought
processes are mere accidents - the accidental
by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds
for the materialists' and astronomers' as well as for
anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., of
materialism and astronomy - are merely accidental
by-products, why should we believe them to be true?
I see no reason for believing that one accident
should be able to give a correct account of all
the other accidents." - C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
05 Aug 2004 07:03:37 AM |
|
|
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:00:53 GMT, "Nobody special"
<geneodell@comcast.net> screamed out:
=========================
One popular view is that the fig tree refers to a reborn Israel as
had been promised many times by O.T. prophets. This would
mark the end of the "times of the gentiles" and the beginning
of the last days. Most adherents to this view set that date to
1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem.
This makes sense giving that the fig tree symbol had been
used in O.T. prophecy for that very meaning.
Accept this and the "this generation" conundrum disappears.
Let's face it. This date was moved, when end times
calculations didn't work out for 1948, when they became
a nation again. Isn't it funny, how no one wants to
admit that the generation Jesus was talking about was
in His day and meant that the events would have taken
place within 40 years, yet, these end timers calculate
40 years from the date they think means Israel and the
fig tree event occurring, which would be a Biblical
generation? :) Obviously, from 1948, it didn't work
out. So in comes the excuse and now we need to
calculate from 1967, putting us at 2007. And when that
passes, then what? How many end times fictions will
the gullible fall for?
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat08.html
And we should take notice, that while people want to
keep moving around the "generation" that Jesus was
talking about, they always seem to forget about the
following passages...
Matthew 16:27-28
27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every
man according to his works.
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
Note that He speaks of judgment and says that some of
those who were standing there, would not die before it
happened.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"In fact, there is a great deal more to the
creation/evolution controversy than meets the eye,
or rather than meets the carefully cultivated media
stereotype of 'creationists' as Bible quoting know
nothings who refuse to face up to the scientific
evidence. The creationists may be wrong about many
things, but they have at least one very important
point to argue, a point that has been thoroughly
obscured by all the attention paid to Noah's Flood
and other side issues. What science educators
propose to teach as 'evolution' and label it as fact,
is based not upon any incontrovertible empirical
evidence (scientifically proven facts, ed.), but upon
a highly controversial philosophical presupposition.
The controversy over evolution is therefore not going
to go away as people become better educated on the
subject. On the contrary, the more people learn
about the philosophical content of what scientists
are calling the 'fact of evolution', the less they
are going to like it." - Philip E. Johnson, Evolution
as Dogma: The Establishment of Naturalism
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
|
|
| User: "Misty" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
06 Aug 2004 02:20:46 AM |
|
|
Pastor Dave wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:00:53 GMT, "Nobody special"
<geneodell@comcast.net> screamed out:
=========================
One popular view is that the fig tree refers to a reborn Israel as
had been promised many times by O.T. prophets. This would
mark the end of the "times of the gentiles" and the beginning
of the last days. Most adherents to this view set that date to
1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem.
This makes sense giving that the fig tree symbol had been
used in O.T. prophecy for that very meaning.
Accept this and the "this generation" conundrum disappears.
N.S., That "Fig Tree" also may well be the New Jerusalem that Jesus started to rebuild
the very day he arose from the dead on that third day of HIs execution some 2,000 years
ago. Jesus has not stopped that process to this day.
However, when the Jews rejected their "Messiah", That "MESSIAH" also rejected them,
and causes them just like the Gentiles to then and now Come to him but one at a time,
and never as a nation our a group of people. God meant they were rejected and they will
stay rejected until the day comes that they declare that Jesus is the Messiah that
was to come to them.
Let's face it. This date was moved, when end times
calculations didn't work out for 1948, when they became
a nation again. Isn't it funny, how no one wants to
admit that the generation Jesus was talking about was
in His day and meant that the events would have taken
place within 40 years, yet, these end timers calculate
40 years from the date they think means Israel and the
fig tree event occurring, which would be a Biblical
generation? :) Obviously, from 1948, it didn't work
out. So in comes the excuse and now we need to
calculate from 1967, putting us at 2007. And when that
passes, then what? How many end times fictions will
the gullible fall for?
P. D., There is a whole lot more in days and years in the bible that you are not
recognizing at all.
In Fact you have dung yourself into a "RUT", and now you can not dig your way
back out of it even even if you did recognize you are in great "ERROR".
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat08.html
And we should take notice, that while people want to
keep moving around the "generation" that Jesus was
talking about, they always seem to forget about the
following passages...
Matthew 16:27-28
27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every
man according to his works.
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
IN your present state of mind you would not recognize Him even if he did come to you.
Note that He speaks of judgment and says that some of
those who were standing there, would not die before it
happened.
He also judges those that He chooses to be His very own elect people.
HE judges them with in the twinkling of the eye when they become believers in both
Him and His WRitten word.
Misty,
.
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| User: "Wendy" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
06 Aug 2004 01:56:35 PM |
|
|
"Misty" <""yardholler\"@Nospam,charter.net> wrote in message
news:10h6bvnr08ujc69@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Dave wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:00:53 GMT, "Nobody special"
<geneodell@comcast.net> screamed out:
=========================
One popular view is that the fig tree refers to a reborn Israel as
had been promised many times by O.T. prophets. This would
mark the end of the "times of the gentiles" and the beginning
of the last days. Most adherents to this view set that date to
1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem.
This makes sense giving that the fig tree symbol had been
used in O.T. prophecy for that very meaning.
Accept this and the "this generation" conundrum disappears.
N.S., That "Fig Tree" also may well be the New Jerusalem that Jesus
started to rebuild
the very day he arose from the dead on that third day of HIs execution
some 2,000 years
ago. Jesus has not stopped that process to this day.
However, when the Jews rejected their "Messiah", That "MESSIAH" also
rejected them,
and causes them just like the Gentiles to then and now Come to him but one
at a time,
and never as a nation our a group of people. God meant they were rejected
and they will
stay rejected until the day comes that they declare that Jesus is the
Messiah that
was to come to them.
Hi Father Dave and Misty:
Only Witches can curse a tree, Jesus was such a Witch.
Have a nice day,
Wendy
.
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| User: "Misty" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
07 Aug 2004 02:00:19 AM |
|
|
Wendy wrote:
"Misty" <""yardholler\"@Nospam,charter.net> wrote in message
news:10h6bvnr08ujc69@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Dave wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:00:53 GMT, "Nobody special"
<geneodell@comcast.net> screamed out:
=========================
One popular view is that the fig tree refers to a reborn Israel as
had been promised many times by O.T. prophets. This would
mark the end of the "times of the gentiles" and the beginning
of the last days. Most adherents to this view set that date to
1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem.
This makes sense giving that the fig tree symbol had been
used in O.T. prophecy for that very meaning.
Accept this and the "this generation" conundrum disappears.
N.S., That "Fig Tree" also may well be the New Jerusalem that Jesus
started to rebuild
the very day he arose from the dead on that third day of HIs execution
some 2,000 years
ago. Jesus has not stopped that process to this day.
However, when the Jews rejected their "Messiah", That "MESSIAH" also
rejected them,
and causes them just like the Gentiles to then and now Come to him but one
at a time,
and never as a nation our a group of people. God meant they were rejected
and they will
stay rejected until the day comes that they declare that Jesus is the
Messiah that
was to come to them.
Hi Father Dave and Misty:
Only Witches can curse a tree, Jesus was such a Witch.
Have a nice day,
Wendy
.
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| User: "Misty" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
07 Aug 2004 01:59:10 AM |
|
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Wendy wrote:
Snip>
.
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| User: "Stephen Bayzik" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
05 Aug 2004 01:03:35 PM |
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Pastor Frank.
Your theological foreskin is showing.
Your concept of the Christ is that of a festering penis.
--
Stephen Bayzik
.
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| User: "Cindy" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
05 Aug 2004 02:33:48 PM |
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"Stephen Bayzik" <stephen.bayzik@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1EuQc.30929$Jq2.1457411@news20.bellglobal.com...
Pastor Frank.
Your theological foreskin is showing.
Your concept of the Christ is that of a festering penis.
--
Stephen Bayzik
Well after all, Father Frank was made in "God's" image.
.
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| User: "Stephen Bayzik" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
05 Aug 2004 09:27:02 PM |
|
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"Cindy" <Cindy@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:wYvQc.231719$JR4.3291@attbi_s54...
"Stephen Bayzik" <stephen.bayzik@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1EuQc.30929$Jq2.1457411@news20.bellglobal.com...
Pastor Frank.
Your theological foreskin is showing.
Your concept of the Christ is that of a festering penis.
Stephen Bayzik
Well after all, Father Frank was made in "God's" image.
Using a metaphor for both "God's image" and my reaction toward a degenerate
mind. Anyone who believes that only the Christian is a favourite for "God's
image" is a sick degenerate.
Take care
--
Stephen Bayzik
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
04 Aug 2004 06:40:11 AM |
|
|
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:00:53 GMT, "Nobody special"
<geneodell@comcast.net> screamed out:
=========================
One popular view is that the fig tree refers to a reborn Israel as
had been promised many times by O.T. prophets. This would
mark the end of the "times of the gentiles" and the beginning
of the last days. Most adherents to this view set that date to
1967 when the Jews retook Jerusalem.
This makes sense giving that the fig tree symbol had been
used in O.T. prophecy for that very meaning.
Accept this and the "this generation" conundrum disappears.
Let's face it. This date was moved, when end times
calculations didn't work out for 1948, when they became
a nation again. Isn't it funny, how no one wants to
admit that the generation Jesus was talking about was
in His day and meant that the events would have taken
place within 40 years, yet, these end timers calculate
40 years from the date they think means Israel and the
fig tree event occurring, which would be a Biblical
generation? :) Obviously, from 1948, it didn't work
out. So in comes the excuse and now we need to
calculate from 1967, putting us at 2007. And when that
passes, then what? How many end times fictions will
the gullible fall for?
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat08.html
And we should take notice, that while people want to
keep moving around the "generation" that Jesus was
talking about, they always seem to forget about the
following passages...
Matthew 16:27-28
27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every
man according to his works.
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
Note that He speaks of judgment and says that some of
those who were standing there, would not die before it
happened.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"Wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in
the world believed that the world was flat? And
up until like what, 50 years ago, you all thought
the atom was the smallest thing, until you split
it open and this like, whole mess of crap came out.
Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably
arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny
tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?"
- Phoebe from Friends, regarding evolution
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
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| User: "Misty" |
|
| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
05 Aug 2004 03:18:32 AM |
|
|
HEllo Paul R.,
A bit long but very good the parts that I read anyway.
Misty, of the mist, of the Cloud of witnesses of the Creator Lord.
Paul Rivera wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v3atg01ugafs7dvaqurcpmn27eh9er58hr@4ax.com...
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
After Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple, they asked Him for
a sign of His authority to do that which He did. His answer to them was that
He would raise up THIS TEMPLE in three days, after they destroy it. Neither
His immediate audience, nor His own disciples understood what He meant by
THIS TEMPLE at the time that He said it.
John 2:19-22 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and
in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years
was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he
spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead,
his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed
the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Only after His resurrection was the TEMPLE reference understood as having a
hidden meaning and referring to His body. When speaking in public, Christ
often spoke in parables, and explained to His apostles that He did so
because it was not meant for the general public to know the mysteries
(hidden things) of the Kingdom of Heaven. If Christ used parables to hide
secrets from certain persons, then what secret thing was He hiding in the
parable of the fig tree, which proceeds in all three accounts the
preterist's foundational verse, "This generation shall not pass away, till
all be fulfilled."
On the one hand, the preterist insists that Christ is being literal, even
after publicly exclaiming that He is about to speak a parable, yet on the
other hand, and in the exact same discourse, they insist that He is being
figurative about coming in the clouds.
The apostles started off asking, "what shall be the sign of thy coming". If
we understand "this generation" to mean His audience, then where is Christ
today? Or, is the preterist position that His Coming is also figurative?
Had the following occurred by 70AD; "this gospel of the kingdom shall be
preached in all the world" ???
When has this occurred, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds" ???
Interesting how that the preterist views all of the above as being fulfilled
only figuratively while the one passage that defines their stance is the
only one spoken after Christ public announces He is about to speak a
parable.
For anyone that may be persuaded by this preterist position, consider those
money changers outside of the Temple, and look beyond what they could only
understand in the flesh. Consider well Christ's warning about those who
point to Him as being either here or there. Christ's second coming will be
as visible as lightning in the sky. The preterist's implicit position then
is that Christ lied about the audible sounds, visual sights, and angelic
actions concerning His coming.
For the preterist, who is fond of saying, "did Christ lie when He said THIS
GENERATION", I ask you, did Christ lie when He said "THIS TEMPLE" ??? While
the most stubborn of you will dismiss the argument outright, my hope is that
some of you will rethink the entire concept of when Christ is being cryptic,
and when He is not.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
03 Aug 2004 06:50:39 AM |
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Tue, 03 Aug 2004 06:33:36 GMT, "Paul Rivera"
<privera@evergentsolutions.com> screamed out:
"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v3atg01ugafs7dvaqurcpmn27eh9er58hr@4ax.com...
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
After Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple, they asked Him for
a sign of His authority to do that which He did. His answer to them was that
He would raise up THIS TEMPLE in three days, after they destroy it. Neither
His immediate audience, nor His own disciples understood what He meant by
THIS TEMPLE at the time that He said it.
John 2:19-22 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and
in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years
was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he
spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead,
his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed
the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Only after His resurrection was the TEMPLE reference understood as having a
hidden meaning and referring to His body. When speaking in public, Christ
often spoke in parables, and explained to His apostles that He did so
because it was not meant for the general public to know the mysteries
(hidden things) of the Kingdom of Heaven. If Christ used parables to hide
secrets from certain persons, then what secret thing was He hiding in the
parable of the fig tree, which proceeds in all three accounts the
preterist's foundational verse, "This generation shall not pass away, till
all be fulfilled."
You are taking two different statements, about two
different things, to two different audiences and you're
trying to combine them.
On the one hand, the preterist insists that Christ is being literal, even
after publicly exclaiming that He is about to speak a parable, yet on the
other hand, and in the exact same discourse, they insist that He is being
figurative about coming in the clouds.
Nowhere does it say in Matthew 24, that He is about to
speak a parable. He is speaking to His disciples and
He told them He revealed things to them, that He spoke
to others about in parables.
Matthew 13:10-11
10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why
speakest thou unto them in parables?
11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given
unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of
heaven, but to them it is not given.
The apostles started off asking, "what shall be the sign of thy coming". If
we understand "this generation" to mean His audience, then where is Christ
today? Or, is the preterist position that His Coming is also figurative?
You assume a lot of things go along with said "coming"
and thus, you cannot imagine that it could have
happened.
Had the following occurred by 70AD; "this gospel of the kingdom shall be
preached in all the world" ???
When has this occurred, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds" ???
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and
be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye
have heard, and which was preached to every creature
which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a
minister;" - Colossians 1:23
Romans 10:17-18
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the
word of God.
18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their
sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the
ends of the world.
Interesting how that the preterist views all of the above as being fulfilled
only figuratively while the one passage that defines their stance is the
only one spoken after Christ public announces He is about to speak a
parable.
Nowhere does it say in Matthew 24, that He is about to
speak a parable. He is speaking to His disciples and
He told them He revealed things to them, that He spoke
to others about in parables.
Matthew 13:10-11
10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why
speakest thou unto them in parables?
11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given
unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of
heaven, but to them it is not given.
For anyone that may be persuaded by this preterist position, consider those
money changers outside of the Temple, and look beyond what they could only
understand in the flesh. Consider well Christ's warning about those who
point to Him as being either here or there. Christ's second coming will be
as visible as lightning in the sky. The preterist's implicit position then
is that Christ lied about the audible sounds, visual sights, and angelic
actions concerning His coming.
It is not the preterists who are interested in the
flesh. It is the futurists who look for a physical
kingdom on Earth, just as the Pharisees thought and
this, after Jesus said...
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the
kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for,
behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Once again, the futurist makes Jesus out to be a liar.
For the preterist, who is fond of saying, "did Christ lie when He said THIS
GENERATION", I ask you, did Christ lie when He said "THIS TEMPLE" ??? While
the most stubborn of you will dismiss the argument outright, my hope is that
some of you will rethink the entire concept of when Christ is being cryptic,
and when He is not.
The Bible tells us that He spoke of His body in the
passage that you refer to and He was speaking to the
public. In Matthew 24, He is speaking privately to His
disciples and He does not say that He really means His
body. Rather, it specifically states that He is
talking about the physical temple. Once again, you try
to combine two passages that don't go together, in a
desperate attempt to save your man made doctrine.
As for the "this generation" statement, let's take that
word right out of the equation and take a look at the
following passage...
Matthew 16:17-18
27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every
man according to his works.
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
Jesus speaks of judgment and says that some of those
standing there would not die before it happened.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"To belittle is to be little."
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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| User: "Misty" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
04 Aug 2004 04:12:46 AM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
snip>
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| User: "Brenda G. Kent" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
04 Aug 2004 11:29:42 AM |
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I don't think that Jesus ever lied in his life.
I.M.O
Bren
--
********************************************************
"Knowledge without wisdom is like stacking books
on the back of an *****"
Old Japanese saying.
Come visit my webpage at http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~wt211
*********************************************************
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| User: "bluskie" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
05 Aug 2004 03:47:26 PM |
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"Brenda G. Kent" <wt211@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.58.0408040929230.16999@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca>...
I don't think that Jesus ever lied in his life.
I.M.O
Bren
that's correct, someone who never existed can't lie.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
11 Aug 2004 08:56:00 PM |
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On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:29:42 -0700, "Brenda G. Kent" <wt211@victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
I don't think that Jesus ever lied in his life.
Since Jesus did not exist that would be true.
I.M.O
Bren
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
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| User: "Brenda G. Kent" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
11 Aug 2004 09:45:34 PM |
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I don't think that Jesus ever lied in his life.
Barry said:
Since Jesus did not exist that would be true.
Bren says: in your opinion maybe...
in my opinion he did exist and does in spirit.
Curious as to why you are on a christian newsgroup Barry if you don't
believe in christ?
Bren
--
********************************************************
"Knowledge without wisdom is like stacking books
on the back of an *****"
Old Japanese saying.
Come visit my webpage at http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~wt211
*********************************************************
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| User: "Paul Rivera" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
09 Aug 2004 08:16:56 PM |
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What is the preterist view on Matthew 25:31 - 46 ???
Did this happen in 70AD ???
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
10 Aug 2004 07:31:37 AM |
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:16:56 GMT, "Paul Rivera"
<privera@evergentsolutions.com> screamed out:
What is the preterist view on Matthew 25:31 - 46 ???
Did this happen in 70AD ???
Answer one question first.
Comes where (v31)?
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"Worry is interest paid on trouble before it is due."
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Paul Rivera" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
10 Aug 2004 08:16:55 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:00ghh05qtmpku29fnesuncqi12c6g5s7ce@4ax.com...
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:16:56 GMT, "Paul Rivera"
<privera@evergentsolutions.com> screamed out:
What is the preterist view on Matthew 25:31 - 46 ???
Did this happen in 70AD ???
Answer one question first.
Comes where (v31)?
Well, since there is no location spoken of explicitly in verse 31, I venture
to guess that something in verse 32 can be used to inexplicitly determine
the location.
"And before him shall be gathered all nations". Where ever this mystery
location is, the nations are also. So, where do you imagine the nations are?
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: DID JESUS LIE??? |
11 Aug 2004 07:46:37 AM |
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:16:55 GMT, "Paul Rivera"
<privera@evergentsolutions.com> screamed out:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:00ghh05qtmpku29fnesuncqi12c6g5s7ce@4ax.com...
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:16:56 GMT, "Paul Rivera"
<privera@evergentsolutions.com> screamed out:
What is the preterist view on Matthew 25:31 - 46 ???
Did this happen in 70AD ???
Answer one question first.
Comes where (v31)?
Well, since there is no location spoken of explicitly in verse 31, I venture
to guess that something in verse 32 can be used to inexplicitly determine
the location.
"And before him shall be gathered all nations". Where ever this mystery
location is, the nations are also. So, where do you imagine the nations are?
I see nothing in the Gospel to indicate that He comes
back to this world. Looking at Daniel 7 is very
revealing also. Read Daniel 7:1-13. You will see that
it discusses Him coming TO the Ancient of Days (God).
His glory is revealed in His coming TO take His throne.
That puts a different spin on judgment and where it
happens and what exactly Jesus' coming was.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your
own image when it turns out that God hates all the same
people you do. - Anne Lamott
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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