| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"SJAB1958" |
| Date: |
02 Dec 2006 07:05:24 AM |
| Object: |
Direct and Indirect Evidence |
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
.
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| User: "Remnant" |
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| Title: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
02 Dec 2006 05:21:29 PM |
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"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165064724.440731.228250@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
This is the essence of what it means to know God. You cannot establish a
relationship with someone you never met but have only heard about. The
relationship with God is one of the most intimate experiences one can have;
being able to have communion with someone who loves you in spite of your
faults, who blesses you with more than you can ever ask, and who knows you
better than you know yourself.
How does one acquire such a relationship? Seek Him. It is really just that
simple. Spend time talking to Him, ask Him to reveal Himself to you...He
will. For me, this dialogue took about a year. God had to get me in a
place first of all where I could hear Him (which also included removning me
from environments that distracted me from Him).
When this happens, it is not necessarily your five carnal senses that bear
witness to the presence of God, but your spirit. Your 5 senses really only
have purpose in the physical world, but when you are dealing with God, it is
an exercise of your spiritual senses.
Again, the directions are to ask, seek, knock. If you are sincere, the Lord
will answer your prayers. He will give you undeniable proof so that you
know inwardly that He is real. It is direct evidence, but real evidence
nonetheless.
God Bless.
.
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| User: "Ĝien" |
|
| Title: Re: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
02 Dec 2006 07:51:37 PM |
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On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:21:29 -0500, "Remnant" <remnant1@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165064724.440731.228250@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
This is the essence of what it means to know God. You cannot establish
a
relationship with someone you never met but have only heard about. The
relationship with God is one of the most intimate experiences one can
have;
being able to have communion with someone who loves you in spite of your
faults, who blesses you with more than you can ever ask, and who knows
you
better than you know yourself.
How does one acquire such a relationship? Seek Him. It is really just
that
simple. Spend time talking to Him, ask Him to reveal Himself to
you...He
will. For me, this dialogue took about a year. God had to get me in a
place first of all where I could hear Him (which also included removning
me
from environments that distracted me from Him).
When this happens, it is not necessarily your five carnal senses that
bear
witness to the presence of God, but your spirit. Your 5 senses really
only
have purpose in the physical world, but when you are dealing with God,
it is
an exercise of your spiritual senses.
Again, the directions are to ask, seek, knock. If you are sincere, the
Lord
will answer your prayers. He will give you undeniable proof so that you
know inwardly that He is real. It is direct evidence, but real evidence
nonetheless.
God Bless.
Please provide a single substantiated example of answered prayer.
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
|
| Title: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
02 Dec 2006 05:39:30 PM |
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On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:21:29 -0500, in alt.talk.creationism
"Remnant" <remnant1@bellsouth.net> wrote in
<XTnch.9599$f8.1144@bignews7.bellsouth.net>:
"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165064724.440731.228250@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
This is the essence of what it means to know God. You cannot establish a
relationship with someone you never met but have only heard about. The
relationship with God is one of the most intimate experiences one can have;
being able to have communion with someone who loves you in spite of your
faults, who blesses you with more than you can ever ask, and who knows you
better than you know yourself.
How does one acquire such a relationship? Seek Him. It is really just that
simple. Spend time talking to Him, ask Him to reveal Himself to you...He
will. For me, this dialogue took about a year. God had to get me in a
place first of all where I could hear Him (which also included removning me
from environments that distracted me from Him).
When this happens, it is not necessarily your five carnal senses that bear
witness to the presence of God, but your spirit. Your 5 senses really only
have purpose in the physical world, but when you are dealing with God, it is
an exercise of your spiritual senses.
Again, the directions are to ask, seek, knock. If you are sincere, the Lord
will answer your prayers. He will give you undeniable proof so that you
know inwardly that He is real. It is direct evidence, but real evidence
nonetheless.
God Bless.
What nonsense.
.
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| User: "SJAB1958" |
|
| Title: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
07 Dec 2006 06:06:57 AM |
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Remnant wrote:
"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165064724.440731.228250@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
This is the essence of what it means to know God. You cannot establish a
relationship with someone you never met but have only heard about. The
relationship with God is one of the most intimate experiences one can have;
being able to have communion with someone who loves you in spite of your
faults, who blesses you with more than you can ever ask, and who knows you
better than you know yourself.
How does one acquire such a relationship? Seek Him. It is really just that
simple. Spend time talking to Him, ask Him to reveal Himself to you...He
will. For me, this dialogue took about a year. God had to get me in a
place first of all where I could hear Him (which also included removning me
from environments that distracted me from Him).
When this happens, it is not necessarily your five carnal senses that bear
witness to the presence of God, but your spirit. Your 5 senses really only
have purpose in the physical world, but when you are dealing with God, it is
an exercise of your spiritual senses.
Again, the directions are to ask, seek, knock. If you are sincere, the Lord
will answer your prayers. He will give you undeniable proof so that you
know inwardly that He is real. It is direct evidence, but real evidence
nonetheless.
God Bless.
So you cannot provide direct evidence or the means of obtaining it
through the five physical senses. Can you tell me what proof or
evidence you have of these supposed spiritual senses of which you speak?
.
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| User: "SJAB1958" |
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| Title: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
14 Dec 2006 07:17:17 AM |
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Remnant wrote:
"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165064724.440731.228250@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
This is the essence of what it means to know God. You cannot establish a
relationship with someone you never met but have only heard about. The
relationship with God is one of the most intimate experiences one can have;
being able to have communion with someone who loves you in spite of your
faults, who blesses you with more than you can ever ask, and who knows you
better than you know yourself.
How does one acquire such a relationship? Seek Him. It is really just that
simple. Spend time talking to Him, ask Him to reveal Himself to you...He
will. For me, this dialogue took about a year. God had to get me in a
place first of all where I could hear Him (which also included removning me
from environments that distracted me from Him).
When this happens, it is not necessarily your five carnal senses that bear
witness to the presence of God, but your spirit. Your 5 senses really only
have purpose in the physical world, but when you are dealing with God, it is
an exercise of your spiritual senses.
Again, the directions are to ask, seek, knock. If you are sincere, the Lord
will answer your prayers. He will give you undeniable proof so that you
know inwardly that He is real. It is direct evidence, but real evidence
nonetheless.
God Bless.
You still havent responded to my request for evidence of these
'spiritual' senses, and considering your response further, you claim
that this spiritual experience is direct evidence, I beg to differ.
After all referring back to my analogy, I could claim that I dreamt
about Australia and that to me this proves that Australia exists,
however this is not the case as it isnt direct evidence, nor is
anything experienced by these alleged spiritual senses direct evidence.
.
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
02 Dec 2006 07:54:16 AM |
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SJAB1958 wrote:
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
Hello SJAB1958:
If there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, is that direct
evidence that God does not exist?
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
02 Dec 2006 04:54:48 PM |
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"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> wrote in message
news:1165067656.920130.51040@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
SJAB1958 wrote:
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
Hello SJAB1958:
If there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, is that direct
evidence that God does not exist?
If there is no direct evidence for the existence of a tooth fairy, is that
direct
evidence that tooth fairy does not exist?
--
Andrew W.
A god who requires bloodshed and suffering of the innocent in order to
forgive can only be an evil god, and anyone who gleefully supports this kind
of god character is insane.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
God wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
.
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| User: "AcesLucky" |
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| Title: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
02 Dec 2006 10:30:51 AM |
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Provoker wrote:
SJAB1958 wrote:
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
Hello SJAB1958:
If there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, is that direct
evidence that God does not exist?
Of course not; the question is a negative. But it's a very
strong indicator.
.
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| User: "Ĝien" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
02 Dec 2006 07:50:31 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:30:51 -0700, AcesLucky <aceslucky@netscape.net>
wrote:
Provoker wrote:
SJAB1958 wrote:
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot
directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
Hello SJAB1958:
If there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, is that
direct
evidence that God does not exist?
Of course not; the question is a negative. But it's a very
strong indicator.
Indicators have no value whatsoever unless one is grasping to straws.
.
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| User: "SJAB1958" |
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| Title: Re: Direct and Indirect Evidence |
07 Dec 2006 06:04:47 AM |
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Provoker wrote:
SJAB1958 wrote:
I was standing in my living room wondering this morning if I could
prove the existence of something using my five senses if it wasnt
within the range of those senses.
I had to come to the conclusion that without having experienced that
something (whatever it may be) directly, the only evidence I could
gather would be through inferences.
For example, standing in my living room (in England) I cannot directly
prove the existence of Australia.
I could get a phone call from someone who might say they are living
there, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could receive a letter or a postcard with an Australian stamp and
postmark on it, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
I could see a television programme produced by an Australian company,
but that is not direct evidence of the existence of Australia.
I could have a visitor who would leave me a souvenir of their holiday
in Australia, but that is not direct evidence of the existence of
Australia.
All of these things suggest that Australia might exist, but I would
have no direct evidence of my own senses unless someone gave me
directions on how to get there and I travelled to that location where
Australia is said to be located. Then I would be able to say "yes
Australia does exist".
So can anyone provide direct evidence experienced by their own five
senses that can confirm the existence of God?
Or better still can anyone provide me with directions to gain that
experience for myself?
Hello SJAB1958:
If there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, is that direct
evidence that God does not exist?
Not necessarily, as I stated I have no direct evidence for the
existence of Australia, but that doesnt prove its non-existence.
Therefore not having direct evidence of God existing, is not direct
evidence of God's non-existence.
.
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