Discussions: Amillennialism, Eschatology, Early Fathers, Replacement Theology

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"mugz"
Date:	20 Dec 2006 10:23:32 AM
Object:	Discussions: Amillennialism, Eschatology, Early Fathers, Replacement Theology

I've been corresponding via email, and thought after the work I'd gone
through, I'd post this here:
------------------
Dear *****
It may also be that you have an amillennial view of prophecy, (ie
following those who preach 'replacment theology', which really just
goes to show that Calvin and Luther did little besides set up thier own
little popedoms, but basically followed the same eschatolgy of the
RCC).
As for myself, to try to allegorize the the Old and New testament
prophecies, subjects the entire Word of God to be simply a matter of
mans interpretation, and opens the floodgates to any sort of
allegorical meaning one would like to attach to it. Nonesense I say!
Clearly, many pre-Christian Jews and the earliest Christians believed
in a 6000 year prophetic timeline, to be followed by a Sabbitical
Millennium. Perhaps if you will not accept what the Bible says as being
true, (and chose instead to allegorize the prophecies), you might
consider what the disciples of the Apostles, and thier disciples had to
say. I have yet to find any of the Early Fathers who espoused an
amillennial view. The idea seems to have been started by Origen, (who
was excommunicated), and instituted by Augustine hundreds of years
later, which became the foundation of the doctrines of the RCC, (ie the
great apostacy IMHO).
Consider these quotes, (common beliefes of the pre-Christian Jews and
the Early Fathers who studied at the feet of the Apostles):
Here is how the Babylonian Talmud states this: "The world as we know it
will exist solely for 6,000 years. The first 2,000 years will be
defined by chaos. The second 2,000 years will mark the years of Torah.
The final 2,000 years will include the Messianic Age." (Rosh Hashanah
29a) and "The school of Eliyahu teaches: 'the world exists for six
thousand years -- two thousand of them tohu ["void"]; two thousand,
Torah; and two thousand, the era of the Messiah. But because of our
numerous iniquities many of these years have been lost'" (Sanhedrin
97a-97b).
The Encyclopaedia Judaica: Jewish eschatology includes a prophetic-week
of seven millenniums corresponding with the week of Creation. The
verse, "A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday" (Ps.90:4)
having suggested the idea that the present world of toil is to be
followed by a Sabbatical millennium, "the world to come."
("Eschatology," Encyclopaedia Judaica, V, p.211).
St. Papias, (Disciple of John, 90CE), Exposition of the Oracles of the
Lord, Book 4: "there will be a millennium after the resurrection from
the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on
earth." (As quoted by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History (book III, ch.
39)
St. Barnabas (General Epistle 100CE): And God made the works of His
hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it,
and He hallowed it. Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in
six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall
bring all things to an end; And He rested on the seventh day. This He
meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the
Lawless One
St. Justin Martyr (Christian Apologist 100-166 AD) Dialogue of Justin
Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew: But I and others, who are
right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a
resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem
St. Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons 120-203 AD) Against the Heresies Book 5:
For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created
things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to
an end at the sixth thousand year.
Tertullian (Christian Apologist 150-212 AD) Against Marcion, Book III:
Christ promises to the Jews their primitive condition, with the
recovery of their country ... a kingdom is promised to us upon the
earth ... inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand
years
St. Clement of Alexandria (Died 215AD) Elucidations Chapter 3: thus
honouring the system of sevens which runs through all Scripture. Thus
Adam embraces Paradise, and the first covenant after the fall; and the
Christian covenant embraces a millennial period.
Lactantius (317 A.D.) The Divine Institutes Book 7: Therefore, since
all the works of God were completed in six days, the world must
continue in its present state through six ages ... at the end of the
six thousandth year all wickedness must be abolished from the earth,
and righteousness reign for a thousand years
Is it your opinion, that Jesus and the Apostles FAILED to establish the
Church, in the beginning, with correct doctrine? Do you honestly
believe it took people who came along hundreds of years later to figure
out that the Bible iteslf is just an allegory, subject to
interpretation? If you in fact believe these things, then you need to
seriously get down on your knees and as Jesus to open your eyes.
Events are unfolding just as the Bible and only the Bible foretold.
It was fortold that Israel would be destroyed, the Jews scattered all
over the earth and persecuted, in the "last days" the nation would be
ressurected and Jerusalem would be recaptured (near the end of a 6000
year prophetic timeline).
It was fortld that a great false-prophet would arise creating a
counterfiet religion, decieve a large part of the world, teach his
follwers to kill the Jews and Christians in the last days, draw the
powers of the earth into the conflict, teach about the coming of a
"fake Jesus" who is not the Son of God that would come destroy
Christianity, and teach his followers would have marks on their
foreheads and hands. Mohammed fulfilled this.
It is as if God were parting the Red Sea before our eyes, yet many of
His Sheep are blind, and cannot see it. I pray that God will open
yours.
mugz

From: *****
To:

Subject: Re:
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:06:28 EST

12/20/06
Good Morning,
<<Well, if you have read it all, then you know also that He will return and
usher in an era of peace.>>
Jesus has made two appearances in the flesh and both are recorded in the
bible. I know of no scripture to suggest a third appearance in the flesh.
Jesus has/does appear to people in spirit. Even this is recorded in the bible.
As for peace, the peace that is available is peace between God and man.
There will never be peace between men.
Have Fun..........Be Happy!!
**

Cearly you've not read, (or perhaps reject), the New Testament. The
return of Jesus is mentioned over and over again - perhaps Acts 1:11 is
the clearest example:
Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the
sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will
come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
After He rose from the dead, and ascended back to heaven, as it is
written, the SAME Jesus, will come back IN THE SAME WAY - pretty clear!
That's pretty clear to me. The Millennium to come is also quite clearly
foretold in both the Old Testament and the New.
Bill

From: *****
To:

User: "Bjango the lucky monkey"
Title: Re: Discussions: Amillennialism, Eschatology, Early Fathers, Replacement Theology	20 Dec 2006 03:41:14 PM

Good post :-) more please.
.

User: "mugz"
Title: Re: Discussions: Amillennialism, Eschatology, Early Fathers, Replacement Theology	20 Dec 2006 10:22:49 PM

Bjango the lucky monkey wrote:

Good post :-) more please.

A couple more tid-bits, (remember, while Satan cannot predict the
future, he can read what God has alread said):
SUNAN ABU-DAWUD BOOK 36, Number 4272: Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The
Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The Mahdi will be of my stock, and
will have a broad forehead a prominent nose. He will fill the earth
will equity and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny,
and he will rule for seven years.
SAHIH MUSLIM, Volume 2, Number 0479: They said: Messenger of Allah,
will you recognise us on that day? He said: Yes, you will have
distinctive marks which nobody among the peoples (except you) will
have; you would come to me with blazing forehead and bright hands
mugz
.

User: "Truth PLEASE!"
Title: Re: Discussions: Amillennialism, Eschatology, Early Fathers, Replacement Theology	22 Dec 2006 12:18:47 AM

mugz wrote:

Bjango the lucky monkey wrote:

Good post :-) more please.

Here are some thoughts that follow the same thinking:
The End Times discussion is always interesting, but remains speculative
in most cases. Let me cite some things that I do believe go beyond
speculation though, and I think I can help you see some very REAL
prophetic landmarks.
First off, I think there are some strong hints (you can also call these
typologies) found in the Old and New testaments. The apostle Peter
tells us that "One day with the Lord, is as 1,000 years as 1,000 years
is as one day" 2. Pet. 3;8. This statement is made in the context of
the end time events, when God would fulfill His promises.
You have already cited some strong evidence that the apostle Peter was
not just being poetic, but actually knew that the time designated by
God for the completion of
man's rule and rebellion on earth would last a total 6,000 years, or
six days with God. (Adam's fall from grace is dated at 4004 B.C. by
most Biblical schollars.) That means the end of this 6,000 year period
would come to completion in 1996. Now there are some problems with this
date, obviously nothing happend in 1996 to end this age. I'll explain
why 1996 is 40 years early later on. (if you have followed what I have
said so far, and are good with addition, you will see that pushes the
date out to 2036) Please keep in mind that these are only rough
estimates, and of that DAY and of that HOUR no man knows when exactly
the Lord will return. We can NOT know of the DAY and HOUR of the Lord's
return, but we MIGHT know the season, and possibly the YEAR!
At the completion of this 6,000 year age, Jesus Christ will return to
reign on earth for 1,000 years, as a sabbath or Day of rest with his
elect. (The meek shall inherit the earth) That totals 7,000 years or
one week of days with the Lord. After that, a new heaven and new earth
will be constructed for eternity.
Remember Jesus said in reference to His body, "Destroy this temple, and
in three days I will raise it up" The scriptures plainly say that He
was talking about His body, though the Jewish leaders accused Him of
talking about the Temple building itself. But there is a typology here,
that could be interpreted to refer to the Temple building itself, that
would be destroyed and rebuilt again on the third day (after 2,000
years) in Jerusalem. Now most Biblical historians believe that Jesus
was crucified and resurrected about 29 or 30 AD.
When the veil of the temple was torn at the time of Jesus' death, that
began the first 1,000 years. The third day (or beginning of the last
1,000 year period of 3,000 years or three days with the Lord) will
begin around 2029. Remember, Jesus rose EARLY on the third day before
dawn. (Psst, 2029 is seven years short of 2036, allowing for the seven
year tribulation period)
.

User: "mugz"
Title: Re: Discussions: Amillennialism, Eschatology, Early Fathers, Replacement Theology	22 Dec 2006 11:05:43 AM

Truth PLEASE! wrote:

You have already cited some strong evidence that the apostle Peter was
not just being poetic, but actually knew that the time designated by
God for the completion of
man's rule and rebellion on earth would last a total 6,000 years, or
six days with God. (Adam's fall from grace is dated at 4004 B.C. by
most Biblical schollars.)

This is where things get a little muddled for me. While I believe in
the 6000 year prophetic timeline, I am not so sure that we can pin down
Adam at 4004 BC, (there are also gaps in the Biblical record). More
importantly, the world described 'in the beginning' is not the world we
live in today. In Genesis chapter one, it says that every living thing
that moved on the earth was given gree herbs for food, and that death
and decay did not exist, all was "good", (in fact, permission to consme
meat was not given until after the flood (the flood story also puzzels
me)).
First let me digress and say that it is not the things that I don't
understand that cause me to beleive the Bible, rather, it is the things
I can easily understand that not only cause me to believe it, but also
convince me of its supernatural origins, (and moreover, even the belief
in the supernatural iself).
The Bible does seem to indicate, (most clearly in Romans), that 'all of
creation' was effected by the fall of man. I think it is probable that
the 'skins' given to Adam and Eve in Genesis may very well be these
mortal bodies that we wear, (since before the fall, there was also no
death or decay). What I see in Genesis is a very different world, where
everything was 'good' - most certainly not the world / reality we live
in today. The Bible also seems to indicate that that the earth, and
everything in it, will one day return to that state, (where the lion
will lay down with the lamb and eat 'straw' like the ox). This to me is
all a great mystery.
It's almost as if, this present reality, exists, with its own past,
present and future, because of the fall of man. I take issue virtually
all so-called "crationists", (not just the young earth creationists),
when they try to present the Bible as being some sort of 'science book'
and that the truths therein can be expained or backed up by science.
(Perhaps they can be, but not by our present science or the study of
paleontology, archeology, etc). I believe the world described in
Genesis, is in fact a seperate reality that still exists. I believe
that this present reality, came into existance, with its own past,
present and future, with the fall of man. I can think of no better
place this fact is described than in Romans chapter 8 and I will quote
the Amplified:
"18 [But what of that?] For I consider that the sufferings of this
present time (this present life) are not worth being compared with the
glory that is about to be revealed to us and in us and [g]for us and
[h]conferred on us!
19 For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and
longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the
revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20 For the creation (nature) was subjected to [i]frailty (to
futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional
fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet]
with the hope
21 That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage
to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious
freedom of God's children.
22 We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has
been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.
23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and
enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful
things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our
bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption
(our manifestation as God's sons).
To me, this is one of the most profound statements in the entire Bible.
While thes truths are addressed in other places in the Bible, this
particular passage makes it more difficult to allegorize the other
passages of scripture. As this truth is presented in Romans, its pretty
stratight forward and clearly states that this entire reality is in
bondage to death and decay but will one day be restored.
I also have some ideas as to how this will happen.

We can NOT know of the DAY and HOUR of the Lord's return,
but we MIGHT know the season, and possibly the YEAR!

I might agree that this 'reality' came into being around 4000 years
ago, but I would also say that it came into being with an existing
past, present and future. (And at some point in the future, if the days
were not 'cut short, no flesh would be saved').

At the completion of this 6,000 year age, Jesus Christ will return to
reign on earth for 1,000 years, as a sabbath or Day of rest with his
elect. (The meek shall inherit the earth) That totals 7,000 years or
one week of days with the Lord. After that, a new heaven and new earth
will be constructed for eternity.

On this we agree.

Remember Jesus said in reference to His body, "Destroy this temple, and

in three days I will raise it up" The scriptures plainly say that He
was talking about His body, though the Jewish leaders accused Him of
talking about the Temple building itself. But there is a typology here,

that could be interpreted to refer to the Temple building itself, that
would be destroyed and rebuilt again on the third day (after 2,000
years) in Jerusalem. Now most Biblical historians believe that Jesus
was crucified and resurrected about 29 or 30 AD.
When the veil of the temple was torn at the time of Jesus' death, that
began the first 1,000 years. The third day (or beginning of the last
1,000 year period of 3,000 years or three days with the Lord) will
begin around 2029. Remember, Jesus rose EARLY on the third day before
dawn. (Psst, 2029 is seven years short of 2036, allowing for the seven
year tribulation period).

I would agree that the present age did not begin with the birth of
Christ, as so many have speculated in the past. When did it begin? With
His resurection? Perhaps on the day of Pentacost? Some speculate that
it was 7 years befrore Peter had the vision of God cleansing the
unclean, and the Gospel actually went to the Gentiles, (perhaps the
'days of the gentiles' began only then). Or even the date one
generation removed from the birth of the church, perhaps the
distruction of the Temple marked the beginning of the present age.
I don;t know Gods callendar, and I don't think we are supposed to know.
I don't even think it is possible to speculate within a year or even a
decade, but I'd expect it will be within next 100 years. I also know
that God could come for me at any time, even before I finish typing
this post.
mugz
.

User: "Truth PLEASE!"
Title: Re: Discussions: Amillennialism, Eschatology, Early Fathers, Replacement Theology	22 Dec 2006 10:54:39 PM

mugz wrote:

Truth PLEASE! wrote:

I am not sure that I understand your exact meaning here, but I think it
is an interesting concept. ---that this present age (paraphrasing) is
like an ugly reflection, or an evil parallel world that we became
cosmically traped in, until it rights itself with Christ's return.
My understanding is that the entire scope of creation slowly changed
because of sin, and so mankind slowly began to die at a younger and
younger age from 989 years down to about 80 or 90 on average.

We can NOT know of the DAY and HOUR of the Lord's return,
but we MIGHT know the season, and possibly the YEAR!

On this we agree.

I think that this is one of the main points the 1,000 year reign of
Christ will exemplify, that the natural (non resurrected flesh) man
will again begin to live longer and that animals will again become
docile and friendly, to illustrate how God intended the world to be.

I don;t know Gods callendar, and I don't think we are supposed to know.
I don't even think it is possible to speculate within a year or even a
decade, but I'd expect it will be within next 100 years. I also know
that God could come for me at any time, even before I finish typing
this post.

I agree here too.
I actually try to avoid the "DATE" thing myself. The problem is, that I
feel like I am supposed to share this, even though it is easily
misunderstood and has been done so many times before in error. (maybe
God is using this to see who is really paying attention, I don't know)
But in my last post, I indicated as you noticed, that Biblical
schollars date the fall of Adam at about 4,004 B.C. Interesting that
Jesus was born around 4 B.C. or 4,000 years later. in the beginning of
the 80th jubilee. Now from the law of Moses we know that every 50th
year was called the year of Jubilee. My theory is that for every 1,000
years that pass, there are an additional 20 years of Jubilee that are
added to make one full Day with the Lord being 1000 (+20) years. The
year of Jubilee was sanctified and not counted by the Rabbis and set
apart, so the first 80 years of Jubilee passed from 4004 to 4 B.C but
were not counted in the common record. The actual time that elapsed
from the fall of Adam was 4,000 normal years, plus 80 Jubilee years,
4080 in total.
So the completion of the 6 DAYS with the Lord being 6,000 years plus
120 total Jubilees would be 6,120 years. That would put us 40 years (20
years of jubilee for each 1,000 X 2, past from the birth of Christ)
past 1996---or 2036. So we still have the 40 years of Jubilee to make
up, going beyond the 2,000 years after the birth of Christ which would
have been 1996. Did I confuse you? I hope not. (kidding)
But you see, this is something I think I need to share. 2029-30 will
also be 40 years SHORT of the time the Temple was destroyed by Titus
the Roman in 69-70 AD.
I believe that the destruction of the Temple actually BEGAN when the
veil of the Holy of Holies was torn when Jesus was crucified, and that
at this point the Temple was now profaned, and the holy covenant
transferred to the heavenly temple. Jesus's death was the end of the
Law, and the earthly temple ritural sacrifice of Moses under the Old
law.
So even though it took almost 40 years (as Jesus foretold) for the
actual Temple site to be destroyed, the need and use of the building
itself was finished when He died and Resurrected.
So, after 2029, we begin the THIRD day, and now the Temple building
will be rebuilt for events foretold like the "abomination of
desolation," where the beast (Antichrist) sets up an image of himself
in the inner court, and begins the assult on God and His children until
the tribulation time is past and Jesus returns to rule and reign.

mugz

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