| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
24 Jul 2006 01:56:38 AM |
| Object: |
Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1670308/posts
An Interview with Professor Thomas Madden: Dispelling Myths About the
Crusades
TFP ^ | 2006
Posted on 07/21/2006 10:27:16 PM PDT by Coleus
An Interview with Professor Thomas Madden:
Dispelling Myths About the Crusades
The TFP's Crusade Magazine recently did an interview with accomplished
medieval historian Professor Thomas Madden of St. Louis University, to
dispel some common myths concerning the Crusades. The text of this
interview is transcribed below.
1. Some authors contend the Crusades were wars of aggression against a
peaceful Muslim world. What is your position in this matter?
It is difficult to see how anyone familiar with the sources could make
such a claim. The original goal of the First Crusade, as it was
annunciated in the papal call as well as numerous crusader charters,
was to respond to Muslim aggression against Christians in the East and
to restore those lands taken by Muslims to their Christian owners.
2. Many adversaries of the Crusades claim that, although Crusaders wore
crosses and religious symbols, their only goal was to gain riches and
territories. What is your opinion on the matter?
This is a fairly old-fashioned view, now largely rejected by scholars.
It was based on a Victorian experience with colonialism that has no
relationship at all to the medieval Crusades. We now know that
crusading was almost never profitable. Crusaders often impoverished
themselves and their families in order to pay for their expeditions.
Whatever booty they received (and the Crusades were notoriously bad for
plunder) was more than offset by their expenses. The vast majority of
Crusaders had no interest in remaining in the East, but rather
fulfilled their vows and returned home as soon as they were able.
During the interview, Prof. Madden declared: "I have no doubt that had
there been no Crusades at all that western Europe would have been
conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as southeastern Europe was."
3. Some accuse the Crusades of being a sort of medieval colonialism
disguised in religious trappings. Is this true and could you comment on
this?
Colonialism, if it is to have any meaning at all, requires certain
things: most importantly a mother country that funds and directs the
colonial expansion, a colonial government linked to a home government,
and policy of colonization or exploitation in the colony. The Crusades
had none of these things. No mother country supported the Crusades.
Rather they were funded and undertaken by individuals across
Christendom for the benefit of their souls and their co-religionists
overseas. The governments in the Crusaders States were independent,
with no direct ties to any European countries. And the Europeans had
no policy of colonization or exploitation in the East. Rather, the
overriding purpose of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was to safeguard the
Holy Places and the lives of Christian pilgrims coming to visit them.
4. Is the following thesis historically defensible: Although the West
lost political control over the Holy Land and the near East after the
seventh and last Crusade, the effort Christians made from the 11th to
the 13th centuries broke the impetus of the Muslim offensive against
Europe and thus prevented the European continent from becoming Islamic
back in medieval times.
No, on several counts. The Seventh Crusade was by no means the last
Crusade. They continued well into the sixteenth century. The famous
Battle of Lepanto in 1571 was a Crusade. Catholics did lose the
mainland, but they held onto Cyprus and Rhodes for centuries. I
believe it is fair to say, however, that the Crusades did slow the
advance of Muslim Empires - namely the Ottoman Empire - into Europe
just long enough to allow Europeans to effectively defend themselves.
I have no doubt that had there been no Crusades at all that western
Europe would have been conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as
southeastern Europe was.
5. The Fourth Crusade is one of the most maligned of the Crusades. This
is the Crusade you have studied in depth. Could you comment on some of
the myths about the Fourth Crusade?
The biggest myth is that the Crusade was purposely diverted from its
original goal - either by Pope Innocent III or Doge Enrico Dandolo
- in order to conquer Constantinople. In fact, on several occasions
the pope forbade the crusaders to go to Constantinople and once they
were there, forbade them to attack the city. It is also not true that
the Crusaders were led to Constantinople by a hatred of the Greeks or
an envy of their empire. Instead, they came to Constantinople at the
invitation of a Greek claimant to the throne, who promised to help them
on their Crusade. The Crusaders only attacked Constantinople after
their Greek friend double-crossed them, refusing to pay their reward or
to join the Crusade. Even then, they only initiated hostilities when
the Greeks murdered their former friend and ordered the Crusaders to
leave immediately without reward, support, or even food. The Fourth
Crusade is a tragedy, but it is one in which the Greeks and Latins both
played important parts.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
24 Jul 2006 08:11:23 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
1. Some authors contend the Crusades were wars of aggression against a
peaceful Muslim world. What is your position in this matter?
It is difficult to see how anyone familiar with the sources could make
such a claim. The original goal of the First Crusade, as it was
annunciated in the papal call as well as numerous crusader charters,
was to respond to Muslim aggression against Christians in the East and
to restore those lands taken by Muslims to their Christian owners.
Well said. It is often conveniently forgotten that these 'peaceful
Muslim states'
came into an existence as a result of conquest and conversion (not
necessarily
voluntary) of a native population. Somehow Muslim conquest of Iran,
Middle East,
Northern Africa and Spain is not counted as 'conquest'.
2. Many adversaries of the Crusades claim that, although Crusaders wore
crosses and religious symbols, their only goal was to gain riches and
territories. What is your opinion on the matter?
This is a fairly old-fashioned view, now largely rejected by scholars.
It was based on a Victorian experience with colonialism that has no
relationship at all to the medieval Crusades. We now know that
crusading was almost never profitable.
Well, during the 1st crusade some of the top leaders managed to create
principalities of their own and some of the lesser figures got lands in
the
Outremer. But majority got nothing and left the area. Actually, this
unwillingness
to stay was one of the reasons for an ultimate failure of the whole
enterprise:
Outremer had to rely on a help from abroad to exist.
Crusaders often impoverished
themselves and their families in order to pay for their expeditions.
Richard I practically destroyed England's administrative system to get
enough
money for the Crusade.
Whatever booty they received (and the Crusades were notoriously bad for
plunder) was more than offset by their expenses. The vast majority of
Crusaders had no interest in remaining in the East, but rather
fulfilled their vows and returned home as soon as they were able.
During the interview, Prof. Madden declared: "I have no doubt that had
there been no Crusades at all that western Europe would have been
conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as southeastern Europe was."
Well, by the time of the main crusades the Muslim forces in the area
were
uncapable of a major conquest. Of course, they were quite capable to do
a lot of
damage to the Bizantian Empire.
Not sure if the Otoman Empire was capable to conquer much more land in
Europe
than it did in OTL: it's own military system was one of the factors
which prevented a
further penetration.
The earlier crusades against the Ottomans failed miserably and Lepanto
changed
very little. OTOH, wasn't coalition of 1683 (second battle of Vienna) a
crusade?
It was called a Holy League but did it have a crusading status?
3. Some accuse the Crusades of being a sort of medieval colonialism
disguised in religious trappings. Is this true and could you comment on
this?
Colonialism, if it is to have any meaning at all, requires certain
things: most importantly a mother country that funds and directs the
colonial expansion, a colonial government linked to a home government,
and policy of colonization or exploitation in the colony. The Crusades
had none of these things. No mother country supported the Crusades.
Except when crusade was led by the king or emperor.
Rather they were funded and undertaken by individuals across
Christendom for the benefit of their souls and their co-religionists
overseas. The governments in the Crusaders States were independent,
with no direct ties to any European countries. And the Europeans had
no policy of colonization or exploitation in the East. Rather, the
overriding purpose of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was to safeguard the
Holy Places and the lives of Christian pilgrims coming to visit them.
And in the later times it was to raise at least some force capable to
stop
the Ottoman aggression.
4. Is the following thesis historically defensible: Although the West
lost political control over the Holy Land and the near East after the
seventh and last Crusade, the effort Christians made from the 11th to
the 13th centuries broke the impetus of the Muslim offensive against
Europe and thus prevented the European continent from becoming Islamic
back in medieval times.
No, on several counts. The Seventh Crusade was by no means the last
Crusade. They continued well into the sixteenth century. The famous
Battle of Lepanto in 1571 was a Crusade. Catholics did lose the
mainland, but they held onto Cyprus and Rhodes for centuries. I
believe it is fair to say, however, that the Crusades did slow the
advance of Muslim Empires - namely the Ottoman Empire - into Europe
just long enough to allow Europeans to effectively defend themselves.
There was a lot of fighting outside Cyprus and Rhodes which did not
qualify
as the crusades but was important in slowing the Ottomans down.
.
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| User: "DarkAngel" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
24 Jul 2006 09:24:07 AM |
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wrote:
It is often conveniently forgotten that these 'peaceful
Muslim states' came into an existence as a result of conquest
Isn't that the way all states come into existence?
---
"Abolition of the State and the Church should be the first and
indispensable condition of the real enfranchisement of society."
- Mikhail Bakunin, "Stateless Socialism: Anarchism"
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
24 Jul 2006 10:23:40 AM |
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DarkAngel wrote:
am05@hotmail.com wrote:
It is often conveniently forgotten that these 'peaceful
Muslim states' came into an existence as a result of conquest
Isn't that the way all states come into existence?
It is. But a popular myth is that the bad blood-thirsty crusaders
attacked peaceful
Muslim states. Which is not true.
.
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| User: "Larry Swain" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
24 Jul 2006 03:04:24 PM |
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wrote:
DarkAngel wrote:
wrote:
It is often conveniently forgotten that these 'peaceful
Muslim states' came into an existence as a result of conquest
Isn't that the way all states come into existence?
It is. But a popular myth is that the bad blood-thirsty crusaders
attacked peaceful
Muslim states. Which is not true.
In the particular case of the first crusade, much of the territory taken
by the European crusaders had fairly recently been taken by conquest by
newly converted (to Islam) Turkish groups who were anything but peaceful
peoples at that point in time.
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
24 Jul 2006 03:17:34 PM |
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"Larry Swain" <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:8KudnTHEzsshuljZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@rcn.net...
am05@hotmail.com wrote:
DarkAngel wrote:
am05@hotmail.com wrote:
It is often conveniently forgotten that these 'peaceful
Muslim states' came into an existence as a result of conquest
Isn't that the way all states come into existence?
It is. But a popular myth is that the bad blood-thirsty crusaders
attacked peaceful
Muslim states. Which is not true.
In the particular case of the first crusade, much of the territory taken
by the European crusaders had fairly recently been taken by conquest by
newly converted (to Islam) Turkish groups who were anything but peaceful
peoples at that point in time.
Right, so basically the Crusaders were as bad as the Muslim Turks.
Understood.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Larry Swain" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
24 Jul 2006 11:34:58 PM |
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Denis Loubet wrote:
"Larry Swain" <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:8KudnTHEzsshuljZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@rcn.net...
am05@hotmail.com wrote:
DarkAngel wrote:
am05@hotmail.com wrote:
It is often conveniently forgotten that these 'peaceful
Muslim states' came into an existence as a result of conquest
Isn't that the way all states come into existence?
It is. But a popular myth is that the bad blood-thirsty crusaders
attacked peaceful
Muslim states. Which is not true.
In the particular case of the first crusade, much of the territory taken
by the European crusaders had fairly recently been taken by conquest by
newly converted (to Islam) Turkish groups who were anything but peaceful
peoples at that point in time.
Right, so basically the Crusaders were as bad as the Muslim Turks.
Understood.
Logic not your primary skill, I see. Were the Turks "bad" and what does
that mean? Were the Turks warriors and a war-like society? Sure. Were
the Europeans of the period? Sure. Were the Muslims? Yes. In fact
one of the reasons that both Turks and Europeans had such an easy time
of it in the early 12th century is that the Muslims were too busy with
palace intrigues that would have made the Roman empire blush. I always
find it best to look at history honestly. None of the parties involved
were "angelic" and we shouldn't whitewash them.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
25 Jul 2006 03:51:53 AM |
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"Larry Swain" <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:erKdnasQFPX7AljZnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@rcn.net...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Larry Swain" <theswain@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:8KudnTHEzsshuljZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d@rcn.net...
am05@hotmail.com wrote:
DarkAngel wrote:
am05@hotmail.com wrote:
It is often conveniently forgotten that these 'peaceful
Muslim states' came into an existence as a result of conquest
Isn't that the way all states come into existence?
It is. But a popular myth is that the bad blood-thirsty crusaders
attacked peaceful
Muslim states. Which is not true.
In the particular case of the first crusade, much of the territory taken
by the European crusaders had fairly recently been taken by conquest by
newly converted (to Islam) Turkish groups who were anything but peaceful
peoples at that point in time.
Right, so basically the Crusaders were as bad as the Muslim Turks.
Understood.
Logic not your primary skill, I see.
Odd observation, since you seem to be agreeing with me.
Were the Turks "bad" and what does that mean?
Murdering scum.
Were the Turks warriors and a war-like society? Sure. Were the Europeans
of the period? Sure. Were the Muslims? Yes.
Yes, they were all murdering scum.
In fact one of the reasons that both Turks and Europeans had such an easy
time of it in the early 12th century is that the Muslims were too busy
with palace intrigues that would have made the Roman empire blush. I
always find it best to look at history honestly. None of the parties
involved were "angelic" and we shouldn't whitewash them.
You won't get any argument from me. Sort of.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
24 Jul 2006 04:37:28 PM |
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What's so funny about peace, love and "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@lycos.com> posting the following on 23 Jul 2006
23:56:38 -0700 iin alt.atheism?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1670308/posts
The TFP's Crusade Magazine recently did an interview with accomplished
medieval historian Professor Thomas Madden of St. Louis University, to
dispel some common myths concerning the Crusades. The text of this
interview is transcribed below.
1. Some authors contend the Crusades were wars of aggression against a
peaceful Muslim world. What is your position in this matter?
It is difficult to see how anyone familiar with the sources could make
such a claim. The original goal of the First Crusade, as it was
annunciated in the papal call as well as numerous crusader charters,
was to respond to Muslim aggression against Christians in the East and
to restore those lands taken by Muslims to their Christian owners.
Which, of course, they didn't do. Instead, after taking Jeruslaem,
ther Crusaders immediately set themselves up as local lords, and began
charging ruinous taxes on the locals.
Oh, and Urban II's call to arms specifically stated that the goal was
conquest.
2. Many adversaries of the Crusades claim that, although Crusaders wore
crosses and religious symbols, their only goal was to gain riches and
territories. What is your opinion on the matter?
This is a fairly old-fashioned view, now largely rejected by scholars.
It was based on a Victorian experience with colonialism that has no
relationship at all to the medieval Crusades. We now know that
crusading was almost never profitable. Crusaders often impoverished
themselves and their families in order to pay for their expeditions.
Whatever booty they received (and the Crusades were notoriously bad for
plunder) was more than offset by their expenses. The vast majority of
Crusaders had no interest in remaining in the East, but rather
fulfilled their vows and returned home as soon as they were able.
During the interview, Prof. Madden declared: "I have no doubt that had
there been no Crusades at all that western Europe would have been
conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as southeastern Europe was."
Never mind that looting was the way warriors paid for their campaigns.
The Crusaders were in search of riches, and in fact looted
Constantinople - a Christian city - when getting to the Holy Land
proved too difficult.
While some crusaders had an honest religious belief in the cause, the
vast majority were seeking wealth and power... or just a good war.
3. Some accuse the Crusades of being a sort of medieval colonialism
disguised in religious trappings. Is this true and could you comment on
this?
Colonialism, if it is to have any meaning at all, requires certain
things: most importantly a mother country that funds and directs the
colonial expansion, a colonial government linked to a home government,
and policy of colonization or exploitation in the colony. The Crusades
had none of these things. No mother country supported the Crusades.
Rather they were funded and undertaken by individuals across
Christendom for the benefit of their souls and their co-religionists
overseas. The governments in the Crusaders States were independent,
with no direct ties to any European countries. And the Europeans had
no policy of colonization or exploitation in the East. Rather, the
overriding purpose of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was to safeguard the
Holy Places and the lives of Christian pilgrims coming to visit them.
ROTFLMAO!!! They were incredibly tied to the European states by the
only ties that mattered - bloodlines!
Godfrey of Bouillon, leader of the Furst Crusade and First King of
Jerusalem, was realted by blood or marriage to numerous Frankish
kings, Richard I, and Emperor Henry IV. The rest were no less
entangled.
As for tiesd with the mother countires, trade and pilgrams were the
main currencies. During the period, pepper first came to the courts
of Western Europe (along with a new numerical concept: zero) and
Venitian merchants grew rich making the run to Tyre.
4. Is the following thesis historically defensible: Although the West
lost political control over the Holy Land and the near East after the
seventh and last Crusade, the effort Christians made from the 11th to
the 13th centuries broke the impetus of the Muslim offensive against
Europe and thus prevented the European continent from becoming Islamic
back in medieval times.
No, on several counts. The Seventh Crusade was by no means the last
Crusade. They continued well into the sixteenth century. The famous
Battle of Lepanto in 1571 was a Crusade. Catholics did lose the
mainland, but they held onto Cyprus and Rhodes for centuries. I
believe it is fair to say, however, that the Crusades did slow the
advance of Muslim Empires - namely the Ottoman Empire - into Europe
just long enough to allow Europeans to effectively defend themselves.
I have no doubt that had there been no Crusades at all that western
Europe would have been conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as
southeastern Europe was.
Right, because without the Crusades the Holy Roman Empire would never
have thought to arm after the fall of Byzantium. Sure.
5. The Fourth Crusade is one of the most maligned of the Crusades. This
is the Crusade you have studied in depth. Could you comment on some of
the myths about the Fourth Crusade?
The biggest myth is that the Crusade was purposely diverted from its
original goal - either by Pope Innocent III or Doge Enrico Dandolo
- in order to conquer Constantinople. In fact, on several occasions
the pope forbade the crusaders to go to Constantinople and once they
were there, forbade them to attack the city. It is also not true that
the Crusaders were led to Constantinople by a hatred of the Greeks or
an envy of their empire. Instead, they came to Constantinople at the
invitation of a Greek claimant to the throne, who promised to help them
on their Crusade. The Crusaders only attacked Constantinople after
their Greek friend double-crossed them, refusing to pay their reward or
to join the Crusade. Even then, they only initiated hostilities when
the Greeks murdered their former friend and ordered the Crusaders to
leave immediately without reward, support, or even food. The Fourth
Crusade is a tragedy, but it is one in which the Greeks and Latins both
played important parts.
Ladies and gentlemen, your warriors of God. A crawling bunch of
mercenaries motivated by loot.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Darryl" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
25 Jul 2006 02:25:17 PM |
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Ladies and gentlemen, your warriors of God. A crawling bunch of
mercenaries motivated by loot.
Amen!
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| User: "DarkAngel" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
25 Jul 2006 09:58:28 PM |
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Douglas Berry a =E9crit :
Ladies and gentlemen, your warriors of God. A crawling bunch of
mercenaries motivated by loot.
And if you look at the current crop of 'men of God' from the Moral
Majority and their ilk, you'll see they can certainly compete with
those ancient Christian warriors in the area of Mammon worship.
---
"Work and pray, you can live on hay
You'll get pie in the sky when you die
(That's a lie!)"
- Joe Hill
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
25 Jul 2006 01:34:28 PM |
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Douglas Berry wrote:
It is difficult to see how anyone familiar with the sources could make
such a claim. The original goal of the First Crusade, as it was
annunciated in the papal call as well as numerous crusader charters,
was to respond to Muslim aggression against Christians in the East and
to restore those lands taken by Muslims to their Christian owners.
Which, of course, they didn't do.
Simple "they did" or "they did not" are primitve answers. They _did_ to
a certain
degree decrease pressure on the Bizantian Empire from the Seldjuk
Turks.
Restoring the lands to the Christian owners could not mean, in
practical terms,
their restoration to the people who owned them before the Muslim
conquest.
OTOH, these lands were not restored to the Bizantian Empire, which
could be
considered a legal 'owner' of these territories. But the lands were
restored to the
Christinas so, depending on your inclinations, you may claim that they
did or that
they did not.
Instead, after taking Jeruslaem,
ther Crusaders immediately set themselves up as local lords, and began
charging ruinous taxes on the locals.
Only a tiny fraction of them settled in the Outremer and, as far as the
taxes were
involved, none of the previous owners of these territories turned them
into a tax-free
zone.
Oh, and Urban II's call to arms specifically stated that the goal was
conquest.
With the chances that the present owners (who conquered these lands
earlier)
would simply give them away out of a courtesy being extremely slim,
these lands
could be obtained only by conquest.
But the important point (which you are obviously missing) is that these
lands had
been earlier conquered by the Muslims and that by the time of the
crusades there
was a continued Muslim expansion westward. In XVII century the Muslims
(Ottomans)
owned the Balkans, most of Hungary and modern Rumania and Moldavia,
their
armies reached Vienna and invaded Poland and their navy dominated a big
part of
the Mediterranian.
The question is not if the 1crusade was an unprovoked western
aggression but if
crusades were a response on the Muslim aggression and conquest.
[]
While some crusaders had an honest religious belief in the cause, the
vast majority were seeking wealth and power... or just a good war.
I wonder from which source did you get that information on proportions
of the
true believers and the power-seekers.
Most of the crusaders were of a too low rank to expect any power or any
wealth
capable to cover their expences but, anyway, at the times in question
one thing
did not exclude another.
Right, because without the Crusades the Holy Roman Empire would never
have thought to arm after the fall of Byzantium. Sure.
As a matter of fact, it did not. One of the very few ocassions when
something was
done on the 'imperial' level happened, IIRC, during the reign of
Charles V (well after
the fall of Bizantian Empire) when the subsidies had been voted to
repell a possible
Ottoman invasion. But these subsidies had been granted for a single
season only.
HRE was not an entity capable of acting as a single body.
Hungary was fighting mostly on her own and so did Venetian Republic. At
some
point Spain joined the fight but "HRE's" involvement mostly amounted to
the
Habsburgs' troops (as those under Montecucculi in 1661-64).
Even the coalition which defeated the Ottomans at the 2nd siege of
Vienna was not
an army of the HRE: it was lead by the King of Poland and the Polish
troops
constituted a big part of it.
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| User: "Eris" |
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| Title: Re: Dispelling Myths About The Crusades |
25 Jul 2006 12:18:50 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:37:28 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@lycos.com> posting the following on 23 Jul 2006
23:56:38 -0700 iin alt.atheism?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1670308/posts
The TFP's Crusade Magazine recently did an interview with accomplished
medieval historian Professor Thomas Madden of St. Louis University, to
dispel some common myths concerning the Crusades. The text of this
interview is transcribed below.
1. Some authors contend the Crusades were wars of aggression against a
peaceful Muslim world. What is your position in this matter?
It is difficult to see how anyone familiar with the sources could make
such a claim. The original goal of the First Crusade, as it was
annunciated in the papal call as well as numerous crusader charters,
was to respond to Muslim aggression against Christians in the East and
to restore those lands taken by Muslims to their Christian owners.
Which, of course, they didn't do. Instead, after taking Jeruslaem,
ther Crusaders immediately set themselves up as local lords, and began
charging ruinous taxes on the locals.
Oh, and Urban II's call to arms specifically stated that the goal was
conquest.
2. Many adversaries of the Crusades claim that, although Crusaders wore
crosses and religious symbols, their only goal was to gain riches and
territories. What is your opinion on the matter?
This is a fairly old-fashioned view, now largely rejected by scholars.
It was based on a Victorian experience with colonialism that has no
relationship at all to the medieval Crusades. We now know that
crusading was almost never profitable. Crusaders often impoverished
themselves and their families in order to pay for their expeditions.
Whatever booty they received (and the Crusades were notoriously bad for
plunder) was more than offset by their expenses. The vast majority of
Crusaders had no interest in remaining in the East, but rather
fulfilled their vows and returned home as soon as they were able.
During the interview, Prof. Madden declared: "I have no doubt that had
there been no Crusades at all that western Europe would have been
conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as southeastern Europe was."
Never mind that looting was the way warriors paid for their campaigns.
The Crusaders were in search of riches, and in fact looted
Constantinople - a Christian city - when getting to the Holy Land
proved too difficult.
While some crusaders had an honest religious belief in the cause, the
vast majority were seeking wealth and power... or just a good war.
3. Some accuse the Crusades of being a sort of medieval colonialism
disguised in religious trappings. Is this true and could you comment on
this?
Colonialism, if it is to have any meaning at all, requires certain
things: most importantly a mother country that funds and directs the
colonial expansion, a colonial government linked to a home government,
and policy of colonization or exploitation in the colony. The Crusades
had none of these things. No mother country supported the Crusades.
Rather they were funded and undertaken by individuals across
Christendom for the benefit of their souls and their co-religionists
overseas. The governments in the Crusaders States were independent,
with no direct ties to any European countries. And the Europeans had
no policy of colonization or exploitation in the East. Rather, the
overriding purpose of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was to safeguard the
Holy Places and the lives of Christian pilgrims coming to visit them.
ROTFLMAO!!! They were incredibly tied to the European states by the
only ties that mattered - bloodlines!
Godfrey of Bouillon, leader of the Furst Crusade and First King of
Jerusalem, was realted by blood or marriage to numerous Frankish
kings, Richard I, and Emperor Henry IV. The rest were no less
entangled.
As for tiesd with the mother countires, trade and pilgrams were the
main currencies. During the period, pepper first came to the courts
of Western Europe (along with a new numerical concept: zero) and
Venitian merchants grew rich making the run to Tyre.
4. Is the following thesis historically defensible: Although the West
lost political control over the Holy Land and the near East after the
seventh and last Crusade, the effort Christians made from the 11th to
the 13th centuries broke the impetus of the Muslim offensive against
Europe and thus prevented the European continent from becoming Islamic
back in medieval times.
No, on several counts. The Seventh Crusade was by no means the last
Crusade. They continued well into the sixteenth century. The famous
Battle of Lepanto in 1571 was a Crusade. Catholics did lose the
mainland, but they held onto Cyprus and Rhodes for centuries. I
believe it is fair to say, however, that the Crusades did slow the
advance of Muslim Empires - namely the Ottoman Empire - into Europe
just long enough to allow Europeans to effectively defend themselves.
I have no doubt that had there been no Crusades at all that western
Europe would have been conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as
southeastern Europe was.
Right, because without the Crusades the Holy Roman Empire would never
have thought to arm after the fall of Byzantium. Sure.
5. The Fourth Crusade is one of the most maligned of the Crusades. This
is the Crusade you have studied in depth. Could you comment on some of
the myths about the Fourth Crusade?
The biggest myth is that the Crusade was purposely diverted from its
original goal - either by Pope Innocent III or Doge Enrico Dandolo
- in order to conquer Constantinople. In fact, on several occasions
the pope forbade the crusaders to go to Constantinople and once they
were there, forbade them to attack the city. It is also not true that
the Crusaders were led to Constantinople by a hatred of the Greeks or
an envy of their empire. Instead, they came to Constantinople at the
invitation of a Greek claimant to the throne, who promised to help them
on their Crusade. The Crusaders only attacked Constantinople after
their Greek friend double-crossed them, refusing to pay their reward or
to join the Crusade. Even then, they only initiated hostilities when
the Greeks murdered their former friend and ordered the Crusaders to
leave immediately without reward, support, or even food. The Fourth
Crusade is a tragedy, but it is one in which the Greeks and Latins both
played important parts.
Ladies and gentlemen, your warriors of God. A crawling bunch of
mercenaries motivated by loot.
Doug I am starting to like you.
By the way, Red Cross refused to take my blood, not enough
chromosomes.
.
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