Dispensational Effects

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Dave"
Date:	16 Aug 2007 02:13:12 PM
Object:	Dispensational Effects

This message is about Dispensationalism and what it
means to the Scriptures and what effects on Scripture
the Dispensationalist doctrines have.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the Apostles believed
in a return of Christ, within their generation. And it is
because Futruists/Dispnesationalists know this to be a
fact, that they end up having to play with the words of
Scripture. Half the time, I don't think they even realize
that they're doing it. But how many times do you read
a letter in the New Testament, in which the writer says
something like...
"...and so WE know that to US it was given"
....and you start thinking about how the 'we' and 'us'
means, "Me and the other Christians living today"?
And yet, you say there is no vanity in your belief system.
In reality, the writer is writing to a person, or church in
the 1st century and the "we" and "us" statements apply
to the writer and to those he's writing to.
Now one can respond by saying, "Scripture applies today
as well", but they would be trying to avoid my point.
There are many things in the Bible that are about their
time, period and when someone says "we" to someone
they are writing to, they are speaking about themselves
and those they are writing to, period! The writer did
not even realize that his letter would survive all of
these years! In fact, we can be sure that many letters
did not and one is even mentioned in the NT! So no,
your argument will not work! You are operating on
sheer ego, pride and vanity and denying common sense
in the process and also violating every rule that you
would insist on with any and every other ancient text!
That makes you dishonest, not Godly!
Many Dispy's say, "Jesus is coming soon!". But what
do they mean by that word, "soon"?
Well, when THEY say it in a sentence in a discussion today,
about OUR time, they mean it exactly the way it reads.
But when they see it in the Bible, then they redefine it to
mean, "maybe thousands of years off, but when it happens,
it'll happen quickly, because it's about us and our time".
Of course, they'll later deny that they're being vain and
placing it in their time today, but it's too late! They
already said it, when they said, "Jesus is coming soon".
And when they try to back out of that, they only prove
my point that they are dishonest with words! (:
And why isn't this "special Bible speak 'soon' definition",
the definition that they use in every day life? When they
tell someone that something will happen soon and that
those same people will be around to see it within their
lifetime today, why don't they mean that "maybe it'll
happen thousands of years from now, but when it finally
happens, it'll happen quickly and I didn't REALLY mean
that YOU would see it, even though I said that"?
After all, that's the rule they apply to Jesus and the
Apostles. So why not to themselves, when they
speak or write to someone? Why not write to
someone in jail that they are trying to encourage
and say...
"Don't worry, I spoke to your lawyer and you'll be out soon.
Of course, by that I really mean that you'll probably die
there and maybe one of your descendants will get out."
And why not take it even farther? Why not go to someone
in a hospital and say...
"Don't worry, you're going to live a long time! Of course,
by that I mean that you'll probably die tomorrow."
No? Then why do it with the Bible?
And why insist that you don't do that, when it is clear
that you do?
Because you know just how ridiculous it sounds! And
it sounds no less ridiculous when you say it about that
same word "soon", when it is used in the Bible!
And did you notice that I had to add the second sentence
to explain that I was using "opposite speak", like you
Dispy's claim Jesus and the Apostles did? Now can any
of you Dispy's show me where Jesus and the Apostles
said that they were doing that? No? Then why do
YOU do it to their writings? And why do you claim
that the Bible says what you claim and then asked to
show where, trying to slither out of it and then still
run around claiming that the Bible does say it? And
why do you then call me the liar, when I point that
out to you? And why won't you admit that you're
the liar?
Yes, it seems that when they open their Bibles, then all of
the sudden, words mean the opposite of what they say
and these people actually pretend that this makes sense
and they're ridiculous enough to pretend that it will make
sense to everyone else and that the unbelievers, "just
don't understand Bible time speak". So they claim that
"1,000 years equals one day with God", which of course,
would bind God to linear time, which these same people
claim that God isn't bound to. It never occurs to them,
that a writer used a figure of speech, to tell people to
be patient. You know, like, "I know this day seems like
it'll never end, but it will". No, it couldn't be something
like that, even though we know that God isn't bound by
time and saying that He has "1,000 year days" would be
to contradict that. But hey, who cares about that? Who
cares about contradictions, right? No harm in having
them and then claiming not to, right?
Dispensationalism has been the cause of even Christians
claiming that the inspired writers of the NT were wrong.
That the Apostles were wrong in their expectations of
a return of Christ within their generation. When you
begin to think that the Apostles were wrong about
something that they said, which is found in Scripture,
then your doctrine is wrong and it is based on vanity!
The vanity that places you above them and says that
no one could get it right until today! And we all KNOW
that we have heard these arguments and that Futurists
DO BELIEVE THEM!
Now you can lie all you want to about it, but don't think
you're fooling me and don't be foolish enough to think
that you're even fooling yourself! (:
And did you know that many preachers have left the
pulpit because of the Dispy doctrine, not knowing
that they can question the doctrine and it doesn't
mean that they're questioning God, nor His word?
Many preachers who left the pulpit, left specifically
because of Matthew 24:34. They just couldn't lie
to themselves anymore, nor to their congregation!
I was at the same point. But God would not have that
and so, put upon my heart to investigate. And so I did.
You can read about what I went through here...
http://tinyurl.com/ytfqe3
Yes, I also started off as a Futurist. But one who knew
something didn't sit right with it and who ended up
just avoiding the subject as much as possible when
preaching, because I knew that there was a myriad
of contradictions within even the same camps! (:
Many Christians today do prefer to believe that the writers
were wrong about Jesus returning within that generation,
when shown the undeniable fact that they did believe that
Jesus was returning within the same generation and when
shown that yes, both Jesus and the Apostles did indeed
teach that and the undeniable fact that Jesus said He would!
But instead of questioning their own doctrine, they claim
that Jesus and the Apostles were wrong about that and
that they are right today. And yet, they hypocritically
claim that they believe that the word of God is inerrant
and claim that this issue is not that important anyway!
The truth is, that if our Lord was wrong, we might as well
give up on our faith.
The truth is, that if they were wrong about the second most
discussed subject in the New Testament, then we cannot
trust anything they said! We cannot even trust that Jesus
was crucified and rose again!
But the Dispy's choose to make themselves the judge of
God's word and to tell us what is true and what isn't. (:
Maybe it should have occurred to these people, that they
were taking symbolic language and trying to make it
physically literal. God came already in the clouds, in
Isaiah 19:1, a FULFILLED prophecy, but no one physically
saw Him.
"The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord rides on
a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; The idols of
Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt
will melt in its midst." - Isaiah 19:1
Yet when it comes to what Jesus said in Matthew 24,
you insist it's physically literal, rather than comparing
Scripture with Scripture and abandoning your false
belief about it!
"Compare Scripture with Scripture."
....they say and tell me how I don't. Yet when the Dispy's
are shown what the Scriptures really say, when compared,
then, all of the sudden, they don't need to compare any
more and tell me how it's symbolic in Isaiah, but it's still
literal in Matthew! And when asked why I should ignore
what Isaiah said, of course, they have no answer and so,
tell me what a liar I am and how I'm denying the word
of God. <chuckle>
So what is the rule here? To use the language the same
way that the Bible shows it was used? Or to say that it
was symbolic then, but because it's about us today (so
you claim), now it's physically literal? That seems to me,
like pure vanity!
But go ahead and keep thinking that it's all about you
and your time. And go ahead and ignore what has been
posted here and attack me all you can about whatever
subjects you can dredge up, thinking that your distraction
from the subject proves that you have refuted something!
It's what you're good at, right? It's what Futurists have
been doing all along!
But for me, it all boils down to, "What did Jesus SAY?".
Matthew 16:27-28 [LITV]
27) For the Son of Man is ABOUT TO COME with His angels
in the glory of His Father. And then He will give reward to
each according to his practice.
"And, behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is
with Me, to give to each as his work is." - Rev 22:12
28) Truly I say to you, There are some STANDING HERE
who will NOT taste of death, never, until they see the Son
of Man coming in His Kingdom.
You see, it doesn't say, "the Son of man will come" (v27),
as in some distant future thing and that is simply a bad
translation.
The Greek word there is "mello", which actually means,
"be(ing) about to be". It speaks of immanency. And
lest we try to play word games and claim that "imminent"
means, "could be far off, but when it happens, it'll happen
quickly" (which we all know isn't what "imminent" means,
but it gets redefined as that when people open their
Bibles), let us pay attention to what the Greek really says.
It actually says, "about to be". It was about to happen!
And let us notice what else Jesus said, since He also said
that there were some STANDING THERE that would NOT
die, before He returned in His Kingdom!
Let us also note the comparison to Rev 22:12, which no one
argues isn't about the Second Coming. We all know that it
is. But do we take the time to note the similarity in words
with Mat 16:27 above?
Mat - He is about to come.
Rev - He is coming quickly.
Mat - He will give His reward.
Rev - His reward is with Him.
Mat - He will give these rewards to them according
to their practice.
Rev - He will give these rewards to each according
to their practice.
It is clear by these passages, that Jesus was telling
His disciples that His return would not be far off and
that some (at least one, but not most) standing there
would still be alive when He returned. There is no
way around these facts, if one is honest with oneself
about what the Bible says in these passages.
And lest someone say it's about some other event,
let us remember that it is quoted by Futurists as if
it were speaking of His Second Coming, until this
problem is pointed out, which is true, but it does
not leave you the option of now claiming that it
was about the Transfiguration, nor Pentecost,
which is the fall back position of the Futurists,
when they are shown what He actually said.
But let's take a quick look at those events and remember
that if it is about one of those events, then *all* of the
factors much match!
Transfiguration: That was only days later and they were
all alive (Jesus said only "some" would be). There was
no coming in the glory of His Father and no angels with
Him and there was no rewarding according to their works.
Pentecost: That was right after His Ascension and only
one had died (Jesus said that only "some" would be alive,
not "most"). There was no coming in the glory of His
Father and no angels with Him and there was no rewarding
according to their works.
So neither of those events fits the requirements to be
considered as a fulfillment of that event. It is clear that
both Matthew 16:27-28 & Revelation 22:12 are talking
about the same event and that His return was to be quick,
before all of the disciples (later called "Apostles") died.
Now this is the moment of truth for you. This is when
you get to define whether or not you are handling
Scripture honestly and rightly dividing the word of truth.
I know that you and others reading this see it. So I know
that you know that what is stated about these passages
above is correct, since I did not add to the word, but only
repeated it and compared it to itself. So it isn't a matter
of interpretation here. It is a matter of believing Him.
So will you believe Him? Or will you rebel against it,
because it doesn't fit your presupposed doctrine?
Which should we do? Filter our doctrines through Scripture?
Or filter Scripture through our doctrine? You must decide
this for yourself.
So it is your choice now, whether to believe the Scriptures
or not, since the wording is clear and is not mysterious.
By the unbelieving and liberal skeptic it has been stated
that Jesus "failed" and was "mistaken" in His promises to
return in the lifetime and generation of His contemporaries.
A Hebrew rabbi writes,
"At first, Christians expected that this "second coming"
would come very shortly... in their lifetime. When their
prayer was not answered... ...the early Christians were
forced to radically alter the Jewish concept of the Messiah
in order to explain Jesus� failure" Pinchas Stolper,.ed.
The Real Messiah (Reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973,
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregation. New York: 1973,
pp. 32-33).
The professing �atheist�, Bertrand Russell gave the
following reason why he was not a Christian,
"He (Jesus) certainly thought that His second coming would
occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people
who were living at that time. There are a great many texts
that prove that and there are a lot of places where it is
quite clear that He believed that His coming would happen
during the lifetime of many then living" Bertrand Russell,
Why I Am Not a Christian (New York: Simon and Scheuster,
1957, pp. 16).
"It still looks as though a monstrous illusion lies at
the basis of the whole mission of Jesus, the illusion
of something immediately impending which actually
never has come to pass [emphasis MJS] (Martin Debelius,
Jesus (Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 1939). Trans. C.B.
Hedrich & F.C. Grant (Philadelphia: Westminster Press,
1949).
"He (Jesus) also proclaimed the imminent arrival on earth
of the Kingdom of God - a Golden Age for Jews. This
proclamation turned out to be an error" [parentheses &
emphasis MJS] (Clayton Sullivan, Rethinking Realized
Eschatology, p. 118.)
Rudolf Bultmann, a liberal, wrote, "Of course, Jesus was
mistaken in thinking that the world was destined to come
to an end" (Rudolf Bultmann, Primitive Christianity in its
Contemporary Setting. (Trans. by R.H. Fuller). Cleveland,
Ohio: William Collins Publisher, Inc. , 1956, pp. 92).
And "Jesus expectation of the near end of the world turned
out to be an illusion" (Rudolf Bultmann, Theology of the
New Testament, Vol. 1, pp. 22). Dale C. Allison, Jr.
commenting on these texts feels that "conservative critics�
need to "acknowledge the humiliating discovery that Jesus
proclaimed the divinely wrought near end of the world"
[emphasis MJS] (Allison Dale, Jr., Journal of Biblical
Literature, Vol. pp. 651).
The Lord has given these men over to their confusion.
Some of these modern liberals still try to hang on to some
kind or form of Christianity while others are simply but
"scholarly" confused and have grown cynical. For example,
Clayton Sullivan believes
"...Jesus, mistaken proclaimer of the Kingdom of God,
carries a comforting implication: belief accuracy or
doctrinal rectitude is not a prerequisite for divine
approval" (Sullivan, Clayton, Rethinking Realized
Eschatology, Mercer University Press: 1988, p.118)
While others like Dale Allison, Jr., find that "the
eschatological Jesus is theologically troubling"
but he states,
"The truth, however, is like God: we can run from it,
but it is always there. I, myself do not know what to
make of the eschatological Jesus. I am, for theological
reasons, unedified by the thought that, in a matter so
seemingly crucial, a lie has been walking around for
two thousand years while the truth has only recently
put on its shoes. But there it is" (Journal of Biblical
Literature, Vol. , p. 668).
The "truth" being the alleged discovery that this mistaken
and purely "...human Jesus, is just like one of us, one
who holds values that are very close to our ideological
commitments, a Jesus who is a social reformer and who
attacks patriarchal orders, a Jesus who, as a real human
person, can stand as an example and inspiration for
worthy causes" [emphasis MJS] (Ibid. Allison quoting
Koester in footnote 82 on p. 668).
In other words, Jesus was a good moral teacher and
"inspiration" to us all, but he wasn�t God like he claimed
because He was "mistaken" and failed to usher in the
kingdom when he promised.
This purely "human Jesus" these men claim to trust in
can�t save them from their sins and they won�t find any
"comforting implications" in him in this life or in the
next!
The error in view here is the conclusion that:
1) Christ did not come within the time frame He promised
the apostolic generation
And...
2) Jesus was just a good moral teacher and not God like
He claimed to be and is.
And both of these conclusions are based on the Futurist/
Dispensational view of the Bible. Maybe it should occur
to these Futurist/Dispensationalists, that to take the
clear and simple statements and try to make them
metaphors/symcolic, because they want to make the
super fantastic, sci-fi sounding statements physically
literal, is the opposite of the approach that should be
taken and is even the opposite of what they themselves
profess to do. Of course, in reality, they do as described.
Atheists and non-believing Jews are not making up
stories. They are ridiculing you based on your own
words. But they don't know that your Futurist view
is not the only one and so, they take your view as
if it is "the Christian view and the only way to believe
if you're a Christian", because it helps them to ridicule
you and they ridicule you based on your view.
Has it ever occurred to you that so many can ridicule
your claims, because they actually are ridiculous?
You people claim that "this generation" means
anything and everything, to avoid admitting to what
Jesus said and yet, you jump up and shout "Amen!",
when the preacher says today that "This generation
is in the last days.". Hypocrisy! And so, they laugh
at you every day!
Now tell me, when have you seen an atheist ridiculing
the Preterist point of view? Oh, they'll ridicule us for
believing that Jesus is the Son of God, but when have
you seen them tearing apart our doctrinal stance on
what Jesus said? You simply don't! In fact, I posted
an example of atheist ridicule here and the guy even
made a quick statement about Preterists. And what
did he say? That unlike the Futurists, we view the
return of Christ as being a spiritual statement about
Him riding the clouds (see Isaiah 19:1, a fulfilled
prophecy) and said, "They do have some support
from the Old Testament.".
You know the Old Testament, right guys? It's that
set of books in the Bible that you keep ignoring
when it contradicts your literalist view.
And let me ask you, Dispy-Futurists, how great do you
think you make God look, when you admit that you do
believe that Jesus failed? Oh, you might object to that
at first, but it has been admitted to by more than one
of you, after examination!
The reality is, that you believe that Jesus came to set up
a physical kingdom on Earth and was rejected and so,
was crucified and will come back later to do it.
Now of course, we won't even get into the fact that you
are saying that the people decide when the kingdom is
set up and we won't bother with the fact that you are
contradicting yourself, since you claim that when He
does it in the future, that it won't matter whether
all of the people want it or not, since there will be
sinner on the Earth.
No, we won't bother with those things. But we will
bother with pointing out that to believe this, means
that you have nullified Biblical prophecies about the
Christ and His coming. You know, like when David
prophesied that the Christ would be pierced, long
before crucifixion was even invented. And then
there's that whole Isaiah 53 thing, about being led
as a sheep to the slaughter.
Now you can try to make up any stories you want to,
to avoid admitting this, which will only prove that
you are as dishonest as I have said you are. Or, you
can realize that yes indeed, your doctrine does state
that Jesus failed and makes the crucifixion and
salvation by faith alone a consolation prize! (:
What's that, little Dispy's? I'm pissing you off?
Good! It's about time somebody did! :) It is when
you start to get angry about it, that maybe you'll
begin to actually look at it! And then maybe
you'll do something about it. :)
Now go ahead and tell me how you believe the Bible
and that it says what you claim it says. And then
proceed to ignore the responses. But most important
of all, make sure to claim that you did respond on point!
And as a special bonus, make sure to through in a few
jabs here and there and to tell a few lies about what
I said and when asked to quote me saying it, just start
asking questions! And then when I ask you again to
quote me saying what you claimed I said, now make
sure to claim that I'm scared to answer your question
and pretend that you didn't lie.
Oh and one more thing! Whatever you do, always
pretend that all of these things you Dispy's do, don't
matter! Just make sure to appear polite, because
the others are indeed stupid enough to think that
means the you're automatically right! You see guys,
it's okay to murder someone if you want to! As
long as you smile while you do it! You cannot do
any wrong, as long as you remain polite and a lie
becomes a truth, if you say it politely! Got it? Good!
In reality, it's an excuse for people to ignore a truth
and for other to gang up on the one who spoke the
truth and to find any reason to attack them, because
said truth got them angry, because they know they're
guilty, but refuse to give up their lie!
Of course, you can always now pretend you're not
a Dispy. But we all know better, don't we.
Folks can pretend all they want. But don't wonder why
my messages are harsh sometimes. You deserve it!
I have no respect for people who lie in such obvious
manners and yet, when caught red handed, become
"paper tigers" here on usenet and try to pretend
they don't know it! It's time to shake up the churches
and shake the garbage out of them!
Kindness is fine. But honesty must be had as well
and sometimes, firmness is what's called for. And
unfortunately, in usenet, most of what we have is
liars who no one will listen to in real life and so,
they come here. Of course, no one will listen to
them here either and no one will bow and worship
them as they think they should be worshipped.
But you see, in person, they could never say and do
the things they do here. People would not tolerate it.
But here in usenet, they become paper tigers and
since almost everyone else here has the same goal
as they do, they join them in attacking the few
who actually aren't here for self glory and vain
doctrines of men.
Sad and pathetic! (:
--
A liberal is someone who will give away everything
except his/her own possessions.
.

User: "randy"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	21 Aug 2007 10:22:49 AM

"Pastor Dave"

There is plenty of doubt about that. They might have guessed
or expected or suspected that Christ would come back in
their generation. But they certainly didn't have to have
"faith" in that! Christ had not said that he would return in
his own generation. He only said that the temple would be
demolished in his own generation. Regarding his return and
the end of the age Jesus only said that these were events in
the hands of God, who alone knew when they would come about.
Jesus declared that the primary mission was to extend the
gospel around the world "to every nation." At the same time
Jesus declared that an age-long Diaspora of the Jews would
begin to take place at the time of the temple's destruction.
So it is highly doubtful that Jesus' disciples who lived
beyond the destruction of the temple "believed" that Jesus
would return in their generation. In fact it became highly
doubtful as Jesus' disciples got older and older and
realized that the gospel mission had only begun, and when
they realized that Jesus' prophecies concerning the Jews
were only beginning to come about.
randy
.

User: "Mistylien"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	23 Aug 2007 03:49:19 AM

"randy" <rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:va-dnYgz6KzQnlbbnZ2dnUVZ_qWtnZ2d@wavecable.com...

"Pastor Dave"

This message is about Dispensationalism and what it
means to the Scriptures and what effects on Scripture
the Dispensationalist doctrines have.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the Apostles believed
in a return of Christ, within their generation...

NOt only did they believe it but they lived it.
See Luke 24 ff.
and John 20

For goodness sakes he did return it was called the resurrection!
M,

Jesus declared that the primary mission was to extend the gospel around the world "to
every nation." At the same time Jesus declared that an age-long Diaspora of the Jews
would begin to take place at the time of the temple's destruction. So it is highly
doubtful that Jesus' disciples who lived beyond the destruction of the temple "believed"
that Jesus would return in their generation. In fact it became highly doubtful as Jesus'
disciples got older and older and realized that the gospel mission had only begun, and
when they realized that Jesus' prophecies concerning the Jews were only beginning to
come about.
randy

User: "randy"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	23 Aug 2007 01:42:55 PM

"Mistylien"
"randy"

There is no doubt whatsoever that the Apostles believed
in a return of Christ, within their generation...

NOt only did they believe it but they lived it.
See Luke 24 ff.
and John 20

No they didn't. They were told to live in anticipation of
his return. They were told to live as if his coming was
right at the door. What does this mean? Does this mean that
they were to expect him at any moment? No. Rather, Jesus
wanted his disciples to view his return as the most
important thing in human history. He wantetd them to view
his coming in glory as the next big thing on God's prophetic
calendar, determining the important of all preliminary
developments. And he wanted us to base all of our current
decisions on how this might relate to his return to judge
the quick and the dead.

For goodness sakes he did return it was called the
resurrection!

I'm not doubting the fact of his resurrection. I do
question, however, your association of the resurrection with
his return! After all, it was *after* his resurrection that
he ascended to heaven. And it was at that time that the
angel said he would come "in like manner."
randy
.

User: "Mistylien"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	24 Aug 2007 12:48:30 AM

"randy" <rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:49adnYnfpPuoSFDbnZ2dnUVZ_oqhnZ2d@wavecable.com...

"Mistylien"
"randy"

There is no doubt whatsoever that the Apostles believed
in a return of Christ, within their generation...

NOt only did they believe it but they lived it.
See Luke 24 ff.
and John 20

No they didn't. They were told to live in anticipation of his return. They were told to
live as if his coming was right at the door. What does this mean? Does this mean that
they were to expect him at any moment? No. Rather, Jesus wanted his disciples to view
his return as the most important thing in human history. He wantetd them to view his
coming in glory as the next big thing on God's prophetic calendar, determining the
important of all preliminary developments. And he wanted us to base all of our current
decisions on how this might relate to his return to judge the quick and the dead.

So you can not look up the Bible Passages?
Show me Book Chapter and Verse where you get your infomation
from please.

For goodness sakes he did return it was called the resurrection!

I'm not doubting the fact of his resurrection. I do question, however, your association
of the resurrection with his return! After all, it was *after* his resurrection that he
ascended to heaven. And it was at that time that the angel said he would come "in like
manner."
randy

Oh yes he was Ascended into the sky and Hid by the clouds.
However that was after he showed himself to those that believed
he would come back some time after His Crucifixion.
even though he talked to them they had no idea it was Him
that they were talking to until he opened their eyes of understanding
so they could see HIM.
This caused the Rapture in their hearts.
M,

User: "randy"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	24 Aug 2007 12:46:22 PM

"Mistylien"
"randy"

...They were told to live in anticipation of his return.
They were told to live as if his coming was right at the
door. What does this mean? Does this mean that they were
to expect him at any moment? No. Rather, Jesus wanted his
disciples to view his return as the most important thing
in human history....

So you can not look up the Bible Passages? Show me Book
Chapter and Verse where you get your infomation
from please.

That Jesus is the next big thing to take place on God's
calendar? You will find it in the book of Revelation, where
the entire book begins with a prolepsis (a vision of
something as if it is already happening even though it has
yet to happen)...
Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye
will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of
the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is
and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
But you will notice that even though Jesus is viewed as if
he is already coming, there are many things later mentioned
that have to happen *before* this event takes place. The
meaning is self-explanatory. All the events described in the
book of Revelation are designed to lead up to Christ's
coming. We are to see Christ's coming as the central reason
for history itself. It's the thing we are to anticipate, to
keep ourselves ready for.
And there are many passages dealing with how we are to keep
ourselves ready for Christ's coming. We are to keep
ourselves spotless from sin, not in case Jesus comes
tomorrow, but simply because we are *always* to remain ready
for the coming Kingdom, so that we will *always* live in
righteousness, and not in sin. If we believe in a coming
Kingdom of righteousness, we should *always* want to live in
righteousness, and not just immediately before Christ's
appearing!

For goodness sakes he did return it was called the
resurrection!

I'm not doubting the fact of his resurrection. I do
question, however, your association of the resurrection
with his return! After all, it was *after* his
resurrection that he ascended to heaven. And it was at
that time that the angel said he would come "in like
manner."

Oh yes he was Ascended into the sky and Hid by the clouds.
However that was after he showed himself to those that
believed
he would come back some time after His Crucifixion.
even though he talked to them they had no idea it was Him
that they were talking to until he opened their eyes of
understanding
so they could see HIM.
This caused the Rapture in their hearts.

I'm sure they experienced a "rapture of the heart" and all
that. And yes, Jesus did say he would come back in his
resurrection. But I'm talking about his eschatological
return, his return in "glory." We shouldn't confuse the two.
randy
.

User: "Mistylien"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	25 Aug 2007 02:21:23 AM

"randy" <rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:It-dnSMT3evphFLbnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@wavecable.com...

"Mistylien"
"randy"

...They were told to live in anticipation of his return. They were told to live as if
his coming was right at the door. What does this mean? Does this mean that they were
to expect him at any moment? No. Rather, Jesus wanted his disciples to view his return
as the most important thing in human history....

So you can not look up the Bible Passages? Show me Book Chapter and Verse where you get
your infomation
from please.

Remember you are reading from a book that was written
long before the day you read it.
Some of the prophesies you read about in it were to start the
very moment it was written.
Some of the prophesies in the Bible were even on going as
that Book was Written.
Some of the Prophsies in the Bible and in Revelation were
to start as the prophsies dictated.
It is up to us to find either the Starting date or the ending date.
If the prophecy did not have a starting date it also had no fulfillment
date and that indicates it is an on-going prophecy and is going
on from then to even today.

But you will notice that even though Jesus is viewed as if he is already coming, there
are many things later mentioned that have to happen *before* this event takes place. The
meaning is self-explanatory. All the events described in the book of Revelation are
designed to lead up to Christ's coming. We are to see Christ's coming as the central
reason for history itself. It's the thing we are to anticipate, to keep ourselves ready
for.

Jesus did come in the flesh to the world but the world knew him
not. John 1:1-6.
Now He has to come to people one at a time but remember his feet
will not even touch the ground. Therefore He will be coming
in a different way then a psysical body but in a Spiritual Body
to the flesh and blood people one at a time as the on going
prophecy indicates.
wit all other prophesies one only needs to find out the starting date
and then place the whole prophecy into the timeline of History
of the last 2 K years.
However some are yet to be fulfilled as also is indicated in the prophecy
itself.

And there are many passages dealing with how we are to keep ourselves ready for Christ's
coming. We are to keep ourselves spotless from sin, not in case Jesus comes tomorrow,
but simply because we are *always* to remain ready for the coming Kingdom, so that we
will *always* live in righteousness, and not in sin. If we believe in a coming Kingdom
of righteousness, we should *always* want to live in righteousness, and not just
immediately before Christ's appearing!

Jesus Died on the Cross so we do not even have to worry about if
we sin or not..
This does not give us card blanc to sin though I realize that.

For goodness sakes he did return it was called the resurrection!

I'm not doubting the fact of his resurrection. I do question, however, your
association of the resurrection with his return! After all, it was *after* his
resurrection that he ascended to heaven. And it was at that time that the angel said
he would come "in like manner."

I'm sure they experienced a "rapture of the heart" and all that. And yes, Jesus did say
he would come back in his resurrection. But I'm talking about his eschatological return,
his return in "glory." We shouldn't confuse the two.
randy

I do not see He is to have lost His Glory in the first place.
He has to come to us that were sleeping in the earth at the
time he was walking in the world among people some 2K years
ago.
Now he walks with us in Spirit as each and every one of us come
to believe in Him.
A study in Bible prophesies will make this a lot more clearer to
us that claim to be Christians.
By Bible Prophecy Study we can check off which prophesies have
been fulfilled and which ones have not been fulfilled.
M,

User: "randy"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	25 Aug 2007 09:38:47 AM

"Mistylien"
"randy"

Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every
eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all
tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so.
Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who
is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Remember you are reading from a book that was written
long before the day you read it.
Some of the prophesies you read about in it were to start
the
very moment it was written.
Some of the prophesies in the Bible were even on going as
that Book was Written.
Some of the Prophsies in the Bible and in Revelation were
to start as the prophsies dictated.
It is up to us to find either the Starting date or the
ending date.
If the prophecy did not have a starting date it also had
no fulfillment
date and that indicates it is an on-going prophecy and is
going
on from then to even today.

I wouldn't doubt that at all. Nor do I claim to understand
what every single prophecy means. For example, I am
completely baffled by the locust plague, ie the army with
soldiers that look like locusts. (Rev 9)

...We are to see Christ's coming as the central reason
for history itself. It's the thing we are to anticipate,
to keep ourselves ready for.

Jesus did come in the flesh to the world but the world
knew him
not. John 1:1-6.
Now He has to come to people one at a time but remember
his feet
will not even touch the ground....

This sounds like his feet will "touch the ground"...
Zech 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of
Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the
Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a
very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall
withdraw northward, and the other half southward.

And there are many passages dealing with how we are to
keep ourselves ready for Christ's coming...

Jesus Died on the Cross so we do not even have to worry
about if
we sin or not..
This does not give us card blanc to sin though I realize
that.

I'm glad you realize that. But I wish you'd realize that we
do need to be told and to tell ourselves that it's important
to keep ourselves spiritually clean. When Jesus told his
church to remain alert he was telling us not to be
constantly vigilant for an imminent event (an *any moment*
event). Rather, he was telling us that we *always* need to
stay clean spiritually, because we belong to the coming
Kingdom of righteousness.

I'm sure they experienced a "rapture of the heart" and
all that. And yes, Jesus did say he would come back in
his resurrection. But I'm talking about his
eschatological return, his return in "glory." We
shouldn't confuse the two.

I do not see He is to have lost His Glory in the first
place.
He has to come to us that were sleeping in the earth at
the
time he was walking in the world among people some 2K
years
ago....

What do you mean when you say we "were sleeping in the
earth?"

Now he walks with us in Spirit as each and every one of us
come
to believe in Him.
A study in Bible prophesies will make this a lot more
clearer to
us that claim to be Christians.
By Bible Prophecy Study we can check off which prophesies
have
been fulfilled and which ones have not been fulfilled.

I think you're trying to be a little too mystical in your
interpretation. Stay alert. The enemy is lurking, wanting to
devour us. But by remaining firm in Christ, we will attain
to our salvation.
randy
.

User: "Mistylien"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	27 Aug 2007 03:27:29 AM

"randy" <rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:UdqdnVrpxpxgo03bnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@wavecable.com...

"Mistylien"
"randy"

Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one
who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so.
Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to
come, the Almighty.

I wouldn't doubt that at all. Nor do I claim to understand what every single prophecy
means. For example, I am completely baffled by the locust plague, ie the army with
soldiers that look like locusts. (Rev 9)

AS I get insight I share them with you all.
If you watch the news on the media you take one look
at a tank and those that follow it you may see soldiers that
look like locust and move on as a plague.
The Helacopters look like their stings is in the tail when
they shoot off Rockets to the ground.
Maybe yes maybe no?

...We are to see Christ's coming as the central reason for history itself. It's the
thing we are to anticipate, to keep ourselves ready for.

Jesus did come in the flesh to the world but the world knew him
not. John 1:1-6.
Now He has to come to people one at a time but remember his feet
will not even touch the ground....

This sounds like his feet will "touch the ground"...
Zech 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before
Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west
by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the
other half southward.

Yes but That was his second coming after His resurrection.
after that He would come to those that were sleeping in the
ground at the time he was resurrected.
Where were you on resurection day?
Did you see him Go up into heaven when He did assend?
No you did not. You only read about it that others saw him
do that.

And there are many passages dealing with how we are to keep ourselves ready for
Christ's coming...

Jesus Died on the Cross so we do not even have to worry about if we sin or not..
This does not give us card blanc to sin though I realize that.

I'm glad you realize that. But I wish you'd realize that we do need to be told and to
tell ourselves that it's important to keep ourselves spiritually clean. When Jesus told
his church to remain alert he was telling us not to be constantly vigilant for an
imminent event (an *any moment* event). Rather, he was telling us that we *always* need
to stay clean spiritually, because we belong to the coming Kingdom of righteousness.

Have you accpted Jesus Christ as you redeemer and savior?
Have you asked him to inter in to you and dwell in you?
Are you making Room The Word of God?
Do you hear The Whisper of the Savior when He speacks to
you?
Do you accept The Bible as the Written Word of God?

I'm sure they experienced a "rapture of the heart" and all that. And yes, Jesus did
say he would come back in his resurrection. But I'm talking about his eschatological
return, his return in "glory." We shouldn't confuse the two.

I do not see He is to have lost His Glory in the first place.
He has to come to us that were sleeping in the earth at the
time he was walking in the world among people some 2K years ago....

What do you mean when you say we "were sleeping in the earth?"

From the dust of the earth we came and to the dust of the earth
we will go back to.
Were were you 2K years ago when Jesus was telling of those
that sleep in the earth?
Yes He was telling of those that would be born after that time.

Now he walks with us in Spirit as each and every one of us come
to believe in Him.
A study in Bible prophesies will make this a lot more clearer to us that claim to be
Christians.
By Bible Prophecy Study we can check off which prophesies have been fulfilled and which
ones have not been fulfilled.

I think you're trying to be a little too mystical in your interpretation. Stay alert.
The enemy is lurking, wanting to devour us. But by remaining firm in Christ, we will
attain to our salvation.

I am only being mystical as My Lord and The Spirit of Truth
give me insight into His Written word.
Freely I receive, freely I give.
I know I was not walking around when Jesus was walking
on the earth some 2,000 years ago.
So I must have been sleeping in the earth some place.
The some time in my past I was created brom the dust of the
Ground and when I was born God breathen into me the
breath of life and I became a Living Soul just as He did
to Adam over 6,000 years ago.
I know where Satan's lair is also!
M,

randy

User: "randy"
Title: Re: Dispensational Effects	27 Aug 2007 12:55:35 PM

"Mistylien"
"randy"

...Nor do I claim to understand what every single
prophecy means. For example, I am completely baffled by
the locust plague, ie the army with soldiers that look
like locusts. (Rev 9)

...If you watch the news on the media you take one look
at a tank and those that follow it you may see soldiers
that
look like locust and move on as a plague.
The Helacopters look like their stings is in the tail when
they shoot off Rockets to the ground.
Maybe yes maybe no?

I read "The Late Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey a long,
long time ago. I think that was his interpretation. I'm not
completely satisfied with that, though I think it's an
interesting idea.

This sounds like his feet will "touch the ground"...
Zech 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount
of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and
the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to
west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount
shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward.

Yes but That was his second coming after His resurrection.
after that He would come to those that were sleeping in
the
ground at the time he was resurrected.

I don't know what you mean by this? You were describing the
resurrection and the 2nd Coming as simultaneous events.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Where were you on resurection day?

Are you referring to the day Christ himself was raised from
the dead? I wasn't born yet.

Did you see him Go up into heaven when He did assend?
No you did not. You only read about it that others saw
him
do that.

That's true of anybody not yet born. What's the point?

I'm glad you realize that. But I wish you'd realize that
we do need to be told and to tell ourselves that it's
important to keep ourselves spiritually clean. When Jesus
told his church to remain alert he was telling us not to
be constantly vigilant for an imminent event (an *any
moment* event). Rather, he was telling us that we
*always* need to stay clean spiritually, because we
belong to the coming Kingdom of righteousness.

I'm a pentecostal Christian who was raised from childhood in
Lutheran theology.
You've sidestepped the important question here. You said we
don't have to worry about our sins. I told you that holiness
is a big, big part of Christian teaching. Now you're
interested in my background?

Were were you 2K years ago when Jesus was telling of those
that sleep in the earth?
Yes He was telling of those that would be born after that
time.

I guess I'm just not following you.

I know I was not walking around when Jesus was walking
on the earth some 2,000 years ago.
So I must have been sleeping in the earth some place....

You were sleeping in the earth 2000 years ago? I don't have
a clue where you're getting this stuff from, but it's not
the Christian God! Sorry!
randy
.

User: "Mark T moi@backhomeagain0000000000006"
Title: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	27 Aug 2007 07:09:26 PM

"randy" wrote:

I read "The Late Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey a long, long time
ago. I think that was his interpretation.

NOPE!
#############################################################
"Lindsey later admitted that the book had been written by an unknown woman,
Carla Carlson."
- from Tanya Levin "People In Glass Houses: An insiders story of a life in
and
out of Hillsong" (Black Inc.:2007) p. 226
################################################################
Read the full story http://www.scionofzion.com/ghost_writers.htm
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.

User: "randy"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	28 Aug 2007 01:18:04 AM

"Mark T"

"randy"

I read "The Late Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey a
long, long time ago. I think that was his interpretation.

NOPE!
"Lindsey later admitted that the book had been written by
an unknown woman, Carla Carlson."
Read the full story
http://www.scionofzion.com/ghost_writers.htm

The use of "ghostwriters" is not an indication the author of
name wasn't genuine.
If I use the windows program or Word for word processing my
posts, that doesn't mean Bill Gates wrote the posts! ;)
randy
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	28 Aug 2007 05:31:43 AM

"randy" <rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:IoadnbGkPty7I07bnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@wavecable.com...

The use of "ghostwriters" is not an indication the author of name wasn't
genuine.
If I use the windows program or Word for word processing my posts, that
doesn't mean Bill Gates wrote the posts! ;)
randy

Mark's weird.
I didn't read the book but if I recall back when the book came out, he was
on TV with the one who did the writing, and I think she was his
sister-in-law.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
.

User: "Mark T moi@backhomeagain0000000000009"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	28 Aug 2007 06:03:00 PM

"Fred A Stove" <fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Mark's weird.

You're a stove and you calll ME weird!
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
"Really! Try to believe even if it's bloody stupid and irrational." - Mark
17:2 (MTV)
"Why? Because I said so, that's why! Don't ask questions. Just
believe." - Mark 17:3 (MTV)
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.

User: "Jude"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	28 Aug 2007 06:16:38 PM

"Mark T" <moi@backhomeagain0000000000009> wrote in message
news:46d4a9a0@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

"Fred A Stove" <fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Mark's weird.

You're a stove and you calll ME weird!

Yeah, Fred's A. Stove.... :)
.

User: "randy"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	28 Aug 2007 11:35:29 AM

"Fred A Stover"
"randy"

Mark's weird. I didn't read the book but if I recall back
when the book came out, he was on TV with the one who did
the writing, and I think she was his sister-in-law.

I don't know if she did the writing, but she was certainly
an author in her own right. She wrote on the New Age
movement, which she had been a part of. I just can't
remember her name. I haven't heard anything about Lindsey's
wife for a long time. There may have been health problems,
so I don't care to pry too much. Seemed like a very nice
lady.
randy
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	28 Aug 2007 02:47:35 PM

On Aug 28, 10:35 am, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:

"Fred A Stover"
"randy"

Mark's weird. I didn't read the book but if I recall back
when the book came out, he was on TV with the one who did
the writing, and I think she was his sister-in-law.

If I could insert a few thoughts on the topic, Hal Lindsey was hired
by Intervarisity Christian Fellowship, hence InterVarsity Press.
Turns out, that IVF was an extention of Dallas Theological Seminary!
The stogy thelologians at DTS had figured out in the late 60s, and
early 70s, that the young college age crowd was not listening to them,
so they went out and hired Hal Lindsey to be their front man on the
secular college campuses around the country. Hal had previously been
a rock band musician, and though I believe he was a Christian, I do
not believe he had any theological credentials nor academic skills to
necessarily write a book. Hence the need to have a ghost writer. He
just endorsed it, and being the "made man" of DTS, they promoted it
through IVP, their publishing arm.
This info came via Dave Hunt, and my personal knowledge and
involvement with IVF at the time. Dave and I had a couple of
conversations regarding this and he included it in his book at the
time! I have sat in on a number of planning conferences, with Hal
Linsey speaking, and strategy planning on how to reach young people on
the campuses at the time! Hal was the result of PR as much as any
moviestar coming out of Hollywood, or Madison Avenue PR Campaign!
Once he gained a certain critical mass with The Late Great Planet
Earth, he no longer needed DTS for his promotion, though I still doubt
whether he personally comes up with his written material, including
the Left Behind series! They in particular are very suspicious to me,
and have the mark of not only Ghost writers all over them, but even
more so just the concerted effort of a production crew, preparing for
the next movie! Numerous writers and editors! Hal Lindsey again just
signs on with the endorsement!
Now whether one accepts the message of Hal Lindsey, ie Dallas
Theological Seminary, is another matter! DTS is a recognized
Dispensational School, with strong roots in the Darby variety! I no
longer subscribe to this particular eschatology, and the coniving of
DTS in this matter, is one of the reasons I eventually had to take a
hard look at what they were saying! By their fruits will you know
them, and their fruits stunk! Besides a strong motive to reap lots of
money from their book sales, they had a very shallow commitment to the
things they said they believed! They were interested in selling
whatever folks were buying, and Hal Lindsey sold lots of books, and
brought a lot of noteriety to DTS!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	28 Aug 2007 09:26:37 PM

"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188330455.638138.213220@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 28, 10:35 am, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:

"Fred A Stover"
"randy"

Mark's weird. I didn't read the book but if I recall back
when the book came out, he was on TV with the one who did
the writing, and I think she was his sister-in-law.

If I could insert a few thoughts on the topic, Hal Lindsey was hired
by Intervarisity Christian Fellowship, hence InterVarsity Press.
Turns out, that IVF was an extention of Dallas Theological Seminary!
The stogy thelologians at DTS had figured out in the late 60s, and
early 70s, that the young college age crowd was not listening to them,
so they went out and hired Hal Lindsey to be their front man on the
secular college campuses around the country. Hal had previously been
a rock band musician, and though I believe he was a Christian, I do
not believe he had any theological credentials nor academic skills to
necessarily write a book. Hence the need to have a ghost writer. He
just endorsed it, and being the "made man" of DTS, they promoted it
through IVP, their publishing arm.

This info came via Dave Hunt, and my personal knowledge and
involvement with IVF at the time. Dave and I had a couple of
conversations regarding this and he included it in his book at the
time! I have sat in on a number of planning conferences, with Hal
Linsey speaking, and strategy planning on how to reach young people on
the campuses at the time! Hal was the result of PR as much as any
moviestar coming out of Hollywood, or Madison Avenue PR Campaign!

Once he gained a certain critical mass with The Late Great Planet
Earth, he no longer needed DTS for his promotion, though I still doubt
whether he personally comes up with his written material, including
the Left Behind series! They in particular are very suspicious to me,
and have the mark of not only Ghost writers all over them, but even
more so just the concerted effort of a production crew, preparing for
the next movie! Numerous writers and editors! Hal Lindsey again just
signs on with the endorsement!

Now whether one accepts the message of Hal Lindsey, ie Dallas
Theological Seminary, is another matter! DTS is a recognized
Dispensational School, with strong roots in the Darby variety! I no
longer subscribe to this particular eschatology, and the coniving of
DTS in this matter, is one of the reasons I eventually had to take a
hard look at what they were saying! By their fruits will you know
them, and their fruits stunk! Besides a strong motive to reap lots of
money from their book sales, they had a very shallow commitment to the
things they said they believed! They were interested in selling
whatever folks were buying, and Hal Lindsey sold lots of books, and
brought a lot of noteriety to DTS!

Thank you, antichrist, for a perfect example of how your mind failure. You
ratted yourself out. Petty, paranoid, conspiratorial ... Yes, Virginia,
there are dingbats.
Now we find out that in spite of your claim that you wouldn't be caught dead
reading the Left Behind series, and formulating the opinion that they are
ghost-written.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><

.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	28 Aug 2007 11:29:49 PM

On Aug 28, 8:26 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1188330455.638138.213220@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 28, 10:35 am, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:

"Fred A Stover"
"randy"

Mark's weird. I didn't read the book but if I recall back
when the book came out, he was on TV with the one who did
the writing, and I think she was his sister-in-law.

This info came via Dave Hunt, and my personal knowledge and
involvement with IVF at the time. Dave and I had a couple of
conversations regarding this and he included it in his book at the
time! I have sat in on a number of planning conferences, with Hal
Linsey speaking, and strategy planning on how to reach young people on
the campuses at the time! Hal was the result of PR as much as any
moviestar coming out of Hollywood, or Madison Avenue PR Campaign!

Once he gained a certain critical mass with The Late Great Planet
Earth, he no longer needed DTS for his promotion, though I still doubt
whether he personally comes up with his written material, including
the Left Behind series! They in particular are very suspicious to me,
and have the mark of not only Ghost writers all over them, but even
more so just the concerted effort of a production crew, preparing for
the next movie! Numerous writers and editors! Hal Lindsey again just
signs on with the endorsement!

Now whether one accepts the message of Hal Lindsey, ie Dallas
Theological Seminary, is another matter! DTS is a recognized
Dispensational School, with strong roots in the Darby variety! I no
longer subscribe to this particular eschatology, and the coniving of
DTS in this matter, is one of the reasons I eventually had to take a
hard look at what they were saying! By their fruits will you know
them, and their fruits stunk! Besides a strong motive to reap lots of
money from their book sales, they had a very shallow commitment to the
things they said they believed! They were interested in selling
whatever folks were buying, and Hal Lindsey sold lots of books, and
brought a lot of noteriety to DTS!

No, I stopped reading Hal Linsey years ago, after a church I knew
about, decided to put on a church play using his books as the story
line! They brought in a camera crew to make it into a movie, and
spent thousands of dollars showing "believers" being yanked out of the
pews, and flying around inside the church like Peter Pan! I ask them
what it meant, and most of them could only say read Hal! I said
thanks anyway!
You see I new about the conspiracy, because for a while I was part of
the planning crew! I started an Intervarsity chapter on the college
campus, and we were provided with detailed plans on how to "witness"
to the students, and "bring them to Christ!" I eventually came to
hate the manipulation that was going on in the name of Jesus! Jesus
had nothing to do with it! It was all just fundementalist brain-
washing! This was just the dumbing down of the Body of Christ! Shoot,
freddie will believe anything as long as it is packaged properly!
If you prefer to have your brain-washed, I will not stop you! That is
your privilege! Enjoy! and Smile!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Suzanne"
Title: Re: "The Late Great Planet Earth" Ghost Written.	30 Aug 2007 07:32:51 PM

"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188361789.994828.188870@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 28, 8:26 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1188330455.638138.213220@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 28, 10:35 am, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:

"Fred A Stover"
"randy"

Mark's weird. I didn't read the book but if I recall back
when the book came out, he was on TV with the one who did
the writing, and I think she was his sister-in-law.