| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2007 05:25:01 PM |
| Object: |
Dispensationalism - What Does It Lead To? |
There is no doubt whatsoever that the Apostles believed
in a return of Christ, within their generation. And it is
because Futruists/Dospnesationalists know this to be a
fact, that they play their word games!
Many say, "Jesus is coming soon!". But what do they mean
by that word, "soon"?
Well, when THEY say it about OUR time, they mean it exactly
the way it is. But when they see it in the Bible, then they
redefine it to mean, "maybe thousands of years off, but when
it happens, it'll happen quickly, because it's about us and
our time". Of course, they'll later deny that they're being
vain and placing it in their time today, but it's too late!
They already said it, when they said, "Jesus is coming soon".
And when they try to back out of that, they only prove my
point that they are dishonest with words! (:
And why isn't this "special Bible speak 'soon' definition",
the definition that they use in every day life? When they
tell someone that something will happen soon and that
those same people will be around to see it within their
lifetime today, why don't they mean that "maybe it'll
happen thousands of years from now, but when it finally
happens, it'll happen quickly"?
Because they know just how stupid that sounds! And it
sounds no less stupid when they say it about that same
word, when it is used in the Bible!
But it seems that when they open their Bibles, then all of
the sudden, words mean the opposite of what they say
and these people actually pretend that this makes sense
and they're ridiculous enough to pretend that it will make
sense to everyone else and that the unbelievers, "just
don't understand Bible time speak". So they claim that
"1,000 years equals one day with God", which of course,
would bind God to linear time, which these same people
claim that God isn't bound to. It never occurs to them,
that a writer used a figure of speech, to tell people to
be patient. You know, like, "I know this day seems like
it'll never end, but it will". No, it couldn't be something
like that, even though we know that God isn't bound by
time and saying that He has "1,000 year days" would be
to contradict that. But hey, who cares about contradictions?
No harm in having them and then claiming not to, right?
Dispensationalism has been the cause of even Christians
claiming that the inspired writers of the NT were wrong.
That the Apostles were wrong in their expectations of
a return of Christ within their generation. When you
begin to think that the Apostles were wrong about
something that they said, which is found in Scripture,
then your doctrine is wrong and it is based on vanity!
The vanity that places you above them and says that
no one could get it right until today! And we all KNOW
that we have heard these arguments and that Futurists
DO BELIEVE THEM!
Now you can lie all you want to, but don't think you're
fooling me and don't be foolish enough to think that
you're even fooling yourself! (:
Many Christians today do prefer to believe that the writers
were wrong about Jesus returning within that generation,
when shown the undeniable fact that they did believe that
and the undeniable fact that Jesus said He would! Maybe
it should have occurred to these people, that they were
taking symbolic language and trying to make it physically
literal. God came already in the clouds, in Isaiah 19:1,
but no one physically saw Him. So what is the rule here?
To use the language the same way that the Bible shows
it was used? Or to say that it was symbolic then, but
because it's about us today (so you claim), now it's
physically literal? That seems to me, like pure vanity!
And Paul said that the bodies that are buried, are not
the bodies that would be raised, so you wouldn't see
it happen anyway!
But go ahead and keep thinking that it's all about you
and your time. And go ahead and ignore what has been
posted here and attack me all you can, about whatever
subjects you can dredge up, thinking that your distraction
from the subject, proves you have refuted something!
It's what you're good at, right? It's what Futurists have
been doing all along!
But for me, it all boils down to, "What did Jesus SAY?".
Matthew 16:27-28 [LITV]
27) For the Son of Man is ABOUT TO COME with His angels
in the glory of His Father. And then He will give reward to
each according to his practice.
"And, behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is
with Me, to give to each as his work is." - Rev 22:12
28) Truly I say to you, There are some STANDING HERE
who will NOT taste of death, never, until they see the Son
of Man coming in His kingdom.
You see, it doesn't say, "the Son of man will come" (v27),
as in some distant future thing and that is a bad translation.
The Greek word there is "mello", which actually means,
"be(ing) about to be". It speaks of immanency. And lest
we try to play word games and claim that "imminent" means,
"could be far off, but when it happens, it'll happen quickly"
(which we all know isn't what "imminent" means, but it gets
redefined as that when people open their Bibles), let us pay
attention to what the Greek really says. It actually says,
"about to be". It was about to happen! And let us notice
what else Jesus said, since He also said that there were
some STANDING THERE that would NOT die, before
He returned in His Kingdom!
Let us also note the comparison to Rev 22:12, which no one
argues isn't about the Second Coming. We all know that it is.
But do we take the time to note the similarity in words with
Mat 16:27 above?
Mat - He is about to come.
Rev - He is coming quickly.
Mat - He will give His reward.
Rev - His reward is with Him.
Mat - He will give these rewards to them according
to their practice.
Rev - He will give these rewards to each according
to their practice.
It is clear by these passages, that Jesus was telling
His disciples that His return would not be far off and
that some (at least one, but not most) standing there
would still be alive when He returned. There is no
way around these facts, if one is honest with oneself
about what the Bible says in these passages.
And lest someone say it's about some other event,
let us remember that you it is quoted by Futurists
as if it were speaking of His Second Coming, until
this problem is pointed out, which is true, but it
does not leave you the option of now claiming
that it was about the Transfiguration, nor Pentecost,
which is the fall back position of the Futurists, when
they are shown what He actually said.
But let's take a quick look at those events and remember
that if it is about one of those events, then *all* of the
factors much match!
Transfiguration: That was only days later and they were
all alive (Jesus said only "some" would be). There was
no coming in the glory of His Father and no angels with
Him and there was no rewarding according to their works.
Pentecost: That was right after His Ascension and only
one had died (Jesus said that only "some" would be alive,
not "most"). There was no coming in the glory of His
Father and no angels with Him and there was no rewarding
according to their works.
So neither of those events fits the requirements to be
considered as a fulfillment of that event. It is clear that
both Matthew 16:27-28 & Revelation 22:12 are talking
about the same event and that His return was to be quick,
before all of the disciples (later called "Apostles") died.
Now this is the moment of truth for you. This is when
you get to define whether or not you are handling
Scripture honestly and rightly dividing the word of truth.
I know that you and others reading this see it. So I know
that you know that what is stated about these passages
above is correct, since I did not add to the word, but only
repeated it and compared it to itself. So it isn't a matter
of interpretation here. It is a matter of believing Him.
So will you believe Him? Or will you rebel against it,
because it doesn't fit your presupposed doctrine?
Which should we do? Filter our doctrines through Scripture?
Or filter Scripture through our doctrine? You must decide
this for yourself.
So it is your choice now, whether to believe the Scriptures
or not, since the wording is clear and is not mysterious.
By the unbelieving and liberal skeptic it has been stated that
Jesus "failed" and was "mistaken" in His promises to return in
the lifetime and generation of His contemporaries. A Hebrew
rabbi writes,
"At first, Christians expected that this "second coming" would
come very shortly... in their lifetime. When their prayer was
not answered... ...the early Christians were forced to
radically alter the Jewish concept of the Messiah in order to
explain Jesus’ failure" Pinchas Stolper,.ed. The Real Messiah
(Reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973, Union of Orthodox
Jewish Congregation. New York: 1973, pp. 32-33).
The professing ‘atheist’, Bertrand Russell gave the following
reason why he was not a Christian,
"He (Jesus) certainly thought that His second coming would
occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people
who were living at that time. There are a great many texts
that prove that and there are a lot of places where it is
quite clear that He believed that His coming would happen
during the lifetime of many then living" Bertrand Russell,
Why I Am Not a Christian (New York: Simon and Scheuster,
1957, pp. 16).
"It still looks as though a monstrous illusion lies at the
basis of the whole mission of Jesus, the illusion of something
immediately impending which actually never has come to pass
[emphasis MJS] (Martin Debelius, Jesus (Berlin: Walter de
Gruyter, 1939). Trans. C.B. Hedrich & F.C. Grant
(Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1949).
"He (Jesus) also proclaimed the imminent arrival on earth
of the Kingdom of God - a Golden Age for Jews. This
proclamation turned out to be an error" [parentheses &
emphasis MJS] (Clayton Sullivan, Rethinking Realized
Eschatology, p. 118.)
Rudolf Bultmann, a liberal, wrote, "Of course, Jesus was
mistaken in thinking that the world was destined to come
to an end" (Rudolf Bultmann, Primitive Christianity in its
Contemporary Setting. (Trans. by R.H. Fuller). Cleveland,
Ohio: William Collins Publisher, Inc. , 1956, pp. 92).
And "Jesus expectation of the near end of the world turned
out to be an illusion" (Rudolf Bultmann, Theology of the
New Testament, Vol. 1, pp. 22). Dale C. Allison, Jr.
commenting on these texts feels that "conservative critics’
need to "acknowledge the humiliating discovery that Jesus
proclaimed the divinely wrought near end of the world"
[emphasis MJS] (Allison Dale, Jr., Journal of Biblical
Literature, Vol. pp. 651).
The Lord has given these men over to their confusion. Some
of these modern liberals still try to hang on to some kind or
form of Christianity while others are simply but "scholarly"
confused and have grown cynical. For example, Clayton
Sullivan believes
"...Jesus, mistaken proclaimer of the Kingdom of God,
carries a comforting implication: belief accuracy or doctrinal
rectitude is not a prerequisite for divine approval"
(Sullivan, Clayton, Rethinking Realized Eschatology,
Mercer University Press: 1988, p.118)
While others like Dale Allison, Jr., find that "the
eschatological Jesus is theologically troubling"
but he states,
"The truth, however, is like God: we can run from it, but it
is always there. I, myself do not know what to make of the
eschatological Jesus. I am, for theological reasons, unedified
by the thought that, in a matter so seemingly crucial, a lie
has been walking around for two thousand years while the
truth has only recently put on its shoes. But there it is"
(Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. , p. 668).
The "truth" being the alleged discovery that this mistaken
and purely
"...human Jesus, is just like one of us, one who holds values
that are very close to our ideological commitments, a Jesus
who is a social reformer and who attacks patriarchal orders,
a Jesus who, as a real human person, can stand as an example
and inspiration for worthy causes" [emphasis MJS] (Ibid.
Allison quoting Koester in footnote 82 on p. 668).
In other words, Jesus was a good moral teacher and
"inspiration" to us all, but he wasn’t God like he claimed
because He was "mistaken" and failed to usher in the
kingdom when he promised.
This purely "human Jesus" these men claim to trust in can’t
save them from their sins and they won’t find any "comforting
implications" in him in this life or in the next!
The error in view here is the conclusion that 1) Christ did
not come within the time frame He promised- the apostolic
generation and 2) Jesus was just a good moral teacher and
not God like He claimed to be and is.
--
The torture of a bad conscience, is the Hell
of a living soul. - John Calvin
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| User: "Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Dispensationalism - What Does It Lead To? |
26 Mar 2007 08:19:38 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:c0sd035q94fii0ic9g95n6kejnfetbikoh@4ax.com...
There is no doubt whatsoever that the Apostles believed
in a return of Christ, within their generation.
"So likewise ye, when ye shall see *ALL* these things, know that it is
near, even at the doors"
*And he said unto them, It is not for YOU (disciples) to know the times or
the seasons*
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,
**Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.**
Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it
is near, even at the doors.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all
these things be fulfilled.
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass
away.
Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of
heaven, but my Father only.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Dispensationalism - What Does It Lead To? |
26 Mar 2007 03:45:45 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:c0sd035q94fii0ic9g95n6kejnfetbikoh@4ax.com...
There is no doubt whatsoever that the Apostles believed
in a return of Christ, within their generation.
ROTFL!!!!
Still joy-riding the old manure spreader, Satan?
Early Church Father Justin Martyr:
"We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is
as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was
a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ,
who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who
believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that
thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment
of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They
shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the
angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'"
--
http://www.geocities.com/alphadiego66medina@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
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