| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Read The Bible" |
| Date: |
01 Sep 2006 03:17:27 AM |
| Object: |
Divorce and Remarriage |
"He which made them at the beginning made them male
and female, and said: For this cause shall a man leave
father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and
they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore they are no
more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath
joined together, let not man put asunder.
|
They say unto him: Why did Moses then command to give
a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He
saith unto them: Moses because of the hardness of your
hearts suffered you to put away your wives, but from
the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you:
Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for
fornication, and shall marry another, committeth
adultery; and whoso marrieth her which is put away
doth commit adultery" (Matthew 19:4-9).
"And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be
married to another, she committeth adultery"
(Mark 10:12).
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance,
emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such
like; of the which I tell you before, as I have also
told you in time past, that they which do such things
shall not inherit the kingdom of God"
(Galatians 5:19-21).
.
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| User: "Bill M" |
|
| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
01 Sep 2006 08:20:17 AM |
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|
In your nonsensical 'opinion'!
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157098647.596571.225090@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
"He which made them at the beginning made them male
and female, and said: For this cause shall a man leave
father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and
they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore they are no
more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath
joined together, let not man put asunder.
|
They say unto him: Why did Moses then command to give
a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He
saith unto them: Moses because of the hardness of your
hearts suffered you to put away your wives, but from
the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you:
Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for
fornication, and shall marry another, committeth
adultery; and whoso marrieth her which is put away
doth commit adultery" (Matthew 19:4-9).
"And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be
married to another, she committeth adultery"
(Mark 10:12).
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance,
emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such
like; of the which I tell you before, as I have also
told you in time past, that they which do such things
shall not inherit the kingdom of God"
(Galatians 5:19-21).
.
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| User: "www.pulpitfire.org" |
|
| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
01 Sep 2006 09:35:35 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:20:17 -0400,
in article <_rWJg.2625$IM1.2456@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
In your nonsensical 'opinion'!
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157098647.596571.225090@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
"He which made them at the beginning made them male
and female, and said: For this cause shall a man leave
father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and
they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore they are no
more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath
joined together, let not man put asunder.
|
They say unto him: Why did Moses then command to give
a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He
saith unto them: Moses because of the hardness of your
hearts suffered you to put away your wives, but from
the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you:
Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for
fornication, and shall marry another, committeth
adultery; and whoso marrieth her which is put away
doth commit adultery" (Matthew 19:4-9).
"And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be
married to another, she committeth adultery"
(Mark 10:12).
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance,
emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such
like; of the which I tell you before, as I have also
told you in time past, that they which do such things
shall not inherit the kingdom of God"
(Galatians 5:19-21).
What are you talking about? Where did he insert his opinion here?
While I agree the standard is no divorce, and that this is God's will,
there are some ways that I think people have been wrongly using these
principles against those who are divorced.
For example,
Mt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife,
saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery:
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
The English makes it look like Jesus is rebuking those who were
wrongfully divorced, or anyone who marries a wrongfully divorced
person, and calling them adulterers.
In the Greek, however, the phrase "commit adultery" is in the passive
voice. I believe Lenski is correct, here, in pointing out that this
is saying they are wrongfully "stigmatized" as adulterous by the
person who wrongfully divorces them, since adultery, or fornication,
was the only legitimate cause. I believe He was actually rebuking
those who wrongfully divorce their spouse, not those who were
wrongfully divorced, or those who marry the wrongfully divorced
person.
It says also, "saving for the cause of fornication". There are
convincing arguments on both side, here, and I would have a hard time
concluding that anyone, who divorces their husband/wife, for the cause
of fornication, is absolutely sinning, or that anyone who remarries
after being wrongfully divorced, or who marries a wrongfully divorced
person, is absolutely sinning.
1 Corinthians 7 may also indicate that abandonment by an unbeliever
allows for the believer to remarry, since they are "not under
bondage". However, there are convincing arguments on both sides
(either that it is not talking about remarriage, but only that a
believer is not under the bondage of staying and contending with an
unbeliever who is unwilling to live with them, or that they are not
under the bondage of marriage, and are free to remarry).
Having said that, however, I do not want to appear as if I'm coming
down in favor of divorce and remarriage, since it is clearly God's
will that this does not occur. I'm simply saying that there may be
legitimate reasons why we should not try to stamp a red "D" on the
back of people who may have been wrongfully divorced, then remarried,
or who divorced for the cause of fornication, etc.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3;
Eph. 2:8-10).
• Daily devotionals • Community forum
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Funny Usenet Quotes:
I just love the way you Futurists keep claiming that there's
all of this "Biblical evidence" for your claims and yet, can't
provide anything to refute one single thing that I post.
-- Pastor Dave (shmpe296hlu1fbjofl403m9saea0itjs2h@4ax.com)
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
|
| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
09 Sep 2006 03:05:24 AM |
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Pulpitfire said on 9/1 7:35a [Re: Matthew 5:32]:
In the Greek, however, the phrase "commit adultery"
is in the passive voice.
Probably because "causeth her" is in the active voice;
i.e. it may mean that by divorcing her he leaves her
without any material maintenance and so leads her to
seek another provider for her needs by remarrying,
thereby causing her to commit adultery.
"Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth
adultery" isn't in the passive voice, indicating that
one cannot marry even a wrongfully divorced woman
without committing adultery.
"And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be
married to another, she committeth adultery" (Mark
10:12) is also not in the passive voice, indicating
that a woman who divorces her husband and remarries
commits adultery.
Pulpitfire said on 9/1 7:35a: I would have a hard
time concluding that anyone, who divorces their
husband/wife, for the cause of fornication, is
absolutely sinning
A husband can divorce his wife for the cause of
fornication, and remarry, without committing adultery.
"Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for
fornication, and shall marry another, committeth
adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
There is no such exception for the wife; i.e. no
scripture says a wife can divorce her husband for
fornication and remarry without committing adultery.
This could indicate that the fornication exception
refers to a man discovering that his newlywed is
not a virgin, i.e. it may refer only to pre-marital
fornication that was not disclosed to the husband
before the wedding.
"I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found
her not a maid" (Deuteronomy 22:14).
In ancient times, there could also be a lag time
between the marriage and its consummation; and with
less usage of contraception pre-marital fornication
could result in and be proved by pre-consummation
pregnancy. This is what Joseph thought was the case
with Mary, and this is why he intended to employ
his right to divorce her.
"Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came
together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not
willing to make her a publick example, was minded to
put her away privily" (Matthew 1:18-19).
So the fornication exception could apply only to
pre-marital fornication. This would make sense
because any post-marital sexual relations with
another man would have been referred to as adultery.
Pulpitfire said on 9/1 7:35a: 1 Corinthians 7 may
also indicate that abandonment by an unbeliever
allows for the believer to remarry, since they are
"not under bondage".
"If the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother
or a sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God
hath called us to peace" (1 Corinthians 7:15).
Jesus had taught no abandonment exception that would
allow the husband or the wife to divorce and remarry,
so Paul probably wasn't teaching that either. What he
says could mean that the believing spouse shouldn't
fight in court against any abandonment, legal
separation, or divorce initiated by the unbelieving
spouse; the sin for any such action would rest on the
unbeliever alone.
But this doesn't mean that the believer would be free
to initiate a divorce for abandonment.
"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the
beginning made them male and female, and said, For this
cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall
cleave to his wife, and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What
therefore God hath joined together, let not man put
asunder" (Matthew 19:4-6).
It truly is "till death to us part" in God's eyes. So
that even if a woman must physically separate herself
from her husband because of, e.g., abuse, she still
cannot divorce and remarry.
"And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the
Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband. But and
if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be
reconciled to her husband, and let not the husband put
away his wife" (1 Corinthians 7:10-11).
Pulpitfire said on 9/1 7:35a: ...there may be
legitimate reasons why we should not try to stamp a
red "D" on the back of people who may have been
wrongfully divorced, then remarried, or who divorced
for the cause of fornication, etc.
I don't think the idea of Jesus' strong teachings
against divorce and remarriage is to place Scarlet
Letter A's of public shame upon people; but rather to
warn us all ahead of time against falling into a deadly
sin, so that we might do whatever it takes to avoid it.
-For even believers will be damned if they continue in
adultery.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit
the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor
thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God"
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the
knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more
sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for
of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour
the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died
without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much
sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought
worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and
hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he
was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite
unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29).
If the result of continuing in adultery is so severe,
we should do everything we can to avoid it. It's
like a terminal cancer; after being warned by the
Physician that tests might show we have cancer, who
among us would search out tests that would be the least
likely to determine our state as cancerous? Wouldn't we
want to know the truth of our state of health, and so
go with those tests that could not fail to find the
least trace of cancer in us? Of course. Then why do we
actively seek for those interpretations of scripture
that are the least likely to show our state as
adulterous? Why don't we go with the strictest possible
interpretations and obey those to make absolutely
sure we aren't committing adultery. Like with terminal
cancer, the price is just too high to be wrong in this
case. We must make absolutely sure we aren't committing
adultery.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
09 Sep 2006 06:26:07 AM |
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On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:35:35 -0500, www.pulpitfire.org <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:
What are you talking about? Where did he insert his opinion here?
While I agree the standard is no divorce, and that this is God's will,
there are some ways that I think people have been wrongly using these
principles against those who are divorced.
For example,
Mt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife,
saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery:
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
The English makes it look like Jesus is rebuking those who were
wrongfully divorced, or anyone who marries a wrongfully divorced
person, and calling them adulterers.
In the Greek, however, the phrase "commit adultery" is in the passive
voice. I believe Lenski is correct, here, in pointing out that this
is saying they are wrongfully "stigmatized" as adulterous by the
person who wrongfully divorces them, since adultery, or fornication,
was the only legitimate cause. I believe He was actually rebuking
those who wrongfully divorce their spouse, not those who were
wrongfully divorced, or those who marry the wrongfully divorced
person.
It says also, "saving for the cause of fornication". There are
convincing arguments on both side, here, and I would have a hard time
concluding that anyone, who divorces their husband/wife, for the cause
of fornication, is absolutely sinning, or that anyone who remarries
after being wrongfully divorced, or who marries a wrongfully divorced
person, is absolutely sinning.
The problem with your words is that God said "let no man put asunder that which
I have joined". Marriage is a spiritual act with a civil contract attached at
the end. In divorce, only the civil contract is terminated. The marriage still
exists. Hence, one who "remarries" cannot do so and is still married to his/her
first spouse in the eyes of God.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "John Fraser" |
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| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
09 Sep 2006 07:52:16 AM |
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Good morning Duke;
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ct85g2pcnvm2rqnc6fc1a8i13dgbfkqvjb@4ax.com...
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:35:35 -0500, www.pulpitfire.org
<pulpitfire@gmail.com>
wrote:
What are you talking about? Where did he insert his opinion here?
While I agree the standard is no divorce, and that this is God's will,
there are some ways that I think people have been wrongly using these
principles against those who are divorced.
For example,
Mt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife,
saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery:
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
The English makes it look like Jesus is rebuking those who were
wrongfully divorced, or anyone who marries a wrongfully divorced
person, and calling them adulterers.
In the Greek, however, the phrase "commit adultery" is in the passive
voice. I believe Lenski is correct, here, in pointing out that this
is saying they are wrongfully "stigmatized" as adulterous by the
person who wrongfully divorces them, since adultery, or fornication,
was the only legitimate cause. I believe He was actually rebuking
those who wrongfully divorce their spouse, not those who were
wrongfully divorced, or those who marry the wrongfully divorced
person.
It says also, "saving for the cause of fornication". There are
convincing arguments on both side, here, and I would have a hard time
concluding that anyone, who divorces their husband/wife, for the cause
of fornication, is absolutely sinning, or that anyone who remarries
after being wrongfully divorced, or who marries a wrongfully divorced
person, is absolutely sinning.
The problem with your words is that God said "let no man put asunder that
which
I have joined". Marriage is a spiritual act with a civil contract
attached at
the end. In divorce, only the civil contract is terminated. The marriage
still
exists. Hence, one who "remarries" cannot do so and is still married to
his/her
first spouse in the eyes of God.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
If divorced, they aren't considered still married. What is considered
is that our will took precedence over His will. At some point, we've
decided that we disagree with God's wisdom to pick a suitable mate for us,
regardless of who breaks the marriage contract. In doing so, we place
ourselves in the same situation as Eve. Those who encourage us to follow
through become accomplices.
Somebody mentioned that Scripture phrases that if a husband leaves his
wife instead of a wife leaving her husband. My understanding is that in
those days, a woman really had few rights, other than the right to be a good
wife and mother. Similarly, a man had the same right to be a good husband
and father. In that regard, a husband and wife are on equal terms.
Because it takes two to tango, and Biblically the emphasis of leadership
is placed on the male of the species, it's the men who ultimately bear the
responsibility for their errant conduct.
Cheers,
John
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
09 Sep 2006 08:03:57 AM |
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On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:52:16 GMT, "John Fraser" <jfraser@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
The problem with your words is that God said "let no man put asunder that
which
I have joined". Marriage is a spiritual act with a civil contract
attached at
the end. In divorce, only the civil contract is terminated. The marriage
still
exists. Hence, one who "remarries" cannot do so and is still married to
his/her
first spouse in the eyes of God.
If divorced, they aren't considered still married.
Sorry, but they are still married according to God. Court action which
dissolves the civil contract (property ownership, wills, liabilities, etc) is
one thing, but the marriage in the sight of God remains.
Matthew 19:6 (New International Version)
6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let
man not separate."
What is considered
is that our will took precedence over His will. At some point, we've
decided that we disagree with God's wisdom to pick a suitable mate for us,
regardless of who breaks the marriage contract. In doing so, we place
ourselves in the same situation as Eve. Those who encourage us to follow
through become accomplices.
Yes, kicked out of heaven.
Somebody mentioned that Scripture phrases that if a husband leaves his
wife instead of a wife leaving her husband. My understanding is that in
those days, a woman really had few rights, other than the right to be a good
wife and mother. Similarly, a man had the same right to be a good husband
and father. In that regard, a husband and wife are on equal terms.
That's probably right. In those days, a woman was property to the man.
Because it takes two to tango, and Biblically the emphasis of leadership
is placed on the male of the species, it's the men who ultimately bear the
responsibility for their errant conduct.
Cheers,
John
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "John Fraser" |
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| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
09 Sep 2006 09:29:51 AM |
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Good morning Duke;
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:vce5g2t3ldu0l4j05l4h6s881mjrrd1jt2@4ax.com...
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:52:16 GMT, "John Fraser" <jfraser@ns.sympatico.ca>
wrote:
The problem with your words is that God said "let no man put asunder
that
which
I have joined". Marriage is a spiritual act with a civil contract
attached at
the end. In divorce, only the civil contract is terminated. The
marriage
still
exists. Hence, one who "remarries" cannot do so and is still married to
his/her
first spouse in the eyes of God.
If divorced, they aren't considered still married.
Sorry, but they are still married according to God. Court action which
dissolves the civil contract (property ownership, wills, liabilities, etc)
is
one thing, but the marriage in the sight of God remains.
Matthew 19:6 (New International Version)
6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined
together, let
man not separate."
What is considered
is that our will took precedence over His will. At some point, we've
decided that we disagree with God's wisdom to pick a suitable mate for us,
regardless of who breaks the marriage contract. In doing so, we place
ourselves in the same situation as Eve. Those who encourage us to follow
through become accomplices.
Yes, kicked out of heaven.
You would have to consult King David and Solomon on that one.
Somebody mentioned that Scripture phrases that if a husband leaves his
wife instead of a wife leaving her husband. My understanding is that in
those days, a woman really had few rights, other than the right to be a
good
wife and mother. Similarly, a man had the same right to be a good husband
and father. In that regard, a husband and wife are on equal terms.
That's probably right. In those days, a woman was property to the man.
Because it takes two to tango, and Biblically the emphasis of
leadership
is placed on the male of the species, it's the men who ultimately bear the
responsibility for their errant conduct.
Cheers,
John
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Cheers,
John
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
09 Sep 2006 01:45:36 PM |
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On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:29:51 GMT, "John Fraser" <jfraser@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
Yes, kicked out of heaven.
You would have to consult King David and Solomon on that one.
Genesis takes care of it.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "Rob" |
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| Title: Re: Divorce and Remarriage |
03 Sep 2006 04:38:43 AM |
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www.pulpitfire.org wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:20:17 -0400,
in article <_rWJg.2625$IM1.2456@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
In your nonsensical 'opinion'!
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157098647.596571.225090@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
"He which made them at the beginning made them male
and female, and said: For this cause shall a man leave
father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and
they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore they are no
more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath
joined together, let not man put asunder.
|
They say unto him: Why did Moses then command to give
a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He
saith unto them: Moses because of the hardness of your
hearts suffered you to put away your wives, but from
the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you:
Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for
fornication, and shall marry another, committeth
adultery; and whoso marrieth her which is put away
doth commit adultery" (Matthew 19:4-9).
"And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be
married to another, she committeth adultery"
(Mark 10:12).
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance,
emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such
like; of the which I tell you before, as I have also
told you in time past, that they which do such things
shall not inherit the kingdom of God"
(Galatians 5:19-21).
What are you talking about? Where did he insert his opinion here?
While I agree the standard is no divorce, and that this is God's will,
there are some ways that I think people have been wrongly using these
principles against those who are divorced.
For example,
Mt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife,
saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery:
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
The English makes it look like Jesus is rebuking those who were
wrongfully divorced, or anyone who marries a wrongfully divorced
person, and calling them adulterers.
In the Greek, however, the phrase "commit adultery" is in the passive
voice. I believe Lenski is correct, here, in pointing out that this
is saying they are wrongfully "stigmatized" as adulterous by the
person who wrongfully divorces them, since adultery, or fornication,
was the only legitimate cause. I believe He was actually rebuking
those who wrongfully divorce their spouse, not those who were
wrongfully divorced, or those who marry the wrongfully divorced
person.
It says also, "saving for the cause of fornication". There are
convincing arguments on both side, here, and I would have a hard time
concluding that anyone, who divorces their husband/wife, for the cause
of fornication, is absolutely sinning, or that anyone who remarries
after being wrongfully divorced, or who marries a wrongfully divorced
person, is absolutely sinning.
1 Corinthians 7 may also indicate that abandonment by an unbeliever
allows for the believer to remarry, since they are "not under
bondage". However, there are convincing arguments on both sides
(either that it is not talking about remarriage, but only that a
believer is not under the bondage of staying and contending with an
unbeliever who is unwilling to live with them, or that they are not
under the bondage of marriage, and are free to remarry).
Having said that, however, I do not want to appear as if I'm coming
down in favor of divorce and remarriage, since it is clearly God's
will that this does not occur. I'm simply saying that there may be
legitimate reasons why we should not try to stamp a red "D" on the
back of people who may have been wrongfully divorced, then remarried,
or who divorced for the cause of fornication, etc.
It must be nice to think of the world in such simplistic terms.
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