| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
21 Mar 2006 10:46:01 PM |
| Object: |
Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007304
The Bible Tells Me So
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
BY ADAM NICOLSON
Friday, September 23, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
Do we need to know what it says in the Bible? Are we somehow illiterate
if we don't? Up until, say, 100 years ago, biblical literacy would have
been practically mandatory. If you didn't know what "the powers that
be" originally referred to, or where "the writing on the wall" was
first seen, or what was meant by "the patience of Job," "Jacob's
ladder" or "the salt of the earth"--if you didn't know what an exodus
was or a genesis, a fatted or a golden calf--you would have been
excluded from the culture. It might be said that a civilization
consists, at its core, of these easily transmitted packages of
implication. They are one of the mechanisms by which cultures can be
both efficient and rich. You don't have to return to first principles
every time you wish to communicate. You can play your present tune on a
received instrument, knowing that your listener hears not only your own
music but the subtle melodies of those who played it before you. There
is a common wisdom in common knowledge. But does this Bible-informed
world still exist? I would guess that on the whole, and outside
committed Christian groups, biblical literacy is a thing of the past.
That long moment of Christian civilization is over. The lingua franca
of modern, English-speaking people is not dense with scriptural
allusion, just as the conversation of educated people no longer makes
reference to classical civilizations. If you dropped the names nowadays
of Nestor, Agamemnon or Pericles--every one of which would have come
trailing clouds of glory up to a century ago--you would, I think, draw
a near total blank from even educated listeners.
The references we make today are not to these ancient sources of
meaning. That is not to say that we don't have other sources; simply
that our models tend to come from more recognizable and more recent
worlds: We harken to Jefferson and Lincoln, Nelson and Churchill; to
Madonna not the Madonna, to Britney not Brutus. Does it matter that we
have tended to drop the old referential structures? Certainly the
people behind a new high-school textbook, released this week, think so.
"The Bible and Its Influence" is an exceptionally well-executed
introduction to the books of the Bible and the shaping effect that it
had on the writers and artists of Western civilization. It is a
scholarly, clear and richly illustrated amplification of the stories of
the Old and New Testaments. And where else will a high-school student
find out that the Eucharist was the inspiration for Beethoven's "Missa
Solemnis"? Or that when Hamlet calls Polonius "Jepthah," he is pointing
to the willingness of Ophelia's father to sacrifice his daughter for
his own advantage? The textbook's intention is to provide precisely the
kind of biblical understanding that has drained out of the culture in
the past century. (This sort of book itself has a long tradition:
family-accessible biblical exegeses began, in English anyway, with the
Geneva Bible, brought to this continent by the first settlers.) But
once such understanding is on the slide, is there anything to be done
about it? The Bible Literacy Project, which published the textbook,
aims to provide a way for students to read the Bible in public schools
without trampling on the rights of religious or secular families. But
the reasons that biblical literacy has declined are more deep-seated
than any First Amendment restrictions on the teaching of the Bible in
public schools. In Britain, where there are no such restrictions, the
understanding of biblical references has, if anything, sunk further.
This is not necessarily a disaster. Ignorance of the Bible does not
mean that we cannot respond to Shakespeare, Rembrandt or Bach. Just as
there is no need to be intimately familiar with the Greek myths to feel
the surging power and humanity of Homer, there is no need to know the
Bible in order to hear the passionate meanings of Martin Luther King
Jr.'s great speeches or the Gettysburg address. These works may be
fueled by the Bible, but they are not in code. What they mean
transcends their sources.
But if this loss of biblical literacy is not disastrous, it is at least
a shame, the fading of an aspect of our civilization that has enriched
it. Without the set of archetypes and fount of wisdom in the Bible, our
lives would be thinner and poorer. I know my own life would have been
immeasurably less if I had never encountered the majestic language of
scriptural stories, as told in the King James Version. I think of the
Bible as our great joint cathedral, a place where, as Philip Larkin
wrote in "Church Going," "someone will forever be surprising / A hunger
in himself to be more serious." "The Bible and Its Influence" could not
have been better made, but its publication is like putting a fence of
palings in a river. Change, made up of all sorts of powerful modern
forces, will continue to flow whatever high-minded educators do to
deflect it. Maybe a few people will be caught and held back from the
swift motion of the current by that fence. One can only hope so. Mr.
Nicolson is the author of "God's Secretaries" on the making of the King
James Bible.
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| User: "Amangi Machque" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
21 Mar 2006 10:53:21 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
--
Machque
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the
future." -Lumbee
"The one who tells the stories rules the world." -Hopi
"Sing your death song and die like a hero going home." -Shawnee
"A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many
regrets." -Arthur C. Clarke
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
23 Mar 2006 10:48:28 AM |
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"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
parakaleo
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| User: "Richard Smol" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
25 Mar 2006 04:26:04 PM |
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wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
By far the most Christians consume the Bible piecemeal, by letting
someone pick and choose the verses that seem to match, ignoring all the
others that contradict them.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Actually, reading the Bible fom cover to cover is a very good incentive
to become an atheist.
RS
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
23 Mar 2006 01:09:33 PM |
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wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
parakaleo
Why do you have to read all of it to understand any part of it?
If I skip over page after page of begats does this mean that I can;t
understand an absolute statements such as :
John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may
be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye
should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that
whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 16:22-24 (in Context) John 16 (Whole Chapter)
John 16:24
Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that
your joy may be full.
Why are these statements ingored even when a mother asks in the name of a
dying child?
But you've read the whole bible.
Where exactly does the bible delineate what laws may and may not be ignored
in today's world?
Why for exzample was charging interest for loans a sin until about the 14th
century?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:45:40 AM |
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"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
parakaleo@technicianheaven.com wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
parakaleo
Why do you have to read all of it to understand any part of it?
You don't have to read every page, but if you don't read more than
atheists do, you don't have the context. Atheists (and some
Christians too) tend to come up with an idea, then look in the Bible
for something that "looks like" it supports their case. That cannot
be called "biblical literacy."
If I skip over page after page of begats does this mean that I can;t
understand an absolute statements such as :
John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may
be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
But you DO have to read enouth to know who He is talking to and the
context He is speaking of in your asking.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye
should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that
whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 16:22-24 (in Context) John 16 (Whole Chapter)
John 16:24
Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that
your joy may be full.
Why are these statements ingored even when a mother asks in the name of a
dying child?
They aren't. Physical death for Christians has a different meaning
than it does for non-Christians. The end-result is different, and a
reason for rejoicing.
But you've read the whole bible.
Where exactly does the bible delineate what laws may and may not be ignored
in today's world?
Gal 3:21-25
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if
there had been a law given which could have given life, truly
righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has
confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ
might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were
kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward
be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we
are no longer under a tutor .
NKJV
Paul is referring to "the Law," all 613 of the OT Laws that
constituted "the Law."
We Christians are no longer under the Law. We are under the commands
of Jesus, sometimes referred to scripturally as "the law of Grace."
Why for exzample was charging interest for loans a sin until about the 14th
century?
If you are a Jew (still under the Law, not a Christian), scripture
still applies. If some Jewish "scholar" or if the rcc (they made
silly pronouncements like that sometimes) made such a claim, they did
not speak from anything in the Bible. Perhaps they spoke from the
legal system of that day.
parakaleo
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:53:03 AM |
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wrote:
"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
parakaleo
Why do you have to read all of it to understand any part of it?
You don't have to read every page, but if you don't read more than
atheists do, you don't have the context. Atheists (and some
Christians too) tend to come up with an idea, then look in the Bible
for something that "looks like" it supports their case. That cannot
be called "biblical literacy."
On the contrary, many atheists, including myself, have read the entire
Bible, and we find that many Christians do the exact thing you say
atheists do. Why else would these people who attack homosexuality
because something in Leviticus says it's wrong?
<snip>
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "Torture has never been a reliable means of *
* extracting information.... One wonders why it *
* is still practiced." --Jean-Luc Picard *
****************************************************
--
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
23 Mar 2006 12:13:03 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700,
wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Plenty have.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
Liar.
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Liar. It's what made many of them become atheist. Those atheists who
are ex-Christians.
Those atheists who were once Hindu, Muslim etc or were never theist at
all have no reason to read what is merely the irrelvant writings of
somebody else's religion.
parakaleo
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:30:29 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net>, posted this little bit of
stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700,
wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Plenty have.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
Liar.
Name calling is a childish game, practiced on the schoolground by
bullyish children. It doesn't make your case any stronger. It just
makes you look childish.
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Liar. It's what made many of them become atheist. Those atheists who
are ex-Christians.
A very small few. I would be willing to bet that less than .0001% of
atheists have read the Bible through.
and ex-Christians? If they are "ex," by definition they were never
Christians.
Those atheists who were once Hindu, Muslim etc or were never theist at
all have no reason to read what is merely the irrelvant writings of
somebody else's religion.
You have made my point. Atheists often comment about each of those
religions too, but Atheists have no reason to read the Bible, so their
comments are based upon ignorance, not upon knowledge of the Bible.
You have made my case for me. No further questions, yer honor!
parakaleo
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:20:33 PM |
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<parakaleo@technicianheaven.com> wrote in message
news:1d0822hc8q6i3psvol5ok9qtvphabpi6ll@4ax.com...
snip
A very small few. I would be willing to bet that less than .0001% of
atheists have read the Bible through.
And boy, would that be a bet you'd lose.
Numerous atheists on this newsgroup alone have read the bible - I'm one of
them.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:43:20 AM |
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On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:30:29 -0700,
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net>, posted this little bit of
stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700,
wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Plenty have.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
Liar.
Name calling is a childish game, practiced on the schoolground by
bullyish children. It doesn't make your case any stronger. It just
makes you look childish.
There was no name calling. You lied. The word for somebody who does
this, is "liar".
If you don't like this, the solutionis easy: stop lying about atheists
to atheists. It takes a sanctimonious hypocrite to ignore his own
rudeness and whine about being called a liar after he lied.
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Liar. It's what made many of them become atheist. Those atheists who
are ex-Christians.
A very small few. I would be willing to bet that less than .0001% of
atheists have read the Bible through.
And you'd be wrong. Because there is a large set of atheists who are
ex-Christian and became atheist because they read it.
But in any case the bible has no more relevance to atheists than eg
the Greek myths have to you.
and ex-Christians? If they are "ex," by definition they were never
Christians.
A standard Christian falsehood.
What do you imagine you are avchieving by your translarent lies?
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
23 Mar 2006 09:28:05 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
parakaleo
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:50:43 AM |
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Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com>, posted this little bit of
stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
Nice presupposition, but not true. Atheists who bother to read any of
the Bible read it with just as much bias as anyone else. The Atheists
read it with the intent of DISPROVING it. Christians who read it read
it with the intent of OBEYING it. BOTH positions are biases.
And the "minister?" NOBODY reads it to make it please him.
No Christian I have EVER met reads it that way. More bias from an
atheist, it appears.
parakaleo
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:55:51 AM |
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wrote:
Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com>, posted this little bit of
stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
Nice presupposition, but not true. Atheists who bother to read any of
the Bible read it with just as much bias as anyone else. The Atheists
read it with the intent of DISPROVING it.
Not true. I read it with an open mind. I found it to be "historical
fantasy."
Christians who read it read
it with the intent of OBEYING it. BOTH positions are biases.
And the "minister?" NOBODY reads it to make it please him.
So, why take the time to read it?
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "Torture has never been a reliable means of *
* extracting information.... One wonders why it *
* is still practiced." --Jean-Luc Picard *
****************************************************
--
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 09:17:57 AM |
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wrote:
Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com>, posted this little bit of
stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
Nice presupposition, but not true. Atheists who bother to read any of
the Bible read it with just as much bias as anyone else. The Atheists
read it with the intent of DISPROVING it. Christians who read it read
it with the intent of OBEYING it. BOTH positions are biases.
===>Most "non-believers" are former THEISTS, who believed what
the Church teaches about the Bible, but, after thoroughly studying it,
they realized what a lie that teaching really was.
And the "minister?" NOBODY reads it to make it please him.
===>To make it confirm their sectarian teachings.
They ignore or argue away anything that contradicts them
No Christian I have EVER met reads it that way.
===>How many Christians have you met?
How many do you know who has made a serious study of the matter?
Probably none. -- L.
.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
25 Mar 2006 05:06:55 PM |
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On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:50:43 -0700, wrote:
Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com>, posted this little bit of
stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
Nice presupposition, but not true. Atheists who bother to read any of
the Bible read it with just as much bias as anyone else. The Atheists
read it with the intent of DISPROVING it. Christians who read it read
it with the intent of OBEYING it. BOTH positions are biases.
Most atheists would be happy to be proven wrong. We are atheists because we see
no evidence for any gods and plenty of evidence that all gods are man made.
We see the Bible the way it is written with no desire to make it say anything else.
Christians have their own agenda to make the Bible say what they want it to say.
And the "minister?" NOBODY reads it to make it please him.
No Christian I have EVER met reads it that way. More bias from an
atheist, it appears.
What do you think Bible study is if not a means of propagating the views of the
minister? Sermons are about how you should interpret the Bible.
Christians insist that God is good because that is what they are told, while the state
of the world proves beyond doubt there is no good God.
parakaleo
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
23 Mar 2006 10:56:53 PM |
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Barry OGrady wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
===>Well stated. -- L.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:51:08 AM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth>, posted this little
bit of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
===>Well stated. -- L.
But wrong.
Parakaleo
.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
25 Mar 2006 04:57:56 PM |
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On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:51:08 -0700, wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth>, posted this little
bit of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
===>Well stated. -- L.
But wrong.
If you really think that tell us in what way it is wrong.
Parakaleo
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
25 Mar 2006 06:59:56 PM |
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Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:51:08 -0700, wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth>, posted this little
bit of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:28 -0700, wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
biblically illiterate.
I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
have read it through more than once.
Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Atheists are able to read the Bible without bias while the theist is always
on the lookout to make the Bible say what they or their minister want it
to say.
===>Well stated. -- L.
But wrong.
If you really think that tell us in what way it is wrong.
===>He doesn't know that.
It just "feels wrong" to him.
Like sobriety to an alcoholic. -- L.
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| User: "Amangi Machque" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
23 Mar 2006 09:44:25 PM |
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parakaleo wrote
: "Amangi Machque" posted:
: >"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: >: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
: >
: >Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
: >biblically illiterate.
:
: I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
: Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
: have read it through more than once.
There are many atheists that have read the bible through. In my case,
several times. Not to mention hours upon hours of study for over 30 years.
: Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
: the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
: here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
: opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Please support you assertion with some real facts. I'll be waiting. It seems
to me that you are the one who is delusional and making sweeping conjectures
while knowing absolutely NOTHING about what you are talking about!
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:58:45 AM |
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"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
parakaleo wrote
: "Amangi Machque" posted:
: >"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: >: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
: >
: >Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
: >biblically illiterate.
:
: I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
: Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
: have read it through more than once.
There are many atheists that have read the bible through. In my case,
several times. Not to mention hours upon hours of study for over 30 years.
You are the very RARE exception.
: Atheists often suffer from such delusions as thinking they understand
: the Bible without ever having read more than a little snippet of hit
: here and a little snippet of it there. They frequently have sweeping
: opinions of the Bible while knowing NOTHING about it!
Please support you assertion with some real facts. I'll be waiting. It seems
to me that you are the one who is delusional and making sweeping conjectures
while knowing absolutely NOTHING about what you are talking about!
My conjectures are no more delusional or sweeping than the claim you
cut out of your post that said that atheists were more biblically
literate than Christians.
And my opinion is just as good as yours.
You give me citable proof that athiests know more of the Bible than
Christians do, then I will consider presenting evidence to support my
own opinion. :-)
parakaleo
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 08:21:12 PM |
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<parakaleo@technicianheaven.com> wrote in message
news:gr1822lbd9gn4vfosjcqrclt2gcc3dt27i@4ax.com...
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
parakaleo wrote
: "Amangi Machque" posted:
: >"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: >: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
: >
: >Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
: >biblically illiterate.
:
: I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
: Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
: have read it through more than once.
There are many atheists that have read the bible through. In my case,
several times. Not to mention hours upon hours of study for over 30 years.
You are the very RARE exception.
How would you know? Care to back up that assertion with actual facts?
Didn't think so.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "Thandarr" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 09:45:31 PM |
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I think it is unfortunate that we are generally less culturally
literate than we should be. It's not just lack of knowledge of the
Bible, but we are generally ignorant of our classical heritage as well.
There are many atheists, agnostics, and heretics who are very
knowledgeable about the Bible. I have run into very few agnostics,
atheists, heretics, etc who don't know much about the Bible. I know
some Christians who are very knowledgeable about the Bible, and others
who obviously know little more about it than they've learned by osmosis
living in a predominantly Christian society.
I think the problem is that if one is not very interested in religion,
s/he will take the easy route. Assume the majority is right. Just
stick with what you've been told and don't worry about it. This isn't
a criticism of those people. I do that all the time with subjects I'm
not interested in. To the extent I hold any opinions about
professional sports it's because I'm pretty much blindly accepting
common beliefs without doing any independent study, research, or work.
For instance, I think professional wrestling is a sham and professional
boxing is actual competition merely because that's what the majority
accept. I don't care, and if public opinion shifted I'd gladly accept
wrestling as real and boxing as fake. In most questions of science, I
accept the generally accepted conclusions of the experts just because
it isn't worth the trouble for me to figure it out for myself. While
I've studied evolution rather intensively (for a layperson), that's
only because I like evolution. I have strong opinions about
linguistics because I love linguistics. As far as physics or chemistry
is concerned, I accept withou reservation what the experts say, because
it's not interesting enough for me to figure it out for myself. I'm
not afraid to say "I don't know," when I don't know. I know that maybe
my blind acceptance of generally accepted knowledge is wrong somewhere,
but I'm not sure where. Some things I believe are dead wrong. I just
don't know what those somethings are.
If religion is not interesting to you, then you look around you and say
four out of five people say they're Christians, I'll go along with
that. But if you're going to reject conventional wisdom and set
yourself apart from the herd, especially if that is likely to subject
you to ostracism and difficulty, you're probably going to have a
reason. For some people that reason is going to be the rejection of
the generally accepted religion after sincere study.
Knowledgeable, sincere, and devout Christians often do know a lot about
the Bible. Run of the mill, me-too Christians are less knowledgeable.
Dedicated sincere atheists often know a lot about the Bible, too. They
have to read the Bible to know what they dont' believe in. None of
these groups know much about the REAL gods. :-) But that's for a
different day.
The truth is that I should be reading and studying, rather than posting
this long noncommital screed. I'm interested in religion, but not
interested enough to have read the complete Bible. I've studied the
New Testament and the Pentateuch hard (except Numbers and some of
Deuteronomy but I can't say the "three and a half" ateuch in Greek).
I've never finished the Quran, the apocrypha, or even started the
Upanishads.
Thandarr
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
24 Mar 2006 09:30:11 AM |
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wrote:
"Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>, posted this little bit
of stuff:
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
parakaleo wrote
: "Amangi Machque" posted:
: >"Sound of Trumpet" wrote
: >: Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
: >
: >Especially when atheists are biblically literate, but believers are
: >biblically illiterate.
:
: I don't think I have EVER met an atheist who had actually READ the
: Bible through, but I know MANY MANY Christians (including myself) who
: have read it through more than once.
There are many atheists that have read the bible through. In my case,
several times. Not to mention hours upon hours of study for over 30 years.
You are the very RARE exception.
===>You are very uninformed about the matter.
SEE:
http://secularlife.org/new/essays/lw1.php
.
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
22 Mar 2006 10:22:59 AM |
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Fundie brat babbled:
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Indeed. Only by actually reading the wholly babble can one understand just
what a pile of roasted ***** it is.
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
Why I am not a christian:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus/nojebus
.
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
22 Mar 2006 04:08:49 AM |
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In article <1143002761.410250.126620@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007304
The Bible Tells Me So
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Not really. Most people don't know any of the thousands of nasty, stupid
and downright harmful things "hidden" in the book-o-blood. It's for the
best, honest.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
22 Mar 2006 02:01:12 PM |
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"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-5EE9E4.05061122032006@news.east.earthlink.net...
In article <1143002761.410250.126620@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007304
The Bible Tells Me So
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Not really. Most people don't know any of the thousands of nasty, stupid
and downright harmful things "hidden" in the book-o-blood. It's for the
best, honest.
You have something against just wars?
BAM
.
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| User: "*nemo*" |
|
| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
22 Mar 2006 06:29:37 PM |
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In article <B_hUf.1157$sU4.641@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-5EE9E4.05061122032006@news.east.earthlink.net...
In article <1143002761.410250.126620@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007304
The Bible Tells Me So
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Not really. Most people don't know any of the thousands of nasty, stupid
and downright harmful things "hidden" in the book-o-blood. It's for the
best, honest.
You have something against just wars?
BAM
Justice is in the eye of the beholder. War is a failure on the part of
humans to find better solutions to problems. Of course, this is not a
piece of wisdom you'll find in the book-o-blood. Keep that in mind.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
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| User: "bam" |
|
| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
22 Mar 2006 09:11:42 PM |
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"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-FAA1D8.19265922032006@news.east.earthlink.net...
In article <B_hUf.1157$sU4.641@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-5EE9E4.05061122032006@news.east.earthlink.net...
In article <1143002761.410250.126620@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007304
The Bible Tells Me So
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Not really. Most people don't know any of the thousands of nasty,
stupid
and downright harmful things "hidden" in the book-o-blood. It's for the
best, honest.
You have something against just wars?
BAM
Justice is in the eye of the beholder. War is a failure on the part of
humans to find better solutions to problems. Of course, this is not a
piece of wisdom you'll find in the book-o-blood. Keep that in mind.
If justice is in the eye of the beholder, then there's no such thing. So
just say that you don't believe in just wars because you don't believe in
justice. Save us the bs.
BAM
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Do We Need To Know What The Bible Says? |
22 Mar 2006 08:28:16 PM |
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in article B_hUf.1157$sU4.641@bignews4.bellsouth.net, bam at
mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net wrote on 3/22/06 3:01 PM:
"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-5EE9E4.05061122032006@news.east.earthlink.net...
In article <1143002761.410250.126620@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007304
The Bible Tells Me So
Biblical illiteracy is a shame.
Not really. Most people don't know any of the thousands of nasty, stupid
and downright harmful things "hidden" in the book-o-blood. It's for the
best, honest.
You have something against just wars?
Bam must...that's why he's in Florida and not Iraq.
Paul
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