On 7 Jan 2007 19:35:21 -0800, "Dr. R. Knapp" <rwknapp@aim.com> wrote:

Bible Bob wrote:

On 6 Jan 2007 18:43:22 -0800, "Dr. R. Knapp" <rwknapp@aim.com> wrote:

G-Net wrote:

<the_trinity_is_truth@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167693256.682889.149710@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

My answer No to both questions, what is your opinion.

There is nothing in scripture that says that baptism is what saves us. Jesus
said that He was the way, the truth and the life. Jesus also said that no
one would come to the Father except through Him. Baptism is a public
declaration of what has happened on the inside but is not required for
salvation.

I always wonder why people say there is nothing in scripture, which
shows they did not check the scriptures. 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure
whereunto even baptism doth also now save us

(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a
good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: KJV

I kind of agree with you here, but there is verse that still supports
what you say is not in the Bible, it is public and done for all to see.
Only Jesus did say this also: Mark 16:16-17
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Then if a person says they love someone and does not get married to
that person, one could question their commitment to each other.
Baptism is like a wedding ring or church wedding before everyone. If
one does not want to get married then one can question their statement.

Raymond

Raymond,

I have no problem with water baptism. If a little water keeps the
unlearned in the tithe and offering mood so pastors can support their
familes; so be it. I guess it is not as very big sin to call Jesus a
liar in todays society.

Then the Jews did call Jesus a liar and did so offen. I suppose the
real sin is to know Jesus is not a liar and call Jesus a liar anyway.

What Jesus said in Mark 16 and Acts 1 should be read together:

Mark 16:16 KJV
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 1:5 KJV
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the
Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus did not mention water in Mark 16 and in Acts 1 Jesus says that
holsy spirit baptism supercedes water baptism. Since both statements
were made after the resurrection and just prior to the ascension and
shortly before Pentecost when the gift was first given it is apparent
that Jesus was speaking about spiritual baptism and not water baptism.

Then the only baptism they had till Jesus rose from the dead was Water,
so it did not have to be mention to be understood to mean water. For a
person can be baptized in water, as that is what they do, the Spirit
Bapitsm really has nothing to do with the believer doing anything, it
is the Spirit that does it to them.

They could not have had spirit baptism before it became available and
it did not become available until ten days after Jesus foretold it.
The point being that the greater supercedes the lesser. It could not
supercede the lesser until it became available and that did not happen
until Pentecost. A law or rule that supercedes another, replaces it.

In Acts 2:38 water is not mentioned and when water is mentioned in
Acts it is when things did not occur as they were supposed to. In
Acts 8:12 water is not mentioned - what did Simon see? He saw
manifestation of the spirit; not wet people. Philip did baptize the
eunuch in water in the next chapter. Philip was wisjed away
immediately after dipping the eunuch. Why?

You seem to have left out that water was mentioned and they were
baptized after the Holy Spirit baptism. So again both were mention and
that does fit what Jesus said about water and the born again of the
Spirit. In John 3.

No water is mentioned in Acts 2:38. In fact in Acts 2:38 Peter
promised the people that they would receive into manifestation holy
spirit. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. Peter spoke of a
remission that followed repentance. The baptism was in the name of
Jesus Christ and the name of Jesus Christ represents all that Jesus
Christ is including his words. Jesus Christ said to Peter and the
eleven that they would manifest power after they were baptized in
spirit (Acts 1:6,8). It was in that context that Peter was speaking
when he spoke to the Jews present on Pentecost. He had just
experienced the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy and was speaking about
it to the Jews.

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in
the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I didn't leave out water. I mentioned it where it was mentioned. It
was not mentioned in Acts 2:38 or Acts 8:12; but was mentioned
concerning the eunuch just as I said.

The book of Acts is often miscalled the "Acts of the Apostles". God
did not give iot that name; men did. It is not a record of the Acts
of the Apostles. It is a record of the Acts of the spiirit in the
lives of men and women in the new church. It is a record of the rise
and expansion of the first century church the blueprint for the church
of God which has not been followed since the first century. In Acts,
we see that the followers of Jesus learned as they grew. They did not
get all of the revelation at one time; but bit by bit as God gave it
to them. They learned a they grew. Consider Acts 11:16.

In Acts 19, Paul corrects the wrong doctrine:

Acts 19:2 KJV
He said unto them, Have ye received [Gr. lambano] the Holy Ghost since
ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard
whether there be any Holy Ghost.

I do not see this as a correction, since they did not know it, it was
all new to them, so an addition would be better. To know and not do,
would need a one to correct them.

I see your point. Apollos did the best he could knowing only what he
knew. But what he knew was not uptodate doctrine. Paul did not
ridicule or condemn Apollos for preaching wrong doctrine; Paul simply
corrected it and the people responded to the correct doctrine.

Jesus never said any such thing! Water and Spirit baptism both are in
and will be till Jesus comes and changes it. Paul did not confirm your
statement as it was not what Jesus said or the early church believed.
Where do you come off saying such things and making your own comments
and applying them to Jesus or Paul?

Acts 1:5 KJV
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the
Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 11:16 KJV
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed
baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:3 KJV
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said,
Unto John's baptism.

Acts 19:5 KJV
When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord
Jesus.

There's where I get my authority to say what I said. My authority

comes from the word of God; not simple assertion that something is so
because I or tradition says so. I do stand corrected for using the
wrong words for the sake of emphasis. I should have said that
Christ's baptism supercedes John's baptism and left it at that. The
word of God confirms that water baptism was replaced by spirit
baptism. Does it hurt to baptize with water? Yes, because it is a
tool to get people to follow men rather than the spirit and Christ -
to walk via the flesh rather than via the spirit. But most people
won't see that because they have been indoctrinated into the worlds
religious systems and trained to think the way they are told to think
rather than submitting themselves to the word of truth.

I have no religious affiliation and am free to read and think and do
the word of truth.

I think you will find that the Bible speaks of the bride as Israel and
Christ as the Bridegroom. There are two churches; the church of the
body of Christ which includes you and I and the church of the bride
that is made up of the Jews. We are the body of the Bridegroom; not
the bride as religious tradition teaches.

Don't you see that spirit baptism is the gift and not of man's works?

You and I repented and were baptized in spirit. Spirit baptism is of
grace and water baptism is of works. It's not "in a way" that counts;
but "the Way" that counts and what the Way says is so. There is no
evidence of truth in water baptism. There is evidence of truth in

spirit baptism. There is no manifestation of the spirit in water
baptism but thee is manifestation of spirit in spirit baptism. Water
baptism is nothing more than five senses evidence to those who are
baptized in water and those viewing the ceremony that the person is
joining the group; not the body of Christ. Proof of membership in the
body of Christ is the manifestation of the spirit and nothing less
than that.

Seriously, some would love to make Jesus an impotent savior unable to
save those who are dieing in a desert where there is no water. If all

Sure many do like to try such, but just because they want something to
be doesn't make it so. Well if I find someone in some desert that is
dying and has no water to be baptized, I am sure Jesus would provide
water, or understand the matter and it would be up to Him to accept or
reject, not I or a preacher. I remember someone wanting to be prayed
for that was sick and needed oil, there was none, then one person want
out to the car and got the dipstick and put a little dark oil on the
sick and that person did get well very fast. Then we could go on and
on with such What IF stuff, is the water suppose to be clean or
running, maybe salt water or spring water, I have baptized in all of
these kinds of water, little and lots of it, Fast moving where I almost
lost a sister that I put in the water and she lost her footing and
started to go down stream with the running water. I got her in a few
feet.

Don't you see what you are talking about, Raymond? You are talking
about five senses religion. Oil is not needed to heal. It is used to

help overcome unbelief. Water is not needed to save; the blood of
Jesus Christ is all that is needed. Some teach that baptism in water
is required for a person to be saved. The Word of God does not say
that. Peter said, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. Peter
did not say be baptized in water in John's name. Paul said, confess
Jesus as Lord and beleive that God raised Jesus from the dead. Paul
did not say, be baptized in water to be saved.

See my reply as:

"Anon false-christian coward sure is obsessed"

This sicko, obsessed, Satanic gutless, anon, false-christian scum
sure doesn't like to see the truth posted out here about his
filthy man made trinity, eh?