many dont seem to be able to differentiate between secular
or Bible understanding.

Hi Randy!

I try to stay out of all this in that the original
message didn't concern me even though in all
actuality it does! I am wondering why those
who have been beating on you and Dave are so
afraid to give their opinions 1 Corinthians.

Seems to me that they all know in their minds
you and Dave are so wrong but yet are afraid
to tackle the Scriptures in question for them
selves!

This is what happened in the last great
flame war. It flamed until everyone took it upon
themselves to search out answers for them
selves to make sure they completely understood
the subject! When they finally did cool heads
begin to prevail and the war ended!

Some claimed a victory <snip>

Randy wrote:

On Sat, 7 Oct 2006 22:31:09 +0100,
in article <otOdndAMZtjOgbXYRVnyvA@eclipse.net.uk>,
"Vic" <someone@home.co.uk> wrote:

"Randy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:l48ei2ln84mepm1gpudd8bd1qe30lcj46c@pulpitfire.org...

One way to help determine whether someone's doctrine is truth or
error, is based on how the world responds to it.

The world certainly does here your theology about having 'Rights'

The only problem is, neither I or the Bible are talking about "my"
rights, or the "man's" rights. We are talking about your
responsibility (whether you are a husband or wife) to give your spouse
their rights to receive "due" benevolence, and not to be defrauded
(robbed) of them. Since God gives your spouse power over your body,
and not you, you are making a physical abuse of power against your
spouse, when you rob them of "due" benevolence!

Then, you have the guts to try to make it all mean just the opposite
of what it actually says. *You* try to twist Scripture in a way that
makes it look like the spouse who defrauds their spouse of due
benevolence, actually has a God given *right* to veto power over their
spouse, and that *they* are the victim of a selfish abuser, if they
are required to render "due" benevolence to their spouse!

The world, and you, argue for your personal right to defraud your
spouse, by saying "no", in direct contradiction to what I and the
Bible teaches. So, sorry, you and those who agree with you, and the
world, do not hear what 1 Corinthians or we have been saying, but you
do hear and congratulate each other, in contradiction to what the
Bible and we have been saying.

Which is it Randy;
Are you a Christian who is not your own, because you were bought with a
price, or are you still in the world?

You're the one claiming spouses don't have the responsibility to
render due benevolence, even though they were bought with a price, by
the Lord. You couldn't be promoting a more perfect contradiction to
what the Bible teaches, or be in better agreement with what the world,
who endorses you believes.

1 John 4

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the
world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of
God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit
of error.

Hi Randy!

I try to stay out of all this in that the original
message didn't concern me even though in all
actuality it does! I am wondering why those
who have been beating on you and Dave are so
afraid to give their opinions 1 Corinthians.

Seems to me that they all know in their minds
you and Dave are so wrong but yet are afraid
to tackle the Scriptures in question for them
selves! This is what happened in the last great
flame war. It flamed until everyone took it upon
themselves to search out answers for them
selves to make sure they completely understood
the subject! When they finally did cool heads
begin to prevail and the war ended!

Some claimed a victory, and still make sure to
tell everyone who will listen every now and then
how great they were in battle, a lot admitted they
were wrong, many apologized and moved on with
their lives, and many were hurt- and still are. The
really sad part about this is the number of non-be-
lievers who are being thronged to for help, advice
support, you name it- even Bible interpretation
like they are the experts and the Christians dont
know anything!

The redundant part in some of this is many dont
seem to be able to differentiate between secular
or Bible understanding. Many dont even care they
cant separate their logic and sensibility over this
matter!

I am going to try an experiment to see if I can help
this subject get back on track so it can be brought
to a sane and sensible conclusion so we can all
once again get back to business as usual. I'm go-
ing to print a message which will give all concerned
a chance see what it is they are arguing about and
try to make moves to bring everybody back on to
the same page!

Dont forget to add carnal minded Christiandom (sic) to the list!

Don't forget to add ratbag fundamentalist Christendom to the list.

Why can't fundamentalists spell?

You understood my meaning whats' (sic) your excuse

"Jude Alexander" wrote:

One way to help determine whether someone's doctrine is truth or
error, is based on how the world responds to it.

Piggybacking

HAHAHA I guess that was true when slavery was around! WINK WINK All
those freedom fighting people going against the bible!!!

Ratbags from the south of the USA used the bible to condone slavery!!!!!

Who was correct - them or the rest of the civilised world??????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Passages from the Christian Scriptures which Sanction Slavery

Neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as
saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery. Slavery was
very much a part of life in Palestine and in the rest of the Roman Empire
during New Testament times. Quoting Rabbi M.J. Raphall, circa 1861,
"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament
nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even
preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent
Christian teachers [St. Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his
runaway slave." 1


People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in
New Testament times:


Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him
to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment
to be made."


Priests still owned slaves:


Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of
the maids of the high priest:"


Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is
important to realize that the term "servant" in the King James Version of
the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid.
Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with
many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but
who
did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.


This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the
institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of
having taken it:


Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day
when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will
cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But
he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten
with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much
required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the
more."


One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's
infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that
they obey Christ:


Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your
heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the
servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will
doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever
good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether
he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them,
forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven;
neither is there respect of persons with him."


Other passages instructing slaves and slave owners in proper behavior are:


Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just
and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."


1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count
their
own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be
not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise
them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they
are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and
exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words,
even
the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according
to godliness;"


In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in
the very near future. This might have demotivated him from speaking out
against slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire. Also he
regarded slaves as persons of worth whom at least God considers of
importance. St. Paul mentioned that both slaves and free persons are sons
of God, and thus all part of the body of Christ and spiritually equal.


1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one
body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have
been all made to drink into one Spirit."


Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus."
Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision
nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all,
and in all."


St. Paul apparently saw no evil in the concept of one person owning
another as a piece of property. In his Letter to Philemon, he had every
opportunity to discuss the immorality of slave-owning, but declined to do
so.


Deuteronomy 23:15-16, cited above, requires a Jew to protect a runaway
slave, and to not return him/her to their owner.. However, St. Paul
violated the law. While in prison, he met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the
slave of a Christian. He was presumably owned by Pheliemon. Rather than
give the slave sanctuary, he returned him to his owner. Paul seems to hint
that he would like Pheliemon to give Onesimus his freedom, but does not
actually request it. See the Letter to Philemon in the Christian
Scriptures.

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm

"Jude Alexander" wrote:

One way to help determine whether someone's doctrine is truth or
error, is based on how the world responds to it.

Piggybacking

HAHAHA I guess that was true when slavery was around! WINK WINK All
those freedom fighting people going against the bible!!!

Ratbags from the south of the USA used the bible to condone slavery!!!!!

Who was correct - them or the rest of the civilised world??????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Passages from the Christian Scriptures which Sanction Slavery

Neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as
saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery. Slavery was
very much a part of life in Palestine and in the rest of the Roman Empire
during New Testament times. Quoting Rabbi M.J. Raphall, circa 1861,
"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament
nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even
preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent
Christian teachers [St. Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his
runaway slave." 1


People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in
New Testament times:


Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him
to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment
to be made."


Priests still owned slaves:


Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of
the maids of the high priest:"


Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is
important to realize that the term "servant" in the King James Version of
the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid.
Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with
many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but
who
did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.


This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the
institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of
having taken it:


Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day
when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will
cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But
he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten
with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much
required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the
more."


One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's
infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that
they obey Christ:


Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your
heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the
servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will
doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever
good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether
he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them,
forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven;
neither is there respect of persons with him."


Other passages instructing slaves and slave owners in proper behavior are:


Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just
and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."


1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count
their
own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be
not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise
them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they
are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and
exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words,
even
the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according
to godliness;"


In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in
the very near future. This might have demotivated him from speaking out
against slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire. Also he
regarded slaves as persons of worth whom at least God considers of
importance. St. Paul mentioned that both slaves and free persons are sons
of God, and thus all part of the body of Christ and spiritually equal.


1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one
body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have
been all made to drink into one Spirit."


Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus."
Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision
nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all,
and in all."


St. Paul apparently saw no evil in the concept of one person owning
another as a piece of property. In his Letter to Philemon, he had every
opportunity to discuss the immorality of slave-owning, but declined to do
so.


Deuteronomy 23:15-16, cited above, requires a Jew to protect a runaway
slave, and to not return him/her to their owner.. However, St. Paul
violated the law. While in prison, he met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the
slave of a Christian. He was presumably owned by Pheliemon. Rather than
give the slave sanctuary, he returned him to his owner. Paul seems to hint
that he would like Pheliemon to give Onesimus his freedom, but does not
actually request it. See the Letter to Philemon in the Christian
Scriptures.


From http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm

"Jude Alexander" wrote:

One way to help determine whether someone's doctrine is truth or
error, is based on how the world responds to it.

Piggybacking

HAHAHA I guess that was true when slavery was around! WINK WINK All
those freedom fighting people going against the bible!!!

Ratbags from the south of the USA used the bible to condone slavery!!!!!

Who was correct - them or the rest of the civilised world??????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Passages from the Christian Scriptures which Sanction Slavery

Neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as
saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery.

very much a part of life in Palestine and in the rest of the Roman Empire
during New Testament times.

"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament
nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even
preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent
Christian teachers [St. Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his
runaway slave." 1


People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in
New Testament times:


Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him
to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to
be made."

Priests still owned slaves:


Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the
maids of the high priest:"

Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables.

important to realize that the term "servant" in the King James Version of
the Bible refers to slaves,

Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with
many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who
did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.

This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the
institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of
having taken it:

Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day
when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will
cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he
that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with
few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much
required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the
more."

One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's
infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that
they obey Christ:


Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your
heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the
servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will
doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good
thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be
bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing
threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there
respect of persons with him."