| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
20 Nov 2007 07:17:48 AM |
| Object: |
Early Preterist Statements |
Early Preterist Statements: The Early Church and
the End of the World
Administration.
What did the earliest of the early Christian writers
actually believe about prophetic events? We can
only answer this question by actually studying what
they wrote. The number one question today is
(How come the Church did not see the view).
There are a number of early writers who made significant
preterist statements. All it takes is going to the writings
of the early church fathers and doing a little research to
learn the truth of the matter. The church fathers back that
far did not write much about Jerusalem, but some of them
did. Think deeply on these things.
Eusebius records the statement that James (brother of Jesus,
writer of the book of James) made just before (c. 63 A.D.)
he was pushed off the temple to the pavement below when
he was being martyred for his faith in Jerusalem: "Why do
ye ask me respecting Jesus the Son of Man? He is now
sitting in the heavens, on the right hand of great Power,
and "is about to come on the clouds of heaven" ( Eusebius'
Esslesiastical History, Book 2, Ch.23; cf James 5:8,9).
Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation (i.e the
antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation) occurred
at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D."...
these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each
particular of its progress, when finally "the abomination of
desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood
in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which
now was approaching its total downfall and final destruction
by fire; all this, I say, any one that wishes may see
accurately stated in the history written by Josephus"
(Eusebius; Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch.5).
After quoting sections of Matt. 24:19-21; Lk. 19:41ff
and Lk. 21:20, 23, 24.
Eusebius says this about the destruction of Jerusalem:
"All this occurred" in this manner, in the second year
of the reign of Vespasian (70 A.D.), according to the
predictions of our Christ...On comparing the declarations
of our Saviour which the other parts of Josephus work,
where he describes the whole war, "how can one fail
to acknowledge" and wonder at the truth divine and
extraordinary foreknowledge and prediction of our
Saviour?" (Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3. Ch.7).
Eusebius declares that the Great Commission had been
accomplished by the time Jerusalem was destroyed in
A.D. 70 (cf. Matt. 24:14): "Of who (Christ), indeed
"at this very time, the sound of the holy apostles went
throughout all the earth, and their words to the ends
of the world" (Eusebius Esslesiastical History, Book 3,
Ch. 8; cf. Rom. 10:18; Col. 1:6,23).
Athanasius declares "For now that "He has come" to our
realm, and taken up his abode in one body among His
peers, henceforth the whole conspiracy of the enemy
against mankind in checked, and "the corruption of death
which before was prevailing against them is done away".
For the race of men had gone to ruin had not the Lord
and Saviour of all, the Son of God, come among us to
meet "the end of death" (Athanasius' On the Incarnation
of the Word, Section 9 Verse 4; cf. 1 Cor. 15:21-26).
In reference to the Jews' rejection of Jesus as the Massiah
and their interpertation of the seventy weeks of Daniel 9,
Athanasius has this to say: "Perhaps with regard to the
other "prophecies" they may be able even to find excuses
and to put off what is written to a future time. But what
can they say to this, or can they face it at all? Where not
only is the Christ refrred to, but He that is to be anointed
is declared to be not man simply, but Holy of Holies; and
"Jerusalem is to stand till His coming, and thenceforth,
prophet and vision cease in Israel" (Athanasius; On
the Incarnation of the Word, Section 39 Verse 3; cf.
Dan. 9:24ff).
One doesn't have to look too closely to find some real
gems. We just didn't recognize them as early preterist
statements.. Here are some examples of a few of
the earliest:
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-193-217), in The Stromata,
or Miscellanies, Book 1 page 329, in The Ante- Nicene
Fathers, vol. 2, placed the abomination of desolation of
Daniel's 70th week prophecy, in the time of Nero. He said:
'in the one week; was He Lord. The half of the week Nero
and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho,
and Gaiba, and Vitallus. And Vespasian rose to the supreme
power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the
Holy place".
Earlier that Clement of Alexandria, was Clement of Rome,
who wrote to James and told him what Peter had to the
Jews, thusly: "For we; said I, 'have ascertained beyond
doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices
which you offer the time of sacrifices having now passed
away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time
for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall
be destroyed, and the abomination of desolation shall stand
in the holy place; and then the Gospel shall be preached to
the Gentiles for a testimony against you....; "When I had
thus spoken, the whole multitude of the priests were in
a rage, because I had foretold to them the overthrow of
the temple...;' (Clement, p 94, vol. 8, The Ante-Nicene
Fathers).
Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian (145-220) told of how
the coming of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem
was a fulfillment of predictions that had been made in
Daniel 9:26. He said: Accordingly the times must be
inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the
Christ, and of His passion and of the extermination of
the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel
says, that 'both the holy city and the holy place are
exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that
the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin; And so the times
of the coming Christ, the leader, must be inquired into,
which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them,
shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the
times prescribed, of the consequences which were ever
announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may
believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.
"In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him,
as to show both when and in what time He was to set the
nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that
city had to be exterminated;, (The Ante-Nicene Fathers,
vol. 3, p. 158).
Tertullian was also a preterist in his interpretations of
Zechariah 14:4. He said, "But at night He went out to
the Mount of Olives; For thus had Zechariah pointed out:
'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of
Olives;'" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 417).
Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation
(i.e. the antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation)
occurred at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in
70 A.D "...(Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch5).
As one can easily see, the preterist position was taught
by various writer clear back to the time of the apostles.
They originally understood rightly that the time of
fulfillment was to be imminent until the middle of the
second century when they began to abandon that and
suggest the delay/ postponement ideas. When the
remaining fulfillment's associated with Christ's parousia
did not occur in the physical-literal way they had expected,
they assumed they had not been fulfilled at all. The same
problem persists today, and can be solved by following
correct Biblical interpretation methods. We need to get
back to the study of Biblical Judaism.
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
If your bible is falling apart, chances are your life
is staying together.
.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Early Church believed His Word |
22 Nov 2007 02:59:59 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Knave" < SATAN_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ojn5k39mmu5cvbvksn80p80c29pk8a14ob@4ax.com...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In scripture the rapture is described in 1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive
and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the
Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. It is our being
caught up to meet the Lord. As He promised I go to prepare a place for you
and I will come again, and receive you unto myself (John 14:2-3).
The word rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible deinde
nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur ***** illis in nubibus obviam
Domino in aera et sic semper ***** Domino erimus. The we...shall be caught up
in English is rapiemur in Latin. Rapiemur is the future passive of the Latin
verb for to seize away [rapio, -ere, rapui, raptum], and the English word
rapture comes from the future participle of rapio [rapturus, -a, -um], just
as the English word capture comes from the Latin word capio.
Our Lord was referring to the rapture in Matt 24:30-31 when He said, And
then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his
angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. However, the
rapture is only part of this thorough gathering of all His elect. In
addition to the Christians who will be gathered into His rest (Heb 4:9), and
go to the place prepared (John 14:2-3), the heavenly city (Heb 11:16). The
enemy-of-the-gospel elect are also gathered: As concerning the gospel, they
are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved
for the fathers' sakes (Rom 11:28). They enter His wrath instead of His
rest: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest
(Ps 95:11). As we go to the place prepared for us, they are returned to
Israel: Ezek 37:12 Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause
you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel,
where they are saved after He has arrived And I will pour upon the house of
David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of
supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they
shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in
bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn (Zech
12:10) and For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their
sins (Rom 11:27). The gathering of his elect from the four winds, from one
end of heaven to the other is all of His elect.
In Matt 24:37 the Lord says, But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the
coming of the Son of man be, and in Gen 7:16-17 it is written And they that
went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and
the LORD shut him in. And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the
waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
The door was shut and the flood was on the earth. The door to His rest is
shut when the last gentile enters-in: For I would not, brethren, that ye
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own
conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of
the Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25)], as in the days of Noah, His wrath
will rain down upon the earth. We are also told that the rapture follows the
revealing of the man on sin: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be
not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor
by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man
deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a
falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is
worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself
that he is God (2 Thess 2:1-4). These verses not only tell us that His
coming and our being gathered to Him will follow the revealing of the
antichrist, but also tell us how he will be revealed. He will sit in the
temple shewing himself to be God by sitting in God's place: the mercy seat
between the cherubim on the ark of the covenant.
The time of the rapture is at the time when the two witnesses ascend into
heaven in Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto
them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their
enemies beheld them. The two witnesses are part of all His elect which are
gathered from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matt
24:31). They are changed, putting on immortality and ascending into heaven,
at the same time, the same twinkling of an eye, that we all are changed at
the last trump in Rev 11 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all
sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
(1Cor 15:51-53). The church enters His rest and the rest of mankind enters
His wrath.
The rest into which the church enters but His-enemy-of-the-gospel elect do
not enter is His day of rest Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in
David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear
his voice, harden not your hearts (Heb 4:7). It is the same day as the day
of the Lord But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in
the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements
shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein
shall be burned up (2Pet 3:10). It begins with His coming like a thief in
the night and ends at the end of His 1000 year reign when there is a new
heaven and a new earth And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" (Rev
21:1) and His bride, the church, descends in the place He prepared for her
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Rev 21:2).
It is written in 2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as
one day, and the day of His rest, the day of the Lord, is a 1000 year day,
which is the third day of the prophecy in Hosea 6:2 to Jews who will live in
His millennial reign After two days will he revive us: in the third day he
will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
What is revealed by the 1000 year days in scripture is a week of 1000 year
days with the last day of the week being the day of the Lord, the day of His
rest. The three days of Hosea 6:2, the three at the end of the week, are
what scripture calls the last days, and the first day is the day in which
Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died at the age of 930 But of the tree
of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day
that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:17).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Early Church Father Tertullian (circa 160-225 AD):
"But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although
before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be
after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of
Jerusalem, 'let down from heaven,'"[Five Books Against Marcion, Book 3,
Chapter 25]
Early Church Father Justin Martyr (circa 100-165 AD):
"We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is
as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was
a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ,
who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who
believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that
thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment
of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They
shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the
angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'"[ THE SECOND APOLOGY
OF JUSTIN FOR THE CHRISTIANS ADDRESSED TO THE ROMAN SENATE, Chap 81]
Early Church Father Irenaeus (circa 130-202 AD):
"For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall
it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: Thus the heaven and
the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a
conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested
upon the seventh day from all His works.' This is an account of the things
formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day
of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were
completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the
sixth thousand year. Irenaeus against Hersies, Book 5, Chap 28, sec 3
"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he
will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at
Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the
glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake
of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that
is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the
promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that 'many coming
from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob.'Irenaeus against Hersies, Book 5, Chap 30, sec 4
"The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of
the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the
dead." Irenaeus against Hersies, Book 5, Chap 33, sec 3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
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| User: "Gunny Freedom" |
|
| Title: Re: Early Preterist Statements |
20 Nov 2007 04:13:16 PM |
|
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In article <ojn5k39mmu5cvbvksn80p80c29pk8a14ob@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Early Preterist Statements: The Early Church and
the End of the World
Administration.
What did the earliest of the early Christian writers
actually believe about prophetic events? We can
only answer this question by actually studying what
they wrote. The number one question today is
(How come the Church did not see the view).
There are a number of early writers who made significant
preterist statements. All it takes is going to the writings
of the early church fathers and doing a little research to
learn the truth of the matter. The church fathers back that
far did not write much about Jerusalem, but some of them
did. Think deeply on these things.
Eusebius records the statement that James (brother of Jesus,
writer of the book of James) made just before (c. 63 A.D.)
he was pushed off the temple to the pavement below when
he was being martyred for his faith in Jerusalem: "Why do
ye ask me respecting Jesus the Son of Man? He is now
sitting in the heavens, on the right hand of great Power,
and "is about to come on the clouds of heaven" ( Eusebius'
Esslesiastical History, Book 2, Ch.23; cf James 5:8,9).
Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation (i.e the
antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation) occurred
at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D."...
these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each
particular of its progress, when finally "the abomination of
desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood
in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which
now was approaching its total downfall and final destruction
by fire; all this, I say, any one that wishes may see
accurately stated in the history written by Josephus"
(Eusebius; Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch.5).
After quoting sections of Matt. 24:19-21; Lk. 19:41ff
and Lk. 21:20, 23, 24.
Eusebius says this about the destruction of Jerusalem:
"All this occurred" in this manner, in the second year
of the reign of Vespasian (70 A.D.), according to the
predictions of our Christ...On comparing the declarations
of our Saviour which the other parts of Josephus work,
where he describes the whole war, "how can one fail
to acknowledge" and wonder at the truth divine and
extraordinary foreknowledge and prediction of our
Saviour?" (Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3. Ch.7).
Eusebius declares that the Great Commission had been
accomplished by the time Jerusalem was destroyed in
A.D. 70 (cf. Matt. 24:14): "Of who (Christ), indeed
"at this very time, the sound of the holy apostles went
throughout all the earth, and their words to the ends
of the world" (Eusebius Esslesiastical History, Book 3,
Ch. 8; cf. Rom. 10:18; Col. 1:6,23).
Athanasius declares "For now that "He has come" to our
realm, and taken up his abode in one body among His
peers, henceforth the whole conspiracy of the enemy
against mankind in checked, and "the corruption of death
which before was prevailing against them is done away".
For the race of men had gone to ruin had not the Lord
and Saviour of all, the Son of God, come among us to
meet "the end of death" (Athanasius' On the Incarnation
of the Word, Section 9 Verse 4; cf. 1 Cor. 15:21-26).
In reference to the Jews' rejection of Jesus as the Massiah
and their interpertation of the seventy weeks of Daniel 9,
Athanasius has this to say: "Perhaps with regard to the
other "prophecies" they may be able even to find excuses
and to put off what is written to a future time. But what
can they say to this, or can they face it at all? Where not
only is the Christ refrred to, but He that is to be anointed
is declared to be not man simply, but Holy of Holies; and
"Jerusalem is to stand till His coming, and thenceforth,
prophet and vision cease in Israel" (Athanasius; On
the Incarnation of the Word, Section 39 Verse 3; cf.
Dan. 9:24ff).
One doesn't have to look too closely to find some real
gems. We just didn't recognize them as early preterist
statements.. Here are some examples of a few of
the earliest:
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-193-217), in The Stromata,
or Miscellanies, Book 1 page 329, in The Ante- Nicene
Fathers, vol. 2, placed the abomination of desolation of
Daniel's 70th week prophecy, in the time of Nero. He said:
'in the one week; was He Lord. The half of the week Nero
and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho,
and Gaiba, and Vitallus. And Vespasian rose to the supreme
power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the
Holy place".
Earlier that Clement of Alexandria, was Clement of Rome,
who wrote to James and told him what Peter had to the
Jews, thusly: "For we; said I, 'have ascertained beyond
doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices
which you offer the time of sacrifices having now passed
away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time
for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall
be destroyed, and the abomination of desolation shall stand
in the holy place; and then the Gospel shall be preached to
the Gentiles for a testimony against you....; "When I had
thus spoken, the whole multitude of the priests were in
a rage, because I had foretold to them the overthrow of
the temple...;' (Clement, p 94, vol. 8, The Ante-Nicene
Fathers).
Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian (145-220) told of how
the coming of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem
was a fulfillment of predictions that had been made in
Daniel 9:26. He said: Accordingly the times must be
inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the
Christ, and of His passion and of the extermination of
the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel
says, that 'both the holy city and the holy place are
exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that
the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin; And so the times
of the coming Christ, the leader, must be inquired into,
which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them,
shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the
times prescribed, of the consequences which were ever
announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may
believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.
"In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him,
as to show both when and in what time He was to set the
nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that
city had to be exterminated;, (The Ante-Nicene Fathers,
vol. 3, p. 158).
Tertullian was also a preterist in his interpretations of
Zechariah 14:4. He said, "But at night He went out to
the Mount of Olives; For thus had Zechariah pointed out:
'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of
Olives;'" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 417).
Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation
(i.e. the antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation)
occurred at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in
70 A.D "...(Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch5).
As one can easily see, the preterist position was taught
by various writer clear back to the time of the apostles.
They originally understood rightly that the time of
fulfillment was to be imminent until the middle of the
second century when they began to abandon that and
suggest the delay/ postponement ideas. When the
remaining fulfillment's associated with Christ's parousia
did not occur in the physical-literal way they had expected,
they assumed they had not been fulfilled at all. The same
problem persists today, and can be solved by following
correct Biblical interpretation methods. We need to get
back to the study of Biblical Judaism.
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo,s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM
--
Gunny Freedom's Blog: http://libertyline.blogspot.com/
Gunny's Hangout: http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php "Liberty's Price"
Become a Rifleman: http://appleseedinfo.org/
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Early Preterist Statements |
21 Nov 2007 05:53:03 AM |
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On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:16 -0500, Gunny Freedom
<glen42@gmail.com> decided to enlighten us by typing the
following:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC
to debate Preterism. After only 2-3 rounds
of discussion, he abandons any attempt to
debate the theology and the facts
You have this backwards. And the posts that
I wrote, were in response to those of Futurists
"spamming" and attacking me personally.
And where is the "2 or 3 rounds of discussion"?
You attacked me immediately!
Let us note that you immediately responded by
attacking the person while ignoring the content
of the post.
and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
I don't think it was that many, but whatever.
People send a bunch of posts all the time
and you don't say a word, which proves that
your mission is to try to censor content that
you can't handle and that conflicts with your
own personal doctrine.
And yes, I write some and copy & paste some.
What is your problem with that? You never say
a word when Futurists do it. Why is that?
You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to
"declare victory" simply by overwhelming us
with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
The victory is Christ's. Something that YOU don't
believe has happened yet! But HE IS LORD NOW,
whether you wish to believe it or not!
As for you Futurists, I am not worried about
"declaring victory" over you, nor your doctrine,
since you never discuss it intelligently nor
reasonably anyway and just attack me after
one or two posts, when you see that your
doctrine is falling apart!
Of course, some people, like you, don't even
get that far and just immediately attack!
So let us note that now, once again, you have
proven to us that instead of discussing the issue
presented, you thought it best to attack me
personally instead. And yet, here you are,
hypocritically claiming that I'm the one who
refuses to debate an issue. <chuckle>
And btw, falsely labeling something "spam",
just because you don't like what it says,
only further proves your dishonesty and
lack of integrity.
Note especially in the list below, that all
40 messages were posted within the span
of 6 minutes:
I don't believe it was that high, but let us note that
you are going into one thread after another, posting
this response. Doesn't that make YOU guilty of
"spamming us" with 40 posts as well?
Oh no, wait, that's right! Futurists can't be guilty
of their own sins! <chuckle>
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
Theistic evolutionists are out to please men,
rather than God. They claim to believe in a
virgin birth, people rising from the dead, water
turned into wine and yet, they don't believe that
God created the heaven and the earth in six literal
days, thereby making hypocrites of themselves. Why?
Because man says it isn't so and they would rather
try to please men, instead of choosing to believe
God and stand up for Him. Preachers who claim
theistic evolution are the biggest hypocrites of all
and are in the most danger. Why? Read Isaiah 9:16;
Jeremiah 23:1, 50:6. What do YOU stand for?
"...choose this day whom you will serve. ...as for
me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Jos 24:15
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: Early Preterist Statements |
21 Nov 2007 01:16:19 AM |
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On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:16 -0500, Gunny Freedom
wrote:
In article <ojn5k39mmu5cvbvksn80p80c29pk8a14ob@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Early Preterist Statements: The Early Church and
the End of the World
Administration.
What did the earliest of the early Christian writers
actually believe about prophetic events? We can
only answer this question by actually studying what
they wrote. The number one question today is
(How come the Church did not see the view).
There are a number of early writers who made significant
preterist statements. All it takes is going to the writings
of the early church fathers and doing a little research to
learn the truth of the matter. The church fathers back that
far did not write much about Jerusalem, but some of them
did. Think deeply on these things.
Eusebius records the statement that James (brother of Jesus,
writer of the book of James) made just before (c. 63 A.D.)
he was pushed off the temple to the pavement below when
he was being martyred for his faith in Jerusalem: "Why do
ye ask me respecting Jesus the Son of Man? He is now
sitting in the heavens, on the right hand of great Power,
and "is about to come on the clouds of heaven" ( Eusebius'
Esslesiastical History, Book 2, Ch.23; cf James 5:8,9).
Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation (i.e the
antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation) occurred
at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D."...
these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each
particular of its progress, when finally "the abomination of
desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood
in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which
now was approaching its total downfall and final destruction
by fire; all this, I say, any one that wishes may see
accurately stated in the history written by Josephus"
(Eusebius; Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch.5).
After quoting sections of Matt. 24:19-21; Lk. 19:41ff
and Lk. 21:20, 23, 24.
Eusebius says this about the destruction of Jerusalem:
"All this occurred" in this manner, in the second year
of the reign of Vespasian (70 A.D.), according to the
predictions of our Christ...On comparing the declarations
of our Saviour which the other parts of Josephus work,
where he describes the whole war, "how can one fail
to acknowledge" and wonder at the truth divine and
extraordinary foreknowledge and prediction of our
Saviour?" (Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3. Ch.7).
Eusebius declares that the Great Commission had been
accomplished by the time Jerusalem was destroyed in
A.D. 70 (cf. Matt. 24:14): "Of who (Christ), indeed
"at this very time, the sound of the holy apostles went
throughout all the earth, and their words to the ends
of the world" (Eusebius Esslesiastical History, Book 3,
Ch. 8; cf. Rom. 10:18; Col. 1:6,23).
Athanasius declares "For now that "He has come" to our
realm, and taken up his abode in one body among His
peers, henceforth the whole conspiracy of the enemy
against mankind in checked, and "the corruption of death
which before was prevailing against them is done away".
For the race of men had gone to ruin had not the Lord
and Saviour of all, the Son of God, come among us to
meet "the end of death" (Athanasius' On the Incarnation
of the Word, Section 9 Verse 4; cf. 1 Cor. 15:21-26).
In reference to the Jews' rejection of Jesus as the Massiah
and their interpertation of the seventy weeks of Daniel 9,
Athanasius has this to say: "Perhaps with regard to the
other "prophecies" they may be able even to find excuses
and to put off what is written to a future time. But what
can they say to this, or can they face it at all? Where not
only is the Christ refrred to, but He that is to be anointed
is declared to be not man simply, but Holy of Holies; and
"Jerusalem is to stand till His coming, and thenceforth,
prophet and vision cease in Israel" (Athanasius; On
the Incarnation of the Word, Section 39 Verse 3; cf.
Dan. 9:24ff).
One doesn't have to look too closely to find some real
gems. We just didn't recognize them as early preterist
statements.. Here are some examples of a few of
the earliest:
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-193-217), in The Stromata,
or Miscellanies, Book 1 page 329, in The Ante- Nicene
Fathers, vol. 2, placed the abomination of desolation of
Daniel's 70th week prophecy, in the time of Nero. He said:
'in the one week; was He Lord. The half of the week Nero
and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho,
and Gaiba, and Vitallus. And Vespasian rose to the supreme
power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the
Holy place".
Earlier that Clement of Alexandria, was Clement of Rome,
who wrote to James and told him what Peter had to the
Jews, thusly: "For we; said I, 'have ascertained beyond
doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices
which you offer the time of sacrifices having now passed
away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time
for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall
be destroyed, and the abomination of desolation shall stand
in the holy place; and then the Gospel shall be preached to
the Gentiles for a testimony against you....; "When I had
thus spoken, the whole multitude of the priests were in
a rage, because I had foretold to them the overthrow of
the temple...;' (Clement, p 94, vol. 8, The Ante-Nicene
Fathers).
Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian (145-220) told of how
the coming of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem
was a fulfillment of predictions that had been made in
Daniel 9:26. He said: Accordingly the times must be
inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the
Christ, and of His passion and of the extermination of
the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel
says, that 'both the holy city and the holy place are
exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that
the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin; And so the times
of the coming Christ, the leader, must be inquired into,
which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them,
shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the
times prescribed, of the consequences which were ever
announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may
believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.
"In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him,
as to show both when and in what time He was to set the
nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that
city had to be exterminated;, (The Ante-Nicene Fathers,
vol. 3, p. 158).
Tertullian was also a preterist in his interpretations of
Zechariah 14:4. He said, "But at night He went out to
the Mount of Olives; For thus had Zechariah pointed out:
'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of
Olives;'" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 417).
Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation
(i.e. the antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation)
occurred at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in
70 A.D "...(Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch5).
As one can easily see, the preterist position was taught
by various writer clear back to the time of the apostles.
They originally understood rightly that the time of
fulfillment was to be imminent until the middle of the
second century when they began to abandon that and
suggest the delay/ postponement ideas. When the
remaining fulfillment's associated with Christ's parousia
did not occur in the physical-literal way they had expected,
they assumed they had not been fulfilled at all. The same
problem persists today, and can be solved by following
correct Biblical interpretation methods. We need to get
back to the study of Biblical Judaism.
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo,s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM
You say Dave challenged ACC to debate Preterism.
However it seems to me that you were one of those
planning an offensive against Preterism! Are you
feeling overwhelmed by only 40 posts by Dave? I expect
we could find several hundred more easily. But then I
thought you said that Preterism is something that noone
really believes in, and that there is no support for
Preterism. Now you can't handle 40 posts. What sort
of offensive is this! You should have stayed home!
So this is your best response to content, is to spam us
with your lack of content! (Smirk) Please Glen,
psalmsmith, gunny freedom, you must have something
important to run off and do! Why do you waste our time?
Maybe you would prefer to check into some of your other
schemes which you have brought up and then run from
when it came time to really explain and support with
scripture. We can search the archives and find those
threads, if you would like to explain yourself now!
Where are your friends Chuck and Baba? Did they leave
you here all alone? After planning this masterful
offensive of presenting the wisdom of the Church
fathers. I would say you got left holding the bag!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residences!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Early Preterist Statements |
22 Nov 2007 03:04:31 AM |
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"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:16eqe3cgbiutc.1uvpkomcud7c8.dlg@40tude.net...
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:16 -0500, Gunny Freedom
wrote:
In article <ojn5k39mmu5cvbvksn80p80c29pk8a14ob@4ax.com>,
Pastor Knave < SATAN @_gmail.com> wrote:
You say Dave challenged ACC to debate Preterism.
However it seems to me that you were one of those
planning an offensive against Preterism!
Preterism comes from Satan, and it is the Spirit who takes offense.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
2 John 1:7 (ASV)
For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess
not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the
antichrist.
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