| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
20 Nov 2007 07:18:46 AM |
| Object: |
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint |
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint:
by Tyrone Cropper
The Jewish rabbis have taunted Christians throughout
church history saying Jesus can't be their Messiah,
since the Messiah would accomplish redemption,
and judgement, in one generation with no gaps,
delays, parentheses of postponements.
ESCHATOLOGY IN PHILIPPIANS
Very early in chapter 1, of Philippians Paul takes up the
subject of eschatology. "For I am confident of this very
thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect
it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil.1:6). The "day
of Christ" here, is none other than the Parousia, the day
when the Son of Man is revealed (Lk.17:30; 1 Thes.1:7).
Paul says the Philippians (first century saints) would be
perfected through God's work of miraculous confirmation
till the day of Christ (Phil.1:7; Mk.16:20; 1 Cor.1:6,8;
Heb.2:3,4). His admonition continued, "So that you
may approve the things that are excellent, in order to
be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ" (v.11).
Again, the Parousia is meant. Also note that he gives
exhortation to sincerity and warns against offenses
worthy of blame in view of the Parousia. Three, he notes
persecutions by Jews, the adversaries or opponents of
Christians. "In no way alarmed by your opponents - which
is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you,
and that too from God" (v.29). Paul encourages unity and
steadfastness in the midst of persecution knowing that God
would bring judgment upon the Jewish nation and end the
onslaught against the church.
Now let’s listen to Paul as he persuades saints to the
closeness of the Lord’s coming and the fullness of salvation
for which they all wait! And do this, knowing the time,
that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now
our salvation is nearer than when we first believed
(Romans 13:11).
What Jesus emphasized most to his disciples was that
Jerusalem would soon be "compassed with armies" (Lk.21:20)
and desolated before that "generation" (v.32) had passed.
This desolation was "the tribulation of THOSE days" which
Jesus directly linked his coming and the end of the age too.
Most honest students of the Bible already realize that the
New Testament paints an imminent picture of a "soon-coming"
Christ from a first-century viewpoint. All real students
of the NT will admit this. All will admit Paul and the
Apostles surely expected Christ to return in their lifetime.
But a futurist will then add, "but it didn’t happen".
<insert begin>
But how can one say that and then claim that the Bible
is the infallible word of God and that they trust that
the writers of the NT wrote down God's word?
Where did the Apostles give the idea, "We may be wrong
about this" ???
<insert end>
A vital point, totally ignored, today is that the Jewish
prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.
<insert begin>
And even though the NT is entirely built on the
fulfillment of the OT prophecies, the Futurists
add more and more comings of Jesus:
1) Earthly ministry.
2) Rapture.
3) 1,000 year reign.
4) Judgment.
....things that are totally foreign to the OT and yet,
they never consider that maybe they are simply
misunderstanding the NT and that maybe, they are
adding hat is not there. Sure, they will point to
this verse and that one, but again, they are not
understanding the OT and they don't even realize
that these are simply passages that repeat things
that are found in the OT and are not multiple comings.
And it never occurs to them to ask why Jesus never,
not once, mentioned multiple comings. So could
they be misunderstanding the writings of the
Apostles? Not to the Futurists! No way! Can't be! (:
But hey, try to find a "Rapture", for example, in the OT!
Jesus said He came to fulfill. The Futurists says
He came to fulfill and to have the Apostles add a
whole lot more comings and be wrong about when!
<insert end>
To help us determine the time frame of Christ's return with
salvation at the (end of the age) is to ask what did the
Jewish prophets say (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2,
62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6)?
Reader God's Jewish prophets who wrote the Old Testament
had the very same concept as the apostle Paul writers above.
Where does the OT Jewish prophets distinguish between
"a coming in redemption and vengeance " versus "a coming
in judgment" more then 2000 years later from the first?!
This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets.
The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord
with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Say to those
who are fearful hearted, Be strong do not fear! Behold,
your God will come with vengeance, With the recompense
of God He will come and save you (Isaiah 34:6).
Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the
rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time.
They saw one short fulfillment period with two phases to it;
a suffering humiliation phase and a victorious consummation
phase. They expected the consummation of all these things
during one short fulfillment period according to God's
prophets.
Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the
New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they
must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets) clearly
distinguished between two different comings of Christ.
In fact the only place in the NT which even comes close
to teaching a (second advent) is Heb. 9:28 where it says
Christ will (appear a second time). This was using the
Jewish symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when
he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared
back outside the tabernacle (Temple) to announce that
atonement had been accomplished.
Then Aaron lifted his hand toward the people blessed them,
and came down from offering the sin offering, the burnt
offering, and peace offerings. And Moses and Aaron went
into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed
the people, "Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all
the people" (see Leviticus 9:1-24). Notice here that
Israel's sins were not forgiven until Aaron the High Priest
came out of the tabernacle to bless the people verses 22-23.
Every Jewish Christian understood simply that the second
reappearance of Christ our High Priest would be during
the same age..unto salvation. So Christ was offered once
to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him
He will appear a second time apart from sin, for salvation
(see Hebrews 9:27-28;). "For yet a little while, And He who
is coming will come and will not tarry (see Hebrews 10:37).
The writer of Hebrews as seeing in type and shadow of
Leviticus 9 places the return of the High Priest in the same
generation. Offered once to bear the sins of many going
into the tabernacle. He will appear a second time apart
from sin, for salvation coming out of the tabernacle.
These is also no such distinction in Hebrews between
the first coming of Christ to bear the sins of many and
a second coming of Christ with salvation. He will appear
a second time apart from sin, for salvation. The language
used closely connects the coming of the Lord with bearing
the sins of many and salvation!
The Jews never had the concept of a second coming.
And since it was the Jews who first taught the notion of
a Messiah via the Jewish prophets it seems quite reasonable
to respect their inspired witting more then our traditions
or anyone else's uninspired opinion today.
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
Lord, help me get up when I fall. I can fall by myself.
.
|
|
| User: "Gunny Freedom" |
|
| Title: Re: Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint |
20 Nov 2007 04:13:35 PM |
|
|
In article <jln5k3t4ddeg2nl3llo6i6eup700rkvhkm@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint:
by Tyrone Cropper
The Jewish rabbis have taunted Christians throughout
church history saying Jesus can't be their Messiah,
since the Messiah would accomplish redemption,
and judgement, in one generation with no gaps,
delays, parentheses of postponements.
ESCHATOLOGY IN PHILIPPIANS
Very early in chapter 1, of Philippians Paul takes up the
subject of eschatology. "For I am confident of this very
thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect
it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil.1:6). The "day
of Christ" here, is none other than the Parousia, the day
when the Son of Man is revealed (Lk.17:30; 1 Thes.1:7).
Paul says the Philippians (first century saints) would be
perfected through God's work of miraculous confirmation
till the day of Christ (Phil.1:7; Mk.16:20; 1 Cor.1:6,8;
Heb.2:3,4). His admonition continued, "So that you
may approve the things that are excellent, in order to
be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ" (v.11).
Again, the Parousia is meant. Also note that he gives
exhortation to sincerity and warns against offenses
worthy of blame in view of the Parousia. Three, he notes
persecutions by Jews, the adversaries or opponents of
Christians. "In no way alarmed by your opponents - which
is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you,
and that too from God" (v.29). Paul encourages unity and
steadfastness in the midst of persecution knowing that God
would bring judgment upon the Jewish nation and end the
onslaught against the church.
Now let’s listen to Paul as he persuades saints to the
closeness of the Lord’s coming and the fullness of salvation
for which they all wait! And do this, knowing the time,
that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now
our salvation is nearer than when we first believed
(Romans 13:11).
What Jesus emphasized most to his disciples was that
Jerusalem would soon be "compassed with armies" (Lk.21:20)
and desolated before that "generation" (v.32) had passed.
This desolation was "the tribulation of THOSE days" which
Jesus directly linked his coming and the end of the age too.
Most honest students of the Bible already realize that the
New Testament paints an imminent picture of a "soon-coming"
Christ from a first-century viewpoint. All real students
of the NT will admit this. All will admit Paul and the
Apostles surely expected Christ to return in their lifetime.
But a futurist will then add, "but it didn’t happen".
<insert begin>
But how can one say that and then claim that the Bible
is the infallible word of God and that they trust that
the writers of the NT wrote down God's word?
Where did the Apostles give the idea, "We may be wrong
about this" ???
<insert end>
A vital point, totally ignored, today is that the Jewish
prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.
<insert begin>
And even though the NT is entirely built on the
fulfillment of the OT prophecies, the Futurists
add more and more comings of Jesus:
1) Earthly ministry.
2) Rapture.
3) 1,000 year reign.
4) Judgment.
...things that are totally foreign to the OT and yet,
they never consider that maybe they are simply
misunderstanding the NT and that maybe, they are
adding hat is not there. Sure, they will point to
this verse and that one, but again, they are not
understanding the OT and they don't even realize
that these are simply passages that repeat things
that are found in the OT and are not multiple comings.
And it never occurs to them to ask why Jesus never,
not once, mentioned multiple comings. So could
they be misunderstanding the writings of the
Apostles? Not to the Futurists! No way! Can't be! (:
But hey, try to find a "Rapture", for example, in the OT!
Jesus said He came to fulfill. The Futurists says
He came to fulfill and to have the Apostles add a
whole lot more comings and be wrong about when!
<insert end>
To help us determine the time frame of Christ's return with
salvation at the (end of the age) is to ask what did the
Jewish prophets say (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2,
62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6)?
Reader God's Jewish prophets who wrote the Old Testament
had the very same concept as the apostle Paul writers above.
Where does the OT Jewish prophets distinguish between
"a coming in redemption and vengeance " versus "a coming
in judgment" more then 2000 years later from the first?!
This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets.
The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord
with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Say to those
who are fearful hearted, Be strong do not fear! Behold,
your God will come with vengeance, With the recompense
of God He will come and save you (Isaiah 34:6).
Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the
rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time.
They saw one short fulfillment period with two phases to it;
a suffering humiliation phase and a victorious consummation
phase. They expected the consummation of all these things
during one short fulfillment period according to God's
prophets.
Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the
New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they
must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets) clearly
distinguished between two different comings of Christ.
In fact the only place in the NT which even comes close
to teaching a (second advent) is Heb. 9:28 where it says
Christ will (appear a second time). This was using the
Jewish symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when
he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared
back outside the tabernacle (Temple) to announce that
atonement had been accomplished.
Then Aaron lifted his hand toward the people blessed them,
and came down from offering the sin offering, the burnt
offering, and peace offerings. And Moses and Aaron went
into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed
the people, "Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all
the people" (see Leviticus 9:1-24). Notice here that
Israel's sins were not forgiven until Aaron the High Priest
came out of the tabernacle to bless the people verses 22-23.
Every Jewish Christian understood simply that the second
reappearance of Christ our High Priest would be during
the same age..unto salvation. So Christ was offered once
to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him
He will appear a second time apart from sin, for salvation
(see Hebrews 9:27-28;). "For yet a little while, And He who
is coming will come and will not tarry (see Hebrews 10:37).
The writer of Hebrews as seeing in type and shadow of
Leviticus 9 places the return of the High Priest in the same
generation. Offered once to bear the sins of many going
into the tabernacle. He will appear a second time apart
from sin, for salvation coming out of the tabernacle.
These is also no such distinction in Hebrews between
the first coming of Christ to bear the sins of many and
a second coming of Christ with salvation. He will appear
a second time apart from sin, for salvation. The language
used closely connects the coming of the Lord with bearing
the sins of many and salvation!
The Jews never had the concept of a second coming.
And since it was the Jews who first taught the notion of
a Messiah via the Jewish prophets it seems quite reasonable
to respect their inspired witting more then our traditions
or anyone else's uninspired opinion today.
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo’s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM
--
Gunny Freedom's Blog: http://libertyline.blogspot.com/
Gunny's Hangout: http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php "Liberty's Price"
Become a Rifleman: http://appleseedinfo.org/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint |
21 Nov 2007 06:02:56 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:35 -0500, Gunny Freedom
<glen42@gmail.com> decided to enlighten us by typing the
following:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC
to debate Preterism. After only 2-3 rounds
of discussion, he abandons any attempt to
debate the theology and the facts
You have this backwards. And the posts that
I wrote, were in response to those of Futurists
"spamming" and attacking me personally.
And where is the "2 or 3 rounds of discussion"?
You attacked me immediately!
Let us note that you immediately responded by
attacking the person while ignoring the content
of the post.
and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
I don't think it was that many, but whatever.
People send a bunch of posts all the time
and you don't say a word, which proves that
your mission is to try to censor content that
you can't handle and that conflicts with your
own personal doctrine.
And yes, I write some and copy & paste some.
What is your problem with that? You never say
a word when Futurists do it. Why is that?
You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to
"declare victory" simply by overwhelming us
with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
The victory is Christ's. Something that YOU don't
believe has happened yet! But HE IS LORD NOW,
whether you wish to believe it or not!
As for you Futurists, I am not worried about
"declaring victory" over you, nor your doctrine,
since you never discuss it intelligently nor
reasonably anyway and just attack me after
one or two posts, when you see that your
doctrine is falling apart!
Of course, some people, like you, don't even
get that far and just immediately attack!
So let us note that now, once again, you have
proven to us that instead of discussing the issue
presented, you thought it best to attack me
personally instead. And yet, here you are,
hypocritically claiming that I'm the one who
refuses to debate an issue. <chuckle>
And btw, falsely labeling something "spam",
just because you don't like what it says,
only further proves your dishonesty and
lack of integrity.
Note especially in the list below, that all
40 messages were posted within the span
of 6 minutes:
I don't believe it was that high, but let us note that
you are going into one thread after another, posting
this response in each and every one of them.
Doesn't that make YOU guilty of "spamming us"
with 40 posts as well?
Oh no, wait, that's right! Futurists can't be guilty
of their own sins! <chuckle>
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die
so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint |
21 Nov 2007 01:18:17 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:35 -0500, Gunny Freedom
wrote:
In article <jln5k3t4ddeg2nl3llo6i6eup700rkvhkm@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint:
by Tyrone Cropper
The Jewish rabbis have taunted Christians throughout
church history saying Jesus can't be their Messiah,
since the Messiah would accomplish redemption,
and judgement, in one generation with no gaps,
delays, parentheses of postponements.
ESCHATOLOGY IN PHILIPPIANS
Very early in chapter 1, of Philippians Paul takes up the
subject of eschatology. "For I am confident of this very
thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect
it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil.1:6). The "day
of Christ" here, is none other than the Parousia, the day
when the Son of Man is revealed (Lk.17:30; 1 Thes.1:7).
Paul says the Philippians (first century saints) would be
perfected through God's work of miraculous confirmation
till the day of Christ (Phil.1:7; Mk.16:20; 1 Cor.1:6,8;
Heb.2:3,4). His admonition continued, "So that you
may approve the things that are excellent, in order to
be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ" (v.11).
Again, the Parousia is meant. Also note that he gives
exhortation to sincerity and warns against offenses
worthy of blame in view of the Parousia. Three, he notes
persecutions by Jews, the adversaries or opponents of
Christians. "In no way alarmed by your opponents - which
is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you,
and that too from God" (v.29). Paul encourages unity and
steadfastness in the midst of persecution knowing that God
would bring judgment upon the Jewish nation and end the
onslaught against the church.
Now let’s listen to Paul as he persuades saints to the
closeness of the Lord’s coming and the fullness of salvation
for which they all wait! And do this, knowing the time,
that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now
our salvation is nearer than when we first believed
(Romans 13:11).
What Jesus emphasized most to his disciples was that
Jerusalem would soon be "compassed with armies" (Lk.21:20)
and desolated before that "generation" (v.32) had passed.
This desolation was "the tribulation of THOSE days" which
Jesus directly linked his coming and the end of the age too.
Most honest students of the Bible already realize that the
New Testament paints an imminent picture of a "soon-coming"
Christ from a first-century viewpoint. All real students
of the NT will admit this. All will admit Paul and the
Apostles surely expected Christ to return in their lifetime.
But a futurist will then add, "but it didn’t happen".
<insert begin>
But how can one say that and then claim that the Bible
is the infallible word of God and that they trust that
the writers of the NT wrote down God's word?
Where did the Apostles give the idea, "We may be wrong
about this" ???
<insert end>
A vital point, totally ignored, today is that the Jewish
prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.
<insert begin>
And even though the NT is entirely built on the
fulfillment of the OT prophecies, the Futurists
add more and more comings of Jesus:
1) Earthly ministry.
2) Rapture.
3) 1,000 year reign.
4) Judgment.
...things that are totally foreign to the OT and yet,
they never consider that maybe they are simply
misunderstanding the NT and that maybe, they are
adding hat is not there. Sure, they will point to
this verse and that one, but again, they are not
understanding the OT and they don't even realize
that these are simply passages that repeat things
that are found in the OT and are not multiple comings.
And it never occurs to them to ask why Jesus never,
not once, mentioned multiple comings. So could
they be misunderstanding the writings of the
Apostles? Not to the Futurists! No way! Can't be! (:
But hey, try to find a "Rapture", for example, in the OT!
Jesus said He came to fulfill. The Futurists says
He came to fulfill and to have the Apostles add a
whole lot more comings and be wrong about when!
<insert end>
To help us determine the time frame of Christ's return with
salvation at the (end of the age) is to ask what did the
Jewish prophets say (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2,
62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6)?
Reader God's Jewish prophets who wrote the Old Testament
had the very same concept as the apostle Paul writers above.
Where does the OT Jewish prophets distinguish between
"a coming in redemption and vengeance " versus "a coming
in judgment" more then 2000 years later from the first?!
This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets.
The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord
with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Say to those
who are fearful hearted, Be strong do not fear! Behold,
your God will come with vengeance, With the recompense
of God He will come and save you (Isaiah 34:6).
Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the
rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time.
They saw one short fulfillment period with two phases to it;
a suffering humiliation phase and a victorious consummation
phase. They expected the consummation of all these things
during one short fulfillment period according to God's
prophets.
Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the
New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they
must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets) clearly
distinguished between two different comings of Christ.
In fact the only place in the NT which even comes close
to teaching a (second advent) is Heb. 9:28 where it says
Christ will (appear a second time). This was using the
Jewish symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when
he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared
back outside the tabernacle (Temple) to announce that
atonement had been accomplished.
Then Aaron lifted his hand toward the people blessed them,
and came down from offering the sin offering, the burnt
offering, and peace offerings. And Moses and Aaron went
into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed
the people, "Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all
the people" (see Leviticus 9:1-24). Notice here that
Israel's sins were not forgiven until Aaron the High Priest
came out of the tabernacle to bless the people verses 22-23.
Every Jewish Christian understood simply that the second
reappearance of Christ our High Priest would be during
the same age..unto salvation. So Christ was offered once
to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him
He will appear a second time apart from sin, for salvation
(see Hebrews 9:27-28;). "For yet a little while, And He who
is coming will come and will not tarry (see Hebrews 10:37).
The writer of Hebrews as seeing in type and shadow of
Leviticus 9 places the return of the High Priest in the same
generation. Offered once to bear the sins of many going
into the tabernacle. He will appear a second time apart
from sin, for salvation coming out of the tabernacle.
These is also no such distinction in Hebrews between
the first coming of Christ to bear the sins of many and
a second coming of Christ with salvation. He will appear
a second time apart from sin, for salvation. The language
used closely connects the coming of the Lord with bearing
the sins of many and salvation!
The Jews never had the concept of a second coming.
And since it was the Jews who first taught the notion of
a Messiah via the Jewish prophets it seems quite reasonable
to respect their inspired witting more then our traditions
or anyone else's uninspired opinion today.
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo’s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM
You say Dave challenged ACC to debate Preterism.
However it seems to me that you were one of those
planning an offensive against Preterism! Are you
feeling overwhelmed by only 40 posts by Dave? I expect
we could find several hundred more easily. But then I
thought you said that Preterism is something that noone
really believes in, and that there is no support for
Preterism. Now you can't handle 40 posts. What sort
of offensive is this! You should have stayed home!
So this is your best response to content, is to spam us
with your lack of content! (Smirk) Please Glen,
psalmsmith, gunny freedom, you must have something
important to run off and do! Why do you waste our time?
Maybe you would prefer to check into some of your other
schemes which you have brought up and then run from
when it came time to really explain and support with
scripture. We can search the archives and find those
threads, if you would like to explain yourself now!
Where are your friends Chuck and Baba? Did they leave
you here all alone? After planning this masterful
offensive of presenting the wisdom of the Church
fathers. I would say you got left holding the bag!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residences!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
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