KC:

On Oct 29, 11:48 am,

In article <1193575378.832820.91...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> writes:

On Oct 27, 12:43 pm, Andrew <thecr...@macunlimited.net> wrote:

On 2007-10-27 15:50:39 +0100, "Wild Bill" <bilsg...@qwest.net> said:

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <writing...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193494601.028691.206310@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

John 5:24 - Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes
him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has
crossed over from death to life. (TNIV)

Note 1: Jesus said, "Very truly I tell you," which is His way of
saying, "You can count on this to be truth."

Note 2: Jesus says that WHOEVER chooses to HEAR the words of Jesus
and chooses to BELIEVE God sent Him is included in the group He is
talking about.

Note 3: Jesus says this group HAS eternal life (presently).

Note 4: Jesus says this group has ETERNAL life (cannot end)

Note 5: Jesus says, specifically, that they "will not be judged."
That is a promise.

Note 6: Jesus says that this group HAS (presently) crossed over from
death to life.

Give it a rest, Kenny. Many modern scholars have determined that nearly 80%
of the words attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were never spoken by
him.

Shalom,
Bill

That's not entirely true. Many modern scholars apply a very stringent
criterion to determine whether words can be attributed to Christ with
certainty (accepting that 100% certainty is impossible); that is that
sayings can be definitely attributed to Christ if they do not reflect
views present in the culture in which Jesus lived or in the doctrines
of the Church that were formulated later. This criterion is one for
assessing positive attribution. It cannot be used logically in a
negative sense to demonstrate that sayings attributed to Christ were
not said by him.\

And I thought you were honest...my bad. Getting a bunch of degreed
people that never worked in a church (and many never took a Bible
course) to vote on what they accept is not "very stringent criterion."

Really? Degreed scholars who "never took a Bible course"?

Whom do you have in mind, exactly?

-- cary

Well, of course I meant the laymen that made up half the seminar, but
you know that...being that you researched it and all. What am I
saying...of COURSE you know it, and you MUST be right, even if you
don't.

Oh, I'm perfectly willing to be convinced.

Thing is: it's your claim; you provide some evidence to back
it up.

Here's their self-description:

The Fellows of the Westar Institute include scholars with advanced
degrees in biblical studies, religion or related fields and, by special
invitation only, published authors who are recognized authorities in the
field of religion. Since the beginning, more than two hundred Fellows have
participated in the Jesus Seminar and other Westar projects, including the
Paul Seminar, Canon Seminar and the recently begun Acts Seminar. At various
stages of the projects, different Fellows have been involved in the
research and deliberations.

And now it's your turn -- why do you claim that "many" of thsee
"never took a Bible course"?

-- cary

On Oct 28, 9:07 am, "Wild Bill" <bilsg...@qwest.net> wrote:

"Andrew" <thecr...@macunlimited.net> wrote in message

news:2007102814372775249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...

On 2007-10-28 12:42:58 +0000, Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> said:

On Oct 27, 12:43 pm, Andrew <thecr...@macunlimited.net> wrote:

On 2007-10-27 15:50:39 +0100, "Wild Bill" <bilsg...@qwest.net> said:

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <writing...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193494601.028691.206310@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

John 5:24 - Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and
believes
him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has
crossed over from death to life. (TNIV)

Note 1: Jesus said, "Very truly I tell you," which is His way of
saying, "You can count on this to be truth."

Note 2: Jesus says that WHOEVER chooses to HEAR the words of Jesus
and chooses to BELIEVE God sent Him is included in the group He is
talking about.

Note 3: Jesus says this group HAS eternal life (presently).

Note 4: Jesus says this group has ETERNAL life (cannot end)

Note 5: Jesus says, specifically, that they "will not be judged."
That is a promise.

Note 6: Jesus says that this group HAS (presently) crossed over
from
death to life.

Give it a rest, Kenny. Many modern scholars have determined that
nearly
80%
of the words attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were never
spoken
by
him.

Shalom,
Bill

That's not entirely true. Many modern scholars apply a very stringent
criterion to determine whether words can be attributed to Christ with
certainty (accepting that 100% certainty is impossible); that is that
sayings can be definitely attributed to Christ if they do not reflect
views present in the culture in which Jesus lived or in the doctrines
of the Church that were formulated later. This criterion is one for
assessing positive attribution. It cannot be used logically in a
negative sense to demonstrate that sayings attributed to Christ were
not said by him.\

And I thought you were honest...my bad. Getting a bunch of degreed
people that never worked in a church (and many never took a Bible
course) to vote on what they accept is not "very stringent criterion."

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

I said the criterion was stringent - and it is. I made no claims
whatever
for its validity. Personally I think it is too restrictive in that in
real
life people do say things which are conditioned by their culture and
the
things they say do affect what comes after them. Even if one does
accept
this criterion it does not mean - something which I have made clear
here -
that it can be used to say that Jesus did NOT say everything else that
is
attributed to him.

You're getting way above Kenny's head here, Andrew. I doubt that he's
even
read "The Five Gospels", which contain the findings of the 200 scholars
on
the Jesus Seminar. I also doubt that it would make any difference in his
thinking, since he routinely rejects anything not conforming to his
beliefs.
By the way, the book does describe the "very stringent criterion" which
you
referred to - actually it's plural - there are several of them. I suggest
that Kenny pick up copies of "misquoting Jesus", by Bart D. Ehrman, and
"Who
Wrote the New Testament?", The Making of the Christian Myth, by Burton L.
Mack. Those two books could go a long way toward furthering his
education.

Shalom,
Bill

First of all, the Jesus Seminar is just a vote of the liberal, like
minded people they invited to the seminar. It's like the pope picking
the Cardinals. You KNOW the new pope is going to be likeminded. I
don't claim the Pope is unbiased, because I'm not that stupid, even if
you choose that level of brainwashed acceptance.

BTW, I'm guessing you don't have ANY evangelical or fundamentalist
"scholars" you wish me to consult...right?

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

On 2007-10-28 21:27:19 +0000, Anti-Venom <writingken@yahoo.com> said:

On Oct 28, 8:37 am, Andrew <thecr...@macunlimited.net> wrote:

On 2007-10-28 12:42:58 +0000, Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> said:

On Oct 27, 12:43 pm, Andrew <thecr...@macunlimited.net> wrote:

On 2007-10-27 15:50:39 +0100, "Wild Bill" <bilsg...@qwest.net> said:

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <writing...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193494601.028691.206310@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

John 5:24 - Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and
believes
him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has
crossed over from death to life. (TNIV)

Note 1: Jesus said, "Very truly I tell you," which is His way of
saying, "You can count on this to be truth."

Note 2: Jesus says that WHOEVER chooses to HEAR the words of Jesus
and chooses to BELIEVE God sent Him is included in the group He is
talking about.

Note 3: Jesus says this group HAS eternal life (presently).

Note 4: Jesus says this group has ETERNAL life (cannot end)

Note 5: Jesus says, specifically, that they "will not be judged."
That is a promise.

Note 6: Jesus says that this group HAS (presently) crossed over
from
death to life.

Give it a rest, Kenny. Many modern scholars have determined that
nearly 80%
of the words attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were never
spoken by
him.

Shalom,
Bill

That's not entirely true. Many modern scholars apply a very stringent
criterion to determine whether words can be attributed to Christ with
certainty (accepting that 100% certainty is impossible); that is that
sayings can be definitely attributed to Christ if they do not reflect
views present in the culture in which Jesus lived or in the doctrines
of the Church that were formulated later. This criterion is one for
assessing positive attribution. It cannot be used logically in a
negative sense to demonstrate that sayings attributed to Christ were
not said by him.\

And I thought you were honest...my bad. Getting a bunch of degreed
people that never worked in a church (and many never took a Bible
course) to vote on what they accept is not "very stringent criterion."

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

I said the criterion was stringent - and it is. I made no claims
whatever for its validity. Personally I think it is too restrictive in
that in real life people do say things which are conditioned by their
culture and the things they say do affect what comes after them. Even
if one does accept this criterion it does not mean - something which I
have made clear here - that it can be used to say that Jesus did NOT
say everything else that is attributed to him.

By a VOTE of that conditioned populace of which you speak...THAT is
stringent criteria?

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

No - you're having real difficulty understanding what is really very
simple. The CRITERION is stringent in that it sets down very strict rules
to determine whether a saying is accepted. Whether the criterion is valid
or not is another matter entirely.

It's like this. Suppose I'm interviewing for someone to be a garage
mechanic. I could set down a description of the person I'm looking for -
it would have to be a one-armed woman, 55 years and 9 months of age, with
blonde-streaked hair, a mole on her left buttock and "I Love Lucy"
tattooed on her forearm. Those would be stringent criteria because they
would describe the person prtetty precisely. Whether such a person would
actually be an appropriate as a garage mechanic is another matter
entirely.

On 2007-10-28 21:27:19 +0000, Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> said:

On Oct 28, 8:37 am, Andrew <thecr...@macunlimited.net> wrote:

On 2007-10-28 12:42:58 +0000, Anti-Venom <writing...@yahoo.com> said:

On Oct 27, 12:43 pm, Andrew <thecr...@macunlimited.net> wrote:

On 2007-10-27 15:50:39 +0100, "Wild Bill" <bilsg...@qwest.net> said:

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <writing...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193494601.028691.206310@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

John 5:24 - Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes
him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has
crossed over from death to life. (TNIV)

Note 1: Jesus said, "Very truly I tell you," which is His way of
saying, "You can count on this to be truth."

Note 2: Jesus says that WHOEVER chooses to HEAR the words of Jesus
and chooses to BELIEVE God sent Him is included in the group He is
talking about.

Note 3: Jesus says this group HAS eternal life (presently).

Note 4: Jesus says this group has ETERNAL life (cannot end)

Note 5: Jesus says, specifically, that they "will not be judged."
That is a promise.

Note 6: Jesus says that this group HAS (presently) crossed over from
death to life.

Give it a rest, Kenny. Many modern scholars have determined that nearly 80%
of the words attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were never spoken by
him.

Shalom,
Bill

That's not entirely true. Many modern scholars apply a very stringent
criterion to determine whether words can be attributed to Christ with
certainty (accepting that 100% certainty is impossible); that is that
sayings can be definitely attributed to Christ if they do not reflect
views present in the culture in which Jesus lived or in the doctrines
of the Church that were formulated later. This criterion is one for
assessing positive attribution. It cannot be used logically in a
negative sense to demonstrate that sayings attributed to Christ were
not said by him.\

And I thought you were honest...my bad. Getting a bunch of degreed
people that never worked in a church (and many never took a Bible
course) to vote on what they accept is not "very stringent criterion."

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

I said the criterion was stringent - and it is. I made no claims
whatever for its validity. Personally I think it is too restrictive in
that in real life people do say things which are conditioned by their
culture and the things they say do affect what comes after them. Even
if one does accept this criterion it does not mean - something which I
have made clear here - that it can be used to say that Jesus did NOT
say everything else that is attributed to him.

By a VOTE of that conditioned populace of which you speak...THAT is
stringent criteria?

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com

No - you're having real difficulty understanding what is really very
simple. The CRITERION is stringent in that it sets down very strict
rules to determine whether a saying is accepted. Whether the criterion
is valid or not is another matter entirely.

It's like this. Suppose I'm interviewing for someone to be a garage
mechanic. I could set down a description of the person I'm looking for
- it would have to be a one-armed woman, 55 years and 9 months of age,
with blonde-streaked hair, a mole on her left buttock and "I Love Lucy"
tattooed on her forearm. Those would be stringent criteria because they
would describe the person prtetty precisely. Whether such a person
would actually be an appropriate as a garage mechanic is another matter
entirely.