| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
19 May 2005 09:04:05 AM |
| Object: |
ETERNAL SECURITY? |
Some of us came up in the "eternal security" school of understanding -
once saved salvation becomes irrevocable. Other's roots lie in a
philosophy of "eternal insecurity" - if not careful one can easily find
himself excluded from salvific grace. Scripture, interestingly, offers
a foundational approach sometimes missed in both schools of thought.
In his Ephesian epistle Paul unequivocally states that one is saved "by
grace through faith" - grace being the source, faith the appropriating
response (Eph. 2:8,9). In addressing the believer's eternal
inheritance, Peter similarly affirms that we are "kept by faith" (I
Pet. 1:5). In other words, the same faith by which one comes into
relationship with God is the same faith by which that relationship is
maintained. Within this frame of reference one is neither saved nor
kept by works, although works will obviously follow.
This also resolves the difficulty attendant much teaching in which, to
all intents and purposes (unless one is a "five pointer" Calvinist), it
is proposed that while one may exercise personal choice and will in
accepting Christ, he is then deprived of choice and will as to
maintaining that commitment - all of which creates no small dilemma in
various ways.
Paul confirms faith as the underlying point of reference in relation to
one's continued state of grace: "[Christ] has now reconciled you in His
fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and
blameless and beyond reproach - if indeed you continue in the FAITH
(i.e., in Christ) firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the hope of the Gospel" (Col. 1:22,23 NASB).
"Saved through faith"; "kept by faith."
Burl Ratzsch
http://burlratzsch.blogspot.com/
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| User: "Ron Burdette" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
20 May 2005 11:51:33 AM |
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wrote:
Some of us came up in the "eternal security" school of understanding -
once saved salvation becomes irrevocable.
Well....... that is what the Bible teaches Christians; is it not?
Other's roots lie in a philosophy of "eternal insecurity" -
"Eternal Security" is NOT a philosophy...... it is fact, to those
whom it is given to see and know.
1Jo 5:10-15
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he
believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life,
and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the
Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name
of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,
and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask
any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know
that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
if not careful one can easily find himself excluded from salvific
grace.
Really???? How can anyone lose that which they could do
nothing to gain? Can man thwart God? Satan imagined he
could; imagine his end!
Scripture, interestingly, offers a foundational approach
sometimes missed in both schools of thought.
The carnally minded religionists cannot understand the
spiritual things of God.
1Co 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither
can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In his Ephesian epistle Paul unequivocally states that one
is saved "by grace through faith" - grace being the source,
I disagree. Without God's mercy; there would be no source.
Only God is the source. For Grace and His gifts.
faith the appropriating response (Eph. 2:8,9).
I disagree. One cannot 'appropriate' God's Grace or His
Saving Faith. These are gifts from God only.
Act 13:10
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief,
thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness,
wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
In addressing the believer's eternal inheritance, Peter similarly
affirms that we are "kept by faith" (I Pet. 1:5).
Yes, for those whom God has already saved!
In other words,
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER......... believe anyone when they do
err by stating 'in other words', regarding the Word of God!
God's Word needs to interpreting for His Church!
It says what it means, and means what it says. Christians
know this. When Christians study the Word; comparing
scripture with scripture, considering who it was whom the
teachers of the Gospel were addressing, examine the
history of the locale where the teaching was given and
why........... we no 'man' to tell us...... 'in other words'!
1Jo 2:26-27
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them
that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth
in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the
same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and
is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
the same faith by which one comes into relationship with
God is the same faith by which that relationship is
maintained.
True! But Saving Faith is NOT from the teaching or
preaching or anything else regarding man.
If you were a Christian, you would know that your only
responsibility, regarding the Gospel According to Jesus,
is to teach it. That's It!
Within this frame of reference one is neither saved nor
kept by works, although works will obviously follow.
Would you please post your Scripture references which
YOU believe support your statement above?
This also resolves the difficulty attendant much teaching in which, to
all intents and purposes (unless one is a "five pointer" Calvinist), it
is proposed that while one may exercise personal choice and will in
accepting Christ, he is then deprived of choice and will as to
maintaining that commitment - all of which creates no small dilemma in
various ways.
The unsaved man is totally depraved and separated from God.
He only has the free will to sin. How is a totally depraved man
supposed to be saved, apart from the calling from God the
Father, if his salvation is determined by his actions, apart
from God? Without the calling of God, and the unction of
the Holy Spirit, Whom God the Father sends, man would
never know that he is a lost sinner.
Without God, none are saved! Regardless of YOUR preaching!
Paul confirms faith as the underlying point of reference in relation to
one's continued state of grace: "[Christ] has now reconciled you in His
fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and
blameless and beyond reproach - if indeed you continue in the FAITH
(i.e., in Christ) firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the hope of the Gospel" (Col. 1:22,23 NASB).
To whom was the Apostle Paul addressing? The lost or those
already saved?
"Saved through faith"; "kept by faith."
Yes, but ONLY those whom God has already chosen!
Why is it none of you Baptist Preachers EVER teach that salvation
is of God, given to ONLY HE has already chosen?
Do you not teach and preach the entire Gospel???????
I await your reply, preacher.
<>...Ron
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| User: "bibleverse" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
20 May 2005 12:49:34 PM |
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It is written in Romans, You stand by faith. Do not
be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare
the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God:
sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,
provided that you continue in his kindness.
Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
24 May 2005 03:20:28 PM |
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On 20 May 2005 10:49:34 -0700, "bibleverse" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com>
jotted down:
It is written in Romans, You stand by faith. Do not
be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare
the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God:
sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,
provided that you continue in his kindness.
Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
We are not the "natural man" any more, and we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 2:14-16
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of
God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because
they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all
things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has
known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the
mind of Christ.
NKJV
Unless you are greater than God, if you are saved you cannot remove
yourself from God's Hand.
John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works
that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do
not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My
sheep hear My voice , and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I
give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall
anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them
to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of
My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? - |
26 May 2005 03:18:38 PM |
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wrote:
On 20 May 2005 10:49:34 -0700, "bibleverse" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com>
jotted down:
It is written in Romans, You stand by faith. Do not
be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare
the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God:
sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,
provided that you continue in his kindness.
Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
We are not the "natural man" any more,
===>No, you guys sure seem quite UNNATURAL. -- L.
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| User: "bibleverse" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
10 Jun 2005 03:16:52 PM |
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Originally posted by Chris:
We are not the "natural man" any more, and we
have the mind of Christ.
-
The Apostle Paul is writing to spiritual men and
women, those who have the faith (and so the mind)
of Christ, when he says in Romans, You stand by
faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if
God did not spare the natural branches, he will not
spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness
and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell,
but kindness to you, provided that you continue in
his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Originally posted by Chris:
if you are saved you cannot remove
yourself from God's Hand.
-
No scripture says that a believer cannot remove
himself or herself from God's hand. Jesus' statement
in the Gospel of John means that no one else can
remove them from God's hand, for in that same gospel
He makes clear that we must continue to abide in
Him in order to be saved. He says, Remain in me,
and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit
by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can
you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the
vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me
and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me
you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me,
he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire
and burned.
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| User: "JohnH" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
10 Jun 2005 10:01:04 PM |
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bibleverse wrote:
Originally posted by Chris:
We are not the "natural man" any more, and we
have the mind of Christ.
-
The Apostle Paul is writing to spiritual men and
women, those who have the faith (and so the mind)
of Christ, when he says in Romans, You stand by
faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if
God did not spare the natural branches, he will not
spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness
and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell,
but kindness to you, provided that you continue in
his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy" will be forgiven, except
"blasphemy against the Holy Ghost."
Originally posted by Chris:
if you are saved you cannot remove
yourself from God's Hand.
-
No scripture says that a believer cannot remove
himself or herself from God's hand. Jesus' statement
in the Gospel of John means that no one else can
remove them from God's hand, for in that same gospel
He makes clear that we must continue to abide in
Him in order to be saved. He says, Remain in me,
and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit
by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can
you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the
vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me
and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me
you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me,
he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire
and burned.
It's a good thing that it's not just up to the "truly saved ones" to go
it alone anymore, having some Heavenly Help, after all.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who
can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us
all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is
God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea
rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who
also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall
tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or
peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day
long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through
him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels,
nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able
to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a
good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God
your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and keep
you from evil.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless
I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded
that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against
that day.
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will
preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and
ever. Amen.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie,
promised before the world began;
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which
according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively
hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that
fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation
ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is
greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his
Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in
himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he
believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal
life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son
of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name
of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that
ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to
present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding
joy,
Now, if the "truly saved ones" were totally on their own, then that
would be quite another story altogether, but that's not the case since
the Heavens aren't empty, and some "Able Help" is available.
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| User: "bibleverse" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
11 Jun 2005 02:10:18 AM |
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Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Originally quoted by John H:
...It's a good thing that it's not just up to
the "truly saved ones" to go it alone anymore,
having some Heavenly Help, after all...
-
We can be truly saved now but commit blasphemy
against the Holy Ghost down the road and so lose
our salvation. No one has said that the truly
saved ever go it alone, but neither does God's
help ever take away our free will.
I agree with all of the scriptures you quoted.
But none of them deny the possibility of our
blaspheming the Holy Ghost in the future by our
own free will thereby losing our salvation.
Originally quoted by John H:
...some "Able Help" is available...
-
Thank God. Nevertheless, as it is written, we still
must also work out our own salvation with fear and
trembling. We must continue to strive to enter in
by the narrow gate, for few will enter in.
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| User: "JohnH" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
11 Jun 2005 08:56:16 AM |
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bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved (Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling (Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
Originally quoted by John H:
...It's a good thing that it's not just up to
the "truly saved ones" to go it alone anymore,> having some Heavenly Help, after all...
-
We can be truly saved now but commit blasphemy
against the Holy Ghost down the road and so lose
our salvation.
Are you saying that
there is no confidence in Him, Who began a good work in us, and that He
will continue to perform it until the day of...(Phi. 1:6)?
God is not faithful to sanctify us wholly, to establish us, and to keep
us from evil until the day of...(1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Thess. 3:3)?
the LORD is unable to keep those committed to Him, that He won't
deliver us from every evil work, and that He won't preserve us until
the day of...(2 Tim. 1:12, 4:18)?
God lied about His promise of eternal life before the world began
(Titus 1:2)?
our inheritance is not reserved, and that we're not kept by God's power
thru faith unto salvation (1 Peter 1:4-5)?
those believing (on the name of the Son of God) do not have the
confidence of knowing they have eternal life (1 John 5:13)?
He is unable to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24)?
No one has said that the truly
saved ever go it alone, but neither does God's
help ever take away our free will.
Nevertheless, God's role in Mankind's salvation is greater than all of
the sum parts of Man's.
I agree with all of the scriptures you quoted.
Then why would God, on the one hand, give us so many scriptures that
say we should have the confidence in Him, regarding our eternal
salvation, and, on the other hand, also give us scriptures that run
counter to that confidence?
But none of them deny the possibility of our
blaspheming the Holy Ghost in the future by our
own free will thereby losing our salvation.
Is God a god of confusion or not?
Originally quoted by John H:
...some "Able Help" is available...
-
Thank God. Nevertheless, as it is written, we still
must also work out our own salvation with fear and
trembling. We must continue to strive to enter in
by the narrow gate, for few will enter in.
How can Man's part in salvation be greater than God's?
.
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| User: "bibleverse" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
23 Jun 2005 06:40:21 PM |
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JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved (Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling (Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme the
Holy Ghost.
.
Originally quoted by John H:
...It's a good thing that it's not just up to
the "truly saved ones" to go it alone anymore,
having some Heavenly Help, after all...
-
We can be truly saved now but commit blasphemy
against the Holy Ghost down the road and so lose
our salvation.
Are you saying that
there is no confidence in Him, Who began a good work in us, and that He
will continue to perform it until the day of...(Phi. 1:6)?
.
No. We can have confidence in Jesus. Yet at the same time this doesn't
mean we are to have no fear of losing our salvation, for, as it is
written, You stand by faith; be not highminded, but fear, for if God
spared not the natural branches, take heed that he also spare not you.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,
severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness:
otherwise you also shall be cut off.
.
God is not faithful to sanctify us wholly, to establish us, and to keep
us from evil until the day of...(1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Thess. 3:3)?
.
God is faithful, if we remain faithful.
.
the LORD is unable to keep those committed to Him, that He won't
deliver us from every evil work, and that He won't preserve us until
the day of...(2 Tim. 1:12, 4:18)?
.
The Lord is able to keep us from evil, if we remain in Him.
.
God lied about His promise of eternal life before the world began
(Titus 1:2)?
.
God didn't lie. But we can still lose our salvation.
.
our inheritance is not reserved, and that we're not kept by God's power
thru faith unto salvation (1 Peter 1:4-5)?
.
We are kept by faith. But we can depart from that faith.
.
those believing (on the name of the Son of God) do not have the
confidence of knowing they have eternal life (1 John 5:13)?
.
They can know that they have it now, but they can still lose it later.
.
He is unable to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24)?
.
He is able, if we remain in Him.
.
No one has said that the truly
saved ever go it alone, but neither does God's
help ever take away our free will.
Nevertheless, God's role in Mankind's salvation is greater than all of
the sum parts of Man's.
.
True. But this doesn't mean we can't lose our salvation.
.
I agree with all of the scriptures you quoted.
Then why would God, on the one hand, give us so many scriptures that
say we should have the confidence in Him, regarding our eternal
salvation, and, on the other hand, also give us scriptures that run
counter to that confidence?
.
No scripture runs counter to our confidence in Him regarding our
eternal salvation, but neither does any scripture run counter to the
fact that we can lose that salvation by our own free will.
.
But none of them deny the possibility of our
blaspheming the Holy Ghost in the future by our
own free will thereby losing our salvation.
Is God a god of confusion or not?
.
God is not a God of confusion. He nowhere says we can't lose our
salvation.
.
Originally quoted by John H:
...some "Able Help" is available...
-
Thank God. Nevertheless, as it is written, we still
must also work out our own salvation with fear and
trembling. We must continue to strive to enter in
by the narrow gate, for few will enter in.
How can Man's part in salvation be greater than God's?
.
It isn't. But that doesn't mean we can't lose our salvation.
.
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| User: "JohnH" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
26 Jun 2005 12:20:57 AM |
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bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved (Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling (Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
.
Originally quoted by John H:
...It's a good thing that it's not just up to
the "truly saved ones" to go it alone anymore,
having some Heavenly Help, after all...
-
We can be truly saved now but commit blasphemy
against the Holy Ghost down the road and so lose
our salvation.
Are you saying that
there is no confidence in Him, Who began a good work in us, and that He
will continue to perform it until the day of...(Phi. 1:6)?
.
No. We can have confidence in Jesus. Yet at the same time this doesn't
mean we are to have no fear of losing our salvation, for, as it is
written, You stand by faith; be not highminded, but fear, for if God
spared not the natural branches, take heed that he also spare not you.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,
severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness:
otherwise you also shall be cut off.
Does not the very next verse speak of God's ability to graft back in
those cut off again?
.
God is not faithful to sanctify us wholly, to establish us, and to keep
us from evil until the day of...(1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Thess. 3:3)?
.
God is faithful, if we remain faithful.
Apparently, God saw no need to add "if we remain faithful" unto those
scriptures, so why did you? Are there not warnings against doing such
(Deu. 4:2, Rev. 22:18,19)?
.
the LORD is unable to keep those committed to Him, that He won't
deliver us from every evil work, and that He won't preserve us until
the day of...(2 Tim. 1:12, 4:18)?
.
The Lord is able to keep us from evil, if we remain in Him.
Apparently, God saw no need to add "if we remain in Him" unto those
scriptures, so why did you? Are there not warnings against doing such
(Deu. 4:2, Rev. 22:18,19)?
.
God lied about His promise of eternal life before the world began
(Titus 1:2)?
.
God didn't lie. But we can still lose our salvation.
Can you show me even one scripture that clearly states, without it
being open to interpretation, that salvation can be lost?
.
our inheritance is not reserved, and that we're not kept by God's power
thru faith unto salvation (1 Peter 1:4-5)?
.
We are kept by faith. But we can depart from that faith.
Apparently, God saw no need to add "we can depart from that faith" unto
those scriptures, so why did you? Are there not warnings against doing
such (Deu. 4:2, Rev. 22:18,19)?
.
those believing (on the name of the Son of God) do not have the
confidence of knowing they have eternal life (1 John 5:13)?
.
They can know that they have it now, but they can still lose it later.
Apparently, God saw no need to add "but they can still lose it later"
unto that scripture, so why did you? Are there not warnings against
doing such (Deu. 4:2, Rev. 22:18,19)?
.
He is unable to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24)?
.
He is able, if we remain in Him.
Apparently, God saw no need to add "if we remain in Him" unto that
scripture, so why did you? Are there not warnings against doing such
(Deu. 4:2, Rev. 22:18,19)?
.
No one has said that the truly
saved ever go it alone, but neither does God's
help ever take away our free will.
Nevertheless, God's role in Mankind's salvation is greater than all of
the sum parts of Man's.
.
True. But this doesn't mean we can't lose our salvation.
Can you show me even one scripture that clearly states, without it
being open to interpretation, that salvation can be lost?
.
I agree with all of the scriptures you quoted.
Then why would God, on the one hand, give us so many scriptures that
say we should have the confidence in Him, regarding our eternal
salvation, and, on the other hand, also give us scriptures that run
counter to that confidence?
.
No scripture runs counter to our confidence in Him regarding our
eternal salvation, but neither does any scripture run counter to the
fact that we can lose that salvation by our own free will.
Fact? Show me one clear verse that says, "we can lose that salvation
by our own free will."
.
But none of them deny the possibility of our
blaspheming the Holy Ghost in the future by our
own free will thereby losing our salvation.
Is God a god of confusion or not?
.
God is not a God of confusion. He nowhere says we can't lose our
salvation.
Though there are several scriptures (Matt. 19:29; John 3:16,36; John
4:14; John 5:24; John 6:27,40,47; 1 Tim. 1:16) which state that belief
in Jesus Christ leads to everlasting life, or to life everlasting,
there is not one scripture that clearly states, without it being open
to interpretation, that we can lose our salvation. Can you show me the
verse or verses that clearly states salvation can be lost?
.
Originally quoted by John H:
...some "Able Help" is available...
-
Thank God. Nevertheless, as it is written, we still
must also work out our own salvation with fear and
trembling. We must continue to strive to enter in
by the narrow gate, for few will enter in.
How can Man's part in salvation be greater than God's?
.
It isn't. But that doesn't mean we can't lose our salvation.
You are welcome to show me the scripture that clearly states that.
.
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| User: "Scout Lady" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
26 Jun 2005 09:39:55 AM |
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"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119763257.375019.113170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved (Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling (Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
You sure about that John?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
27 Jun 2005 08:38:48 PM |
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Hello "Scout Lady" <scoutlady@nospam.net>,
you posted in alt.religion.christian.pentecostal :
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119763257.375019.113170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved (Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling (Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
You sure about that John?
I don't know about John, but the "other" John said,
John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works
that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do
not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My
sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I
give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall
anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them
to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of
My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV
Now WHO DO YOU KNOW who is greater than God (see verse 29) and would
be able to snatch you out of HIS hand? Surely YOU don't think YOU are
greater than God, do you?
There is no such thing as "temporary eternal life."
in Christ Jesus,
Christian
.
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| User: "Doc: The absent-minded-professor!" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
27 Jun 2005 08:54:08 PM |
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:48 -0600, done went and
wrote as Gospel Truth in these here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
There is no such thing as "temporary eternal life."
in Christ Jesus,
Christian
RIGHT ON.
-------------------------------------------------------
JESUS IS THE ROCK
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called
-------------------------------------------------------
Please visit http://www.romath.com/
.
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| User: "Scout Lady" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
28 Jun 2005 01:43:24 PM |
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"Doc: The absent-minded-professor!" <Doc@Watson.yup> wrote in message
news:odb1c11277l155mcm8r0rh4f62h178qjgn@4ax.com...
On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:48 -0600, done went and
wrote as Gospel Truth in these here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
There is no such thing as "temporary eternal life."
in Christ Jesus,
Christian
RIGHT ON.
Looks like you two are both sucking on the same straw.
.
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| User: "JohnH" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
26 Jun 2005 12:43:46 PM |
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Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119763257.375019.113170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved (Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling (Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
You sure about that John?
You have a scripture or scriptures in mind, right Scout?
.
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| User: "Scout Lady" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
26 Jun 2005 08:15:40 PM |
|
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"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119807826.385067.246210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119763257.375019.113170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between
those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved
(Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling
(Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
You sure about that John?
You have a scripture or scriptures in mind, right Scout?
Of course. How about a fun quiz by Gary Hoge?
Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
"If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all
my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not
die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him."
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and
does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of
the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the
unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he
will die."
Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns
back to his sins, will he still live?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see those verses
1 Corinthians 11:32
"When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will
not be condemned with the world."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: "To prevent us from being ___________ with the world")
2 Timothy 2:12
"If we disown him, he will also disown us."
Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
Revelation 22:14, 19
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the
tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone
takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his
share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this
book."
Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose
his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
1 Timothy 3:6
"[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited
and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the
devil?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
2 Peter 2:20-21
"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in
them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the
first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment
delivered to them."
Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in
the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse
than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, "It
would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness"?
Galatians 5:19-20
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and
debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of
rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies,
and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this
will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the
kingdom of God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
Romans 11:22
"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those
who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness.
Otherwise you also will be cut off."
Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God's kindness, will he be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
1 Corinthians 15:2
"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to
you. Otherwise you have believed in vain."
Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be
said of him that he believed for nothing?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
Hebrews 4:1, 11
"Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be
careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us,
therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by
following their example of disobedience."
Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter
God's rest?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
27 Jun 2005 08:43:59 PM |
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Hello "Scout Lady" <scoutlady@nospam.net>,
you posted in alt.religion.christian.pentecostal :
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119807826.385067.246210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119763257.375019.113170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between
those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved
(Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling
(Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
You sure about that John?
You have a scripture or scriptures in mind, right Scout?
Of course. How about a fun quiz by Gary Hoge?
Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
"If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all
my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not
die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him."
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and
does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of
the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the
unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he
will die."
Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns
back to his sins, will he still live?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see those verses
D. Those verses apply to Israel and were true BEFORE JESUS WAS
CRUCIFIED and resurrected.
1 Corinthians 11:32
"When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will
not be condemned with the world."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
We can be disciplined, but does that mean we will lose our salvation?
If we lose our salvation we WOULD BE condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:27-32
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an
unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and
drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner
eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But
when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be
condemned with the world.
NKJV
It generally helps to read the WHOLE passage to see what Paul was
really writing about, rather than to take one small sentence out of
context like that.>Extra credit:
I'm <snipping> the rest; out of time.
Working 18+ hours per day for the next (and last) 3 weeks.
Gotta git.
Sorry, but there is no such thing as "temporary eternal life." God is
faithful even when we fail Him.
in the Name of Jesus,
Christian
.
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| User: "JohnH" |
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| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
26 Jun 2005 11:10:03 PM |
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Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119807826.385067.246210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119763257.375019.113170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between
those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved
(Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling
(Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
You sure about that John?
You have a scripture or scriptures in mind, right Scout?
Of course. How about a fun quiz by Gary Hoge?
Just be aware [keyword: fun] that you've released me from staying
within the confines of Mr. Hoge's boxes.
Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
"If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all
my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not
die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him."
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and
does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of
the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the
unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he
will die."
Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns
back to his sins, will he still live?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see those verses
Is there not another option, such as a better convenant these days
(Hebrews 8:6-13)? "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness,
and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (verse 12)
and "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now
that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (verse 13).
1 Corinthians 11:32
"When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will
not be condemned with the world."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).
Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: "To prevent us from being ___________ with the world")
He disciplines to prevent, which is not to say that He disciplines to
condemn. Besides, Jesus' own words say, "Verily, verily, I say unto
you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath
everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed
from death unto life" (John 5:24).
2 Timothy 2:12
"If we disown him, he will also disown us."
Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. We have help: "Wherefore he [Jesus] is able also to save them to
the uttermost that come unto God by him [Jesus], seeing he [Jesus] ever
liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25). Since the
Scripture says that Jesus is able to save us to the uttermost, then how
can that mean anything less?
Revelation 22:14, 19
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the
tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone
takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his
share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this
book."
Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose
his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. We, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation
ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:5), have the help of
God. If God is powerful enough to first draw us to Him, is He not
powerful enough to then keep us?
1 Timothy 3:6
"[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited
and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the
devil?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not
come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John
5:24).
2 Peter 2:20-21
"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in
them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the
first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment
delivered to them."
Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in
the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse
than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, "It
would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness"?
But Peter had also said that we, "Who are kept by the power of God
through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1
Peter 1:5), have the assuring help of God. In other words, we are not
alone in this. Besides this, we have Jesus making intercession for us,
and He is able to save us to the uttermost.
Galatians 5:19-20
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and
debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of
rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies,
and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this
will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the
kingdom of God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
Someone, who is truly born-again (and I drew this distinction, above),
cannot sin like that, as it is written: "Whosoever is born of God doth
not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9).
Romans 11:22
"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those
who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness.
Otherwise you also will be cut off."
Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God's kindness, will he be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No, because Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15, and 1 John 3:9 would preclude
this from ever happening.
1 Corinthians 15:2
"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to
you. Otherwise you have believed in vain."
Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be
said of him that he believed for nothing?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No, because Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15, and 1 John 3:9 would preclude
this from ever happening.
Hebrews 4:1, 11
"Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be
careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us,
therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by
following their example of disobedience."
Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter
God's rest?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
According to Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15 and 1 John 3:9, this won't ever
be an issue.
Scout, I know that I have not likely dissuaded you from your beliefs,
but neither has this quiz dissuaded me from mine. I do not see
scriptures that clearly state that believers will lose their salvation.
There are warnings, sure, but God has built-in some pretty hefty
"safety measures" as well.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Scout Lady" |
|
| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
27 Jun 2005 12:41:11 AM |
|
|
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119845402.962108.146310@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119807826.385067.246210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119763257.375019.113170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between
those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved
(Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first
place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling
(Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that
God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme
the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
You sure about that John?
You have a scripture or scriptures in mind, right Scout?
Of course. How about a fun quiz by Gary Hoge?
Just be aware [keyword: fun] that you've released me from staying
within the confines of Mr. Hoge's boxes.
Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
"If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps
all
my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will
not
die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against
him."
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and
does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None
of
the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the
unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed,
he
will die."
Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns
back to his sins, will he still live?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see those verses
Is there not another option, such as a better convenant these days
(Hebrews 8:6-13)? "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness,
and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (verse 12)
and "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now
that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (verse 13).
1 Corinthians 11:32
"When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will
not be condemned with the world."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).
Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: "To prevent us from being ___________ with the world")
He disciplines to prevent, which is not to say that He disciplines to
condemn. Besides, Jesus' own words say, "Verily, verily, I say unto
you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath
everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed
from death unto life" (John 5:24).
2 Timothy 2:12
"If we disown him, he will also disown us."
Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. We have help: "Wherefore he [Jesus] is able also to save them to
the uttermost that come unto God by him [Jesus], seeing he [Jesus] ever
liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25). Since the
Scripture says that Jesus is able to save us to the uttermost, then how
can that mean anything less?
Revelation 22:14, 19
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to
the
tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone
takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him
his
share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in
this
book."
Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose
his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. We, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation
ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:5), have the help of
God. If God is powerful enough to first draw us to Him, is He not
powerful enough to then keep us?
1 Timothy 3:6
"[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited
and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by
the
devil?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not
come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John
5:24).
2 Peter 2:20-21
"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in
them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the
first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy
commandment
delivered to them."
Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in
the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as
worse
than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man,
"It
would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness"?
But Peter had also said that we, "Who are kept by the power of God
through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1
Peter 1:5), have the assuring help of God. In other words, we are not
alone in this. Besides this, we have Jesus making intercession for us,
and He is able to save us to the uttermost.
Galatians 5:19-20
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity
and
debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of
rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness,
orgies,
and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this
will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the
kingdom of God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
Someone, who is truly born-again (and I drew this distinction, above),
cannot sin like that, as it is written: "Whosoever is born of God doth
not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9).
Romans 11:22
"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those
who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his
kindness.
Otherwise you also will be cut off."
Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God's kindness, will he be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No, because Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15, and 1 John 3:9 would preclude
this from ever happening.
1 Corinthians 15:2
"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached
to
you. Otherwise you have believed in vain."
Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it
be
said of him that he believed for nothing?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No, because Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15, and 1 John 3:9 would preclude
this from ever happening.
Hebrews 4:1, 11
"Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us
be
careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let
us,
therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall
by
following their example of disobedience."
Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he
enter
God's rest?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
According to Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15 and 1 John 3:9, this won't ever
be an issue.
Scout, I know that I have not likely dissuaded you from your beliefs,
but neither has this quiz dissuaded me from mine. I do not see
scriptures that clearly state that believers will lose their salvation.
There are warnings, sure, but God has built-in some pretty hefty
"safety measures" as well.
Good try John but I saved the best for last!
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no
longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a
flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects
the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or
three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the
one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the
covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:26-29
Calvin taught once shaved always shaved, neither Paul or any of the other
Apostles ever did. If you want to believe that there is nothing that will
take the salvation of the elect away I am okay with that but neither you or
I know who the elect are. Scripture tells us that we must endure to the end,
to work out our salvation in fear and trembling so it is rather silly of
someone to be claiming victory in a race that isn't even over yet. You could
pass out before you cross the finish line.........one never knows do one?
.
|
|
|
| User: "JohnH" |
|
| Title: Re: ETERNAL SECURITY? |
27 Jun 2005 10:32:48 AM |
|
|
Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119845402.962108.146310@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119807826.385067.246210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Scout Lady wrote:
"JohnH" <johnhennekes@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119763257.375019.113170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
bibleverse wrote:
JohnH wrote:
bibleverse wrote:
Originally quoted by John H:
...Jesus said, "All manner of sins and blasphemy"
will be forgiven, except "blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost." ...
-
Amen. Then you at the very least must agree that
there is no eternal security for a believer who
blasphemes against the Holy Ghost.
Let me first draw a distinction. There is a difference between
those
who think that they are saved and those who are actually saved
(Matt.
7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). God took away any possibility that a
"truly-saved one" can blasphemy the Holy Ghost in the first
place,
having given them both Christ's and the Holy Spirit's indwelling
(Rom.
8:11; Eph. 3:17).
.
Neither the scriptures you cite nor any other scripture says that
God
took away any possibility that a "truly-saved one" can blaspheme
the
Holy Ghost.
Neither are there scriptures that say one can lose their salvation,
either.
You sure about that John?
You have a scripture or scriptures in mind, right Scout?
Of course. How about a fun quiz by Gary Hoge?
Just be aware [keyword: fun] that you've released me from staying
within the confines of Mr. Hoge's boxes.
Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
"If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps
all
my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will
not
die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against
him."
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and
does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None
of
the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the
unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed,
he
will die."
Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns
back to his sins, will he still live?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see those verses
Is there not another option, such as a better convenant these days
(Hebrews 8:6-13)? "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness,
and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (verse 12)
and "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now
that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (verse 13).
1 Corinthians 11:32
"When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will
not be condemned with the world."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).
Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: "To prevent us from being ___________ with the world")
He disciplines to prevent, which is not to say that He disciplines to
condemn. Besides, Jesus' own words say, "Verily, verily, I say unto
you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath
everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed
from death unto life" (John 5:24).
2 Timothy 2:12
"If we disown him, he will also disown us."
Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. We have help: "Wherefore he [Jesus] is able also to save them to
the uttermost that come unto God by him [Jesus], seeing he [Jesus] ever
liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25). Since the
Scripture says that Jesus is able to save us to the uttermost, then how
can that mean anything less?
Revelation 22:14, 19
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to
the
tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone
takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him
his
share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in
this
book."
Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose
his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. We, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation
ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:5), have the help of
God. If God is powerful enough to first draw us to Him, is He not
powerful enough to then keep us?
1 Timothy 3:6
"[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited
and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil."
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by
the
devil?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not
come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John
5:24).
2 Peter 2:20-21
"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in
them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the
first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy
commandment
delivered to them."
Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in
the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as
worse
than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man,
"It
would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness"?
But Peter had also said that we, "Who are kept by the power of God
through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1
Peter 1:5), have the assuring help of God. In other words, we are not
alone in this. Besides this, we have Jesus making intercession for us,
and He is able to save us to the uttermost.
Galatians 5:19-20
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity
and
debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of
rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness,
orgies,
and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this
will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the
kingdom of God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
Someone, who is truly born-again (and I drew this distinction, above),
cannot sin like that, as it is written: "Whosoever is born of God doth
not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9).
Romans 11:22
"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those
who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his
kindness.
Otherwise you also will be cut off."
Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God's kindness, will he be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No, because Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15, and 1 John 3:9 would preclude
this from ever happening.
1 Corinthians 15:2
"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached
to
you. Otherwise you have believed in vain."
Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it
be
said of him that he believed for nothing?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
No, because Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15, and 1 John 3:9 would preclude
this from ever happening.
Hebrews 4:1, 11
"Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us
be
careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let
us,
therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall
by
following their example of disobedience."
Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he
enter
God's rest?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm going to pretend I didn't see that verse
According to Hebrews 7:25, 1 Peter 3:15 and 1 John 3:9, this won't ever
be an issue.
Scout, I know that I have not likely dissuaded you from your beliefs,
but neither has this quiz dissuaded me from mine. I do not see
scriptures that clearly state that believers will lose their salvation.
There are warnings, sure, but God has built-in some pretty hefty
"safety measures" as well.
Good try John but I saved the best for last!
Now, Scout, did you really think that I had already put all of my eggs
into the baskets, above?
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no
longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a
flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects
the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or
three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the
one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the
covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:26-29
Hebrews is a unique book that only appears to take two stands on
eternal salvation, but since God is not a god of confusion, then it
would follow that one of these stances is not as it would appear. For
example, in your above submittals, it would appear that the author of
Hebrews is clearly in the Camp of Lost Salvation [or is he really?].
Let us back up some verses from your above submittals:
"Then said he [Jesus Christ], Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He
[God] taketh away the first [old covenant], that he [God] may establish
the second [new covenant]. By the which will [God's] we are sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews
10:9-10).
"For by one offering he [Jesus Christ] hath perfected for ever them
that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14).
Now, according to Hebrews 10:9-10, 14, in which camp is the author of
Hebrews in?
A. Camp of Lost Salvation
B. Camp of Eternal Salvation
C. I'll pretend that I don't see those verses
[This done to draw out a smile, not to mock.]
Since it has already been canonically decided that the author of
Hebrews was Spirit-inspired, then it would follow that he or she would,
at least, have been consistent enough to clearly indicate in which
"eternal salvation" camp that he or she is "rightly divided" into.
Frankly, I think that we need to look at the entire chapter of Hebrews
10, as well as the significance of that entire book for the purpose of
why that book was written, and to whom.
Did the Messianic Jews of that time believe that they could simply go
right back to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob after having tasted
the blood of the New Covenant, and then rejecting Jesus as the Son of
God? Is it possible that these Messianic Jews needed a "wake-up" call,
just in case they could have been so deceived into thinking that they
could go right back to their "old covenant" ways, and still be accepted
by God, after rejecting His Son?
Calvin taught once shaved always shaved, neither Paul or any of the other
Apostles ever did. If you want to believe that there is nothing that will
take the salvation of the elect away I am okay with that but neither you or
I know who the elect are. Scripture tells us that we must endure to the end,
to work out our salvation in fear and trembling so it is rather silly of
someone to be claiming victory in a race that isn't even over yet. You could
pass out before you cross the finish line.........one never knows do one?
Scout, let us leave Calvin's, Paul's and the Apostle's personal
grooming habits [since it always leads to a digressing discussion] out
of this, shall we?
Since you brought up Paul, he did teach that we are more than simply
conquerors, and as such we have already been declared victorious in
that race. And to the contrary, Paul also taught OSAS, but only in
different terms, and not in those easily recognized as such:
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or
distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are
acco | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
