| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Ghamph" |
| Date: |
30 Jan 2008 01:46:36 PM |
| Object: |
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
JESUS WAS INSANE
The gospels indeed have failed to convince us that Jesus was sane.
Friday, 11 January 2008
......
Jesus going forward to the cross when there were easier deaths shows that he
was mad and suicidal and extremely masochistic. The Christians say he was
not mad for he had to die for the sins of the world. Again this is assuming
he was telling the truth and was right without evidence because if anybody
else made the same claim as Jesus they would dismiss them as insane......
full story:
http://www.religionislies.com/deranged.html
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 07:18:21 PM |
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"Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:13q1ksu2jh6u7d5@corp.supernews.com...
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
JESUS WAS INSANE
The gospels indeed have failed to convince us that Jesus was sane.
Friday, 11 January 2008
.....
Jesus going forward to the cross when there were easier deaths shows that
he
was mad and suicidal and extremely masochistic. The Christians say he was
not mad for he had to die for the sins of the world. Again this is
assuming
he was telling the truth and was right without evidence because if anybody
else made the same claim as Jesus they would dismiss them as insane......
full story:
http://www.religionislies.com/deranged.html
No, Jesus was not insane.
The story is insane. Just consider this. God created this huge Universe and
everything in it.
He created Adam form dirt and Eve from Adams rib. He certainly could have
created Jesus
in some simple manner. Why create him as a baby and then have him live an
uneventful life
for 30 Years?
Then for one, two or three years he preached his gospels to a miniscule part
of the worlds population.
Then instead of just rising back to his heaven he arranged for a brutal
nailing on a cross to pay for
the sins he himself created.
And we haven't heard from him or seen him since!
The Santa Claus tale is a better one!
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 09:23:51 PM |
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On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:18:21 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
"Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:13q1ksu2jh6u7d5@corp.supernews.com...
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
JESUS WAS INSANE
The gospels indeed have failed to convince us that Jesus was sane.
Friday, 11 January 2008
.....
Jesus going forward to the cross when there were easier deaths shows that
he
was mad and suicidal and extremely masochistic. The Christians say he was
not mad for he had to die for the sins of the world. Again this is
assuming
he was telling the truth and was right without evidence because if anybody
else made the same claim as Jesus they would dismiss them as insane......
full story:
http://www.religionislies.com/deranged.html
No, Jesus was not
There. I made it more succinct for you
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| User: "SwordofZ" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 07:12:28 PM |
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"Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:13q1ksu2jh6u7d5@corp.supernews.com...
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
JESUS WAS INSANE
SoZ:
"personal" conviction.
The gospels indeed have failed to convince us that Jesus was sane.
SoZ:
hatred and animosity is the fodder feeding insane view points.
Friday, 11 January 2008
.....
Jesus going forward to the cross when there were easier deaths shows that
he
was mad and suicidal and extremely masochistic.
SoZ:
What were the easier deaths?
The Christians say he was
not mad for he had to die for the sins of the world.
Again this is assuming
he was telling the truth and was right without evidence because if anybody
else made the same claim as Jesus they would dismiss them as insane......
full story:
http://www.religionislies.com/deranged.html
SoZ:
do you and your fellow "us's" understand how "insane" and "deranged" it is
to rant and rave about an imaginary individual who never existed. you are a
good soldier in the army of insanity. your rank is what?
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 05:14:54 PM |
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Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> said :
I actually think their were several different iterent prechers at the
time and probably what we got is a mish mosh of some events attributed
to several of them, plus some other pagan myths,that ended up coalesed
around one figure as is common with verbal hero stories.
Makes good sense, that.
.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 04:58:30 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
.
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| User: "Karl Johanson" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
02 Feb 2008 02:41:43 PM |
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"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
Yes, we all know in our hearts that Batman created the universe. Some
cling to stories of Jesus, because they similarities in the fictional
accounts of the divinity of Jesus to the truth of Batman's divinity.
Karl Johanson
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| User: "Ghamph" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 05:27:50 PM |
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"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l402q3tmekt2dvfpig54a5srga5i51h7fl@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
You got the first part right.
I'm not desperate but you seem to be.
The truth in my heart (and in my whole body) is that you have no (absolutely
no) real evidence that a God of any kind (or a son of a God) ever existed at
any time, in all eternity.
The only proof that you offer is to use (a persons willingness to debate) as
evidence that God exists.
Well, I know that is the best you can do, in the proof department and that
must be very frustrating for a religious dunce like you.
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| User: "Wild Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 05:23:01 PM |
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"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l402q3tmekt2dvfpig54a5srga5i51h7fl@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
Take the log-beam out of your own eye first, Gabriel. The Jesus depicted in
the N.T. bears little resemblance to the historical Jesus reconstructed by
hundreds of biblical scholars. Why can't Christians get it through their
heads that Jesus didn't die for any one's sins; he was put to death for
being a threat to Roman rule and the Jewish religious leaders - a trouble
maker, you might say. He was probably buried in a common criminal's mass
grave and that's the last anyone saw of him. Some of his followers came back
to Jerusalem some time later after having an epiphany and the legend of the
god-man, (mostly borrowed from pagan traditions), was born. The legend was
shaped and re-shaped, refined and polished and re-told countless times in
oral traditions-you know how fish tales keep making the fish bigger! Finally
it began to be written down about 30 to 40 years after Jesus' death, with
still more polishing and refining of the tale from at least 50 different
*gospels* until the original Jesus got totally buried in the myth-making
process.
Extrabiblical evidence for the *Biblical* Jesus portrayed in the 4 gospels
and Acts is practically non-existant. Do get an education, will ya Gabe?
Shalom,
Bill
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| User: "SwordofZ" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 07:25:54 PM |
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"Wild Bill" <bilsgrdn@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:47a106da$0$10311$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l402q3tmekt2dvfpig54a5srga5i51h7fl@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
Take the log-beam out of your own eye first, Gabriel. The Jesus depicted
in the N.T. bears little resemblance to the historical Jesus reconstructed
by hundreds of biblical scholars.
SoZ:
agree.
Why can't Christians get it through their
heads that Jesus didn't die for any one's sins; he was put to death for
being a threat to Roman rule and the Jewish religious leaders - a trouble
maker, you might say.
SoZ:
take the log-beam out of your eye as well.
He was probably buried in a common criminal's mass
grave and that's the last anyone saw of him.
SoZ:
"probably" ... your not sure?
Some of his followers came back
to Jerusalem some time later after having an epiphany and the legend of
the god-man, (mostly borrowed from pagan traditions), was born.
SoZ:
sounds good. were you there?
The legend was
shaped and re-shaped, refined and polished and re-told countless times in
oral traditions-you know how fish tales keep making the fish bigger!
SoZ:
you know how to tell'em.
Finally
it began to be written down about 30 to 40 years after Jesus' death, with
still more polishing and refining of the tale from at least 50 different
*gospels* until the original Jesus got totally buried in the myth-making
process.
Extrabiblical evidence for the *Biblical* Jesus portrayed in the 4 gospels
and Acts is practically non-existant. Do get an education, will ya Gabe?
SoZ:
as the tale grows and grows like pinocchio's nose.
Shalom,
Bill
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| User: "Andrew" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 05:46:34 PM |
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On 2008-01-30 23:23:01 +0000, "Wild Bill" <bilsgrdn@qwest.net> said:
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l402q3tmekt2dvfpig54a5srga5i51h7fl@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
Take the log-beam out of your own eye first, Gabriel. The Jesus depicted in
the N.T. bears little resemblance to the historical Jesus reconstructed by
hundreds of biblical scholars.
I have to disagree here. There is absolutely NO consensus among
Biblical scholars regarding a historical Jesus other than the one
depicted in the Gospels.
Why can't Christians get it through their
heads that Jesus didn't die for any one's sins; he was put to death for
being a threat to Roman rule and the Jewish religious leaders - a trouble
maker, you might say.
The latter here does not negate the former. Both can be (and,
Christians believe, are) true.
He was probably buried in a common criminal's mass
grave and that's the last anyone saw of him.
There is no evidence for that - you know that, don't you?
Some of his followers came back
to Jerusalem some time later after having an epiphany and the legend of the
god-man, (mostly borrowed from pagan traditions), was born. The legend was
shaped and re-shaped, refined and polished and re-told countless times in
oral traditions-you know how fish tales keep making the fish bigger! Finally
it began to be written down about 30 to 40 years after Jesus' death, with
still more polishing and refining of the tale from at least 50 different
*gospels* until the original Jesus got totally buried in the myth-making
process.
Extrabiblical evidence for the *Biblical* Jesus portrayed in the 4 gospels
and Acts is practically non-existant. Do get an education, will ya Gabe?
Shalom,
Bill
.
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| User: "Wild Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 07:31:22 PM |
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"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2008013023463450073-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
On 2008-01-30 23:23:01 +0000, "Wild Bill" <bilsgrdn@qwest.net> said:
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l402q3tmekt2dvfpig54a5srga5i51h7fl@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
Take the log-beam out of your own eye first, Gabriel. The Jesus depicted
in
the N.T. bears little resemblance to the historical Jesus reconstructed
by
hundreds of biblical scholars.
I have to disagree here. There is absolutely NO consensus among Biblical
scholars regarding a historical Jesus other than the one depicted in the
Gospels.
Are you familiar with the Jesus Seminar, in which over 200 scholars/fellows
examined the supposed sayings of Jesus in the N.T. and found that less than
20% of the words attributed to him were actually spoken by him? Bart D.
Ehrman, Burton L. Mack, Robert W. Funk and Thomas Sheehan, just to name a
few scholars to have identified a historical Jesus different than the gospel
depictions. The gospel Jesus is a folk-hero, legend and myth.
Why can't Christians get it through their
heads that Jesus didn't die for any one's sins; he was put to death for
being a threat to Roman rule and the Jewish religious leaders - a trouble
maker, you might say.
The latter here does not negate the former. Both can be (and, Christians
believe, are) true.
He was probably buried in a common criminal's mass
grave and that's the last anyone saw of him.
There is no evidence for that - you know that, don't you?
That's why I said "probably".
Some of his followers came back
to Jerusalem some time later after having an epiphany and the legend of
the
god-man, (mostly borrowed from pagan traditions), was born. The legend
was
shaped and re-shaped, refined and polished and re-told countless times in
oral traditions-you know how fish tales keep making the fish bigger!
Finally
it began to be written down about 30 to 40 years after Jesus' death, with
still more polishing and refining of the tale from at least 50 different
*gospels* until the original Jesus got totally buried in the myth-making
process.
Extrabiblical evidence for the *Biblical* Jesus portrayed in the 4
gospels
and Acts is practically non-existant. Do get an education, will ya Gabe?
Shalom,
Bill
.
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| User: "Andrew" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
31 Jan 2008 12:25:16 PM |
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On 2008-01-31 01:31:22 +0000, "Wild Bill" <bilsgrdn@qwest.net> said:
"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2008013023463450073-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
On 2008-01-30 23:23:01 +0000, "Wild Bill" <bilsgrdn@qwest.net> said:
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l402q3tmekt2dvfpig54a5srga5i51h7fl@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
Take the log-beam out of your own eye first, Gabriel. The Jesus depicted
in
the N.T. bears little resemblance to the historical Jesus reconstructed
by
hundreds of biblical scholars.
I have to disagree here. There is absolutely NO consensus among Biblical
scholars regarding a historical Jesus other than the one depicted in the
Gospels.
Are you familiar with the Jesus Seminar, in which over 200 scholars/fellows
examined the supposed sayings of Jesus in the N.T. and found that less than
20% of the words attributed to him were actually spoken by him? Bart D.
Ehrman, Burton L. Mack, Robert W. Funk and Thomas Sheehan, just to name a
few scholars to have identified a historical Jesus different than the gospel
depictions. The gospel Jesus is a folk-hero, legend and myth.
I'm entirely familiar with the Jesus Seminar, and their conclusions are
not quite as you cite and they are commonly mis-stated. The Jesus
Seminar set a very stringent criterion for the acceptance of a saying
as the ipsissima verba of Christ - that if a saying could be said to
have counterparts in either the culture surrounding Christ, or in the
early church, then it was possible that he was not the originator of
the saying. It does not mean that he did not say them. What this
criterion means in practice is that about 20% of what Christ says
should be attributed to him beyond reasonable doubt. It cannot say
anything about the other 80% - he may have said all of it or none as
far as the Jesus Seminar goes.
Why can't Christians get it through their
heads that Jesus didn't die for any one's sins; he was put to death for
being a threat to Roman rule and the Jewish religious leaders - a trouble
maker, you might say.
The latter here does not negate the former. Both can be (and, Christians
believe, are) true.
He was probably buried in a common criminal's mass
grave and that's the last anyone saw of him.
There is no evidence for that - you know that, don't you?
That's why I said "probably".
Some of his followers came back
to Jerusalem some time later after having an epiphany and the legend of
the
god-man, (mostly borrowed from pagan traditions), was born. The legend
was
shaped and re-shaped, refined and polished and re-told countless times in
oral traditions-you know how fish tales keep making the fish bigger!
Finally
it began to be written down about 30 to 40 years after Jesus' death, with
still more polishing and refining of the tale from at least 50 different
*gospels* until the original Jesus got totally buried in the myth-making
process.
Extrabiblical evidence for the *Biblical* Jesus portrayed in the 4
gospels
and Acts is practically non-existant. Do get an education, will ya Gabe?
Shalom,
Bill
.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 08:51:49 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:31:22 -0800, "Wild Bill"
<bilsgrdn@qwest.net> wrote:
"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2008013023463450073-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
On 2008-01-30 23:23:01 +0000, "Wild Bill" <bilsgrdn@qwest.net> said:
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l402q3tmekt2dvfpig54a5srga5i51h7fl@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
Take the log-beam out of your own eye first, Gabriel. The Jesus depicted
in
the N.T. bears little resemblance to the historical Jesus reconstructed
by
hundreds of biblical scholars.
I have to disagree here. There is absolutely NO consensus among Biblical
scholars regarding a historical Jesus other than the one depicted in the
Gospels.
Are you familiar with the Jesus Seminar, in which over 200 scholars/fellows
examined the supposed sayings of Jesus in the N.T. and found that less than
20% of the words attributed to him were actually spoken by him?
How do they supposedly -know- this?
Bart D.
Ehrman, Burton L. Mack, Robert W. Funk and Thomas Sheehan, just to name a
few scholars to have identified a historical Jesus different than the gospel
depictions. The gospel Jesus is a folk-hero, legend and myth.
Why can't Christians get it through their
heads that Jesus didn't die for any one's sins; he was put to death for
being a threat to Roman rule and the Jewish religious leaders - a trouble
maker, you might say.
The latter here does not negate the former. Both can be (and, Christians
believe, are) true.
He was probably buried in a common criminal's mass
grave and that's the last anyone saw of him.
There is no evidence for that - you know that, don't you?
That's why I said "probably".
Some of his followers came back
to Jerusalem some time later after having an epiphany and the legend of
the
god-man, (mostly borrowed from pagan traditions), was born. The legend
was
shaped and re-shaped, refined and polished and re-told countless times in
oral traditions-you know how fish tales keep making the fish bigger!
Finally
it began to be written down about 30 to 40 years after Jesus' death, with
still more polishing and refining of the tale from at least 50 different
*gospels* until the original Jesus got totally buried in the myth-making
process.
Extrabiblical evidence for the *Biblical* Jesus portrayed in the 4
gospels
and Acts is practically non-existant. Do get an education, will ya Gabe?
Shalom,
Bill
.
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| User: "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 05:11:18 PM |
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"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l402q3tmekt2dvfpig54a5srga5i51h7fl@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:46:36 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Well by that statement you just showed that you know Christ
existed. That's a start.
Now if you can notice how you spend all your free time in
God-worshiping newsgroups almost every single day trying
desperately to reconcile the truth you know to be true in your
heart, your eyes might possibly be opened and you might finally
see clearly.
oh, so you have some OBJECTABLE, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE OF THE HORSESHIT
CHRISTIAN GOD DO YOU?
.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 05:16:48 PM |
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"Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Evidence that Jesus existed would probably be required first. Until you
can provide that, the best you can really offer is "Opinion that Jesus was
Mentally Ill".
Of course, if you have evidence for his existence upon which to base your
further evidence that he was insane, by all means post it here. It will
solve a lot of debates.
.
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| User: "Andrew" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 05:42:16 PM |
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On 2008-01-30 23:16:48 +0000, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> said:
"Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Evidence that Jesus existed would probably be required first.
The gospels are evidence that Jesus existed. If you want proof that is
an entirely different matter.
Until you
can provide that, the best you can really offer is "Opinion that Jesus was
Mentally Ill".
Of course, if you have evidence for his existence upon which to base your
further evidence that he was insane, by all means post it here. It will
solve a lot of debates.
.
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| User: "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 06:10:46 AM |
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"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2008013023421675249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
On 2008-01-30 23:16:48 +0000, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> said:
"Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Evidence that Jesus existed would probably be required first.
The gospels are evidence that Jesus existed. If you want proof that is an
entirely different matter.
no they're not, the gospels are nothing more than the ***** ramblings of
superstitious cave dwellers and goat fuckers
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 09:15:01 PM |
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SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2008013023421675249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
On 2008-01-30 23:16:48 +0000, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> said:
"Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill
Evidence that Jesus existed would probably be required first.
The gospels are evidence that Jesus existed. If you want proof that is an
entirely different matter.
no they're not, the gospels are nothing more than the ***** ramblings of
superstitious cave dwellers and goat fuckers
I doubt you have any evidence that back then they used to ***** goats, it is
hearsay and superstition from over two thousand years ago. Nothing from back
then can be taken as acceptable evidence of anything.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
30 Jan 2008 06:55:49 PM |
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Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
Evidence that Jesus existed would probably be required first.
The gospels are evidence that Jesus existed. If you want proof that is
an entirely different matter.
Odd how quickly I find myself on the other side of this question. Still,
it gives me chance to be accused of atheistic fanaticism for a change,
rather than religious fanaticism.
The gospels give us 'evidence' that Jesus walked on water, healed the sick
by touch, and raised the dead, as well as that he himself was resurrected
following his execution. Since these stories are clearly not literally
true* but are interpreted as such by modern minds, the question of whether
the gospels' 'evidence' of his very existence can be trusted is quite
valid.
--
* Assuming we do not begin from a position of automatic belief - in which
case they are merely impossible to prove.
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| User: "Andrew" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
31 Jan 2008 12:12:20 PM |
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On 2008-01-31 00:55:49 +0000, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> said:
Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
Evidence that Jesus existed would probably be required first.
The gospels are evidence that Jesus existed. If you want proof that is
an entirely different matter.
Odd how quickly I find myself on the other side of this question. Still,
it gives me chance to be accused of atheistic fanaticism for a change,
rather than religious fanaticism.
The gospels give us 'evidence' that Jesus walked on water, healed the sick
by touch, and raised the dead, as well as that he himself was resurrected
following his execution. Since these stories are clearly not literally
true* but are interpreted as such by modern minds, the question of whether
the gospels' 'evidence' of his very existence can be trusted is quite
valid.
You have to make that judgement for yourself. The fact that the Gospels
exist at all, however, are prima facie evidence for the existence of
Christ. Whether they are wholly true or not is beside the point.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
31 Jan 2008 05:23:32 PM |
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Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
You have to make that judgement for yourself. The fact that the Gospels
exist at all, however, are prima facie evidence for the existence of
Christ. Whether they are wholly true or not is beside the point.
I'd accept them as possible evidence for the existence of Jesus - although
even then I have to consider the possibility that he is a character in a
story or myth. I personally wouldn't consider them evidence for the
existence of Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ does things that aren't
physically possible. And before I can say "well, he might exist because,
after all, God could arrange miracles like that", I'd need some independent
evidence for the notion of God.
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| User: "Andrew" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
31 Jan 2008 05:33:47 PM |
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On 2008-01-31 23:23:32 +0000, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> said:
Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
You have to make that judgement for yourself. The fact that the Gospels
exist at all, however, are prima facie evidence for the existence of
Christ. Whether they are wholly true or not is beside the point.
I'd accept them as possible evidence for the existence of Jesus - although
even then I have to consider the possibility that he is a character in a
story or myth.
You're free to do that, but that simply means that you do not find the
evidence convincing/
I personally wouldn't consider them evidence for the
existence of Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ does things that aren't
physically possible. And before I can say "well, he might exist because,
after all, God could arrange miracles like that", I'd need some independent
evidence for the notion of God.
This is the argument from physical or scientific law. It's worth
remembering that 'law'in science does not mean that there is an
instruction by nature to behave in a particular way (though if you
think it is, I'd be interested in who you think is doing the
instructing). Scientific laws describe patterns of behaviour and
science seeks to explain why those patterns exist. If an event occurs
that does not fit those laws science can either seek to explain them as
a special case of a known law or ignore them. So when it comes to
miracles you can believe them or not - science can't help you make up
your mind.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
31 Jan 2008 07:19:28 PM |
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Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
I'd accept them as possible evidence for the existence of Jesus -
although even then I have to consider the possibility that he is a
character in a story or myth.
You're free to do that, but that simply means that you do not find the
evidence convincing/
I find it as plausible as such evidence can be - but the point remains
that one would have to establish Jesus' existence before demonstrating
his insanity.
This is the argument from physical or scientific law. It's worth
remembering that 'law'in science does not mean that there is an
instruction by nature to behave in a particular way (though if you
think it is, I'd be interested in who you think is doing the
instructing).
I'm quite familiar with the scientific concepts of laws, theories and
hypotheses, but thank you anyway.
So when it comes to
miracles you can believe them or not - science can't help you make up
your mind.
Oh, it can. Because science provides a logical and consistent model of
the way the world appears to work now. Therefore, I can use that model
to assess the likelihood that physics worked entirely differently only
two thousand years ago. And the likelihood of that isn't very high. So
the remaining possibilities are that Jesus was possessed of some
specific, individual power to overcome the limitations of physics (and if
that was the case then it's quite possible that power was provided by
God); or that the stories are mythical, symbolic or simply exaggerated.
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| User: "Andrew" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 10:44:13 AM |
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On 2008-02-01 01:19:28 +0000, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> said:
Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
I'd accept them as possible evidence for the existence of Jesus -
although even then I have to consider the possibility that he is a
character in a story or myth.
You're free to do that, but that simply means that you do not find the
evidence convincing/
I find it as plausible as such evidence can be - but the point remains
that one would have to establish Jesus' existence before demonstrating
his insanity.
This is the argument from physical or scientific law. It's worth
remembering that 'law'in science does not mean that there is an
instruction by nature to behave in a particular way (though if you
think it is, I'd be interested in who you think is doing the
instructing).
I'm quite familiar with the scientific concepts of laws, theories and
hypotheses, but thank you anyway.
So when it comes to
miracles you can believe them or not - science can't help you make up
your mind.
Oh, it can. Because science provides a logical and consistent model of
the way the world appears to work now. Therefore, I can use that model
to assess the likelihood that physics worked entirely differently only
two thousand years ago. And the likelihood of that isn't very high. So
the remaining possibilities are that Jesus was possessed of some
specific, individual power to overcome the limitations of physics (and if
that was the case then it's quite possible that power was provided by
God); or that the stories are mythical, symbolic or simply exaggerated.
But it is clear that these events are intended to describe miracles -
events that do not obey scientific laws. Science cannot establish
whether miracles do, or do not occur. That's simply a matter of belief.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 11:34:03 AM |
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Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
But it is clear that these events are intended to describe miracles -
events that do not obey scientific laws. Science cannot establish
whether miracles do, or do not occur. That's simply a matter of belief.
I don't think it *is* all that clear. As I said, the modern mind looks for
either truth or falsehood. It's not great at dealing with concepts that
might hover in between, or have elements of both. But myth served a
purpose for ancient people. Stories in Greek myth, Roman myth, Babylonian
and Sumerian myth weren't literally *true* - in the sense that they
happened as the story relates - but they *contained* truths. They taught
moral lessons and described ideals, and their symbolism served to make the
lessons easier to remember and to relate.
Believers often *assume* that the gospel stories of miracles are describing
literal events, and non-believers often *assume* that they're lies intended
to deceive. But there's really no reason to assume that either is the
case.
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| User: "Andrew" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 11:44:06 AM |
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On 2008-02-01 17:34:03 +0000, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> said:
Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
But it is clear that these events are intended to describe miracles -
events that do not obey scientific laws. Science cannot establish
whether miracles do, or do not occur. That's simply a matter of belief.
I don't think it *is* all that clear. As I said, the modern mind looks for
either truth or falsehood. It's not great at dealing with concepts that
might hover in between, or have elements of both.
That's a good point - and one you correctly note is often forgotten.
The view that these were miracles, however, is not a modern one.
But myth served a
purpose for ancient people. Stories in Greek myth, Roman myth, Babylonian
and Sumerian myth weren't literally *true* - in the sense that they
happened as the story relates - but they *contained* truths. They taught
moral lessons and described ideals, and their symbolism served to make the
lessons easier to remember and to relate.
Again you are entirely correct to note the symbolism of these events.
These were not random "magic tricks" but had symbolic meaning.
Believers often *assume* that the gospel stories of miracles are describing
literal events, and non-believers often *assume* that they're lies intended
to deceive. But there's really no reason to assume that either is the
case.
But by the same token. simply because an event has symbolic meaning
does not mean that it is a myth.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
31 Jan 2008 07:59:50 PM |
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:23:32 -0600, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
You have to make that judgement for yourself. The fact that the Gospels
exist at all, however, are prima facie evidence for the existence of
Christ. Whether they are wholly true or not is beside the point.
I'd accept them as possible evidence for the existence of Jesus - although
even then I have to consider the possibility that he is a character in a
story or myth. I personally wouldn't consider them evidence for the
existence of Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ does things that aren't
physically possible. And before I can say "well, he might exist because,
after all, God could arrange miracles like that", I'd need some independent
evidence for the notion of God.
You /do/ have independent evidence. It's all around you. The
problem is you don't treat that evidence objectively and instead
go on the presupposition that macro evolution is fact, and this
is where you become blind to what that same evidence you believe
is pointing to macro evolution is really pointing to: God.
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| User: "Karl Johanson" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
02 Feb 2008 07:24:16 PM |
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"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:23:32 -0600, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Andrew <thecroft@macunlimited.net> said :
You have to make that judgement for yourself. The fact that the
Gospels
exist at all, however, are prima facie evidence for the existence of
Christ. Whether they are wholly true or not is beside the point.
I'd accept them as possible evidence for the existence of Jesus -
although
even then I have to consider the possibility that he is a character in
a
story or myth. I personally wouldn't consider them evidence for the
existence of Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ does things that
aren't
physically possible. And before I can say "well, he might exist
because,
after all, God could arrange miracles like that", I'd need some
independent
evidence for the notion of God.
You /do/ have independent evidence. It's all around you. The
problem is you don't treat that evidence objectively and instead
go on the presupposition that macro evolution is fact, and this
is where you become blind to what that same evidence you believe
is pointing to macro evolution is really pointing to: God.
Your desire to see god, is because the fictitious story of god parallels
the true story of Batman, who created the universe (he didn't need to
direct evolution, it works on it's own).
Karl Johanson
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 08:05:21 AM |
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Gabriel <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> said :
You /do/ have independent evidence. It's all around you.
Yes. That's the evidence that leads me to my current religious position,
which, having no actual name for it, I'm forced to describe as a manner
of pantheistic paganism - everything is part of the divine; the gods
being adjuncts of that whole.
But the evidence leading me to that viewpoint is subjective - others
would not necessarily view it in the same way, nor follow it to the same
conclusion.
It certainly does not lead me towards a belief in a single, male creator
God, who lives in Heaven, and who sent His only son to die for our sins.
Which isn't a view I particularly oppose (or oppose at all) - it's simply
not the one I've come to. Others must make up their own minds.
problem is you don't treat that evidence objectively
There is nothing to treat objectively. The gods exist because those
things that they personify exist. Even so, many - probably most - would
not agree with my interpretation, and that is entirely up to them.
and instead
go on the presupposition that macro evolution is fact, and this
is where you become blind to what that same evidence you believe
is pointing to macro evolution is really pointing to: God.
Macroevolution is fact - and from my point of view it is part of the
Great Divine, as is all that exists.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: Evidence that Jesus was Mentally Ill |
01 Feb 2008 09:34:14 PM |
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On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:05:21 -0600, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Gabriel <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> said :
You /do/ have independent evidence. It's all around you.
Yes. That's the evidence that leads me to my current religious position,
which, having no actual name for it, I'm forced to describe as a manner
of pantheistic paganism - everything is part of the divine; the gods
being adjuncts of that whole.
But the evidence leading me to that viewpoint is subjective - others
would not necessarily view it in the same way, nor follow it to the same
conclusion.
It certainly does not lead me towards a belief in a single, male creator
God, who lives in Heaven, and who sent His only son to die for our sins.
Which isn't a view I particularly oppose (or oppose at all) - it's simply
not the one I've come to. Others must make up their own minds.
problem is you don't treat that evidence objectively
There is nothing to treat objectively. The gods exist because those
things that they personify exist. Even so, many - probably most - would
not agree with my interpretation, and that is entirely up to them.
and instead
go on the presupposition that macro evolution is fact, and this
is where you become blind to what that same evidence you believe
is pointing to macro evolution is really pointing to: God.
Macroevolution is fact - and from my point of view it is part of the
Great Divine, as is all that exists.
This alone shows how lost you are, not even mentioning the other
things you've said: macro evolution has no evidence whatsoever,
is not at all observable, verifiable or testable, let alone even
remotely fact. You are of course free to believe in that
religion, as you have claimed to have reached a religious
position in life for now.
Take care.
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