Cindy wrote:

Faith and Works- Hand in Hand ...

Just as a note to those of you reading this at tnn.religion.catholic,
the original message was cross posted to many different newsgroups and is
not really a "Catholic" message.

Most of not all of Cindy's messages fall into this classification.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

I look for evidence and proof everywhere (even in our current times) to
support christianity and what is preached, and I simply cannot find anything
solid that supports christianity.

On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:13:10 GMT, "Cindy"
<Truth@nospam.com> posted thusly:

Faith and Works- Hand in Hand



Jesus died to save His people from their sins, and redemption in

means to cease the transgression of the law of God and to be free from

sin; no heart that is stirred with enmity against the law of God is in
harmony with Christ, who suffered on Calvary to vindicate and exalt the

before the universe.

No, it doesn't mean that. Where does Scripture say
that Christ died to "vindicate and exalt the Law"? It
doesn't.

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it
saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth
may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty
before God." - Romans 3:19

The Law says what it says only to those under the Law,
to convict them and help them understand that they are
guilty before God. The Law does not speak to those
under grace.

And no one can "cease the transgression of the Law. If
they could, then Jesus' death wouldn't have been
necessary. And

Romans 7:15-24

15) For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire,
that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
16) If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent
to the law that it is good.
17) But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that
dwells in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells
no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how
to perform that which is good I do not find.
19) For I do not do the good that I desire; but the
evil which I do not will, that I do.
20) But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I
working it out, but sin dwelling in me.
21) I find then a law: when I will to do the right,
evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the Law of God according to the
inward man;
23) but I see another law in my members, warring
against the law of my mind, and bringing me into
captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from
the body of this death?

If Paul couldn't do it, you can't. Remember, he was
"blameless", by his own statement, as far as the Jewish
culture was concerned. But guess what? That was the
traditions of man. Your religion is no better. It
makes people think they're holy, because of what they
do, instead helping them to realize that born again
folks do good things because they're holy.

Those who make bold assumptions of holiness give proof in this that
they do not see themselves in the light of the law;

That's because Christian are not under the Law. Seeing
yourself in the light of the Law, is for people who
need salvation, not those who are saved. Why would God
want the saved to keep condemning themselves?

they are not spiritually enlightened,

The Law is not about the Spirit. It's the Law of sin
and death.

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is
the law." - 1 Corinthians 15:56

But thanks be to God, that He made us free from the Law
of sin and death.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath
made me free from the law of sin and death."
- Romans 8:2

and they do not loathe every species of selfishness and pride.
From their sin-stained lips fall the contradictory utterances: "I am

am sinless. Jesus teaches me that if I keep the law I am fallen from

The law is a yoke of bondage."

You are accusing anyone who doesn't want to be under
the Law, of sin. It is YOU who is full of sin!

Paul, when dealing with people just like you, said the
following, regarding circumcision and the Law...

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ
hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the
yoke of bondage." - Galatians 5:1

So you see, Cindy, the Law is, "a yoke of bondage".
They are right and you are wrong.

The Lord says, "Blessed are they that do His
commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter

through the gates into the city." We should study the Word of God

that we may come to right decisions, and act accordingly; for then we

obey the Word and be in harmony with God's holy law.

Not Saved by Law Nor in Disobedience

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by

works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience.

What you are saying here, is that in order to be saved,
one must accept Christ and claim that they are saved by
grace, through faith and then claim that they must now
follow the Law and if they are not obedient to the Old
Covenant Laws, then they will not be saved.

If you can't see the contradiction there, then you are
truly lost.

Paul wrote Galatians in response to exactly what you
are talking about here. Jews who came into the church,
who claimed that one must also follow the Old Covenant
Laws, or they would not be saved. They taught people,
as you do, to seek justification from the Law. Paul
responded and said...

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of
you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from
grace." - Galatians 5:4

He also said...

Romans 11:5-6

5) Even so then at this present time also there is a
remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of
works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no
more work.

It can't be both and we know works won't do it, so take
a guess at what's left.

The law is the
standard by which character is measured.

Only for the unsaved.

But we cannot possibly keep the
commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone
can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He
save us in disobedience to law.

You're a lost sinner, if you think that. No one is
capable of obeying the Law. Even with the Holy Spirit
within us. We are human and will sin again. Even Paul
proved that, when he said...

Romans 7:15-24

15) For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire,
that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
16) If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent
to the law that it is good.
17) But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that
dwells in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells
no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how
to perform that which is good I do not find.
19) For I do not do the good that I desire; but the
evil which I do not will, that I do.
20) But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I
working it out, but sin dwelling in me.
21) I find then a law: when I will to do the right,
evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the Law of God according to the
inward man;
23) but I see another law in my members, warring
against the law of my mind, and bringing me into
captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from
the body of this death?

While in this body, we WILL SIN.

I'm not preaching license here. I am preaching liberty
and I am merely stating a fact about our inability to
avoid sinning altogether while here on Earth.

You like to quote James and how he says to do good
works, which of course, I agree with. But you confuse
what is being said, with following the Old Covenant
Laws. But what does James really say, when he is
saying to do good works? What "law" is he talking
about?...

James 1:22-25

22) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only,
deceiving your own selves.
23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer,
he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a
glass:
24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and
straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty,
and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful
hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be
blessed in his deed.

Notice he says "the perfect law of liberty", not, "the
Old Covenant Laws". They would never be called laws of
liberty. And are we judged by the Old Covenant Laws?
If we are bound to do them or perish, then you are
lying when you claim that you do not believe that we
are under the penalty of the Law. If not doing the Law
means we are condemned, which according to you it does,
then you are saying that we are under the penalty of
the Old Covenant Law. Yet James says...

"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged
by the law of liberty." - James 2:12

No, it isn't the Old Covenant Law, but the "law of
liberty" that we will be judged by. You are wrong.

Take note of what Paul says here in Corinthians...

2 Corinthians 3:2-18

2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and
read of all men:
3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the
epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with
ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in
tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4) And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any
thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new
testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for
the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7) But if the ministration of death, written and
engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children
of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses
for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be
done away:
8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be
rather glorious?
9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory,
much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed
in glory.
10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory
in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much
more that which remaineth is glorious.
12) Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great
plainness of speech:
13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face,
that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look
to the end of that which is abolished:
14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day
remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of
the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the
vail is upon their heart.
16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the
vail shall be taken away.
17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit
of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass
the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image
from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Take special note of verses 3-4 and 12-14. You still
have the vail on.

Our love to Christ will be in proportion to the depth of our

of sin, and by the law is the knowledge of sin.

For Christians under grace, there is no conviction.
They have passed from death unto life. There is no
condemnation to face.

But as we see ourselves, let
us look away to Jesus, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us

all iniquity. By faith take hold of the merits of Christ, and the
soul-cleansing blood will be applied. The more clearly we see the evils

perils to which we have been exposed, the more grateful shall we be for
deliverance through Christ. The gospel of Christ does not give men

to break the law, for it was through transgression that the floodgates of
woe were opened upon our world.

Today sin is the same malignant thing that it was in the time of

The gospel does not promise the favor of God to anyone who in impenitence
breaks His law. The depravity of the human heart, the guilt of
transgression, the ruin of sin, are all made plain by the cross where

has made for us a way of escape.


A Doctrine Full of Deception

Self-righteousness is the danger of this age; it separates the soul
from Christ. Those who trust to their own righteousness cannot understand
how salvation comes through Christ.

And yet, that is what you are doing. You claim one has
to follow the Law or they can't be saved. Therefore,
you are trusting in your own righteousness to get you
to Heaven and that is sin.

They call sin righteousness and righteousness sin.

See above. You are guilty of saying that those who do
not put themselves under the Law are sin and those who
do are righteousness. That is evil thinking...

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that
put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that
put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
- Isaiah 5:20

They have no appreciation of the evil of transgression,
no understanding of the terror of the law;

You claim that Christians are not under the penalty of
the Law, yet here you claim that they should be in
"terror of the law". That's a contradiction and it is
evil. You are evil for teaching that.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our
righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade
as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have
taken us away." - Isaiah 64:6

Don't you get it yet? We are not capable of following
the Law. If we were, Jesus wouldn't have come here and
died and rose again for us.


--

± Pastor Dave Raymond ±

"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

/}
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\}

The real problem with creationism is that
our governments don't have the will to
prosecute the offenders (there are more
troublesome criminals around for one thing)
and our churches have lost the will to combat
heresies. - Dave Oldridge



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