Religions > Bible > "Faithful Witness" (Yeshua) is *Not* "The Alpha And The Omega" (the Creator)
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Shmuel Playfair SPlayfair" |
| Date: |
25 Nov 2007 10:51:57 AM |
| Object: |
"Faithful Witness" (Yeshua) is *Not* "The Alpha And The Omega" (the Creator) |
[Patrick H]
The quote from Revelation "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first
and last, the beginning and the end" is highly indicative of Godhood.
[Shmuel] Revelation does *not* portray Yeshua as being
"the Alpha and the Omega", the Creator. Rather this book
refers to Yeshua as being the "Faithful Witness" for the Creator
Who is "the Alpha and the Omega".
Here are some previous discussion for you to consider:
=======================================
There is only *one* "Alpha and Omega" (not two or three)
[Ruth R]
In Revelation 22, Yeshua is called the Alpha and Omega,
the first and the last also terms used for the Creator.
[Shmuel] In the book of "Revelation" we find the words which
the one and only invisible God "gave to" Yeshua "to show to
His servants". As we read, "And He Who sits on the throne
(the Almighty Creator / Father) said to me (Yeshua),
"....I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End....".
[Rev. 21.5-6] In the same way, when Isaiah says, "I am He;
I am the First and I am the Last", we understand that this prophet
is speaking in behalf of HaShem, the God of Israel, not himself.
[cf. Isa. 48.12]
Since the one and only invisible and immortal Father (Creator)
is the "Alpha and Omega", what possible need would there
or could there be for a second or third "Alpha and Omega"?
==========================================
Who Is "The First And The Last"?
[vince garcia]
you still have a problem with Jesus saying HE is the "first and the
last" when GOD says HE is "first and last" in the old testament. Either
they are both God or Jesus was deluded into thinking He WAS God,
because there is no warrant for usurping God's claim or preeminence
onto one's self otherwise
[Shmuel] "Jesus" did *not* say "HE is the 'first and the last' "; rather
he quoted his Creator (Father), the Almighty One Who never died
as saying, "I (HaShem) am the first and the last". As we read, "And
He Who sits on the throne (the Almighty Creator / Father) said
to me (Yeshua), "....I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning
and the End....". [Rev. 21.5-6]
"Revelation" is a message "which the God (ho Theos) *gave*
to Yeshua, the faithful witness. [1.1,5] So when this messenger says,
"And He [the One sitting on the throne] said to me (Yeshua), '...I am
the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End'....", we understand
that Yeshua is speaking in behalf of the one he calls "HaShem, the God,
the Almighty", not himself. [cf. Rev. 21.6] In the same way, when
Isaiah says, "I am He; I am the First and I am the Last", we understand
that this prophet is speaking in behalf of HaShem, the God of Israel,
not himself. [cf Isa. 48.12]
=========================================
The First And The Last, The Almighty And
His Faithful Witness, The Son Of Man (Adam)
[Nancy]
The Revelation of Jesus Christ
[Shmuel] This whole book is a revelation of Yeshua the Messiah,
which "the God" *gave* to him. [cf. Rev. 1.1]
________
[Nancy continued]
Jesus talking:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega (Aleph Bet)" says the Lord God,
"who is and was, and is to come, the Almighty" revelation 1:8
[Shmuel] Here, Yeshua tells us that these are the words of the Almighty
(his LORD God) Whom he is quoting.
_________
[Nancy continued]
John (Yochanan speaking)
"When I saw him I fell as dead. Than he placed his right hand on me
and said (Jesus speaking:
"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (Aleph-Bet) I'm the
Living One. I was dead and behold I am alive forevermore and
I hold the keys to death and hades"
Revelation 1:17,18
[Shmuel] Here, we find the son of Man (Adam) speaking for
his Creator saying, "I (HaShem) am the First and the Last and
the Living One (ho Zon = haHyeem)" [says the Lord God,
the Almighty.] Then, we read, "And I (Yeshua, "the son of Man")
died and look I am living unto the ages of the ages...". Since
"the First and the Last" is immortal, He can never die. But,
His "faithful witness" who perished and who received new life from
the single Creator, the Source of All Life, is speaking in behalf of
his God Who can never die, "the Alpha and the Omega". It is false
to suppose that the one who died is the same as the only Creator
(the First and the Last, the Almighty).
=====================================
"The Alpha And The Omega" And His "Faithful Witness"
[Patrick to Josh]
Jesus called Himself the Alpha and Omega, which is the [G]reek
transliteration as you well know...
[Shmuel] Not true! "Jesus" spoke for "the Alpha and Omega" showing
"a revelation which HaShem, the God, the Almighty, gave to him".
[Rev. 1.1, 8] So when this messenger says, "And He [the one
sitting on the throne] said to me, '...I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the Beginning and the End'....", we understand that Yeshua is speaking
in behalf of the one he calls "HaShem, the God, the Almighty".
[cf. Rev. 21.6] In the same way, when Isaiah writes, "I am He;
I am the First and I am the Last", we understand that this prophet
is speaking in behalf of HaShem, the God of Israel. [cf. Isa. 48.12]
[Morris]
Revelation 1:17-18 says:
"I am the First and the Last. [And] I am He who lives, and was dead,
and behold I am alive forever more."
So the "First and the Last" is the same One Who had been dead
but Who is now alive.
When was the Heavenly Father ever dead and then alive again?
[Shmuel] Never! The Incorruptible, Almighty Creator (the First
and the Last) never died! Consequently, we must realize that there are
two different persons referred to in this passage. First, we find, "I am
the First and the Last and the Living One (ho Zon = haHyeem)" [says
HaShem, the God, the Almighty]. Then, we read, "And I (Yeshua,
"the faithful witness") died and look I am living unto the ages
of the ages...".
[Morris]
Revelation 1:17-20 is a continuous quote from one person
which verse 13 identifies as having the appearance of
the Son of Man.
[Shmuel] HaShem promised that He would "raise up a prophet" just
like Moshe from among our brothers. HaShem said He would put
His "words in his mouth". And a true prophet would tell us everything
HaShem commanded him to speak. [D'vareem 18.15-22] And when
Y'shayahu ben Amotz says, "I am the First and I am the Last; and
apart from Me (singular) there is no God...." [Isaiah 44.6], we understand
that HaShem's words have been put in his mouth. So, when Yeshua
centuries later repeats, "I am the First and I am the Last", we should
understand that HaShem's words have also been put in his mouth. Both
of these human messengers died; but one has already been brought back
to life by the Source of Life. "The First and the Last" is *not* "the same
One Who had been dead but Who is now alive".
__________
[Morris]
By the way, you just said that the Heavenly Father
"laid His right hand" on John in Revelation 1:17
Are you saying that John saw the Father, and that the
Father has a right hand?
Verses 13-16 give a vivid description of that person's
head, hair, hands, chest, etc, then verse 17 says,
"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.
But He laid his right hand on me, saying to me
'Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last".
[Shmuel] No, I did *not* just say "that the Heavenly Father
'laid His right hand' on John in Revelation 1.17". [These were
your words.] We are informed that "one like a son of Adam"
who clearly represents and speaks for "the Heavenly Father"
laid his hand on YoHanan.
_________
[Shmuel had continued]
Since "the First and the Last" is incorruptible, He can never die.
But, the "faithful witness" who did die and who received new life
from his Creator, the Source of All Life, is speaking in behalf
of his God Who can never die, "the Alpha and the Omega". It is false
to suppose that the only Creator (the First and the Last, the Almighty)
"is the same One Who had been dead".
[Morris]
I do not "suppose" anything.
Revelation chapter [one] says that the person with the head and hair and
chest and hands is the same one who said "I am the First and the Last.
I am he who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forever more."
[Shmuel] In Isaiah chapter forty-four we find that Y'shayahu ben Amotz,
another person with a head, hair, chest, and hands, first said what HaShem
says: "I am the First and I am the Last; and apart from Me (singular)
there is no God....".
___________
[Morris]
You have a real problem with the concept of "dead".
Jesus did not cease to be when he was "dead".
He was as alive as he had been before the incarnation.
After all, Jesus did say that he had the power to take up
his own life again from that state of "death".
Meaning that Jesus was alive the entire time and that
only the shell of flesh was dead.
[Shmuel] While the personified Word of God was the first-born
of the created universe, the historical human being, "Jesus", was
*not* alive before he was born nor after he was dead. Normally
"dead" means "not alive"; but regardless of how we understand
the concept of "dead", it is not a state of being that can ever be applied
to the Creator Who is the Source of Life (AKA "the First and the Last").
____________
[Morris]
Revelation 22:13-16 says:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,
the First and the Last... I, Jesus, have sent My angel..."
[Shmuel] Here we find the Father (the Almighty Creator) saying
"I am the Alpha and the Omega..." in one verse; then three verses
later, we hear Jesus", the Almighty Creator's "faithful witness"
saying, "I, 'Jesus', sent my messenger....".
[Morris]
In Revelation 22:12-13 the person who says "I am the Alpha
and the Omega is the same person who says, "Behold, I am
coming quickly."
Is the Father coming to Earth?
Who is "coming quickly"?
Revelation 22:20 says:
"He who testifies to these things says, 'Surely I am
coming quickly". Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!"
[Shmuel] The Father is sending His ambassador, King Messiah, who
"testifies", speaks and acts on behalf of his Creator and Lord, HaShem.
As we read in Isaiah 56.1, "Thus says HaShem: "Maintain justice,
and do righteousness, for My salvation (y'shuatee) will come soon,
and My righteousness (v'tzeedkatee) shall be revealed".
=========================================
A Message Which The Almighty, "The Alpha And The Omega",
*Gave* To Yeshua, The Faithful Witness (1)
[coolcatlover]
I don't agree. Jesus was not only God, but He was human, too. You
cannot separate God and Man in Jesus. He was 100% God and 100%
human. You cannot say he was the suffering servant who was not God,
but God's Spirit in him made him God; that is gobblygook and makes
no sense. He either was/is God or He was/is not God; you cannot say
both. And He couldn't have not been God before He was crucified, but
became God after He was crucified, either. That is more gobblygook.
He is either God who has no beginning and no end, or He is human
with both beginning and end.
[Shmuel] First, you say "He was 100% God and 100% human". Then
you claim "He is either God who has no beginning and no end, or He
is human with both beginning and end". So which is it? Was he
*both* "God" *and* "human" or is he *either* "God" *or* "human"?
________
[coolcatlover]
I believe He is the Creator God. He said He was the Alpha and
the Omega; the Beginning and the End (Revelations). He was
there at the beginning and brought forth life; and He will be there
at the end and will bring forth life for those who trust in Him.
[Shmuel] "Revelation" is a message "which the God (ho Theos) *gave*
to Yeshua, the faithful witness. [1.1,5] So when this messenger says,
"And He [the One sitting on the throne] said to me, '...I am the Alpha and
the Omega, the Beginning and the End'....", we understand that Yeshua
is speaking in behalf of the one he calls "HaShem, the God, the Almighty".
[cf. Rev. 21.6] In the same way, when Isaiah writes, "I am He; I am
the First and I am the Last", we understand that this prophet is speaking
in behalf of HaShem, the God of Israel. [cf Isa. 48.12]
[coolcatlover]
Rev. 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he
placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First
and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive
for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
Who was "dead and behold I am alive for every and ever" and "holds the
keys of death and Hades"? Jesus. He is also calling Himself the First
and the Last (Alp[ha] and Omega).
[Shmuel] He who was dead, "Jesus", is *not* calling himself
"the First and the Last". For "the First and the Last" is incorruptible
and can *never* die. The messenger who died and was resurrected
back to life is speaking in behalf of Him Who never died,
the Alpha and the Omega.
___________
[coolcatlover continues]
Jesus also said in Rev. 22:12-13 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward
is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning
and the End."
[Shmuel] Only *one* person can be called "the First and the Last"
besides Whom is *no* other. Only the One Creator, the Father (Who
can never die) should be considered "the First and the Last". As we
read in the previous chapter, "the one Sitting on the Throne" *said to*
Yeshua, "the firstborn from the dead", "I am the Aleph and the Tav",
the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End". [cf Rev. 21.6; 22.13]
Remember that this book was written to a Jewish audience who would
have immediately understood that this "faithful witness" was speaking
in behalf of his LORD, the God, the Being (ho Hon = Who is = the Being),
the one Who was and Who will be, the Almighty. [cf Rev. 1.1-8]
[coolcatlover]
I think you're missing the point. John, the apostle to whom Jesus gave
the responsibility of taking care of Mary, His mother, after His death,
was the "faithful witness", not Jesus.
[Shmuel] ? "Jesus" [not John] is called "the faithful witness" in
the first chapter of this book. [Revelation 1.5]
____________
[coolcatlover continued]
Jesus was speaking for the Father, and also proclaiming His equality
with the Father by stating that He, Jesus, was the First and the Last,
the Beginning and the End.
[Shmuel] You wrongly suppose that there can be more than one
"First and Last". The Father, the one and only source of creation,
is the One apart from Whom (i.e., "Me" [singular]) there is
no other God. [Isa. 44.6 (41.4; 48.12)]
The true "Messiah" comes in the name of the One Who is greater
than he. Yeshua referred to his Creator (Father) as "One Who alone
is God". OTOH the "antichrist (Messiah)" proclaims "His equality
with the Father" as "another" Christ who comes in his own coequal,
co-eternal name. [John 5. 43-44]
========================================
A Message Which The Almighty, "The Alpha And The Omega",
*Gave* To Yeshua, The Faithful Witness (2)
[Shmuel] "Revelation" is a message "which the God (ho Theos) *gave*
to Yeshua, the faithful witness. [1.1,5] So when this messenger says,
"And He [the One sitting on the throne] said to me, '...I am the Alpha
and the Omega, the Beginning and the End'....", we understand that
Yeshua is speaking in behalf of the one he calls "HaShem, the God,
the Almighty".
[Morris]
So Jesus did say "I am the Alpha and the Omega", but he did
so on the Father's behalf?
[Shmuel] Yes, this "faithful witness" spoke on his Creator's behalf,
just as Y'shayahu ben Amotz had recorded centuries earlier, saying,
"I am the First and the Last".
________
[Shmuel] He who was dead, "Jesus", is *not* calling himself
"the First and the Last". For "the First and the Last" is immortal
and can *never* die. The messenger who died and was resurrected
back to life is speaking in behalf of Him Who never died,
the Alpha and the Omega.
_________
[Shmuel] Only *one* person can be called "the First and the Last"
besides Whom is *no* other. Only the One Creator, the Father (Who
can never die) should be considered "the First and the Last". As we
read in the previous chapter, "the one Sitting on the Throne" *said to*
Yeshua, "the firstborn from the dead", "I am the Aleph and the Tav",
the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End". [cf Rev. 21.6;
22.13] Remember that this book was written to a Jewish audience who
would have immediately understood that this "faithful witness" was
speaking in behalf of his LORD, the God, the Being (ho Hon =
Who is = the Being), the one Who was and Who will be, the Almighty.
[cf Rev. 1.1-8]
[coolcatlover]
I think you're missing the point. John, the apostle to whom Jesus gave
the responsibility of taking care of Mary, His mother, after His death,
was the "faithful witness", not Jesus.
[Shmuel] ? "Jesus" [not John] is called "the faithful witness" in
the first chapter of this book. [Revelation 1.5]
[Morris]
Revelation 1:1 and 22:8 say that the message was being sent by way
of an "angel".
If you believe that Jesus is an angel, then you must explain how
an angel can be born of a woman and die on a cross.
[Shmuel] This "revelation" was given by God to Yeshua and sent
by way of Yeshua's "messenger" to YoHanan. [Rev. 1.1; 22.16]
I believe that Yeshua was the human "prophet" whom Moshe promised
HaShem would "raise up". Just like Moshe, he was from among
our brothers. HaShem put His "words in his mouth". And he told
us everything HaShem commanded him to speak. [D'vareem 18.15-22]
==========================
"Pay attention to him...since My name is inside him"
[Patrick to Josh]
Jesus called Himself the Alpha and Omega, which is the [G]reek
transliteration as you well know...
[Shmuel] Not true!
[Patrick]
That is your interpretation!
____________
[Shmuel]
"Jesus" spoke for "the Alpha and Omega" showing "a revelation which
HaShem, the God, the Almighty, gave to him". [Rev. 1.1, 8] So when
this messenger says, "And He [the one sitting on the throne] said
to me, '...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and
the End'....", we understand that Yeshua is speaking in behalf
of the one he calls "HaShem, the God, the Almighty". [cf. Rev. 21.6]
[Patrick]
It doesn't say there He is speaking on behalf on anyone there, Shmuel.
Rather, the messenger is an angel and not Christ.
[Shmuel] ? Throughout the book of Revelation, "God" (HaShem =
the Almighty) Who is "the One sitting on the throne" is distinguished
from "Christ" who is "the lamb". We are specifically instructed
in the previous verse that "the One sitting on the throne" said what
immediately follows: "...I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the Beginning and the End...". [cf. Rev. 21.5-6]
_________
[Patrick]
What about Revelation 2:8?
'These things says the first and the last, WHO WAS DEAD and
came back to life"
First (Alpha) and last (Omega)
Compare that with Isaiah 41:4
Please give a clear explanation, Shmuel.
[Shmuel] All of these messages from "the One who is and who was and
who is coming", HaShem, were given to His "faithful witness, the first-born
of the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth" to deliver to the seven
congregations. We see here that this resurrected human creature
is *given* his Creator's name, "the First and the Last". As we were
instructed in Exodus, the Almighty's name would be given to His messenger:
"See, I am sending a messenger (malaH) ahead of you to guard you along
the way.... Pay attention to him and listen to what he says... ...since
My name is inside him. [23.20-21] IOW, the Almighty Creator's name
(authority) was given to His "faithful witness" who "testifies" in
His behalf. [Rev. 1.5; 22.20] We should pay attention to HaShem's
messengers and listen to His faithful witness who bears His authority. But,
we should ultimately worship only the One "sitting on the throne".
__________
[Shmuel]
In the same way, when Isaiah writes, "I am He; I am the First
and I am the Last", we understand that this prophet is speaking
in behalf of HaShem, the God of Israel. [cf. Isa. 48.12]
[Patrick]
Maybe for the prophet, but not Christ, Shmuel. Explain how in Revelation
2:8 Hashem could die, and come back to life. Pull out your greek
concordance,commentaries, etc. and show me what you find concerning how
Jesus stops talking for Hashem right after "last" and in context now is
speaking for Himself when He says "Who was dead, and came back to life"
[Shmuel] While this "faithful witness" never "stops talking [testifying]
for HaShem", his Creator, this son of Adam identifies himself separately
from the Almighty as " 'the First and the Last' who was dead and came
back to life". IOW, HaShem, "the First and the Last", gives His name
or authority to His Messiah (Anointed One), the lamb who died and
came back to life. But, the Almighty Creator Who "sits upon the throne",
Himself, does *not* die and come back to life.
_________
[Patrick]
And since you brought up Isaiah, Explain Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, (1)
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts; (2)
I am the first and I am the last besides me there is no God"
question: are there 2 LORD's?
[Shmuel] ? No, there is only *one* HaShem (LORD). A better
translation of Isaiah 44.6 reads:
"So said HaShem, the King of Israel even his (Israel's) Redeemer,
HaShem of Hosts, 'I (singular, not "we" plural) am First
and I am Last, and besides Me (singular) there is no God...' ".
If you were to read somewhere, "So said Joshua, the anointed
of HaShem even His faithful witness, Joshua of Natzeret, 'I am
the first-born from the dead' ", would you think there might be
two different Joshuas?
=========================================
[linda]
What??????? And when i saw HIM, I Fell at HIS feet as dead.
And HE laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me Fear not,
I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST; 18 I AM HE THAT LIVETH, AND WAS
DEAD; AND, BEHOLD, I AM ALIVE FOR EVERMORE, AMEN. Now when
the reader reads these verses, he must assume that the one who is
talking is identifying himself as the first and the last.
To come to a different conclusion is to twist the scripture into
a meaning that is clearly not here.
[Shmuel] The immortal Creator, "the First and the Last", could never
be identified as being "DEAD". Consequently, we must realize that
there are two different persons referred to in this passage. First,
we find, "I am the First and the Last and the Living One (ho Zon =
haHyeem)" [says HaShem, the God, the Almighty.] Then, we read,
"And I (Yeshua, "the faithful witness") died and look I am living
unto the ages of the ages...".
HaShem promised that He would "raise up a prophet" just like Moshe
from among our brothers. HaShem said He would put His "words
in his mouth". And a true prophet would tell us everything that
HaShem commanded him to speak. [D'vareem 18.15-22] And when
Y'shayahu ben Amotz says, "I am the First and I am the Last; and apart
from Me (singular) there is no God...." [Isaiah 44.6], we understand
that HaShem's words have been put in his mouth. So, when Yeshua
centuries later repeats, "I am the First and I am the Last", we
should understand that HaShem's words have also been put in his
mouth. Both of these human messengers died; but one has already been
brought back to life by the One Who could save him from death,
the Source of Life. The human messenger, the firstborn of creation,
who was dead but who has now been brought back to life is *not*
"the First and the Last", the one and only Creator.
=======================================
[linda]
interesting indeed!!!!! So.....then, you are saying that He was
identifying Himself as the FIRST AND THE LAST, however, he
was not telling the truth???
Jesus Christ according to His own words,says...."fear not; I am
the first and the last" I am He that liveth, and was dead.
and behold , I am alive forever more. Why would he tell John
to fear not,, and then lie about His identity??
[Shmuel] ?? I have no idea how you could have misinterpreted what
I said in such a manner. No, Yeshua, "the faithful witness", was
telling the truth when he identified his Creator (the Father AKA
as "the First and the Last") as being the One Whom he represented.
Here we find John encountering the risen "Son of Man" who was
speaking the words or giving "a revelation which God gave to him".
While this visible Son of Man speaks in behalf of "his [invisible]
God and Father (Creator), this resurrected creature is clearly
distinguished throughout this book from his God, the Creator
(Father). For "apart from [Him, 'the First and the Last'] there
is no God....". [cf. Isa. 44.6]
__________
[linda continued]
Jesus Christ also said to the jews I have the power to take
my life and to raise it up again.
[Shmuel] Yeshua received the authority to lay down his life
and to take it up again from his Creator (Father). [Yn. 10.17-18]
__________
[linda continued]
Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life. meaning
eternal life.
[Shmuel] Yes, Yeshua is identified as being the personified Word
(Torah = Instruction) of God (i.e. the way, truth, and life).
The righteous of the commonwealth of Israel, those who speak
their Creator's word and live according to His instruction, are
identified as one with him who is the head of the body.
===========================================
[Linda]
now i have a simple question.......Why didn't the risen CHRIST just
say...."fear not; I represent the first and the last; that way,
the reader wouldn't get confused. Because if you read the verse the
way it is written, you get the idea the Christ is the ALMIGHTY GOD.
[Shmuel] At the beginning of this book and chapter, the author
explains that these words are "a revelation of Yeshua the Messiah
which God (the one and only Creator) gave to him...". [1.1]
A few verses later, we are informed that this "God" is Yeshua's
(his) God and Creator (Father). [1.6] Also, the first time we
find a reference to one saying "I am the Aleph and the Omega" in
this chapter, we are told that these are the words of the ALMIGHTY
GOD and not of His "faithful witness (representative), the firstborn
of the dead", Yeshua. [cf. 1.8; 1.5]
________
[Linda continued]
When you read other verses in scripture, such as, John 1;1-3
you find the word (Jesus Christ) is God and that He is
creator, and that all things that were created were created
by Him. That without Him, was not anything made that
was made. So, when the honest reader reads these verses
he with the help of the illuminating power of the HOLY SPIRIT
understands that Jesus Christ is God.
[Shmuel] The personified Word was the agent of the Creator
(not the Creator Himself). The one and only Creator created
"all things [in the heavens and the earth]" by or through
His firstborn agent. Paul clearly distinguished the Creator from
His agent when he wrote, "Yet for us there is one God,
the Father (Creator = HaShem) *from* [ex] Whom are all things...
and one [human] Master (Lord), Yeshua the Messiah (the firstborn
of the created order) *through* [di] whom are all things....".
[1 Cor. 8.6]
This agent, personified Word (through / by whom are all things),
is called "God" (Sovereign) because he is given the name
and the authority from "THE GOD" Whom he represents. And,
like Philo before him, John distinguishes this secondary "God",
the firstborn agent or means of creation, from "THE God"
(the only Creator from Whom are all things). [cf Leg. All., II, 86]
_________
[Linda continued]
However, if you don't believe in the Diety of Christ, you would
have to find clever ways around the clear meanings of these verses.
You know, the religious jews in the book of John 5: 15-18 got
a little upset with Christ Himself and they sought the more to kill
Him because He called God His Father , making Himself equal
with God. Now this observation is that of the speaker, (John).
[Shmuel] Those "Jews" who "were seeking...to kill him" (not John)
falsely accused him not only of breaking the Shabbath, but also
for making himself equal to God. But, Yeshua defended himself
against that false charge. First, he acknowledged his complete
dependence (rather than equality) on his Creator by saying that
the son can do *nothing* of himself except what his Father gives
him to do. Also, notice the defense Yeshua made when the same
false charge was brought against him a few chapters later. Yeshua
pointed out that if those to whom the word of God came could
rightly be called "Gods (Eloheem)" [i.e. "sons of the Most High"]
(Ps. 82.6), certainly the one whom the Creator sanctified (authorized
as His representative) and sent into the world could also be called
"a son of God". [10.30-39]
.
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| User: "Semper Libčr®" |
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| Title: Re: "Faithful Witness" (Yeshua) is *Not* "The Alpha And The Omega" (the Creator) |
02 Jan 2008 06:25:45 PM |
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"Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote in message
news:4749a835$0$8637$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[Patrick H]
The quote from Revelation "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first
and last, the beginning and the end" is highly indicative of Godhood.
[Shmuel] Revelation does *not* portray Yeshua as being
"the Alpha and the Omega", the Creator. Rather this book
refers to Yeshua as being the "Faithful Witness" for the Creator
Who is "the Alpha and the Omega".
If he was simply a witness, He would have said, "He is the Alpha and the
Omega"
This is what He ACTUALLY says in the first person is...
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the
Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
It is hard to imagine how much more clear the Holy Spirt could have been in
explaining who Yeshua was and is.
Hebrews 1 v 3 says this " The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the
exact representation< of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful
word ". [The Word, of course, is likewise describe as being God in John 1]
The Greek word here for glory is a word called " Doxa ". Meaning, all that
God has, all that God is, and all that God will ever be.
.
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| User: "MICHAEL" |
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| Title: Re: "Faithful Witness" (Yeshua) is *Not* "The Alpha And The Omega"(the Creator) |
02 Jan 2008 06:40:01 PM |
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On Jan 2, 6:25 pm, "Semper Lib=E8r=AE" <nopolicestates?????
Hj...@freedom4all.org> wrote:
"Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote in message
news:4749a835$0$8637$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[Patrick H]
The quote from Revelation "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first=
and last, the beginning and the end" is highly indicative of Godhood.
[Shmuel] Revelation does *not* portray Yeshua as being
"the Alpha and the Omega", the Creator. Rather this book
refers to Yeshua as being the "Faithful Witness" for the Creator
Who is "the Alpha and the Omega".
If he was simply a witness, He would have said, "He is the Alpha and the
Omega"
This is what He ACTUALLY says in the first person is...
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the
Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
It is hard to imagine how much more clear the Holy Spirt could have been i=
n
explaining who Yeshua was and is.
Hebrews 1 v 3 says this " The Son is the radiance of God's glory
Which plainly states they are separate beings, though connected by
ways in which will be argued until the end of time.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden
these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little
children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Explain this with your own words.
Psalm 31:5
Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of
truth.
#Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit
my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Is Jesus his own father, yes or no?
and the>exact representation< of his being, sustaining all things by
his powerful
word ". [The Word, of course, is likewise describe as being God in John 1]=
The Greek word here for glory is a word called " Doxa ". Meaning, all that=
God has, all that God is, and all that God will ever be.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: "Faithful Witness" (Jehoshua Moshiach is the LORD G-D of Israel) |
02 Jan 2008 07:38:38 PM |
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On Jan 2, 4:40=A0pm, MICHAEL <shepp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 6:25 pm, "Semper =A0Lib=E8r=AE" <nopolicestates?????
Hj...@freedom4all.org> wrote:
"Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote in message
news:4749a835$0$8637$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[Patrick H]
=A0 =A0 The quote from Revelation "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the=
first
and last, the beginning and the end" is highly indicative of Godhood=
..
[Shmuel] =A0Revelation does *not* portray Yeshua as being
"the Alpha and the Omega", the Creator. =A0Rather this book
refers to Yeshua as being the "Faithful Witness" for the Creator
Who is "the Alpha and the Omega".
If he was simply a witness, He would have said, "He is the Alpha and the=
Omega"
This is what He ACTUALLY says in the first person is...
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the=
Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
It is hard to imagine how much more clear the Holy Spirt could have been=
in
explaining who Yeshua was and is.
Hebrews 1 v 3 says this " The Son is the radiance of God's glory
Which plainly states they are separate beings, though connected by
ways in which will be argued until the end of time.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden
these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little
children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Explain this with your own words.
Psalm 31:5
Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of
truth.
#Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit
my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Is Jesus his own father, yes or no?
I have explained this again and again, but you don't want to hear the
answer. Jesus said, my words are not my own, but the father in me, he
doeth the works. He also said, I am in the father and the father in
me. In other words, while incarnate Jesus gets his power and
authority from the father, but yet it is also true that the father
gets his power and authority from Jehoshua Moshiach, JHVSA, the true
LORD and G-D of Israel. In his true estate, Jesus is the LORD, and
the father is the angel of the LORD, whose name is Michael. When
David said, the LORD sayeth unto my Lord ..., the LORD is Jehoshua and
David's Lord is Michael. Michael is the protector of Israel, the
teacher of Moses, and the one who inspired most of the prophets.
.
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| User: "MICHAEL" |
|
| Title: Re: "Faithful Witness" (Jehoshua Moshiach is the LORD G-D of Israel) |
02 Jan 2008 07:46:03 PM |
|
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On Jan 2, 7:38 pm, wrote:
On Jan 2, 4:40 pm, MICHAEL <shepp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 6:25 pm, "Semper Lib=E8r=AE" <nopolicestates?????
Hj...@freedom4all.org> wrote:
"Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote in message
news:4749a835$0$8637$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[Patrick H]
The quote from Revelation "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the f=
irst
and last, the beginning and the end" is highly indicative of Godho=
od.
[Shmuel] Revelation does *not* portray Yeshua as being
"the Alpha and the Omega", the Creator. Rather this book
refers to Yeshua as being the "Faithful Witness" for the Creator
Who is "the Alpha and the Omega".
If he was simply a witness, He would have said, "He is the Alpha and t=
he
Omega"
This is what He ACTUALLY says in the first person is...
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says t=
he
Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
It is hard to imagine how much more clear the Holy Spirt could have be=
en in
explaining who Yeshua was and is.
Hebrews 1 v 3 says this " The Son is the radiance of God's glory
Which plainly states they are separate beings, though connected by
ways in which will be argued until the end of time.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden
these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little
children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Explain this with your own words.
Psalm 31:5
Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of
truth.
#Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit
my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Is Jesus his own father, yes or no?
I have explained this again and again, but you don't want to hear the
answer.
I already know the answer.Jesus, the Creator, the Holy Spirit, the
Seven Angels before His throne(Ancient of Days) are separate beings.
Jesus said, my words are not my own, but the father in me, he
doeth the works. He also said, I am in the father and the father in
me. In other words, while incarnate Jesus gets his power and
authority from the father, but yet it is also true that the father
gets his power and authority from Jehoshua Moshiach, JHVSA, the true
LORD and G-D of Israel. In his true estate, Jesus is the LORD, and
the father is the angel of the LORD, whose name is Michael. When
David said, the LORD sayeth unto my Lord ..., the LORD is Jehoshua and
David's Lord is Michael. Michael is the protector of Israel, the
teacher of Moses, and the one who inspired most of the prophets.
I didnt teach Moses anything.I was there, though, thats how *I* know
the pattern he was shown.
Have a great day.
.
|
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: "Faithful Witness" (Jehoshua Moshiach is the LORD G-D of Israel) |
02 Jan 2008 11:32:13 PM |
|
|
On Jan 2, 5:46=A0pm, MICHAEL <shepp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 7:38 pm, wrote:
On Jan 2, 4:40 pm, MICHAEL <shepp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 6:25 pm, "Semper =A0Lib=E8r=AE" <nopolicestates?????
Hj...@freedom4all.org> wrote:
"Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote in message
news:4749a835$0$8637$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[Patrick H]
=A0 =A0 The quote from Revelation "I am the Alpha and the Omega,=
the first
and last, the beginning and the end" is highly indicative of God=
hood.
[Shmuel] =A0Revelation does *not* portray Yeshua as being
"the Alpha and the Omega", the Creator. =A0Rather this book
refers to Yeshua as being the "Faithful Witness" for the Creator
Who is "the Alpha and the Omega".
If he was simply a witness, He would have said, "He is the Alpha and=
the
Omega"
This is what He ACTUALLY says in the first person is...
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says=
the
Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
It is hard to imagine how much more clear the Holy Spirt could have =
been in
explaining who Yeshua was and is.
Hebrews 1 v 3 says this " The Son is the radiance of God's glory
Which plainly states they are separate beings, though connected by
ways in which will be argued until the end of time.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden
these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little
children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Explain this with your own words.
Psalm 31:5
Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of
truth.
#Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit
my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Is Jesus his own father, yes or no?
I have explained this again and again, but you don't want to hear the
answer.
I already know the answer.Jesus, the Creator, the Holy Spirit, the
Seven Angels before His throne(Ancient of Days) are separate beings.
=A0Jesus said, my words are not my own, but the father in me, he
doeth the works. =A0He also said, I am in the father and the father in
me. =A0In other words, while incarnate Jesus gets his power and
authority from the father, but yet it is also true that the father
gets his power and authority from Jehoshua Moshiach, JHVSA, the true
LORD and G-D of Israel. =A0In his true estate, Jesus is the LORD, and
the father is the angel of the LORD, whose name is Michael. =A0When
David said, the LORD sayeth unto my Lord ..., the LORD is Jehoshua and
David's Lord is Michael. =A0Michael is the protector of Israel, the
teacher of Moses, and the one who inspired most of the prophets.
I didnt teach Moses anything.I was there, though, thats how *I* know
the pattern he was shown.
Have a great day.
Just one problem, Michael (NOT the angel Michael), then Jesus ain't
the Jewish Messiah, and everything stays just the way it is, divided
and damned. Plus your knowledge is faulty and is just the conventions
of men, not the Truth of G-D. You are about as far from the angel
Michael as one could possibly get. Perhaps you are a FALLEN Archangel
Michael, or an astral plane imposter of the same.
.
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|
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| User: "a d a m" |
|
| Title: Re: "Faithful Witness" (Jehoshua Moshiach is the LORD G-D of Israel) |
04 Jan 2008 01:54:58 AM |
|
|
On Jan 2, 11:32 pm, wrote:
On Jan 2, 5:46 pm, MICHAEL <shepp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 7:38 pm, wrote:
On Jan 2, 4:40 pm, MICHAEL <shepp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 2, 6:25 pm, "Semper Lib=E8r=AE" <nopolicestates?????
Hj...@freedom4all.org> wrote:
"Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote in message
news:4749a835$0$8637$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[Patrick H]
The quote from Revelation "I am the Alpha and the Omega, t=
he first
and last, the beginning and the end" is highly indicative of G=
odhood.
[Shmuel] Revelation does *not* portray Yeshua as being
"the Alpha and the Omega", the Creator. Rather this book
refers to Yeshua as being the "Faithful Witness" for the Creator=
Who is "the Alpha and the Omega".
If he was simply a witness, He would have said, "He is the Alpha a=
nd the
Omega"
This is what He ACTUALLY says in the first person is...
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, sa=
ys the
Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
It is hard to imagine how much more clear the Holy Spirt could hav=
e been in
explaining who Yeshua was and is.
Hebrews 1 v 3 says this " The Son is the radiance of God's glory
Which plainly states they are separate beings, though connected by
ways in which will be argued until the end of time.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidde=
n
these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little
children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Explain this with your own words.
Psalm 31:5
Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of
truth.
#Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commi=
t
my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Is Jesus his own father, yes or no?
I have explained this again and again, but you don't want to hear the
answer.
I already know the answer.Jesus, the Creator, the Holy Spirit, the
Seven Angels before His throne(Ancient of Days) are separate beings.
Jesus said, my words are not my own, but the father in me, he
doeth the works. He also said, I am in the father and the father in
me. In other words, while incarnate Jesus gets his power and
authority from the father, but yet it is also true that the father
gets his power and authority from Jehoshua Moshiach, JHVSA, the true
LORD and G-D of Israel. In his true estate, Jesus is the LORD, and
the father is the angel of the LORD, whose name is Michael. When
David said, the LORD sayeth unto my Lord ..., the LORD is Jehoshua and=
David's Lord is Michael. Michael is the protector of Israel, the
teacher of Moses, and the one who inspired most of the prophets.
I didnt teach Moses anything.I was there, though, thats how *I* know
the pattern he was shown.
Have a great day.
Just one problem, Michael (NOT the angel Michael), then Jesus ain't
the Jewish Messiah, and everything stays just the way it is, divided
and damned. Plus your knowledge is faulty and is just the conventions
of men, not the Truth of G-D. You are about as far from the angel
Michael as one could possibly get. Perhaps you are a FALLEN Archangel
Michael, or an astral plane imposter of the same.
Well thanks for clearing that up, sparky.
.
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| User: "Bod Bodhi" |
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| Title: Re: "Faithful Witness" (Yeshua) is *Not* "The Alpha And The Omega"(the Creator) |
25 Nov 2007 02:47:08 PM |
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|
Let me try and explain with the example of a "Butterfly".
Apply a metamorphisis to your self, but keep in mind,
awareness,body awareness,life awareness,spirit
"I" knows and awareness confirms that I,am within this body. eg,
You can talk to my body.
But if my "I" choose not to listen then who is the I that Iam within me?
From the begining to the end of and within his body I,am.
Many parts of the Bible express this to you and in many ways.
Life is within each one of you at conception, the sperm is alive and so
is the egg and when one man and one woman become one flesh a child is
born. "This is a holy Marrage!" but most of you think marrage its a bit
of legialistic paper. (a marrage)
Anyways I digress...
But what of the spiritual
Take a look at what the bible says about spiritual awareness and events.
Most of which involve a person dieing or experssed some form thereof,
where by having been taken and returned alive to recorded the event,
from a spiritual overstanding or perception.
NOW you are becoming more aware of reality. From what it was, to what it
will be. This has been caused by a correction or temporal shift in
universal understanding. In the last few years there has been a shift,
much like the 100 monkey syndrome and thus like a shole of fish.... Wooshhh
Greater overstanding brings greater change.
Truth is replacing curruption openly. People are standing on the truth
and demenading it. The vale is rent. and the blind begin to see. See?
Bod Bodhi +
P.L.U.S. Peace Love and Unity of Spirit.
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