| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"oldwetdog" |
| Date: |
07 Nov 2006 09:37:23 PM |
| Object: |
False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
False Doctrine about the Coming of the Lord
Many Christians are a little surprised to learn the number of
conflicting or contradictory doctrines which are popular in Christian
Churches today.
Some majority of Christians may agree that since Jehovah's Witnesses and
Seventh Day Adventists Doctrine contradict each other they can not both
be correct. The foundations of both these Doctrines were shown to be
false by the early 1900's -- when their predictions proved wrong.
"Mainstream" Christian Doctrine seems to fit into one of three groups:
A-millennialism, Post-millennialism and Pre-millennialism. Even at first
glance, the interested Bible student will recognize that these
contradictory doctrines can not all be true -- though all may be false.
These major categories can, certainly, be further divided (but that is
not my focus so I won't spend any time on it).
However, as an example, both A-millennialism and Post-millennialism may,
or may not, include some version of "Preterism." And, Preterism is
itself divided into various factions. The millennial doctrines may, or
may not, agree that Christ will physically rule on this earth for a
thousand, literal, years. Even at first glance, the casual observer will
understand that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true --
though all may be false.
For example, Pre-millennialism is itself divided into major and minor
camps, and perhaps the major variations concern the doctrine of "the
rapture." The doctrine of "Rapture" is itself divided into three
versions: Pre-trib, Mid-trib and Post-trib. The critical observer will
soon perceive that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true.
Will the false doctrine of our day be proved wrong by the fulfillment of
prophecy?
If so, which?
owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
The Bible is a window in this prison world, through which we may look
into eternity. Timothy Dwight
..
.
|
|
| User: "Mistylien" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
08 Nov 2006 03:11:24 AM |
|
|
Now this is more like it see in text,
"oldwetdog" <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:12l2k7mh34jgfbe@corp.supernews.com...
False Doctrine about the Coming of the Lord
Many Christians are a little surprised to learn the number of conflicting or contradictory
doctrines which are popular in Christian Churches today.
That is because not very many go back and read the examples of
Just what the "Second Coming" intails
See below,
Some majority of Christians may agree that since Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day
Adventists Doctrine contradict each other they can not both be correct. The foundations of
both these Doctrines were shown to be false by the early 1900's -- when their predictions
proved wrong.
They both were ever so wrong but because of each had different problem
that they just would not address.
The SDA got bogged down with the KJV bible because of the built in
mistake they ran with, Mainly Daniel 8:14.
The Jovies got too exited expaning prophecy so they expanded when
it was not called for or allowed.
Mainly Dainiel 4:18
But in their zeal they totaly missed Verse 24.
"Mainstream" Christian Doctrine seems to fit into one of three groups: A-millennialism,
Post-millennialism and Pre-millennialism. Even at first glance, the interested Bible student
will recognize that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true -- though all may be
false.
You are right in saying mainstream C, D.
but when we get out of that mainsteam
and start to let the Spirit of Truth be the guide. . .
These major categories can, certainly, be further divided (but that is not my focus so I won't
spend any time on it).
However, as an example, both A-millennialism and Post-millennialism may, or may not, include
some version of "Preterism." And, Preterism is itself divided into various factions. The
millennial doctrines may, or may not, agree that Christ will physically rule on this earth for
a thousand, literal, years. Even at first glance, the casual observer will understand that
these contradictory doctrines can not all be true --
though all may be false.
Good observations.
For example, Pre-millennialism is itself divided into major and minor camps, and perhaps the
major variations concern the doctrine of "the rapture." The doctrine of "Rapture" is itself
divided into three versions: Pre-trib, Mid-trib and Post-trib. The critical observer will soon
perceive that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true.
I may have to exclued "Mid-tib, for the Church was taken out of the way
for the Great Trib to be fulfilled and was brought back right as soon
as the time of the GT was over.
Will the false doctrine of our day be proved wrong by the fulfillment of prophecy?
Yes it will but the Bible itself must be seen for what it really is
showing as "GREAT EXAMPLES", see below.
If so, which?
Luke the whole Chapter.
John 20:10-18,
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she
wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus'
body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At
this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where
you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to
my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your
God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them
that he had said these things to her.
NIV
if you look at the above with an open mind and the Spirit of Truth.
You may see a couple of things in there.
One. Mary M, received her reward for Washing the feet of Jesus, the only
one that did. She was choosen to be the fist building block of the New Bride
of the lamb Church.
Two, You may see that she was in raptured by recognizing The Lord that she loved
so dearly for so long in his 3 and a half years of minustry, that she was a part of,
But her she is not recognizing Him until he said her name.
Yes she was "RAPTURED" right then and there in the twinkling of the eye when
she did recognize it was Him that she was taling to
Neither did the 2 on the road to Emmas recognize him till later.
nor did the 11 and then doubting Thomas.
M,
owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
The Bible is a window in this prison world, through which we may look into eternity. Timothy
Dwight
.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Azaliah" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
08 Nov 2006 08:06:21 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 03:11:24 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
For example, Pre-millennialism is itself divided into major and minor camps, and perhaps the
major variations concern the doctrine of "the rapture." The doctrine of "Rapture" is itself
divided into three versions: Pre-trib, Mid-trib and Post-trib. The critical observer will soon
perceive that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true.
I may have to exclued "Mid-tib, for the Church was taken out of the way
for the Great Trib to be fulfilled and was brought back right as soon
as the time of the GT was over.
Huh? Can you expound on this, please?
John 20:10-18,
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she
wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus'
body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At
this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where
you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to
my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your
God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them
that he had said these things to her.
NIV
if you look at the above with an open mind and the Spirit of Truth.
This is where I object. What you're saying is,
that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't
have "the Spirit of Truth" and thus, set yourself
up as the judge of all doctrine. (:
Lots of people have beliefs and all claim to be
getting them from the Holy Spirit and yet, many
disagree. So this claim means nothing to me.
Scripture is the bottom line and the ruler by
which we measure all doctrine.
You may see a couple of things in there.
One. Mary M, received her reward for Washing the feet of Jesus, the only
one that did. She was choosen to be the fist building block of the New Bride
of the lamb Church.
I see no such thing and it certainly does not say that.
If you think it does, then which verse? :)
Two, You may see that she was in raptured by recognizing The Lord that she loved
so dearly for so long in his 3 and a half years of minustry, that she was a part of,
But her she is not recognizing Him until he said her name.
Yes she was "RAPTURED" right then and there in the twinkling of the eye when
she did recognize it was Him that she was taling to
Can you define, exactly and without being vague
(not to say that you would intentionally be so),
what you believe it means to be "raptured"?
Btw, were you formerly known as, "Misty of the mist"?
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mistylien" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
10 Nov 2006 02:55:23 AM |
|
|
"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lpo3l25d00r4rnje2tvqgjmlbf60l2p3an@4ax.com...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 03:11:24 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
For example, Pre-millennialism is itself divided into major and minor camps, and perhaps the
major variations concern the doctrine of "the rapture." The doctrine of "Rapture" is itself
divided into three versions: Pre-trib, Mid-trib and Post-trib. The critical observer will
soon
perceive that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true.
I may have to exclued "Mid-tib, for the Church was taken out of the way
for the Great Trib to be fulfilled and was brought back right as soon
as the time of the GT was over.
Huh? Can you expound on this, please?
Sure I can but any one that wants to understand the Bible Prophesies
needs to learn some of it characteristics, or they will remain "UNUNDERSTANDABLE"!
You know like Timelines.
Realizing prophecy code Keys.
Opening ones heart to some otherwise little known concepts and precept
about it or what is really going on it most of the prophesies.
Take for instance the "RAPTURE" thing.
It is not really as deep and secret as the modern day bible thumpers
are trying to make it out to be.
There is no making people dissapere up off of the face of the earth with
His Second coming.
It is only a matter of starting to believe in Jesus Christ and Him being
The living Word of God, AKA the Creator God and Lord of all
creation.
There were not very many Souls that were to come into Belief all
during the Dark ages or what the real Christian can gleen as the Great
Tribulation period.
Therefore People coming into belief in Jesus Christ went on
from Resurrection to when "THE MAN OF SIN" was revieled.
From then to when that "MAN OF SIN" received the "deadly wound.
not very many came into belief except during the end of the GT
that God shortened or there would be no human life left in the world.
The from that time to today Souls again were added to the real true
Christian Church.
Oh by the way When one is added to the true Christian Church is what
is called "the rapture".
This is about as much as I will give at this time to see how you all
receive the message.
M,
John 20:10-18,
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As
she
wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus'
body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At
this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was
Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me
where
you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
See here in a twinkling of the eye Mary was Raptured into the Christian Chuch.
m,
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to
my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your
God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told
them
that he had said these things to her.
NIV
if you look at the above with an open mind and the Spirit of Truth.
This is where I object. What you're saying is,
that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't
have "the Spirit of Truth" and thus, set yourself
up as the judge of all doctrine. (:
I do not say such stuff.
We all have some sembelence of truth.
but not all have walked down the same path with it.
I have not had this information for very long but it
was very inlighting for me when I did get it.
It sure fits the Bible passages about "THE RAPTURE"
that other ideas do not seem to stand up to.
Lots of people have beliefs and all claim to be
getting them from the Holy Spirit and yet, many
disagree. So this claim means nothing to me.
Scripture is the bottom line and the ruler by
which we measure all doctrine.
YEs you are ever so right "the disagree"
There are varying degrees of belief and there are varying
degrees of how deeply people understand Sripture and apply
it to the big picture of knowledge of Scripture.
Some will get into it far deeper then most in the faith.
Some are very wishy washey and ride the waves as they come from
other people.
Some believe nothing and the wise will take a better observation
post to learn the deeper meanings of His written Word.
You may see a couple of things in there.
One. Mary M, received her reward for Washing the feet of Jesus, the only
one that did. She was choosen to be the fist building block of the New Bride
of the Lamb Church.
I see no such thing and it certainly does not say that.
If you think it does, then which verse? :)
Verse 16 When she realized she was talking to the one person she
washed the feet of and did not even recognize him until he
made it known to her who he was by calling her name like he
always did.
The 2 on the road to Emmaus did not recognize Him either until
he let it be know who He was and they too had been with him before
he was Crucified.
Luke 24.
For some reason neither did the 12 recognize Him at first.
Two, You may see that she was in raptured by recognizing The Lord that she loved
so dearly for so long in his 3 and a half years of minustry, that she was a part of,
But here she is not recognizing Him until he said her name.
Yes she was "RAPTURED" right then and there in the twinkling of the eye when
she did recognize it was Him that she was talking to
Can you define, exactly and without being vague
(not to say that you would intentionally be so),
what you believe it means to be "raptured"?
Sure "The Rapture" is the very second a soul come into the wrelms of
belief in the Creator Lord God!
Btw, were you formerly known as, "Misty of the mist"?
No comment on that
but I do know him.
He is my Brother in the faith and part of the Cloud of witnesses
That The Lord has blessed to share a deeper meaning of The Written
Word. Aka the Mist.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Azaliah" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
10 Nov 2006 08:12:05 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:55:23 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lpo3l25d00r4rnje2tvqgjmlbf60l2p3an@4ax.com...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 03:11:24 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
For example, Pre-millennialism is itself divided into major and minor camps, and perhaps the
major variations concern the doctrine of "the rapture." The doctrine of "Rapture" is itself
divided into three versions: Pre-trib, Mid-trib and Post-trib. The critical observer will
soon
perceive that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true.
I may have to exclued "Mid-tib, for the Church was taken out of the way
for the Great Trib to be fulfilled and was brought back right as soon
as the time of the GT was over.
Huh? Can you expound on this, please?
Sure I can but any one that wants to understand the Bible Prophesies
needs to learn some of it characteristics, or they will remain "UNUNDERSTANDABLE"!
You know like Timelines.
Realizing prophecy code Keys.
Opening ones heart to some otherwise little known concepts and precept
about it or what is really going on it most of the prophesies.
Take for instance the "RAPTURE" thing.
It is not really as deep and secret as the modern day bible thumpers
are trying to make it out to be.
There is no making people dissapere up off of the face of the earth with
His Second coming.
It is only a matter of starting to believe in Jesus Christ and Him being
The living Word of God, AKA the Creator God and Lord of all
creation.
There were not very many Souls that were to come into Belief all
during the Dark ages or what the real Christian can gleen as the Great
Tribulation period.
Therefore People coming into belief in Jesus Christ went on
from Resurrection to when "THE MAN OF SIN" was revieled.
From then to when that "MAN OF SIN" received the "deadly wound.
not very many came into belief except during the end of the GT
that God shortened or there would be no human life left in the world.
The from that time to today Souls again were added to the real true
Christian Church.
Oh by the way When one is added to the true Christian Church is what
is called "the rapture".
This is about as much as I will give at this time to see how you all
receive the message.
I receive the message in confusion. Let me be honest here.
It sounds like you are intentionally trying to make it sound
all mystical like. I was looking for a clear simple statement
about it. One need not even be born again, to have
someone state what they believe. And all I asked about,
was what you meant when you said that the church was
already raptured just before the "Great Trib" and then
put back again.
You also seem to be stating that the "Great Trib" was
the "Dark Ages", which you gave no definition, nor
time line for.
Why not make this simple? It seems to me that you're saying
that if someone doesn't buy into your "super mystical" way of
stating things, that they just don't have the Spirit.
The truth is, anyone who claims to be born again, should be
able to expound on their beliefs, in a clear, simple and
concise way. The Apostles did not run around talking in
"secret spirit code" to those they sought to convert.
See below.
John 20:10-18,
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As
she
wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus'
body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At
this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was
Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me
where
you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
See here in a twinkling of the eye Mary was Raptured into the Christian Chuch.
You have not even explained what you think "raptured" means
and that is what I asked you nicely to do.
See below.
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to
my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your
God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told
them
that he had said these things to her.
NIV
if you look at the above with an open mind and the Spirit of Truth.
This is where I object. What you're saying is,
that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't
have "the Spirit of Truth" and thus, set yourself
up as the judge of all doctrine. (:
I do not say such stuff.
You did say such stuff. You may not have meant to,
but that is the conclusion that your statement logically
leads to. You're saying that if one has "the Spirit of Truth"
that they will end up agreeing with you and that means
logically, that you are implying that if one doesn't agree
with you, that they don't have "the Spirit of Truth".
Do you not see this? :)
We all have some sembelence of truth.
but not all have walked down the same path with it.
I have not had this information for very long but it
was very inlighting for me when I did get it.
It sure fits the Bible passages about "THE RAPTURE"
that other ideas do not seem to stand up to.
I do not know what you consider to be "Bible passages
about the Rapture". I cannot read your mind. :)
Lots of people have beliefs and all claim to be
getting them from the Holy Spirit and yet, many
disagree. So this claim means nothing to me.
Scripture is the bottom line and the ruler by
which we measure all doctrine.
YEs you are ever so right "the disagree"
There are varying degrees of belief and there are varying
degrees of how deeply people understand Sripture and apply
it to the big picture of knowledge of Scripture.
Some will get into it far deeper then most in the faith.
Some are very wishy washey and ride the waves as they come from
other people.
Some believe nothing and the wise will take a better observation
post to learn the deeper meanings of His written Word.
And some just have an ego issue and think they hold
the truth and don't. :)
You may see a couple of things in there.
One. Mary M, received her reward for Washing the feet of Jesus, the only
one that did. She was choosen to be the fist building block of the New Bride
of the Lamb Church.
I see no such thing and it certainly does not say that.
If you think it does, then which verse? :)
Verse 16 When she realized she was talking to the one person she
washed the feet of and did not even recognize him until he
made it known to her who he was by calling her name like he
always did.
The 2 on the road to Emmaus did not recognize Him either until
he let it be know who He was and they too had been with him before
he was Crucified.
Luke 24.
For some reason neither did the 12 recognize Him at first.
That does not make her, "the first building block of the
church". Especially since that position belongs to Christ.
Ephesians 2:20-22
20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth
unto a holy temple in the Lord:
22) In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation
of God through the Spirit.
"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold,
I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."
- 1 Peter 2:6
Two, You may see that she was in raptured by recognizing The Lord that she loved
so dearly for so long in his 3 and a half years of minustry, that she was a part of,
But here she is not recognizing Him until he said her name.
Yes she was "RAPTURED" right then and there in the twinkling of the eye when
she did recognize it was Him that she was talking to
Can you define, exactly and without being vague
(not to say that you would intentionally be so),
what you believe it means to be "raptured"?
Sure "The Rapture" is the very second a soul come into the wrelms of
belief in the Creator Lord God!
Okay, but this doesn't make sense given your claim that
the church was taken out of the way for the "Great Trib",
which is what most people would call a rapture.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mistylien" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
11 Nov 2006 02:57:18 AM |
|
|
"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a919l29ej2ftdf04sk02kphal18mpl6vl1@4ax.com...
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:55:23 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lpo3l25d00r4rnje2tvqgjmlbf60l2p3an@4ax.com...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 03:11:24 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
For example, Pre-millennialism is itself divided into major and minor camps, and perhaps
the
major variations concern the doctrine of "the rapture." The doctrine of "Rapture" is
itself
divided into three versions: Pre-trib, Mid-trib and Post-trib. The critical observer will
soon
perceive that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true.
I may have to exclued "Mid-tib, for the Church was taken out of the way
for the Great Trib to be fulfilled and was brought back right as soon
as the time of the GT was over.
Huh? Can you expound on this, please?
Sure I can but any one that wants to understand the Bible Prophesies
needs to learn some of it characteristics, or they will remain "UNUNDERSTANDABLE"!
You know like Timelines.
Realizing prophecy code Keys.
Opening ones heart to some otherwise little known concepts and precept
about it or what is really going on it most of the prophesies.
Take for instance the "RAPTURE" thing.
It is not really as deep and secret as the modern day bible thumpers
are trying to make it out to be.
There is no making people dissapere up off of the face of the earth with
His Second coming.
It is only a matter of starting to believe in Jesus Christ and Him being
The living Word of God, AKA the Creator God and Lord of all
creation.
There were not very many Souls that were to come into Belief all
during the Dark ages or what the real Christian can gleen as the Great
Tribulation period.
Therefore People coming into belief in Jesus Christ went on
from Resurrection to when "THE MAN OF SIN" was revieled.
From then to when that "MAN OF SIN" received the "deadly wound.
not very many came into belief except during the end of the GT
that God shortened or there would be no human life left in the world.
The from that time to today Souls again were added to the real true
Christian Church.
Oh by the way When one is added to the true Christian Church is what
is called "the rapture".
This is about as much as I will give at this time to see how you all
receive the message.
I receive the message in confusion. Let me be honest here.
It sounds like you are intentionally trying to make it sound
all mystical like. I was looking for a clear simple statement
about it. One need not even be born again, to have
someone state what they believe. And all I asked about,
was what you meant when you said that the church was
already raptured just before the "Great Trib" and then
put back again.
No you do not need to be a born again Christian to learn what
I am trying to show you all, that if you want to know the bible you
have to let it interprert itself,
The Church being Raptured is an on going Prophecy of Jesus
adding more and more souls (believers) to his Church every day
but not taking it out of the world as is some belief of the
Rapture.
Now during the 1260 years of the Great Tribulation God protected
The Church by putting it some place where satan could not get at
it, it says in a place protected by God.
well see Revelation 12 for that scienario.
However God did shortten the Great Tribulation or no flesh would
have been left in all the world.
It is kind of mystiacl if you do not know how to interpret the
Bible prophesies.
But what I am telling you is what I have been taught from the
Bible and you do not have to make all the protesting arguements
I made before I finally came to accept how it all works to better
understand it.
You also seem to be stating that the "Great Trib" was
the "Dark Ages", which you gave no definition, nor
time line for.
Here is the timeline. From the time the "MAN OF SIN"
revealed himself to when the man of sin received his deadly
wound it would be, (now here is several prophetic lengths of time
for it)
she might be taken care of for *1,260 days*,
be taken care of for *a time, times and half a time*, out of the serpent's reach.
Rev 12, and Daniel 7:25
They will trample on the holy city for *42 months*
rev 11
9For *three and a half days*
Rev 13
exercise his authority for *forty-two months* . . .
9He who has an ear, let him hear.
Why not make this simple? It seems to me that you're saying
that if someone doesn't buy into your "super mystical" way of
stating things, that they just don't have the Spirit.
No not really I am just lookng for some one that is more interested
in learning how it all works, Under a better understanding and bibl
prof of how it all comes to be if it has been already
fulfilled some time in the last 2,000 years.
The truth is, anyone who claims to be born again, should be
able to expound on their beliefs, in a clear, simple and
concise way. The Apostles did not run around talking in
"secret spirit code" to those they sought to convert.
No they did not but Jesus did.
I am not trying to be Jesus here but I work under great fear
of the Lord that I may not be doing it correctly.
I sure do seem to get a lot of rejection from most if I am not
talking to them face to face.
So I have to be careful how I talk even to you as not to
scare you off by letting the Bible interpret itself.
If you have a few spacific Questions maybe we can have some
dialoge.
I am not that hard to get along with no mater what your religious persuasion is.
See below.
John 20:10-18,
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As
she
wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus'
body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him."
14At
this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was
Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me
where
you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
See here in a twinkling of the eye Mary was Raptured into the Christian Chuch.
You have not even explained what you think "raptured" means
and that is what I asked you nicely to do.
Raptue is when one accepts and believes that Jesus is alive and has done
and is doing just what the bible says he is doing and has done.
When one becomes a real Believer He or she goes through a really strange,
change and may even break out in laughter for no reason at all. or
throw up their hands in some kind of "OH LORD YES IT IS TRUE"
kind of activities.
See below.
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead
to
my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your
God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told
them
that he had said these things to her.
NIV
if you look at the above with an open mind and the Spirit of Truth.
This is where I object. What you're saying is,
that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't
have "the Spirit of Truth" and thus, set yourself
up as the judge of all doctrine. (:
I do not say such stuff.
You did say such stuff. You may not have meant to,
but that is the conclusion that your statement logically
leads to. You're saying that if one has "the Spirit of Truth"
that they will end up agreeing with you and that means
logically, that you are implying that if one doesn't agree
with you, that they don't have "the Spirit of Truth".
Do you not see this? :)
Well maybe "spirit if truth" is not the right words to use.
but I do know if some one does see the light they
will be a changed person, and some of what I am trying to
show may be received a bit faster.
We all have some sembelence of truth.
but not all have walked down the same path with it.
I have not had this information for very long but it
was very inlighting for me when I did get it.
It sure fits the Bible passages about "THE RAPTURE"
that other ideas do not seem to stand up to.
I do not know what you consider to be "Bible passages
about the Rapture". I cannot read your mind. :)
Mary was inraptured as shown in verse 16 above when
she finally recognized her dear friend was in deed alive
and talking to her as she believed very infaticly He had
died on the cross and that there would be now way
he could be there talking to her.
That made a very big change in her right then and there
in the twinkling of the eye it was so fast.
and other passages say that is how fast it will happen.
and there it did happen that fast.
Lots of people have beliefs and all claim to be
getting them from the Holy Spirit and yet, many
disagree. So this claim means nothing to me.
Scripture is the bottom line and the ruler by
which we measure all doctrine.
YEs you are ever so right "the disagree"
There are varying degrees of belief and there are varying
degrees of how deeply people understand Sripture and apply
it to the big picture of knowledge of Scripture.
Some will get into it far deeper then most in the faith.
Some are very wishy washey and ride the waves as they come from
other people.
Some believe nothing and the wise will take a better observation
post to learn the deeper meanings of His written Word.
And some just have an ego issue and think they hold
the truth and don't. :)
Now see there you are rejecting even before you understand
what is being shown to you.
How come you are being so accusing??
Verse 16 When she realized she was talking to the one person she
washed the feet of and did not even recognize him until he
made it known to her who he was by calling her name like he
always did.
The 2 on the road to Emmaus did not recognize Him either until
he let it be know who He was and they too had been with him before
he was Crucified.
Luke 24.
For some reason neither did the 12 recognize Him at first.
That does not make her, "the first building block of the
church". Especially since that position belongs to Christ.
JEsus is the "Builder" of His new nation that he has authority
to do so after he defeated Death.
That way he can choose his new Bride as He has been doing
for the last 2,000 years.
Ephesians 2:20-22
20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth
unto a holy temple in the Lord:
22) In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation
of God through the Spirit.
"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold,
I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."
- 1 Peter 2:6
Yes but those passages are after his Resurrection.
even while his church was being built and spreadig over the
entire world.
Two, You may see that she was in raptured by recognizing The Lord that she loved
so dearly for so long in his 3 and a half years of minustry, that she was a part of,
But here she is not recognizing Him until he said her name.
Yes she was "RAPTURED" right then and there in the twinkling of the eye when
she did recognize it was Him that she was talking to
Can you define, exactly and without being vague
(not to say that you would intentionally be so),
what you believe it means to be "raptured"?
Sure "The Rapture" is the very second a soul come into the wrelms of
belief in the Creator Lord God!
Okay, but this doesn't make sense given your claim that
the church was taken out of the way for the "Great Trib",
which is what most people would call a rapture.
Oh I agree with you there because that Rapture scienario is not
correct and does not fit all the passages about it.
But if you Look at Rev 12 you will see God temporarily took
and protected the woman (church) so it would not get distroyed
during the GT
See what you think when you read it ok.
There is a lot in just that one chapter besides protecting the woman
God bless you all,
M,
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Azaliah" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
11 Nov 2006 08:18:12 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:57:18 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
The Church being Raptured is an on going Prophecy of Jesus
adding more and more souls (believers) to his Church every day
but not taking it out of the world as is some belief of the
Rapture.
Now during the 1260 years of the Great Tribulation God protected
The Church by putting it some place where satan could not get at
it, it says in a place protected by God.
well see Revelation 12 for that scienario.
Actually, it doesn't say "years". It says, "days". You are
assuming that they are years.
However God did shortten the Great Tribulation or no flesh would
have been left in all the world.
You assume that there was 1260 years of "Great Tribulation".
It is kind of mystiacl if you do not know how to interpret the
Bible prophesies.
But what I am telling you is what I have been taught from the
Bible and you do not have to make all the protesting arguements
I made before I finally came to accept how it all works to better
understand it.
This is your claim. But so does everyone make that claim
(no offense).
You also seem to be stating that the "Great Trib" was
the "Dark Ages", which you gave no definition, nor
time line for.
Here is the timeline. From the time the "MAN OF SIN"
revealed himself to when the man of sin received his deadly
wound it would be, (now here is several prophetic lengths of time
for it)
she might be taken care of for *1,260 days*,
be taken care of for *a time, times and half a time*, out of the serpent's reach.
Rev 12, and Daniel 7:25
They will trample on the holy city for *42 months*
rev 11
9For *three and a half days*
Rev 13
exercise his authority for *forty-two months* . . .
9He who has an ear, let him hear.
Okay, but what is your point? Seriously.
You see, I believe that these things have already been
fulfilled. But when you say, "the man of sin", what are
you referring to? One who has lived? Has yet to live?
What about the "trampling of the holy city"? Where do
you place these events? Future? Past?
Why not make this simple? It seems to me that you're saying
that if someone doesn't buy into your "super mystical" way of
stating things, that they just don't have the Spirit.
No not really I am just lookng for some one that is more interested
in learning how it all works, Under a better understanding and bibl
prof of how it all comes to be if it has been already
fulfilled some time in the last 2,000 years.
I believe it was fulfilled in the 1st century.
The truth is, anyone who claims to be born again, should be
able to expound on their beliefs, in a clear, simple and
concise way. The Apostles did not run around talking in
"secret spirit code" to those they sought to convert.
No they did not but Jesus did.
You are not Jesus and obviously, they recognized that
neither were they. :) So let's not apply a different set
of rules to us, than the Apostles themselves recognized.
I am not trying to be Jesus here but I work under great fear
of the Lord that I may not be doing it correctly.
I sure do seem to get a lot of rejection from most if I am not
talking to them face to face.
So I have to be careful how I talk even to you as not to
scare you off by letting the Bible interpret itself.
But you haven't "let the Bible interpret itself". And this is
another thing that people claim to do and never seem to do.
You have told me about a few things that the Bible doesn't
actually say. So does almost everyone else. And if that's
how you interpret it, okay. But I do not see where you are,
"letting the Bible interpret itself".
If you have a few spacific Questions maybe we can have some
dialoge.
I've asked specific questions. No offense, but it took me
two messages to get some answers, which aren't even yet
that clear. :)
See here in a twinkling of the eye Mary was Raptured into the Christian Chuch.
You have not even explained what you think "raptured" means
and that is what I asked you nicely to do.
Raptue is when one accepts and believes that Jesus is alive and has done
and is doing just what the bible says he is doing and has done.
I don't call that a rapture. And Jesus called it being
"born again". I think your term is going to cause confusion.
There are varying degrees of belief and there are varying
degrees of how deeply people understand Sripture and apply
it to the big picture of knowledge of Scripture.
Some will get into it far deeper then most in the faith.
Some are very wishy washey and ride the waves as they come from
other people.
Some believe nothing and the wise will take a better observation
post to learn the deeper meanings of His written Word.
And some just have an ego issue and think they hold
the truth and don't. :)
Now see there you are rejecting even before you understand
what is being shown to you.
How come you are being so accusing??
I didn't say you specifically. I am accusing whenever someone
makes those claims though.
Look, the fact is, that everyone makes the same claim and
yet, they all disagree. So I pay absolutely no attention to
the, "I know this by the Spirit" claims that people make and
I dismiss them immediately. They cannot all "know this by
the Spirit" and yet, all disagree, amen?
Verse 16 When she realized she was talking to the one person she
washed the feet of and did not even recognize him until he
made it known to her who he was by calling her name like he
always did.
The 2 on the road to Emmaus did not recognize Him either until
he let it be know who He was and they too had been with him before
he was Crucified.
Luke 24.
For some reason neither did the 12 recognize Him at first.
That does not make her, "the first building block of the
church". Especially since that position belongs to Christ.
JEsus is the "Builder" of His new nation that he has authority
to do so after he defeated Death.
I agree with you in principle, but Jesus is also the chief
cornerstone of the building and therefore, Mary cannot
be "the first building block of the church". That place
is the Lord Jesus'.
That way he can choose his new Bride as He has been doing
for the last 2,000 years.
He does choose His people. Amen.
Ephesians 2:20-22
20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth
unto a holy temple in the Lord:
22) In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation
of God through the Spirit.
"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold,
I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."
- 1 Peter 2:6
Yes but those passages are after his Resurrection.
even while his church was being built and spreadig over the
entire world.
Was He not resurrected when He spoke to Mary?
Of course He was, so your objection is meaningless
(no offense).
Two, You may see that she was in raptured by recognizing The Lord that she loved
so dearly for so long in his 3 and a half years of minustry, that she was a part of,
But here she is not recognizing Him until he said her name.
Yes she was "RAPTURED" right then and there in the twinkling of the eye when
she did recognize it was Him that she was talking to
Can you define, exactly and without being vague
(not to say that you would intentionally be so),
what you believe it means to be "raptured"?
Sure "The Rapture" is the very second a soul come into the wrelms of
belief in the Creator Lord God!
Okay, but this doesn't make sense given your claim that
the church was taken out of the way for the "Great Trib",
which is what most people would call a rapture.
Oh I agree with you there because that Rapture scienario is not
correct and does not fit all the passages about it.
But if you Look at Rev 12 you will see God temporarily took
and protected the woman (church) so it would not get distroyed
during the GT
See what you think when you read it ok.
There is a lot in just that one chapter besides protecting the woman
You think that this is a 1,260 year period. I do not.
I believe they are actual days.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mistylien" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
14 Nov 2006 03:54:57 AM |
|
|
"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:anlbl2hkrilcdrc59vd0lp7oamuf0pokhk@4ax.com...
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:57:18 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
The Church being Raptured is an on going Prophecy of Jesus
adding more and more souls (believers) to his Church every day
but not taking it out of the world as is some belief of the
Rapture.
Now during the 1260 years of the Great Tribulation God protected
The Church by putting it some place where satan could not get at
it, it says in a place protected by God.
well see Revelation 12 for that scienario.
Actually, it doesn't say "years". It says, "days". You are
assuming that they are years.
No it does not say years; however I did to show you it is possible when
you use the Key code from the Old Testament (Wit) to apply it to prophecy
as you read it.
So you see I am not assuming anything here I am trying to show how it works
when applied.
However God did shortten the Great Tribulation or no flesh would
have been left in all the world.
You assume that there was 1260 years of "Great Tribulation".
Well I would not say I assume but that I am applying the Key Codes
From:
Numbers 14:43
and,
Ezekiel 4:4-6.
The Day for a year Key in those prophesies as God is making them.
God will not keep giving that key every time He make a prophecy.
He expects the wise to gleen that from His Word.
It is kind of mystiacl if you do not know how to interpret the
Bible prophesies.
But what I am telling you is what I have been taught from the
Bible and you do not have to make all the protesting arguements
I made before I finally came to accept how it all works to better
understand it.
This is your claim. But so does everyone make that claim
(no offense).
I do not see very many presenting the same arguement I am giving.
OR I would be in there conferming they got it right according to Old
Testament Words.
You also seem to be stating that the "Great Trib" was
the "Dark Ages", which you gave no definition, nor
time line for.
Here is the timeline. From the time the "MAN OF SIN"
revealed himself to when the man of sin received his deadly
wound it would be, (now here is several prophetic lengths of time
for it)
she might be taken care of for *1,260 days*,
be taken care of for *a time, times and half a time*, out of the serpent's reach.
Rev 12, and Daniel 7:25
They will trample on the holy city for *42 months*
rev 11
9For *three and a half days*
Rev 13
exercise his authority for *forty-two months* . . .
9He who has an ear, let him hear.
Okay, but what is your point? Seriously.
My point is when you or most anyone else reads that you miss
That they are all the same length of time, Prophetic time that is.
So if it is prophetic time it has to be delt with as Prophetic times.
You see, I believe that these things have already been
fulfilled. But when you say, "the man of sin", what are
you referring to? One who has lived? Has yet to live?
What about the "trampling of the holy city"? Where do
you place these events? Future? Past?
When you read it put your self back to 95 AD. and yes you may well
see most of those prophesies have been fulfilled because They have a
Starting date.
The Man of Sin revealed himself as the Blasphamous person that
sat on the Throne of Rome and declaired himself as the Papa or
the First pope that took the place of the Son of God. 538 AD.
start of the Great Tribulation Prophecy.
I believe his name was and I could be wrong on this one "Silvirus"
because he was in Papal office at the time of 538 AD.
Thus the "PAPACY WAS BORN"
The Man of Sin is an office held my a successon of people all during
the Dark ages of History and indeed Cause the Dark ages. because not
very much learning went on all during that 1260 year piriod of History.
Other then Martin Luthar translationg the bible into language the common
people could read and the invention of the printing press so one copy was
like the other. Yes he did live yes some one else took his place or her place
as history shows one at least was a woman.
It is the office of the Papacy so yes it lives now and will tomorrow too for
a while.
The Great Tribulation has been fulfilled it ended IN 1798
can you do the math. 1798 minus 538????
Why not make this simple? It seems to me that you're saying
that if someone doesn't buy into your "super mystical" way of
stating things, that they just don't have the Spirit.
No not really I am just lookng for some one that is more interested
in learning how it all works, Under a better understanding and biblical
prof of how it all comes to be if it has been already
fulfilled some time in the last 2,000 years.
I believe it was fulfilled in the 1st century.
Ok do you have a starting date?
and an ending date?
And a time frame, From Bible Prophecy That predicts it at
That time?
The truth is, anyone who claims to be born again, should be
able to expound on their beliefs, in a clear, simple and
concise way. The Apostles did not run around talking in
"secret spirit code" to those they sought to convert.
No they did not but Jesus did.
You are not Jesus and obviously, they recognized that
neither were they. :) So let's not apply a different set
of rules to us, than the Apostles themselves recognized.
I shall not try to be any big shot here OK?
But with the kind of information I have to present, It is
very hard to get anyones attention to even take an objectionable
look at it this way.
But I also understand that for only about one tenth of one tenth
will ever accept Jesus Christ for Who He really is.
It took me like 38 years to realize the Bible is Really some
kind of special Works of God.
But when I did ask The Lord top help me on this matter the whole
world fried and I too was enlightened to a lot better understanding
of what The Bible is Saying.
I did not do it on my own though I had many teachers but only like
2 or 3 were honest to get my attention.
I am not trying to be Jesus here but I work under great fear
of the Lord that I may not be doing it correctly.
I sure do seem to get a lot of rejection from most if I am not
talking to them face to face.
So I have to be careful how I talk even to you as not to
scare you off by letting the Bible interpret itself.
But you haven't "let the Bible interpret itself". And this is
another thing that people claim to do and never seem to do.
I am if given a chance More and more will come out if we are
just a bit patient with one another.
I will be showing you how it all fits together and From the bible
itself.
You have told me about a few things that the Bible doesn't
actually say. So does almost everyone else. And if that's
how you interpret it, okay. But I do not see where you are,
"letting the Bible interpret itself".
I will, I will as the questions come I hope to show where I got
any and all of my information from.
but I must tell you I am only working on like 90 percent accuracy.
IN other words I do not know it all and thosse places where I do
not have the right information I will tell you so.
If you have a few spacific Questions maybe we can have some
dialoge.
I've asked specific questions. No offense, but it took me
two messages to get some answers, which aren't even yet
that clear. :)
I understand that and I hope you realize I am not a college professor here.
However if you do not get the answer you are looking for, Just
ask the question again a different way so I may answer it better and
with more clairity.
See here in a twinkling of the eye Mary was Raptured into the Christian Chuch.
You have not even explained what you think "raptured" means
and that is what I asked you nicely to do.
Raptue is when one accepts and believes that Jesus is alive and has done
and is doing just what the bible says he is doing and has done.
I don't call that a rapture. And Jesus called it being
"born again". I think your term is going to cause confusion.
Yes Being Born again is another fraze for it.
Being born is a big deal.
Being Born again is even bigger deal to the nervous system of
Realization. OHHHHHH Yessssssssssssssss. it is.
snip old posts>
Now see there you are rejecting even before you understand
what is being shown to you.
How come you are being so accusing??
I didn't say you specifically. I am accusing whenever someone
makes those claims though.
I see but I intend to back them up.
I know you have walked down a path simmilar to what I went down.
However I stopped and questioned what they were feeding me and
I did not see it as the way 'They" clamimed because there were way
too many side tracks to what the world was telling me.
In other words the wold will lie all the time.
Look, the fact is, that everyone makes the same claim and
yet, they all disagree. So I pay absolutely no attention to
the, "I know this by the Spirit" claims that people make and
I dismiss them immediately. They cannot all "know this by
the Spirit" and yet, all disagree, amen?
I know that by the spirit claim, is suppose to give big authority.
but if by man then it is a lot easier to dismiss as phoney.
For it is by the Spirit of truth that we come to know anything.
Snip>
JEsus is the "Builder" of His new nation that he has authority
to do so after he defeated Death.
I agree with you in principle, but Jesus is also the chief
cornerstone of the building and therefore, Mary cannot
be "the first building block of the church". That place
is the Lord Jesus'.
WEll now that is the old what came first thing.
the building needs a lot of building stones to hold up the chief
corner stone. or cap stone if you know the difference what that
may mean.
That way he can choose his new Bride as He has been doing
for the last 2,000 years.
He does choose His people. Amen.
YEs and some people think they choose Him.
Ephesians 2:20-22
20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth
unto a holy temple in the Lord:
22) In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation
of God through the Spirit.
"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold,
I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."
- 1 Peter 2:6
Yes but those passages are after his Resurrection.
even while his church was being built and spreadig over the
entire world.
Was He not resurrected when He spoke to Mary?
Of course He was, so your objection is meaningless
(no offense).
YEs he was freshly Ressuected from the grave by only hours or even
maybe minutes.
but Right away he started to build his Church and Mary was the first one
choosen that morning and there is more meaning to that then her just
being the first one.
snip>
Okay, but this doesn't make sense given your claim that
the church was taken out of the way for the "Great Trib",
which is what most people would call a rapture.
Oh I agree with you there because that Rapture scienario is not
correct and does not fit all the passages about it.
But if you Look at Rev 12 you will see God temporarily took
and protected the woman (church) so it would not get distroyed
during the GT
See what you think when you read it ok.
There is a lot in just that one chapter besides protecting the woman
You think that this is a 1,260 year period. I do not.
I believe they are actual days.
NO it is not days but it is "Prophetic Days" and as such we need to
treat them as prophetic and apply the keys to it and that is
why we come up with the " LITERAL YEARS".
We also call that expanding the Prophecy.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
.
Amen Let Him be truth and all men liars.
M,
.
|
|
|
| User: "Azaliah" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
14 Nov 2006 07:31:26 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 03:54:57 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:anlbl2hkrilcdrc59vd0lp7oamuf0pokhk@4ax.com...
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:57:18 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Mistylien" <yardholler@charter.net> shouted thusly:
The Church being Raptured is an on going Prophecy of Jesus
adding more and more souls (believers) to his Church every day
but not taking it out of the world as is some belief of the
Rapture.
Now during the 1260 years of the Great Tribulation God protected
The Church by putting it some place where satan could not get at
it, it says in a place protected by God.
well see Revelation 12 for that scienario.
Actually, it doesn't say "years". It says, "days". You are
assuming that they are years.
No it does not say years; however I did to show you it is possible when
you use the Key code from the Old Testament (Wit) to apply it to prophecy
as you read it.
So you see I am not assuming anything here I am trying to show how it works
when applied.
There is no "key code" that says that every time you run
into days, it means years. In fact, there are notes about
3.5 years and 1260 days, divided by the Jewish year of
350 days, works out to 3.5 years. Thus, it makes more
sense to think of them as days.
However God did shortten the Great Tribulation or no flesh would
have been left in all the world.
You assume that there was 1260 years of "Great Tribulation".
Well I would not say I assume but that I am applying the Key Codes
From:
Numbers 14:43
and,
Ezekiel 4:4-6.
The Day for a year Key in those prophesies as God is making them.
God will not keep giving that key every time He make a prophecy.
He expects the wise to gleen that from His Word.
These are not "key codes". You ave provided an example
from Scripture od when God used days to represent years.
That does not mean that every time days are cited, that it
means years. That is an assumption you are making.
It is kind of mystiacl if you do not know how to interpret the
Bible prophesies.
But what I am telling you is what I have been taught from the
Bible and you do not have to make all the protesting arguements
I made before I finally came to accept how it all works to better
understand it.
This is your claim. But so does everyone make that claim
(no offense).
I do not see very many presenting the same arguement I am giving.
OR I would be in there conferming they got it right according to Old
Testament Words.
Irrelevant. Everyone claims that their doctrine comes from
the Bible and that they learned what they learned from the
Bible, regardless of what that doctrine is. You are assuming
that your doctrine is correct and then telling me that because
it's unusual, that means that it's right. That doesn't make
sense and besides this, it isn't unusual at all. Lots of
people make claims about converting days into years.
You also seem to be stating that the "Great Trib" was
the "Dark Ages", which you gave no definition, nor
time line for.
Here is the timeline. From the time the "MAN OF SIN"
revealed himself to when the man of sin received his deadly
wound it would be, (now here is several prophetic lengths of time
for it)
she might be taken care of for *1,260 days*,
be taken care of for *a time, times and half a time*, out of the serpent's reach.
Rev 12, and Daniel 7:25
They will trample on the holy city for *42 months*
rev 11
9For *three and a half days*
Rev 13
exercise his authority for *forty-two months* . . .
9He who has an ear, let him hear.
Okay, but what is your point? Seriously.
My point is when you or most anyone else reads that you miss
That they are all the same length of time, Prophetic time that is.
So if it is prophetic time it has to be delt with as Prophetic times.
You are claiming that it is "prophetic time". But you base
that on nothing more than your desire for it to be prophetic
time. But in the example that you gave, God clearly stated
that days equaled years. With the 1260 days, we do not
see that. Nor do we read where God said, "And make sure
to use this as a rule for all time statements in the Bible",
in Ezekiel.
The fact is, that if we're going to use your rule and apply it
consistently, we end up with prophecies that are millions of
years off.
You see, I believe that these things have already been
fulfilled. But when you say, "the man of sin", what are
you referring to? One who has lived? Has yet to live?
What about the "trampling of the holy city"? Where do
you place these events? Future? Past?
When you read it put your self back to 95 AD. and yes you may well
see most of those prophesies have been fulfilled because They have a
Starting date.
Revelation was not written in 95 AD, but even if it was,
it starts and ends by stating that the events would be
happening "soon", "quickly", etc.. Almost 2,000 years,
is not "quickly".
However, Revelation was written before 70 AD. Most
likely in the 60's AD.
The Man of Sin revealed himself as the Blasphamous person that
sat on the Throne of Rome and declaired himself as the Papa or
the First pope that took the place of the Son of God. 538 AD.
start of the Great Tribulation Prophecy.
I believe his name was and I could be wrong on this one "Silvirus"
because he was in Papal office at the time of 538 AD.
Thus the "PAPACY WAS BORN"
The Man of Sin is an office held my a successon of people all during
the Dark ages of History and indeed Cause the Dark ages. because not
very much learning went on all during that 1260 year piriod of History.
Other then Martin Luthar translationg the bible into language the common
people could read and the invention of the printing press so one copy was
like the other. Yes he did live yes some one else took his place or her place
as history shows one at least was a woman.
It is the office of the Papacy so yes it lives now and will tomorrow too for
a while.
You are assuming that the RCC is the fulfillment of
the prophecy.
The Great Tribulation has been fulfilled it ended IN 1798
can you do the math. 1798 minus 538????
You claim that there was a Great Tribulation that lasted
1260 years. You make assumptions and then decide
that I'm supposed to think that it's accurate.
Lots of people play with dates like that. So what?
That doesn't make it accurate.
Why not make this simple? It seems to me that you're saying
that if someone doesn't buy into your "super mystical" way of
stating things, that they just don't have the Spirit.
No not really I am just lookng for some one that is more interested
in learning how it all works, Under a better understanding and biblical
prof of how it all comes to be if it has been already
fulfilled some time in the last 2,000 years.
I believe it was fulfilled in the 1st century.
Ok do you have a starting date?
and an ending date?
And a time frame, From Bible Prophecy That predicts it at
That time?
The Bible clearly shows that when Jerusalem was desolated,
all things written were fulfilled. See Luke 21:20-22. That
happened in 67-70 AD and as every Rabbi will agree,
Biblical Judaism ended in 70 AD.
The truth is, anyone who claims to be born again, should be
able to expound on their beliefs, in a clear, simple and
concise way. The Apostles did not run around talking in
"secret spirit code" to those they sought to convert.
No they did not but Jesus did.
You are not Jesus and obviously, they recognized that
neither were they. :) So let's not apply a different set
of rules to us, than the Apostles themselves recognized.
I shall not try to be any big shot here OK?
But with the kind of information I have to present, It is
very hard to get anyones attention to even take an objectionable
look at it this way.
But I also understand that for only about one tenth of one tenth
will ever accept Jesus Christ for Who He really is.
It took me like 38 years to realize the Bible is Really some
kind of special Works of God.
But when I did ask The Lord top help me on this matter the whole
world fried and I too was enlightened to a lot better understanding
of what The Bible is Saying.
I did not do it on my own though I had many teachers but only like
2 or 3 were honest to get my attention.
Many people make these same types of claims.
No offense, but as I said, they do not impress me
and I do not even consider them. We live in a
world full of people claiming to know what the
Bible says and to have special revelation from God
on the meaning of various Scriptures.
I am not trying to be Jesus here but I work under great fear
of the Lord that I may not be doing it correctly.
I sure do seem to get a lot of rejection from most if I am not
talking to them face to face.
So I have to be careful how I talk even to you as not to
scare you off by letting the Bible interpret itself.
But you haven't "let the Bible interpret itself". And this is
another thing that people claim to do and never seem to do.
I am if given a chance More and more will come out if we are
just a bit patient with one another.
I will be showing you how it all fits together and From the bible
itself.
You already are avoiding doing what you claim you do.
Nowhere does the Bible say "Stretch Revelation out over
thousands of years" and nowhere does it say, "The Roman
Catholic Church", so no, you are not "letting it interpret
itself". You are adding your own doctrine to it.
When looking for prophecy to be fulfilled, we are to look at
the very first fulfillment. Yet people skip right over what
the OT and Jesus said and try to apply "God time" to some
very simple time statements, even though God does not
have "time" and operates outside of time, which means
that any time statements are according to man's time,
since man is the only one in the equation that it bound
by time.
But people claim that God has "1,000 year days" and that
"soon = thousands of years", etc.. (:
You have told me about a few things that the Bible doesn't
actually say. So does almost everyone else. And if that's
how you interpret it, okay. But I do not see where you are,
"letting the Bible interpret itself".
I will, I will as the questions come I hope to show where I got
any and all of my information from.
but I must tell you I am only working on like 90 percent accuracy.
IN other words I do not know it all and thosse places where I do
not have the right information I will tell you so.
It is hard to convince people that you are letting the Bible
interpret itself, when you start out by doing the opposite.
If you have a few spacific Questions maybe we can have some
dialoge.
I've asked specific questions. No offense, but it took me
two messages to get some answers, which aren't even yet
that clear. :)
I understand that and I hope you realize I am not a college professor here.
I do understand that. But why don't you stop trying to sound
so "Biblically mystical" and just answer like an ordinary Joe
on the street. That's what Paul would have done...
Acts 17:22-23
22) Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said,
Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too
superstitious.
23) For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found
an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I
unto you.
However if you do not get the answer you are looking for, Just
ask the question again a different way so I may answer it better and
with more clairity.
With all due respect, I think I was pretty clear. :)
See here in a twinkling of the eye Mary was Raptured into the Christian Chuch.
You have not even explained what you think "raptured" means
and that is what I asked you nicely to do.
Raptue is when one accepts and believes that Jesus is alive and has done
and is doing just what the bible says he is doing and has done.
I don't call that a rapture. And Jesus called it being
"born again". I think your term is going to cause confusion.
Yes Being Born again is another fraze for it.
It's not just "another phrase for it". It's what Jesus
called it. As far as I'm concerned, He trumps you. :)
Look, the fact is, that everyone makes the same claim and
yet, they all disagree. So I pay absolutely no attention to
the, "I know this by the Spirit" claims that people make and
I dismiss them immediately. They cannot all "know this by
the Spirit" and yet, all disagree, amen?
I know that by the spirit claim, is suppose to give big authority.
but if by man then it is a lot easier to dismiss as phoney.
For it is by the Spirit of truth that we come to know anything.
Don't try to convince me of credentials. The fact is,
that either what you're saying is true, or it isn't and
it will stand on its own Biblical merits, if it is true.
JEsus is the "Builder" of His new nation that he has authority
to do so after he defeated Death.
I agree with you in principle, but Jesus is also the chief
cornerstone of the building and therefore, Mary cannot
be "the first building block of the church". That place
is the Lord Jesus'.
WEll now that is the old what came first thing.
No, it is Scripture and it shows that you are wrong.
And frankly, if you wish to impress me, then have
the integrity to admit when you're wrong.
the building needs a lot of building stones to hold up the chief
corner stone. or cap stone if you know the difference what that
may mean.
The corner stone is not the cap stone. The Scripture
says that the church is built UPON this cornerstone
and frankly, the church does not support Jesus.
Jesus supports the church. This Scripture is about
Jesus as the first stone laid down. The corner stone
upon which the entire building is measured and built.
And this comes from an OT prophecy.
"Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I lay
in Zion a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a
precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever
believes will not act hastily." - Isaiah 28:16
Ephesians 2:20-22
20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth
unto a holy temple in the Lord:
22) In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation
of God through the Spirit.
"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold,
I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."
- 1 Peter 2:6
Yes but those passages are after his Resurrection.
even while his church was being built and spreadig over the
entire world.
Was He not resurrected when He spoke to Mary?
Of course He was, so your objection is meaningless
(no offense).
YEs he was freshly Ressuected from the grave by only hours or even
maybe minutes.
but Right away he started to build his Church and Mary was the first one
choosen that morning and there is more meaning to that then her just
being the first one.
The Bible does not say that she was chosen to build
the church upon. Once again, this is an assumption
that you make, that is not found in the text.
Okay, but this doesn't make sense given your claim that
the church was taken out of the way for the "Great Trib",
which is what most people would call a rapture.
Oh I agree with you there because that Rapture scienario is not
correct and does not fit all the passages about it.
But if you Look at Rev 12 you will see God temporarily took
and protected the woman (church) so it would not get distroyed
during the GT
See what you think when you read it ok.
There is a lot in just that one chapter besides protecting the woman
You think that this is a 1,260 year period. I do not.
I believe they are actual days.
NO it is not days but it is "Prophetic Days" and as such we need to
treat them as prophetic and apply the keys to it and that is
why we come up with the " LITERAL YEARS".
You claim that they are days that represent years.
You have not proved that.
We also call that expanding the Prophecy.
Call it what you will. The Scripture gives no indication
that we are to do that there at all.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Randy" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
07 Nov 2006 10:25:49 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:37:23 -0800,
in article <12l2k7mh34jgfbe@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
However, as an example, both A-millennialism and Post-millennialism may,
or may not, include some version of "Preterism."
You are a preterist, Owd, because you think some of the prophecies of
Revelation have been fulfilled (e.g. the "Renaissance" as the
"thousand years" of Revelation 20). Now, I understand some think
you're not really a preterist unless you believe all the prophecies
have been fulfilled, but Gentry, for example, was a preterist who
thought that some of the prophecies in Revelation were yet to be
fulfilled. You're understanding of end time prophecies, and the
timeline of those events, is clearly and demonstrably whacked, Owd.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.
|
|
|
| User: "Azaliah" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
07 Nov 2006 10:40:20 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:25:49 -0600, while bungee jumping,
Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com> shouted thusly:
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:37:23 -0800,
in article <12l2k7mh34jgfbe@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
However, as an example, both A-millennialism and Post-millennialism may,
or may not, include some version of "Preterism."
You are a preterist, Owd, because you think some of the prophecies of
Revelation have been fulfilled (e.g. the "Renaissance" as the
"thousand years" of Revelation 20). Now, I understand some think
you're not really a preterist unless you believe all the prophecies
have been fulfilled, but Gentry, for example, was a preterist who
thought that some of the prophecies in Revelation were yet to be
fulfilled. You're understanding of end time prophecies, and the
timeline of those events, is clearly and demonstrably whacked, Owd.
Actually, people calling themselves something, does not
make them that something. Would you call a Gnostic a
Christian, just because he says he is? I hope not. :)
Thus, Gentry can claim what he likes. "Preter" comes
from the Latin "praeter", which means, "in the past",
or just "past". Thus, it is impossible to claim to be
a Preterist and also claim that something isn't fulfilled.
I.e., To claim that most prophecies have been fulfilled,
but that there are some prophecies that have yet to be
fulfilled, does not make one a Preterist. It makes one
a "Mild Futurist".
Besides this, take a look at Gentry's arguments. He claims
that this or that is in the future, but never makes any real
argument for it. He can go on and on, soundly proving
that something has been fulfilled, but when it comes to
proving that something hasn't been, it's a one or two line
comment that basically just says that it hasn't been,
because he says so. This is not convincing to a reasonable
person, of reasonable intelligence, given the amount of
facts that he presents to show that something has been
fulfilled.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Randy" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
07 Nov 2006 10:36:37 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:37:23 -0800,
in article <12l2k7mh34jgfbe@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
However, as an example, both A-millennialism and Post-millennialism may,
or may not, include some version of "Preterism." And, Preterism is
itself divided into various factions. The millennial doctrines may, or
may not, agree that Christ will physically rule on this earth for a
thousand, literal, years. Even at first glance, the casual observer will
understand that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true --
though all may be false.
While Owd tries to undermine every other interpretation of end time
events, on the basis they do not all perfectly agree with each other,
the idiot fails to deduce that this line of reasoning all the more
undermines his own interpretation. Since he basically thinks he's the
only one who understands Bible prophecy correctly, and has his own,
unique interpretation of these events, his interpretation contradicts
about everything anyone else has ever said about it. This is not to
mention that Owd cannot, to date, show how he drew his interpretation
of Bible prophecy out of the text of the Bible (e.g. he claims the
"Renaissance" was the fulfillment of the "thousand years" of
Revelation 20). Instead, he relies on sophistry, diversion,
confusion, and a strong hope in the abject stupidity of those who may
be reading.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.
|
|
|
| User: "Azaliah" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
07 Nov 2006 10:43:58 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:36:37 -0600, while bungee jumping,
Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com> shouted thusly:
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:37:23 -0800,
in article <12l2k7mh34jgfbe@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
However, as an example, both A-millennialism and Post-millennialism may,
or may not, include some version of "Preterism." And, Preterism is
itself divided into various factions. The millennial doctrines may, or
may not, agree that Christ will physically rule on this earth for a
thousand, literal, years. Even at first glance, the casual observer will
understand that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true --
though all may be false.
While Owd tries to undermine every other interpretation of end time
events, on the basis they do not all perfectly agree with each other,
the idiot fails to deduce that this line of reasoning all the more
undermines his own interpretation.
As I was reading the first part, I was thinking exactly what
you said in the last part of your sentence. <lol>
he relies on sophistry, diversion, confusion, and a strong hope
in the abject stupidity of those who may be reading.
Well, since others team up with him on certain issues,
this only speaks to their stupidity as well, since their
only argument is name calling.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
|
|
|
| User: "Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
08 Nov 2006 05:45:11 PM |
|
|
"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i0o2l2tt6vfeasfkq0v2iqeckkbr2bbi4u@4ax.com...
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:36:37 -0600, while bungee jumping,
Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com> shouted thusly:
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:37:23 -0800,
in article <12l2k7mh34jgfbe@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
However, as an example, both A-millennialism and Post-millennialism may,
or may not, include some version of "Preterism." And, Preterism is
itself divided into various factions. The millennial doctrines may, or
may not, agree that Christ will physically rule on this earth for a
thousand, literal, years. Even at first glance, the casual observer will
understand that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true --
though all may be false.
While Owd tries to undermine every other interpretation of end time
events, on the basis they do not all perfectly agree with each other,
the idiot fails to deduce that this line of reasoning all the more
undermines his own interpretation.
As I was reading the first part, I was thinking exactly what
you said in the last part of your sentence. <lol>
he relies on sophistry, diversion, confusion, and a strong hope
in the abject stupidity of those who may be reading.
Well, since others team up with him on certain issues,
this only speaks to their stupidity as well, since their
only argument is name calling.
Ahh Like calling Randy and Ben pigs? and unsaved?
.
|
|
|
| User: "r m rm@hotmailDOTcom" |
|
| Title: Re: False Doctrine About the Coming of the Lord |
08 Nov 2006 06:03:31 PM |
|
|
"Vic" <someone@home.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gKudnVrc-Kw39s_YRVnyvg@eclipse.net.uk...
"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i0o2l2tt6vfeasfkq0v2iqeckkbr2bbi4u@4ax.com...
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:36:37 -0600, while bungee jumping,
Randy <pulpitfire@gmail.com> shouted thusly:
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:37:23 -0800,
in article <12l2k7mh34jgfbe@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
However, as an example, both A-millennialism and Post-millennialism
may,
or may not, include some version of "Preterism." And, Preterism is
itself divided into various factions. The millennial doctrines may, or
may not, agree that Christ will physically rule on this earth for a
thousand, literal, years. Even at first glance, the casual observer
will
understand that these contradictory doctrines can not all be true --
though all may be false.
While Owd tries to undermine every other interpretation of end time
events, on the basis they do not all perfectly agree with each other,
the idiot fails to deduce that this line of reasoning all the more
undermines his own interpretation.
As I was reading the first part, I was thinking exactly what
you said in the last part of your sentence. <lol>
he relies on sophistry, diversion, confusion, and a strong hope
in the abject stupidity of those who may be reading.
Well, since others team up with him on certain issues,
this only speaks to their stupidity as well, since their
only argument is name calling.
Ahh Like calling Randy and Ben pigs? and unsaved?
On name-calling: I reckon terms like "liar" or "hypocrite" have been
tossed around in a name-calling manner. That is - the flaw is with the
respondent's disposition than his understanding.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
</ |
