For John W, re: 1st century churches

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"TomP"
Date:	14 Jun 2007 03:35:16 PM
Object:	For John W, re: 1st century churches

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I asked two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no one had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.
The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors of the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..
.

User: "RedFox"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	14 Jun 2007 11:27:31 PM

In article <8Ehci.25508$YL5.22375@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, "TomP"
<th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I asked two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no one had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors of the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Sounds like a fantasic journey and I envy you it - one little point - if
you are trying to duplicate the flavour of Greek cooked meat such as lamb
the missing spice is a tiny quantity of cinnamon. It took me ages to work
it out. I spotted the marjoram and cummin and even a trace of mace
sometimes - but it took a translation of a domestic greek cookbook to
spot the use of cinnamon
John also has problems understandinmg that Izmir city is ancient Smyrna
under the name given to it about 1924 by Kemel Ataturks government, He
thinks Ephesus and smyrna are the same which is why this first century non
existent church actually moves from place to place
When he was word blocked writing his autobiography some months back , I
penned a short chapter for him. He never even said thankyou
++++++++++++++++++++++
Here it is again:
Excerpt from Chapter three
"Ephesus takes a hike - a morning in Turkey"
I woke up to the unmistakeable sound of a ***** tripping over a chamber
pot and screaming. ."John it's gone!" she cried
"Wazzamarrer?" I mumbled, in my receding pot induced slumber, "What's gone?"
"Ephesus" cried the *****. "Ephesus, has gone"
Forgetting I was naked, I looked out of the window across the roofs of
Izmir, which is also known as Smyrna. A group of young girls wearing
veils were standing outside in the street. They looked up - saw me - and
leant against a lamp post with tears of laughter streaming down their
faces - I have always had a strong effect on the opposite sex and have had
at least 59 partners.
"Ephesus can't be gone you silly *****" I told my companion. "Ever since
I came to Turkey it has been the same city as Izmir-Smyrna"
"Not any longer" said the ***** "It's gone - not even leaving a black hole"
"Has this happened before here in Turkey?" I asked her
"Oh Yes John" she said - reaching for my most private parts. "Cities are
always moving here - just like those churches you told me about in East
Anglia and that first Century one here that you worshipped in and that
went missing last week"
And that is how I came into the secret knowledge that the Ephesus of Paul
and of John, the one hundred and fifty year old apostle who wrote the
Gospel named after him, was a mobile city that rarely remained in the same
place for more than three years.
And as a number of famous cartographers have told me, this causes great
problems for the map makers to this day. A professor of church history
once told me that one Roman legion followed it for seven years and by the
time they caught up with it every member of the Legion was dead...
(Continued page 94)
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches -	15 Jun 2007 12:07:42 PM

RedFox wrote:

In article <8Ehci.25508$YL5.22375@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, "TomP"
<th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I asked two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no one had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors of the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Sounds like a fantasic journey and I envy you it - one little point - if
you are trying to duplicate the flavour of Greek cooked meat such as lamb
the missing spice is a tiny quantity of cinnamon. It took me ages to work
it out. I spotted the marjoram and cummin and even a trace of mace
sometimes - but it took a translation of a domestic greek cookbook to
spot the use of cinnamon

John also has problems understandinmg that Izmir city is ancient Smyrna
under the name given to it about 1924 by Kemel Ataturks government, He
thinks Ephesus and smyrna are the same which is why this first century non
existent church actually moves from place to place

When he was word blocked writing his autobiography some months back , I
penned a short chapter for him. He never even said thankyou

++++++++++++++++++++++

Here it is again:

Excerpt from Chapter three

"Ephesus takes a hike - a morning in Turkey"

I woke up to the unmistakeable sound of a ***** tripping over a chamber
pot and screaming. ."John it's gone!" she cried

"Wazzamarrer?" I mumbled, in my receding pot induced slumber, "What's gone?"

"Ephesus" cried the *****. "Ephesus, has gone"

Forgetting I was naked, I looked out of the window across the roofs of
Izmir, which is also known as Smyrna. A group of young girls wearing
veils were standing outside in the street. They looked up - saw me - and
leant against a lamp post with tears of laughter streaming down their
faces - I have always had a strong effect on the opposite sex and have had
at least 59 partners.

"Ephesus can't be gone you silly *****" I told my companion. "Ever since
I came to Turkey it has been the same city as Izmir-Smyrna"

"Not any longer" said the ***** "It's gone - not even leaving a black hole"

"Has this happened before here in Turkey?" I asked her

"Oh Yes John" she said - reaching for my most private parts. "Cities are
always moving here - just like those churches you told me about in East
Anglia and that first Century one here that you worshipped in and that
went missing last week"

And that is how I came into the secret knowledge that the Ephesus of Paul
and of John, the one hundred and fifty year old apostle who wrote the
Gospel named after him, was a mobile city that rarely remained in the same
place for more than three years.

And as a number of famous cartographers have told me, this causes great
problems for the map makers to this day. A professor of church history
once told me that one Roman legion followed it for seven years and by the
time they caught up with it every member of the Legion was dead...

(Continued page 94)

===>Funny story.
My all-time favorite philosopher Heraclitus of Ephesus, who inspired me
to detour to Istambul & Kusadasi & Efes on a trip to Athens, taught that
PANTA RHEI - EVERYTHING FLOWS.
Perhaps JW heard something about that and developed the delusion that
Ephesus somehow flowed over to Ismir, as you describe? ;-) -- L.
P.S. Is that what happened to the legendary Moses who is said to have
kept looking for the "land of milk and honey" for some 40 years? The
land kept on moving away from him? (As I recall, he never found it, died
on the way, and, upon order of their deity his men invaded a bunch of
Canaanite towns, massacred all their inhabitants -- except for some
intact virgins whom they took for themselves -- and took over their
lands). ;-) -- L.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches -	15 Jun 2007 08:02:37 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:07:42 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
� 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

RedFox wrote:

In article <8Ehci.25508$YL5.22375@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, "TomP"
<th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I asked two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no one had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors of the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Sounds like a fantasic journey and I envy you it - one little point - if
you are trying to duplicate the flavour of Greek cooked meat such as lamb
the missing spice is a tiny quantity of cinnamon. It took me ages to work
it out. I spotted the marjoram and cummin and even a trace of mace
sometimes - but it took a translation of a domestic greek cookbook to
spot the use of cinnamon

John also has problems understandinmg that Izmir city is ancient Smyrna
under the name given to it about 1924 by Kemel Ataturks government, He
thinks Ephesus and smyrna are the same which is why this first century non
existent church actually moves from place to place

When he was word blocked writing his autobiography some months back , I
penned a short chapter for him. He never even said thankyou

++++++++++++++++++++++

Here it is again:

Excerpt from Chapter three

"Ephesus takes a hike - a morning in Turkey"

I woke up to the unmistakeable sound of a ***** tripping over a chamber
pot and screaming. ."John it's gone!" she cried

"Wazzamarrer?" I mumbled, in my receding pot induced slumber, "What's gone?"

"Ephesus" cried the *****. "Ephesus, has gone"

Forgetting I was naked, I looked out of the window across the roofs of
Izmir, which is also known as Smyrna. A group of young girls wearing
veils were standing outside in the street. They looked up - saw me - and
leant against a lamp post with tears of laughter streaming down their
faces - I have always had a strong effect on the opposite sex and have had
at least 59 partners.

"Ephesus can't be gone you silly *****" I told my companion. "Ever since
I came to Turkey it has been the same city as Izmir-Smyrna"

"Not any longer" said the ***** "It's gone - not even leaving a black hole"

"Has this happened before here in Turkey?" I asked her

"Oh Yes John" she said - reaching for my most private parts. "Cities are
always moving here - just like those churches you told me about in East
Anglia and that first Century one here that you worshipped in and that
went missing last week"

And that is how I came into the secret knowledge that the Ephesus of Paul
and of John, the one hundred and fifty year old apostle who wrote the
Gospel named after him, was a mobile city that rarely remained in the same
place for more than three years.

And as a number of famous cartographers have told me, this causes great
problems for the map makers to this day. A professor of church history
once told me that one Roman legion followed it for seven years and by the
time they caught up with it every member of the Legion was dead...

(Continued page 94)

===>Funny story.
My all-time favorite philosopher Heraclitus of Ephesus, who inspired me
to detour to Istambul & Kusadasi & Efes on a trip to Athens, taught that
PANTA RHEI - EVERYTHING FLOWS.
Perhaps JW heard something about that and developed the delusion that
Ephesus somehow flowed over to Ismir, as you describe? ;-) -- L.

P.S. Is that what happened to the legendary Moses who is said to have
kept looking for the "land of milk and honey" for some 40 years? The
land kept on moving away from him? (As I recall, he never found it, died
on the way, and, upon order of their deity his men invaded a bunch of
Canaanite towns, massacred all their inhabitants -- except for some
intact virgins whom they took for themselves -- and took over their
lands). ;-) -- L.

Did you forget to tell your funny story?
??
.

User: "ujb"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	14 Jun 2007 05:56:31 PM

TomP wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I asked two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no one had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors of the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Surprise surprise, but we all knew it was at best a drug induced dream! I'm sorry the
retard had running around looking for what he's been told my many isn't there.
Everyone now knows the truth but the tard known as scrambled one...
ujb
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	14 Jun 2007 07:04:00 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:56:31 -0500, ujb <ujb@bigfeet.com> wrote:
� 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

TomP wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I asked two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no one had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors of the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Surprise surprise, but we all knew it was at best a drug

Do make note, demon, that the places Tom P visited on his tour in NO
way resemble where I said the church was.
I have now seen some 3 - 4 "reports" from people who "went over there
for a look", but NONE of them BOTHERED to follow my VERY clear
instructions. They ALL ASSUMED I was "mistaken",and none of them found
the church!
Doesn't surprise me at all.
I tell you to meet me at 3rd and Main, and you decide that I meant
33rd and Mission street. You go to 33rd and Mission street, and you
wait an hour, while I am waiting for you at the destination we
arranged, 3rd and Main. The two locations are 25 miles apart.
Will we ever connect? Unlikely.
As unlikely as Tom P was to find the old church "among the ruins".
I never said it was "among the ruins,
And YOU, Jimmy boy, are psychotic.
Haven't you ever been told, you walking turd, that if you can't say
anything nice, you should shut up?
john w
snip
.

User: "TomP"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 02:00:00 PM

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from
Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in
Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and
Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian
structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called
the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as
Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I asked
two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven
of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were
located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house
of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no one
had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or
Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that
had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors of
the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around
Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of
Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and
place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Surprise surprise, but we all knew it was at best a drug

Do make note, demon, that the places Tom P visited on his tour in NO
way resemble where I said the church was.

Didn't you say your church was in Izmir? Aren't these words your
description of the location in your post of May 27, 2007?
"The site you want, the church I have mentioned MANY times, is DOWNTOWN, in
the city of Izmir proper. It's been almost 50 YEARS since I was there, but
if you can find the "Pavillion" (the local whorehouse/prison) if you can
find the "outdoor toilet", (the street you go down, at the corner, men turn
right, women turn left, you unzip, drop your pants/lift your dress, move
your underwear, and you squat. If you can find those two places, and if you
can find the silver and gold shops (where thousands of $$ worth of precious
metals are in the DISPLAY WINDOWS), and the leather shops, where you can buy
glove leather calf-length coats for $15, You're in the right place.
Look for a like two-three story (I couldn't see the top through the
trees), and block long/block wide PLAIN (not elaborate) building
(masonry?) with TALL wood double doors (I'm trying to recall 50 years
ago), with one/two (?) tall (8 foot) FLAT plain crosses (Christian) on
the doors. If you're facing the doors, the cornerstone should be below
you , at ground level, to your right. Looking back, I don't recall now
if the cornerstone is to the right of the doors or to the left."
"The church is DOWNTOWN. It is surrounded by a bustling city (at
least in 1967 it was), and I have no reason to believe the city and
the church have been moved.
If you have a cam-corder and a digital camera . . ."
Well, John W., I followed those directions in Izmir. I spent 160 Turkish
Lira on a licensed guide for 4 hours to take me to the earliest Christian
sites in Izmir. I showed him your directions and he took me to the
neighborhood. Lots of shops as you describe, but the prices are
considerably higher now, but no Christian Church at all, no plain wooden
crosses on tall doors, and there are no open latrines but lots of businesses
and even the municipalities have nice blue signs with the white letters "WC"
posted frequently. Turkey is far more developed now that the place you
describe and there is a large and thriving Christian tourist industry
catering to mostly Americans on guided tours and from Cruise Ships
throughout ancient Ionia. Everything remotely associated with early
Christianity is loudly touted and readily identifiable, and the guides know
their business. And their history and archaeology. Anyway, I saw many very
interesting sites and feel I got more than my money's worth, but no such
building or church exists. There is no first century church in Izmir or
anywhere else in Turkey, with the possible exception of the so-called "House
of Mary" in Ephesus. That is almost assuredly a first century structure,
but the connection with Mary the mother of Jesus stretches credibility.

I have now seen some 3 - 4 "reports" from people who "went over there
for a look", but NONE of them BOTHERED to follow my VERY clear
instructions. They ALL ASSUMED I was "mistaken",and none of them found
the church!

John W, I printed and took your post from 3 weeks or so ago and
specifically asked for that location in Izmir. There are no first century
structures identifiable as Christian or Pauline in Izmir, which is on the
site of ancient Smyrna. On the other hand, very little of ancient Smyrna
has been excavated because Izmir is built over the site, so no one can know
what is under Izmir.

Doesn't surprise me at all.

I tell you to meet me at 3rd and Main, and you decide that I meant
33rd and Mission street. You go to 33rd and Mission street, and you
wait an hour, while I am waiting for you at the destination we
arranged, 3rd and Main. The two locations are 25 miles apart.

Will we ever connect? Unlikely.
As unlikely as Tom P was to find the old church "among the ruins".

Did I use the term "among the ruins"?

I never said it was "among the ruins,

And YOU, Jimmy boy, are psychotic.

Haven't you ever been told, you walking turd, that if you can't say
anything nice, you should shut up?

john w

John W., I honestly tried. If my efforts were insufficient, my apologies.
But my experience over there is that the archaeological sites are readily
identifiable. When Herodotus wrote in Book 3 that there are three wonders
on Samos, the Temple of Hera, the tunnel of Eupalinea, and the mole in the
harbor in the modern village of Pythagorea, and one goes to Samos and there
they are even today, that is reliable information. If one reads the
Hippocratic writings and then goes to Kos and there is the Asclepion as
described by the ancient authors, that information must be considered
reliable. If the faculty leading our group can heed the directions of
Herodotus and other ancient authors, why have none of them ever heard of
your first century church in Izmir? Christian churches from the 4th and 5th
centuries exist at nearly all of the ancient cities and are obviously
Christian buildings. Considering the persecutions of the various emperors,
but especially Domitian and Diocletian in Ionia, it is little wonder no
structures identifiable as Christian survive from the first three centuries.
But believe whatever you want to believe.

snip

User: "=?iso-8859-4?Q?m=F2t?="
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 02:49:49 PM

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

snip
Thank you for an excellent update & kudos for having the foresight to print
out the *directions* john w gave you.
Mot
.

User: "TomP"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 04:00:22 PM

"mot" <mot@eat.mud> wrote in message news:exu08ntqrrvd.dlg@eat.mud...

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

snip

Thank you for an excellent update & kudos for having the foresight to
print
out the *directions* john w gave you.

Mot

Thank you. I deemed it prudent.
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 08:06:34 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:00:22 GMT, "TomP" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
� 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

"mot" <mot@eat.mud> wrote in message news:exu08ntqrrvd.dlg@eat.mud...

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

snip

Thank you for an excellent update & kudos for having the foresight to
print
out the *directions* john w gave you.

Mot

Thank you. I deemed it prudent.

It was certainly a good idea to print out the directions.
It is sad that you were unable to follow them correctly!
Had you contacted me while you were over there (which would have been
VERY prudent), I might have been able to direct you to the proper
place.
"Almost only counts in horse shoes."
You ALMOST followed my directions. Just "not QUITE!"
I didn't say anything about a church with "wooden crosses on the
doors."
And it seems to me a logical approach if I told you (I did) that the
church is roughly 2 blocks from the City Hall, if you had done a
radius of from 2 - 4 blocks around city hall, that BIG plain building
you'd have seen would have been... the church!
I'll just have to arrange to go myself!
john w

User: ""
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	16 Jun 2007 10:43:08 AM

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:06:34 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Had you contacted me while you were over there (which would have been
VERY prudent), I might have been able to direct you to the proper
place.

And would he have called you COLLECT, I trust?

"Almost only counts in horse shoes."

You ALMOST followed my directions. Just "not QUITE!"

I didn't say anything about a church with "wooden crosses on the
doors."

And it seems to me a logical approach if I told you (I did) that the
church is roughly 2 blocks from the City Hall, if you had done a
radius of from 2 - 4 blocks around city hall, that BIG plain building
you'd have seen would have been... the church!

Anything but admit you lied, as usual.

I'll just have to arrange to go myself!

john w

Good - Hope it's a nice, LONG vacation.....
.

User: "=?iso-8859-4?Q?m=F2t?="
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 10:32:34 PM

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:06:34 -0700, john w wrote:

"mot" <mot@eat.mud> wrote in message news:exu08ntqrrvd.dlg@eat.mud...

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

snip

Thank you for an excellent update & kudos for having the foresight to
print
out the *directions* john w gave you.

Mot

Thank you. I deemed it prudent.

It was certainly a good idea to print out the directions.

Maybe he read the way you tried to bad mouth Andrew.

It is sad that you were unable to follow them correctly!

Then it is even sadder that you can not give good directions.

Had you contacted me while you were over there (which would have been
VERY prudent), I might have been able to direct you to the proper

No you wouldn't, the man more than fulfilled any reasonable search
requirement based on your claimed ability to give directions.

place.

It has to be there, & everyone but you knows it is not.

"Almost only counts in horse shoes."

So much for your military Boot Camp training. It also counts in hand
grenades.

You ALMOST followed my directions. Just "not QUITE!"

Translation, you didn't do what I told you & therefore it is not my fault
you could not find my mobile church.

I didn't say anything about a church with "wooden crosses on the
doors."

He didn't say that was a requirement, nice try at a diversion though.

And it seems to me a logical approach if I told you (I did) that the
church is roughly 2 blocks from the City Hall, if you had done a
radius of from 2 - 4 blocks around city hall, that BIG plain building
you'd have seen would have been... the church!

He says he did, you say he didn't. I do believe he was there, you were n
ot. Not to mention, he is not known as a liar like you are.

I'll just have to arrange to go myself!

Please do, then you will be able to justify the Photo Shop SN you acquired
but did not purchase.

john w

Damn but you are trying to move the goal posts faster than an old woman
catching up on the party line gossip.
Mot
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 04:05:59 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:49:49 -0500, m�t <mot@eat.mud> wrote:
� 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

snip

Thank you for an excellent update & kudos for having the foresight to print
out the *directions* john w gave you.

Yeah! And they did him a lot of good. He strolled around Izmir
looking for a big church with "tall wood crosses on the doors."
He didn't follow my precise detail.
john w

Mot

User: "=?iso-8859-4?Q?m=F2t?="
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 06:30:19 PM

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:05:59 -0700, john w wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

snip

Thank you for an excellent update & kudos for having the foresight to print
out the *directions* john w gave you.

Yeah! And they did him a lot of good. He strolled around Izmir
looking for a big church with "tall wood crosses on the doors."

Really, where, other than your imagination, has he said that.

He didn't follow my precise detail.

Apparently your version of precise today does not match the version of
precise that the individual copied from your prior post. I suspect, know
actually, that your claims change faster than a woman's mind who just won a
free five million dollar shopping spree, tax paid, in her favorite shopping
place.
Now, is there anything else you want to add to this whine, other than
another attempt to move the goal posts that is.

john w

Mot
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 08:08:29 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:30:19 -0500, m�t <mot@eat.mud> wrote:
� 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:05:59 -0700, john w wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

snip

Thank you for an excellent update & kudos for having the foresight to print
out the *directions* john w gave you.

Yeah! And they did him a lot of good. He strolled around Izmir
looking for a big church with "tall wood crosses on the doors."

Really, where, other than your imagination, has he said that.

He didn't follow my precise detail.

Apparently your version of precise today does not match the

I've been curious.
Is your mental malady degenerative? Do they yet know what is causing
you to be so STUPID?
And your pathological lying is very unattractive!
(you never or rarely actually repost a POST; you just "quote it" and
BUTCHER it from "memory."
john w
version of

precise that the individual copied from your prior post. I suspect, know
actually, that your claims change faster than a woman's mind who just won a
free five million dollar shopping spree, tax paid, in her favorite shopping
place.

Now, is there anything else you want to add to this whine, other than
another attempt to move the goal posts that is.

john w

Mot

User: "=?iso-8859-4?Q?m=F2t?="
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 10:25:44 PM

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:08:29 -0700, john w wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:05:59 -0700, john w wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

snip

Thank you for an excellent update & kudos for having the foresight to print
out the *directions* john w gave you.

Yeah! And they did him a lot of good. He strolled around Izmir
looking for a big church with "tall wood crosses on the doors."

Really, where, other than your imagination, has he said that.

He didn't follow my precise detail.

Apparently your version of precise today does not match the

I've been curious.

You are more than curious, an oddity & malformed persona does not equate to
curious.

Is your mental malady degenerative? Do they yet know what is causing
you to be so STUPID?

If I were stupid as you, the cause probably would be trying to talk to you,
it would appear that not only do you have 5 bowls of stupid for breakfast,
but your variety might be contagious.

And your pathological lying is very unattractive!

Now there is the voice of experience. Perhaps you can refresh everyone's
memory & post one of those lies?

(you never or rarely actually repost a POST; you just "quote it" and
BUTCHER it from "memory."

Actually I show mercy on the audience. I snip [which means remove text that
i am not responding to, not that you can grasp the concept] so that rather
than wading through 300+ lines of your bilge water, the post can be done in
maybe 50 lines max. However, you are so windy, 50 lines or less is indeed
to rare. It is a foreign concept for you, one you demand from others but
fail to provide when you can, It;s known as courtesy to others.
The only time you consistently remove text is when your ***** is in the
wind.

john w

Fancy that, another inclusion from your cut & paste library no doubt.
Now, other than whining/crying a river & attempting to convince other\s
that they are as pathetic as you, do you have any response to the
following? Probably not. You are about cried out for the next five minutes.

version of

john w

Mot
.

User: "ujb"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 05:02:15 PM

TomP wrote:

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message=20
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:56:31 -0500, ujb <ujb@bigfeet.com> wrote:
=A9 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post=
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

TomP wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia fro=

m=20

Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited i=

n=20

Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and=20
Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos=

and

Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian=20
structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is calle=

d=20

the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as=20
Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I a=

sked=20

two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (sev=

en=20

of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were=20
located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "hou=

se=20

of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no=

one=20

had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or=20
Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think th=

at=20

had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Discipl=

someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors=

of=20

the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around=20
Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of=

=20

Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and =
place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Surprise surprise, but we all knew it was at best a drug

Do make note, demon, that the places Tom P visited on his tour in NO
way resemble where I said the church was.

Didn't you say your church was in Izmir? Aren't these words your=20
description of the location in your post of May 27, 2007?
=20
"The site you want, the church I have mentioned MANY times, is DOWNTOWN=

, in=20

the city of Izmir proper. It's been almost 50 YEARS since I was there,=

but=20

if you can find the "Pavillion" (the local whorehouse/prison) if you c=

an=20

find the "outdoor toilet", (the street you go down, at the corner, men =

turn=20

right, women turn left, you unzip, drop your pants/lift your dress, mov=

e=20

your underwear, and you squat. If you can find those two places, and if=

you=20

can find the silver and gold shops (where thousands of $$ worth of prec=

ious=20

metals are in the DISPLAY WINDOWS), and the leather shops, where you ca=

n buy=20

glove leather calf-length coats for $15, You're in the right place.
Look for a like two-three story (I couldn't see the top through the
trees), and block long/block wide PLAIN (not elaborate) building
(masonry?) with TALL wood double doors (I'm trying to recall 50 years
ago), with one/two (?) tall (8 foot) FLAT plain crosses (Christian) on
the doors. If you're facing the doors, the cornerstone should be below
you , at ground level, to your right. Looking back, I don't recall now
if the cornerstone is to the right of the doors or to the left."
=20
"The church is DOWNTOWN. It is surrounded by a bustling city (at
least in 1967 it was), and I have no reason to believe the city and
the church have been moved.
If you have a cam-corder and a digital camera . . ."
=20
Well, John W., I followed those directions in Izmir. I spent 160 Turki=

sh=20

Lira on a licensed guide for 4 hours to take me to the earliest Christi=

an=20

sites in Izmir. I showed him your directions and he took me to the=20
neighborhood. Lots of shops as you describe, but the prices are=20
considerably higher now, but no Christian Church at all, no plain woode=

n=20

crosses on tall doors, and there are no open latrines but lots of busin=

esses=20

and even the municipalities have nice blue signs with the white letters=

"WC"=20

posted frequently. Turkey is far more developed now that the place you=

=20

describe and there is a large and thriving Christian tourist industry=20
catering to mostly Americans on guided tours and from Cruise Ships=20
throughout ancient Ionia. Everything remotely associated with early=20
Christianity is loudly touted and readily identifiable, and the guides =

know=20

their business. And their history and archaeology. Anyway, I saw many=

very=20

interesting sites and feel I got more than my money's worth, but no suc=

h=20

building or church exists. There is no first century church in Izmir o=

r=20

anywhere else in Turkey, with the possible exception of the so-called "=

House=20

of Mary" in Ephesus. That is almost assuredly a first century structur=

e,=20

but the connection with Mary the mother of Jesus stretches credibility.=
=20

John W, I printed and took your post from 3 weeks or so ago and=20
specifically asked for that location in Izmir. There are no first cent=

ury=20

structures identifiable as Christian or Pauline in Izmir, which is on t=

he=20

site of ancient Smyrna. On the other hand, very little of ancient Smyr=

na=20

has been excavated because Izmir is built over the site, so no one can =

know=20

what is under Izmir.
=20

Did I use the term "among the ruins"?
=20

I never said it was "among the ruins,

And YOU, Jimmy boy, are psychotic.

Haven't you ever been told, you walking turd, that if you can't say
anything nice, you should shut up?

john w

John W., I honestly tried. If my efforts were insufficient, my apologi=

es.=20

But my experience over there is that the archaeological sites are readi=

ly=20

identifiable. When Herodotus wrote in Book 3 that there are three wond=

ers=20

on Samos, the Temple of Hera, the tunnel of Eupalinea, and the mole in =

the=20

harbor in the modern village of Pythagorea, and one goes to Samos and t=

here=20

they are even today, that is reliable information. If one reads the=20
Hippocratic writings and then goes to Kos and there is the Asclepion as=

=20

described by the ancient authors, that information must be considered=20
reliable. If the faculty leading our group can heed the directions of =
Herodotus and other ancient authors, why have none of them ever heard o=

f=20

your first century church in Izmir? Christian churches from the 4th an=

d 5th=20

centuries exist at nearly all of the ancient cities and are obviously=20
Christian buildings. Considering the persecutions of the various emper=

ors,=20

but especially Domitian and Diocletian in Ionia, it is little wonder no=

=20

structures identifiable as Christian survive from the first three centu=

ries.=20

But believe whatever you want to believe.
=20

snip

Thanks so much do dispelling this myth! Please feel free to tell us about=
your trip=20
and post pictures if you can.
thanks,
ujb
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	15 Jun 2007 04:04:57 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:00:00 GMT, "TomP" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
� 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from
Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in
Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and
Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian
structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called
the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as
Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I asked
two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven
of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were
located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house
of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no one
had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or
Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that
had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors of
the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around
Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of
Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and
place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Surprise surprise, but we all knew it was at best a drug

Do make note, demon, that the places Tom P visited on his tour in NO
way resemble where I said the church was.

Did you find the Pavillion? Did you visit the outdoor toilet? Did you
find City Hall?
Lots of shops as you describe, but the prices are

considerably higher now, but no Christian Church at all, no plain wooden
crosses on tall doors,

Ah hah! I didn't say a "plain wooden cross/or plain wooden crosses".
I said flat (like 1/2 " thick copper ? or brass ?) crosses.
and there are no open latrines
Glad to hear that. Trying to avoid the "piles" at night if you don't
have a flashlight or cigarette lighter, it's nasty.
but lots of businesses

and even the municipalities have nice blue signs with the white letters "WC"
posted frequently. Turkey is far more developed now that the place you
describe and there is a large and thriving Christian tourist industry
catering to mostly Americans on guided tours and from Cruise Ships
throughout ancient Ionia. Everything remotely associated with early
Christianity is loudly touted and readily identifiable, and the guides know
their business.

Well, Tom P, pardon me if I don't take your word for it. I have talked
with other veterans who have been there. Just so happens that my
building has a guard at night. I was talking with one of the guards a
year ago, and he was an ex-Navy guy. He said, "Izmir?" That's a Navy
port of call! The HUGE plain church downtown? Yeah! I walked right
past it half-a-dozen times!"
As I have said, I have several neighbors who have been past or to the
church. One is Muslim, and he knows the church. One is Roman Catholic,
and she knows the church.
I met a woman several years ago who is from the city, and she said
she's driven or walked past the church "countless times."
So I have to go with what I EXPERIENCED rather than with what you
have experienced.
And their history and archaeology. Anyway, I saw many very

interesting sites and feel I got more than my money's worth, but no such
building or church exists.

It would certainly be more polite of you to say, "if any such church
exists (it does), you were unable to find it."
There is no first century church in Izmir or
Actually, there is.
My seminary professor, Dr William McBirnie is the person who clued me
as to what the church was, and who built it. Pardon me if I believe
Dr. McBirnie.

anywhere else in Turkey, with the possible exception of the so-called "House
of Mary" in Ephesus. That is almost assuredly a first century structure,
but the connection with Mary the mother of Jesus stretches credibility.

John W, I printed and took your post from 3 weeks or so ago and
specifically asked for that location in Izmir.

And that is why you mentioned the church with the "wooden crosses on
the doors".
I never said any such thing.
There are no first century

structures identifiable as Christian or Pauline in Izmir, which is on the
site of ancient Smyrna.

AGAIN, I thank you for your effort. However, as I said, I am betting
if you had BOTHERED to contact me WHILE YOU WERE THERE, rather than
going from MEMORY, and your UNDERSTANDING/MISunderstanding of the
notes, you likely would have met with success.
And I frankly find it ARROGANT of you to state, "No such church
exists." I know it does.
On the other hand, very little of ancient Smyrna

has been excavated because Izmir is built over the site, so no one can know
what is under Izmir.

Did I use the term "among the ruins"?

You specifically said that you searched the ancient ruins.
Shall I repost that section of your comments?
You may have gone OTHER Places, but you left ME (the person of
importance in this dialogue) the impression that you confined your
search to the ruins.
I am very pleased if you ventured into the city of Izmir. You simply
missed the church I visited.

I never said it was "among the ruins,

And YOU, Jimmy boy, are psychotic.

Haven't you ever been told, you walking turd, that if you can't say
anything nice, you should shut up?

john w

John W., I honestly tried. If my efforts were insufficient, my apologies.

Well, AGAIN, Tom, I don't question your efforts. I AM perturbed
(frankly), that you didn't contact ME when you didn't find the site
immediately. You simply DISMISSED me as "not remembering correctly",
and then "of making stuff up."

But my experience over there is that the archaeological sites are readily
identifiable.

No doubt. But we aren't talking about an archaeological site. When I
was there, the church was "open for business." As are several of the
other 1st Century churches.
And one of the MEMBERS of that church, who contacted ME (a friend of
a friend), said the church is VERY proud that the membership has been
worshipping there in unbroken succession since Paul built the church.
I had several letters from him while he was in the US, and then I
never heard from him again.
When Herodotus wrote in Book 3 that there are three wonders

on Samos, the Temple of Hera, the tunnel of Eupalinea, and the mole in the
harbor in the modern village of Pythagorea, and one goes to Samos and there
they are even today, that is reliable information. If one reads the
Hippocratic writings and then goes to Kos and there is the Asclepion as
described by the ancient authors, that information must be considered
reliable.

Unfortunately, you are now talking like an archaeologist searching
ancient artifacts and sites.
I found the church (stumbled upon it) as a TOURIST; I merely followed
the trail of GIs on LEAVE (which I was -- an Air Force Airman 1st
Class at the time)
It's a GI leave town, and if you follow the men in uniform, or at
least the white guys/black guys with the REALLY short hair who are
talking English, any of THEM could have guided you right to it.
But you chose to trust the "experts" INSTEAD of ME, and you DISMISSED
me.
And you missed what might have been a GOLDEN opportunity to visit a
surviving church that Paul built.
And of the half-dozen natives of Izmir who I have talked with about
the church, they all say, "St Paul's church? Oh! You mean the BIG
one, downtown!" They say, "it's the BIGGEST one for 50 miles!"
Paul didn't do things in a small way.
If the faculty leading our group can heed the directions of

Herodotus and other ancient authors, why have none of them ever heard of
your first century church in Izmir?

Well, I'd refer you to Dr McBirnie, but he's passed. You might contact
Dr Holland London at Liberty University/Seminary, Lynchburg, VA.
He would know about the church.
At any rate, this quibbling is getting us nowhere.
The damage of you not believing me to begin with, and of you not
contacting me to double-check if you understood me clearly (you
didn't) is done.
I will use the money from my book sales over the next two years to pay
my own way, or I'll catch a "veteran's standby flight" with the
military someday soon when I'm not up to my eyeballs writing.
And maybe you'll be around and I'll post the pictures and video.
From your comments, you did little more than HUMOR me, since your
"experts" told you the church doesn't exist, and you believed them.
They're wrong.
Christian churches from the 4th and 5th

centuries exist at nearly all of the ancient cities and are obviously
Christian buildings. Considering the persecutions of the various emperors,
but especially Domitian and Diocletian in Ionia, it is little wonder no
structures identifiable as Christian survive from the first three centuries.
But believe whatever you want to believe.

Thanks! I'll do that!
And by all means, you do the same!
:-)
john w

snip

User: "TomP"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	19 Jun 2007 09:32:40 AM

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9iu573lrp4q500v0almvthu9ls45hi76n7@4ax.com...

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote:

I just returned from Greece and Turkey, and toured ancient Ionia from
Izmir
to Dodrum on a study abroad program. The ancient sites we visited in
Ionia
were Smyrna, Claros, Ephesus, Priene, Miletus, Didyma, and
Halicarnassus,
and their modern counterparts, as well as the Greek Islands of Samos
and
Kos. There are no first (or second or third) century Christian
structures
in any of these places, with the possible exception of what is called
the
"House of Mary" at Ephesus. The oldest structures identifiable as
Christian
are 4th century churches in Smyrna, Ephesus, and Miletus. John, I
asked
two
historians, an archaeologist, and every tour guide I could find (seven
of
them) where the oldest structures identifiable as Christian were
located.
They all invariably pointed me to 4th century structures or the "house
of
Mary" at Ephesus. I tried to find the places you referred to but no
one
had
ever heard of any structure like those you described in Ephesus or
Izmir.
Sorry I couldn't help you.

The "House of Mary" is kind of an odd claim. Personally, I think that
had
the mother of Jesus resided in Ephesus with John the Beloved Disciple,
someone likely would have mentioned this, such a Paul or the authors
of
the
Johaninne corpus which almost certainly was written in or around
Ephesus.
Not even the guides running the " Early Christian" and "Footsteps of
Paul"
tours seemed to really give this place any credence as the home and
place of
death of Mary the mother of Jesus..

Surprise surprise, but we all knew it was at best a drug

Do make note, demon, that the places Tom P visited on his tour in NO
way resemble where I said the church was.

Did you find the Pavillion? Did you visit the outdoor toilet? Did you
find City Hall?

Lots of shops as you describe, but the prices are

considerably higher now, but no Christian Church at all, no plain wooden
crosses on tall doors,

Ah hah! I didn't say a "plain wooden cross/or plain wooden crosses".
I said flat (like 1/2 " thick copper ? or brass ?) crosses.

and there are no open latrines

Glad to hear that. Trying to avoid the "piles" at night if you don't
have a flashlight or cigarette lighter, it's nasty.

but lots of businesses

and even the municipalities have nice blue signs with the white letters
"WC"
posted frequently. Turkey is far more developed now that the place you
describe and there is a large and thriving Christian tourist industry
catering to mostly Americans on guided tours and from Cruise Ships
throughout ancient Ionia. Everything remotely associated with early
Christianity is loudly touted and readily identifiable, and the guides
know
their business.

Well, Tom P, pardon me if I don't take your word for it. I have talked
with other veterans who have been there. Just so happens that my
building has a guard at night. I was talking with one of the guards a
year ago, and he was an ex-Navy guy. He said, "Izmir?" That's a Navy
port of call! The HUGE plain church downtown? Yeah! I walked right
past it half-a-dozen times!"

As I have said, I have several neighbors who have been past or to the
church. One is Muslim, and he knows the church. One is Roman Catholic,
and she knows the church.

I met a woman several years ago who is from the city, and she said
she's driven or walked past the church "countless times."

So I have to go with what I EXPERIENCED rather than with what you
have experienced.

And their history and archaeology. Anyway, I saw many very

interesting sites and feel I got more than my money's worth, but no such
building or church exists.

It would certainly be more polite of you to say, "if any such church
exists (it does), you were unable to find it."

There is no first century church in Izmir or

Actually, there is.

My seminary professor, Dr William McBirnie is the person who clued me
as to what the church was, and who built it. Pardon me if I believe
Dr. McBirnie.

anywhere else in Turkey, with the possible exception of the so-called
"House
of Mary" in Ephesus. That is almost assuredly a first century structure,
but the connection with Mary the mother of Jesus stretches credibility.

John W, I printed and took your post from 3 weeks or so ago and
specifically asked for that location in Izmir.

And that is why you mentioned the church with the "wooden crosses on
the doors".

I never said any such thing.

There are no first century

structures identifiable as Christian or Pauline in Izmir, which is on the
site of ancient Smyrna.

AGAIN, I thank you for your effort. However, as I said, I am betting
if you had BOTHERED to contact me WHILE YOU WERE THERE, rather than
going from MEMORY, and your UNDERSTANDING/MISunderstanding of the
notes, you likely would have met with success.

And I frankly find it ARROGANT of you to state, "No such church
exists." I know it does.

On the other hand, very little of ancient Smyrna

has been excavated because Izmir is built over the site, so no one can
know
what is under Izmir.

Did I use the term "among the ruins"?

You specifically said that you searched the ancient ruins.
Shall I repost that section of your comments?

You may have gone OTHER Places, but you left ME (the person of
importance in this dialogue) the impression that you confined your
search to the ruins.

I am very pleased if you ventured into the city of Izmir. You simply
missed the church I visited.

I never said it was "among the ruins,

And YOU, Jimmy boy, are psychotic.

Haven't you ever been told, you walking turd, that if you can't say
anything nice, you should shut up?

john w

John W., I honestly tried. If my efforts were insufficient, my apologies.

But my experience over there is that the archaeological sites are readily
identifiable.

No doubt. But we aren't talking about an archaeological site. When I
was there, the church was "open for business." As are several of the
other 1st Century churches.
And one of the MEMBERS of that church, who contacted ME (a friend of
a friend), said the church is VERY proud that the membership has been
worshipping there in unbroken succession since Paul built the church.

I had several letters from him while he was in the US, and then I
never heard from him again.

When Herodotus wrote in Book 3 that there are three wonders

on Samos, the Temple of Hera, the tunnel of Eupalinea, and the mole in the
harbor in the modern village of Pythagorea, and one goes to Samos and
there
they are even today, that is reliable information. If one reads the
Hippocratic writings and then goes to Kos and there is the Asclepion as
described by the ancient authors, that information must be considered
reliable.

Unfortunately, you are now talking like an archaeologist searching
ancient artifacts and sites.
I found the church (stumbled upon it) as a TOURIST; I merely followed
the trail of GIs on LEAVE (which I was -- an Air Force Airman 1st
Class at the time)

It's a GI leave town, and if you follow the men in uniform, or at
least the white guys/black guys with the REALLY short hair who are
talking English, any of THEM could have guided you right to it.

But you chose to trust the "experts" INSTEAD of ME, and you DISMISSED
me.

And you missed what might have been a GOLDEN opportunity to visit a
surviving church that Paul built.

And of the half-dozen natives of Izmir who I have talked with about
the church, they all say, "St Paul's church? Oh! You mean the BIG
one, downtown!" They say, "it's the BIGGEST one for 50 miles!"
Paul didn't do things in a small way.

If the faculty leading our group can heed the directions of

Herodotus and other ancient authors, why have none of them ever heard of
your first century church in Izmir?

Well, I'd refer you to Dr McBirnie, but he's passed. You might contact
Dr Holland London at Liberty University/Seminary, Lynchburg, VA.
He would know about the church.

At any rate, this quibbling is getting us nowhere.

The damage of you not believing me to begin with, and of you not
contacting me to double-check if you understood me clearly (you
didn't) is done.

I will use the money from my book sales over the next two years to pay
my own way, or I'll catch a "veteran's standby flight" with the
military someday soon when I'm not up to my eyeballs writing.

And maybe you'll be around and I'll post the pictures and video.

From your comments, you did little more than HUMOR me, since your
"experts" told you the church doesn't exist, and you believed them.

They're wrong.

Christian churches from the 4th and 5th

centuries exist at nearly all of the ancient cities and are obviously
Christian buildings. Considering the persecutions of the various
emperors,
but especially Domitian and Diocletian in Ionia, it is little wonder no
structures identifiable as Christian survive from the first three
centuries.

But believe whatever you want to believe.

Thanks! I'll do that!

And by all means, you do the same!

:-)

john w

For some strange reason you made up this ridiculous tale of a first century
church on the site of ancient Smyrna. Or was it Ephesus? You see, John W.,
you have changed your mind through the years. Well, despite the mountain of
evidence to the contrary, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and looked in
both places following your very own directions. I found no such first
century church. No first century church exists. You really do have my
sympathy as the pathology you suffer from must be a horrible anguish for you
to endure.
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: For John W, re: 1st century churches	19 Jun 2007 08:27:31 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:32:40 -0500, "TomP" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
� 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
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"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:9kl373929mltle1ksnkq0rdo5rjge798ip@4ax.com...

TomP wrote: