| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Glenn" |
| Date: |
11 Aug 2007 12:48:29 PM |
| Object: |
FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES
Passing of Mosaic Law
Matthew 5:17-18, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no
wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
There are two points in Jesus' statement.
1) He came to fulfill the Law, and
2) "Till heaven and earth pass," the law will not pass away until all is
fulfilled.
This second part has two parts:
a) "till heaven and earth pass;" and,
b) "until all is fulfilled."
Both parts of this second clause must be fulfilled before Mosaic Law
passes away.
A Preterist asked:
"Jesus came to fulfill the law. He specifically stated WHEN the Mosaic
Law would pass. It would pass when "heaven and earth pass" and when "all
(prophesy) be fulfilled." If heaven and earth did not pass, or if all
prophesy has not been fulfilled, why, dear reader, are you not keeping
the Mosaic law?"
The question suffers from serious fallacy, as will be demonstrated.
A Preterist said, "Jesus said it would not pass, and must be obeyed,
until these things happen."
Jesus did not say "it would not pass, and must be obeyed," these words
are not in the scripture; they were composed by the person making this
false statement.
My Answer to this Question is in two parts:
Part One, The Gentiles
Part Two, The Jews
Part One, The Gentiles
Some tell us that Jesus meant "until the heaven and earth pass away you
must observe the Law of Moses and offer animal sacrifice for your sins."
Is that what Jesus said?
Jesus statement contains three parts:
a) He came to fulfill the Law
b) Till heaven and earth pass,
c) Not the smallest part of the Law will be removed, till all be fulfilled
It is inferred by His statement, that when all is fulfilled AND heaven
and earth pass away THEN the Law will pass away.
Contrary to Preterist Doctrine,
1) Jesus did fulfill the Law's demand for sacrifice
2) Heaven and earth have NOT passed, and
3) NOT one jot or tittle has passed from the Law
1) "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of
commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain
one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, Romans
6:14, Gal 3:13 and 5:18, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not
under the law.
The fact is:
It Was His Death As The Lamb of God Which Removed Us From The Law--not
that a jot or tittle has passed from the law.
The question, "if the Law has not passed, then why aren't you offering
animal sacrifice for you sin" is based on illogic and a wrong
interpretation of His Word.
To attempt to answerer this question one accepts the false premise that
Jesus meant "until the Law pass away you must observe the Law of Moses
and offer animal sacrifice for your sin." And, that for the Law to pass
away the heaven and earth must pass away.
To refute the false premise and wrong interpretation of His Word
contained in that question, one must correct them before attempting to
answer that question. Actually, once the fallacy is exposed and the
wrong assumption corrected, then there is no question.
First, if the assumption were correct, (that the law remained in force
until the heaven and earth passed away [according to Preterism, in AD
70]) then the Gentiles would have been required to keep the Law until
the destruction of Jerusalem.
Contrary to the Preterists fallacy, the Gentiles were never required to
keep the Law of Moses.
Acts 15:1-33, (This is a Must read.)
Luke relates that certain men attempted to get the gentiles to obey the
Law of Moses.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have
troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be
circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send
chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the
same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no
greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from
things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep
yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Note v 24 "Have Troubled You with Words, Subverting Your Souls, saying,
Ye must be circumcised, and Keep The Law: to whom we gave no such
commandment..."
Some men had been attempting (even as some do to this day) to require
others to obey the Law of Moses.
Please note the phrase "and Keep the Law." Up to the time Luke is
describing, the Gentiles had not been required to keep the Law of Moses.
At that time, according to the false Doctrine of the Preterists, the
earth had not "passed away." The heaven and earth had not yet passed
away at the time which the "Acts of the Apostles" was written, and the
Apostles knew of Jesus' words.
Now, the contention of some is that since the earth has not yet passed
away, then the Law is still in force. According to this false
interpretation of Jesus words, the Law of Moses must have been in force
during the time of the writing of the Book of Acts, and when Paul and
Barnabas brought this question to the Apostles in Jerusalem.
Did the Apostles require the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses? No! "We
gave no such commandment." v 24.
If the Apostles and Holy Ghost had interpreted Jesus words in the same
way the Preterists do, then they would have answered the same way the
Preterists do: that "you must keep the Law of Moses, be circumcised and
offer animal sacrifice, until the heaven and earth pass."
But, They Did Not!
The Apostles did not tell us that we need to continue to make animal
sacrifices until the earth passed away, because they knew Jesus did not
say that.
Conclusion, Part One:
a) Before Salvation came to the Gentiles they were not required to keep
the Law of Moses;
b) Then after Salvation came to the Gentiles, they were not required to
keep the law before AD 70, and were never required (according to Acts
15:1-33) to keep the Law of Moses
c) Therefore, This question is based on fallacy and is an intent to
deceive.
Part Two, The Jews
The question, "If the Law of Moses has not passed away then why don't
you practice animal sacrifice," is based, in the very least, on a fallacy.
It is impossible to answer the question except by allowing the wrong
assumption. The option; is to correct the wrong assumption. Actually,
once the fallacy is exposed, there is no question.
The false assumption is: that the law has passed away, and that that is
why we don't practice animal sacrifice; or, that if the heaven and earth
have not passed away, the Law has not passed, and then we must practice
animal sacrifice. The obvious intent of the question is to convince you
that both the Law and the Heavens and earth passed away in AD 70.
Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no
wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat. 5:17-18.
His statement has three parts:
a) Till heaven and earth pass
b) One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
c) Till all be fulfilled
In the context of His speech, "all" includes the prophecies of his
second coming. In direct contradiction of the sophistry on which the
question is based:
1) All Prophecy has NOT been fulfilled
2) Heaven and earth have NOT passed away
3) NOT a jot or a tittle has passed from the Law
His death as the Lamb of God fulfilled the Law's demand for sacrifice.
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which
was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"
Colossians 2:14
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,
but under grace." Romans 6:14, "IFyou are under Grace, you are not under
the Law..."
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse
for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
Gal 3:13 and 5:18, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the
law." Eph 2:15. "IF you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law..."
The false premise, from which the Preterists begin their question, is
that the ONLY reason we do not practice the Law of Moses and offer
animal sacrifice is because the Law has passed away, and for that to
have occurred, the heaven and earth must also have passed away. This is
delusion.
The Law of Moses is not practiced for two reasons, Because:
a) Faith in Christ's Death as the Lamb of God brings salvation--the Law
does not; and,
b) because Christ fulfilled the demand of the Law for sacrifice, IF you
accept His Sacrifice. Gal. 3:13.
Those Jews who do not accept the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God are still
under the Law, However:
a) God has removed the Temple, and
b) God removed the Levite Priesthood.
Even if a Jew, or any person, wished to obey the Law of Moses, without a
Levite Priest he cannot.
The Preterists begin their false doctrine by basing it on a wrong
interpretation of His Word:
a) That when Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass away until all
is fulfilled..." He could have ONLY been speaking to the men who heard
His words... Mat 24:29.
b) Therefore, (according to Preterism) All prophecy was fulfilled in AD
70; the Lord did come, and heaven and earth (by a mythical definition)
passed away, and therefore The Law has passed.
They use their fallacy (the heavens and earth have passed and all has
been fulfilled) in an attempt to convince you that unless their wrong
assumptions are accepted as true then you must obey the Law of Moses and
replace Christ with animal sacrifice.
Conclusion, Part Two:
a) The death of the Lamb of God fulfilled the Mosaic Law's demand for
sacrifice, for those who accept Christ as their Messiah.
b) There is no record (that I know of) indicating that Jewish Christians
continued to keep the Law of animal sacrifice after The Lamb of God and
before AD 70.
c) Those who reject Christ cannot keep the Law of Moses because God
removed the Levite Priesthood.
1) The Apostles and Jewish Christians knew that the death of the Messiah
as the Lamb of God fulfilled the requirement of the Law of Moses for
sacrifice for sin, and the Gentiles were not required to "keep the Law."
Gal. 3:13, Acts 15:1-33.
2) All prophecy has not been fulfilled
3) Heaven and Earth have not passed away
4) not a jot nor a title has passed from the Law.
The Law has not passed away, and still demands sacrifice for sin; and
those who reject the sacrifice of the Lamb of God have no sacrifice for
their sin and cannot fulfill the Mosaic Law.
Conclusion: The Preterists will not accept the Truth that the reason
animal sacrifice is not required is that Jesus fulfilled the Law.
Preterists will continue to insist that the heaven and earth passed away
(by some mythical definition) and "ALL" has been fulfilled, and thus the
Law has passed away and THAT is why animal sacrifice is not required.
Preterists reject the sacrifice of the Lamb of God as the reason we are
not required to offer animal sacrifice for sin.
Glenn
His witness
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
13 Aug 2007 08:35:41 AM |
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"Glenn"
FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES
Passing of Mosaic Law
Matthew 5:17-18, "Think not that I am come to destroy the
law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For
verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
tittle shall in no
wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
My take on it is simple. The heavens and the earth cannot
pass away before the Law is fulfilled. Since I believe the
heavens and the earth can *never* really pass away, but only
its current fallen state, I believe the Law of Moses *must*
have its fulfillment at some point in time.
And this fulfillment must continue to be worked out until
its full program is completed, before even the current state
of the heavens and earth is finally changed into its eternal
form. In fact, I believe that this final change coming to
the heavens and the earth is part of this fulfillment of the
Law of Moses.
The fulfillment of the Law of Moses, of every signification
of the dots and tittles of the Law, began to be fulfilled in
Christ. Every command was fulfilled in Christ's
righteousness and in Israel's unrighteousness. This means
that even though a relative few were obedient under the Law,
as a whole the nation failed under the Law, and every
command under the Law was therefore fulfilled in Israel's
failure and in their failure to accept Jesus as their
Messiah.
The righteousness of Christ fulfilled the Law because he
displayed the moral character that the Law pointed to, a
righteousness that was intended to be fulfilled in Christ
and not in Israel under the Law itself. Therefore, the Law
and its commands began to be fulfilled when Christ appeared
and continues to be fulfilled in all those who have received
Christ's spirit and righteousness. In the end humanity will
be resurrected into an eternal form, and heaven and earth
will also receive an eternal form, when the age of sin
passes away from existence.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
14 Aug 2007 03:26:04 AM |
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randy a ecrit :
"Glenn"
FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES
Passing of Mosaic Law
Matthew 5:17-18, "Think not that I am come to destroy the
law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For
verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
tittle shall in no
wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
My take on it is simple. The heavens and the earth cannot
pass away before the Law is fulfilled.
torah observant adherents 'fulfill' the `torah` on a daily basis as
the greek word spoken by the yeshua / iesou character is PLHRWSAI.
what a joke.
your deity should take you behind the barn with the switch for your
distortions and misrepresentations of his "Word".
in fact, as a 'believer' of the "God's Word" one should be terrified
to mis-represent the oracles.
you on the other hand from your Fred Mertz level of competence or a
William Bendix blue-collar 1949 Television world sit in your armchair
pontificating your alleged "revelation"
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
14 Aug 2007 09:18:51 AM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
My take on it is simple. The heavens and the earth cannot
pass away before the Law is fulfilled.
torah observant adherents 'fulfill' the `torah` on a daily
basis as
the greek word spoken by the yeshua / iesou character is
PLHRWSAI.
Look the word up in a Greek Concordance and you will find
the word is used often in the sense of a *prophetic*
fulfillment.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
14 Aug 2007 09:37:31 AM |
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randy a ecrit :
"Ha SATAN
randy
My take on it is simple. The heavens and the earth cannot
pass away before the Law is fulfilled.
torah observant adherents 'fulfill' the `torah` on a daily
basis as
the greek word spoken by the yeshua / iesou character is
PLHRWSAI.
Look the word up in a Greek Concordance and you will find
the word is used often in the sense of a *prophetic*
fulfillment.
randy
LOL -- a 'Concordance' is merely a listing of instances of ENGLISH
words in an English translation and tells us NOTHING about the lexemic
approximations in context.
You are completely befuddled about your Bible tools so-called,
how much more you "Bible"
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
14 Aug 2007 11:13:06 PM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
Look the word up in a Greek Concordance and you will find
the word is used often in the sense of a *prophetic*
fulfillment.
LOL -- a 'Concordance' is merely a listing of instances
of ENGLISH
words in an English translation and tells us NOTHING about
the lexemic
approximations in context.
Open up a Strong's Concordance and you will find the
instances of English words, yes. But on the side of each
word you will find a number that references a Greek word,
which can be found in the back of the book. When you look up
each English word, it is given in a partial context, and the
reference at any rate is given so you can look up the
context in more detail.
So whatever you meant by your claim, it seems misleading.
You are completely befuddled about your Bible tools
so-called,
how much more you "Bible"
I'm only "befuddled" about the loss of my books. I've
actually been looking for them since our conversation about
source languages began. I'm very frustrated.
randy
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| User: "snowpheonix" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
15 Aug 2007 04:20:10 AM |
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On Aug 15, 2:13 pm, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:
I'm only "befuddled" about the loss of my books. I've
actually been looking for them since our conversation about
source languages began. I'm very frustrated.
randy
I find it interesting that other people are more interested in what
other books say besides the scriptures. I wouldn't be to worried
randy since all you have to do is get e-sword and download free copies
of all those books you mentioned.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Master, Master,' shall enter
into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My
Father in the heavens.
Mat 7:22 "Many shall say to Me in that day, 'Master, Master, have we
not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and
done many mighty works in Your Name?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I shall declare to them, 'I never knew you, depart
from Me, you who work lawlessness!'1 Footnote: 1 See v. 15.
Mat 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does
them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock,
LAWLESSNESS means not under the law because you believe it's been
voided somehow.
I wish that some of you guys would take the time to make a better case
for why you can ignore the Sabbath when I just tore apart this one.
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of Elohim.
Act 17:2 And according to his practice, Sha'ul went in unto them, and
for three Sabbaths was reasoning with them from the Scriptures,
Act 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened
Bread, and came to them at Troas in five days, where we stayed seven
days.
Look at all the references to Paul keeping the Law.. ignore them as
always.
Rev 14:12
(ESV) Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep
the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
(KJVR) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(The Scriptures 1998+) Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones,
here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of
.
Ignore your scriptures at your own peril.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
20 Aug 2007 12:14:18 AM |
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"snowpheonix"
"randy"
I'm only "befuddled" about the loss of my books. I've
actually been looking for them since our conversation
about
source languages began. I'm very frustrated.
I find it interesting that other people are more
interested in what
other books say besides the scriptures. I wouldn't be to
worried
randy since all you have to do is get e-sword and download
free copies
of all those books you mentioned.
I suppose I like my books in hand. I still can't believe
these books are lost. They simply have to be buried
somewhere in my storage sheds! I've just finished a major
construction project in my house. Regardless, reference
books are important. They don't take the place of
Scriptures. They enhance the true understanding of
Scriptures. They are tools used for proper understanding, to
avoid mis-understanding.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Master, Master,'
shall enter
into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the
desire of My
Father in the heavens.
Mat 7:22 "Many shall say to Me in that day, 'Master,
Master, have we
not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your
Name, and
done many mighty works in Your Name?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I shall declare to them, 'I never knew
you, depart
from Me, you who work lawlessness!'1 Footnote: 1 See v.
15.
Mat 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of
Mine, and does
them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the
rock,
LAWLESSNESS means not under the law because you believe
it's been
voided somehow.
You would be lawless under the Law of Moses if it was still
in effect. If it was not still in effect, you would not be
lawless under that system of law. Paul said circumcision
counts for nothing. Paul said there was no special day
anymore, including the Sabbath Day. Paul said that Christ
was the ultimate sacrifice, making all other sacrifices
under the Law superfluous and in fact useless. Jesus made it
clear following his resurrection that everything written in
the Scriptures pointed to him and was fulfilled in his
redemptive death.
I wish that some of you guys would take the time to make a
better case
for why you can ignore the Sabbath when I just tore apart
this one.
What did you "tear apart?"
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people
of Elohim.
The Sabbath was to be fulfilled in the coming Kingdom when
we rest from sinful works. It is no longer a "day," but an
*age.*
Act 17:2 And according to his practice, Sha'ul went in
unto them, and
for three Sabbaths was reasoning with them from the
Scriptures,
Paul was not observing the Sabbath, but rather, using it as
an opportunity to meet with his fellow Jews.
Act 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the Days
of Unleavened
Bread, and came to them at Troas in five days, where we
stayed seven
days.
Reference was made to Jewish feasts not because they were
still in effect, but because they were still being observed
by the Jews. I could, for example, make reference to
Halloween because people observe it--not because it has any
religious validity.
Look at all the references to Paul keeping the Law..
ignore them as
always.
Paul observed vow-making because it is still okay to make
vows, eg marriage vows. However, Paul kept his vow-making
within the traditional observance of the Law, not because he
felt the Law was still valid, but rather, so as to pay
respect to his fellow Jews, who continued to observe the
Law. He wished to maintain peace among his own people,
whether they were hostile or peaceable.
Rev 14:12
(ESV) Here is a call for the endurance of the saints,
those who keep
the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
The "commandments of God" are Jesus' commands to love God
and to love our neighbor.
Ignore your scriptures at your own peril.
I try to interpret them in context and as the Scripture
suggests, "comparing Scripture with Scripture."
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
15 Aug 2007 05:02:16 AM |
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randy napisal(a):
"Ha SATAN
randy
Look the word up in a Greek Concordance and you will find
the word is used often in the sense of a *prophetic*
fulfillment.
LOL -- a 'Concordance' is merely a listing of instances
of ENGLISH
words in an English translation and tells us NOTHING about
the lexemic
approximations in context.
Open up a Strong's Concordance and you will find the
instances of English words, yes. But on the side of each
word you will find a number that references a Greek word,
which can be found in the back of the book. When you look up
each English word, it is given in a partial context, and the
reference at any rate is given so you can look up the
context in more detail.
So whatever you meant by your claim, it seems misleading.
You are completely befuddled about your Bible tools
so-called,
how much more you "Bible"
I'm only "befuddled" about the loss of my books. I've
actually been looking for them since our conversation about
source languages began. I'm very frustrated.
randy
My guess is that you not remaining sufficient grains of sand in your
little hourglass to reverse your mental damage.
so please continue spewing your rubbish,
it is only infectious to the feeble-minded.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
19 Aug 2007 11:55:39 PM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
I'm only "befuddled" about the loss of my books. I've
actually been looking for them since our conversation
about
source languages began. I'm very frustrated.
My guess is that you not remaining sufficient grains of
sand in your
little hourglass to reverse your mental damage.
so please continue spewing your rubbish,
it is only infectious to the feeble-minded.
Once again, you lack any argument.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
20 Aug 2007 04:17:26 AM |
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randy napisal(a):
"Ha SATAN
randy
I'm only "befuddled" about the loss of my books. I've
actually been looking for them since our conversation
about
source languages began. I'm very frustrated.
My guess is that you not remaining sufficient grains of
sand in your
little hourglass to reverse your mental damage.
so please continue spewing your rubbish,
it is only infectious to the feeble-minded.
Once again, you lack any argument.
randy
Once again you lied.
PLHERWSAI has naught to do with prophecy.
Lying scum evangelist.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
21 Aug 2007 11:03:04 AM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
Once again you lied.
PLHERWSAI has naught to do with prophecy.
Once again, I supplied the proof that "pleroo" was used by
Matthew in conjunction with prophetic fulfillment. randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
15 Aug 2007 05:26:52 AM |
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randy napisal(a):
"Ha SATAN
randy
My take on it is simple. The heavens and the earth cannot
pass away before the Law is fulfilled.
torah observant adherents 'fulfill' the `torah` on a daily
basis as
the greek word spoken by the yeshua / iesou character is
PLHRWSAI.
Look the word up in a Greek Concordance and you will find
the word is used often in the sense of a *prophetic*
fulfillment.
randy
one could use the word in any way which one pleases, for example,
'The offended gentlemen struck the loathsome Christian Evangelist on
the gob and "filled to the full" their fists into his brain"
this wouldn't change the meaning of `plerosai`
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
20 Aug 2007 12:15:56 AM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
Look the word up in a Greek Concordance and you will find
the word is used often in the sense of a *prophetic*
fulfillment.
one could use the word in any way which one pleases, for
example,
'The offended gentlemen struck the loathsome Christian
Evangelist on
the gob and "filled to the full" their fists into his
brain"
this wouldn't change the meaning of `plerosai`
I gave you examples from Matthew of how the word "pleroo" is
used for prophetic fulfillment. God Himself will deal with
your violent tendencies.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
20 Aug 2007 04:16:12 AM |
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randy napisal(a):
"Ha SATAN
randy
Look the word up in a Greek Concordance and you will find
the word is used often in the sense of a *prophetic*
fulfillment.
one could use the word in any way which one pleases, for
example,
'The offended gentlemen struck the loathsome Christian
Evangelist on
the gob and "filled to the full" their fists into his
brain"
this wouldn't change the meaning of `plerosai`
I gave you examples from Matthew of how the word "pleroo" is
used for prophetic fulfillment.
but it doesn't mean 'prophecy'
so you lied.
God Himself will deal with
my lies.
randy
your EGREGOR has plummeted to the depths and dissolved.
it's unlikely that your lies will cease without intervention and
medication.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
13 Aug 2007 12:06:12 PM |
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randy wrote:
"Glenn"
FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES
Passing of Mosaic Law
Matthew 5:17-18, "Think not that I am come to destroy the
law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For
verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
tittle shall in no
wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
My take on it is simple. The heavens and the earth cannot
pass away before the Law is fulfilled. Since I believe the
heavens and the earth can *never* really pass away, but only
its current fallen state, I believe the Law of Moses *must*
have its fulfillment at some point in time.
IMHO,
The Law of Moses was fulfilled, completed, with the Death of the Messiah.
However, the covenant with Adam, Noah and Abraham, and the Law of Moses,
have not yet "passed away."
Each covenant was 'superseded' or replaced by the following covenant,
and those who do not accept or obey the next covenant are under the
previous, until ALL pass away.
Therefore, If one reject the New Covenant sealed by the Blood of Christ,
then the Law of Moses is all you have -- and NONE can live by the Law of
Moses because there is NO Levi Priest!!
Those outside the Covenants to Moses and Abraham are still under the
Covenants of either Noah or Adam (or both)... and neither offer
salvation from sin...
And this fulfillment must continue to be worked out until
its full program is completed, before even the current state
of the heavens and earth is finally changed into its eternal
form. In fact, I believe that this final change coming to
the heavens and the earth is part of this fulfillment of the
Law of Moses.
The fulfillment of the Law of Moses, of every signification
of the dots and tittles of the Law, began to be fulfilled in
Christ. Every command was fulfilled in Christ's
righteousness and in Israel's unrighteousness. This means
that even though a relative few were obedient under the Law,
as a whole the nation failed under the Law, and every
command under the Law was therefore fulfilled in Israel's
failure and in their failure to accept Jesus as their
Messiah.
The righteousness of Christ fulfilled the Law because he
displayed the moral character that the Law pointed to, a
righteousness that was intended to be fulfilled in Christ
and not in Israel under the Law itself. Therefore, the Law
and its commands began to be fulfilled when Christ appeared
and continues to be fulfilled in all those who have received
Christ's spirit and righteousness. In the end humanity will
be resurrected into an eternal form, and heaven and earth
will also receive an eternal form, when the age of sin
passes away from existence.
randy
I think the physical heavens and earth will pass away, (2 Peter 3:3-12
et al) but otherwise can agree with your ideas.
Glenn
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
13 Aug 2007 07:18:37 PM |
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"Glenn"
randy
IMHO,
The Law of Moses was fulfilled, completed, with the Death
of the Messiah.
I will agree with you in this sense. Jesus encompasses the
entire fulfillment of the Law. But Jesus is still doing a
work of redemption through the Church. Redemption for sin
has been accomplished, yes. But part of Christ's work of
redemption involves the testimony of the Church to this
redemption so that the whole world will hear it. That is
still being fulfilled.
In other words, part of Christ's work of redemption is
actually getting the word of redemption out to the world
where we can receive it.
However, the covenant with Adam, Noah and Abraham, and the
Law of Moses,
have not yet "passed away."
We do differ there. I'm not sure what covenant with Adam you
refer to. I certainly don't think the Law of Moses is still
in effect. It was designed to keep Israel in the land,
spiritually blessed. That has ceased a long time ago.
Each covenant was 'superseded' or replaced by the
following covenant,
and those who do not accept or obey the next covenant are
under the
previous, until ALL pass away.
I think Noah's covenant was primarily for him, though the
world still benefits from God's promise to him that a flood
will never again destroy mankind. The Law of Moses was
designed strictly for Israel. These are time specific and
people specific covenants. Some of them were unconditional
promises. The Law of Moses was conditional, and could fail.
Even though the Law was designed to be a continuing
contract, it could fail.
Therefore, If one reject the New Covenant sealed by the
Blood of Christ,
then the Law of Moses is all you have -- and NONE can live
by the Law of
Moses because there is NO Levi Priest!!
As I said, the Law of Moses was specifically given to Israel
alone. And if it failed, it wasn't even good for Israel.
Those outside the Covenants to Moses and Abraham are still
under the
Covenants of either Noah or Adam (or both)... and neither
offer
salvation from sin...
Adam was given an unconditional mandate, but also had a
conditional agreement regarding the tree of knowledge.
I think the physical heavens and earth will pass away, (2
Peter 3:3-12
et al) but otherwise can agree with your ideas.
I'm familiar with your ideas and can "hang" with them too.
God bless,
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
14 Aug 2007 03:04:30 AM |
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randy a ecrit :
"Glenn"
randy
IMHO,
The Law of Moses was fulfilled, completed, with the Death
of the Messiah.
I will agree with you in this sense. Jesus encompasses the
entire fulfillment of the Law.
what a pity that the greek source of the Gospels knows nothing of your
blatherings.
the word in Greek is PLHRWSAI
as for the Pauline claimes, you do not understand those either
as the greek words relevant are `telos` and `eikon`
not suprising to me since none of you alleged "Word of God"
'believers' even LIKE your allaged revelation, much less adhere to its
instructions as presented.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
14 Aug 2007 09:17:26 AM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
I will agree with you in this sense. Jesus encompasses
the
entire fulfillment of the Law.
what a pity that the greek source of the Gospels knows
nothing of your
blatherings.
The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a prophetic
fulfillment. Not only is this true in the Greek language,
but it is also comparable to many other passages in the
gospels.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
14 Aug 2007 09:40:16 AM |
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randy a ecrit :
"Ha SATAN
randy
I will agree with you in this sense. Jesus encompasses
the
entire fulfillment of the Law.
what a pity that the greek source of the Gospels knows
nothing of your
blatherings.
The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a prophetic
fulfillment. Not only is this true in the Greek language,
but it is also comparable to many other passages in the
gospels.
randy
Matthew 13:48 the boat was "filled to the full"
Matthew 23:32 "fill to the full" the measure of your fathers
Mark 1:15 the time is "filled to the full" the kingdom is at hand
Luke 2:40 the child was "filled to the full" with wisdom
Luke 3:5 every valley shall be "filled to the full" and mountains
brought low
Luke 7:1 and when he had "filled to the full" his sayings
John 16:24 that joy may "fill to the full" your heart
Acts 5:28 you have "filled to the full" Jerusalem with your doctrine
thus the author quoting Yeshua in using the word plerow describes
torah
observance,
"to perfectly reach capacity"
as in the above examples
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
14 Aug 2007 11:07:19 PM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a prophetic
fulfillment. Not only is this true in the Greek language,
but it is also comparable to many other passages in the
gospels.
Matthew 13:48 the boat was "filled to the full"
Matthew 23:32 "fill to the full" the measure of your
fathers
Mark 1:15 the time is "filled to the full" the kingdom is
at hand
Luke 2:40 the child was "filled to the full" with wisdom
Luke 3:5 every valley shall be "filled to the full" and
mountains
brought low
Luke 7:1 and when he had "filled to the full" his sayings
John 16:24 that joy may "fill to the full" your heart
Acts 5:28 you have "filled to the full" Jerusalem with
your doctrine
thus the author quoting Yeshua in using the word plerow
describes
torah
observance,
"to perfectly reach capacity"
as in the above examples
Matthew 1:22 All this took place to *fulfil* what the Lord
had spoken by the prophet...
Matthew 2:17 Then was *fulfilled* what was spoken by the
prophet Jeremiah...
Matthew 4:14 that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah
might be *fulfilled*...
All these use the word pleroo. As you can see, they refer to
a prophetic fulfillment. The word can be used in terms of
fulfilling righteousness, fulfilling the Law, or filling to
capacity, as you say. It has to do with a complete filling.
Unfortunately, in our building project some of my most
valuable books have been lost. Included in them are my
Greek/English interlinear, my Greek Concordance, and my
Hebrew Concordance. Needless to say, I'm not very happy. I
would've liked to check the above references in the actual
source language. When we get things straghtened out around
here, maybe I'll find my books.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
15 Aug 2007 04:59:28 AM |
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randy napisal(a):
"Ha SATAN
randy
The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a prophetic
fulfillment. Not only is this true in the Greek language,
but it is also comparable to many other passages in the
gospels.
Matthew 13:48 the boat was "filled to the full"
Matthew 23:32 "fill to the full" the measure of your
fathers
Mark 1:15 the time is "filled to the full" the kingdom is
at hand
Luke 2:40 the child was "filled to the full" with wisdom
Luke 3:5 every valley shall be "filled to the full" and
mountains
brought low
Luke 7:1 and when he had "filled to the full" his sayings
John 16:24 that joy may "fill to the full" your heart
Acts 5:28 you have "filled to the full" Jerusalem with
your doctrine
thus the author quoting Yeshua in using the word plerow
describes
torah
observance,
"to perfectly reach capacity"
as in the above examples
Matthew 1:22 All this took place to *fulfil* what the Lord
had spoken by the prophet...
Matthew 2:17 Then was *fulfilled* what was spoken by the
prophet Jeremiah...
Matthew 4:14 that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah
might be *fulfilled*...
All these use the word pleroo. As you can see, they refer to
a prophetic fulfillment. The word can be used in terms of
fulfilling righteousness, fulfilling the Law, or filling to
capacity, as you say. It has to do with a complete filling.
Unfortunately, in our building project some of my most
valuable books have been lost. Included in them are my
Greek/English interlinear, my Greek Concordance, and my
Hebrew Concordance. Needless to say, I'm not very happy. I
would've liked to check the above references in the actual
source language. When we get things straghtened out around
here, maybe I'll find my books.
randy
as you can see 'fulfilled' has nothing to do with eradication or
'finishing'
one perfectly reaches capacity and it is sustained.
the christian propaganda reinterpretion of this passage claims that
once the torah 'instruction' is observed or practiced perfectly , it
is discarded.
the very opposite of what the speaker states.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
19 Aug 2007 10:56:55 PM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a
prophetic
fulfillment.
as you can see 'fulfilled' has nothing to do with
eradication or
'finishing'
one perfectly reaches capacity and it is sustained.
the christian propaganda reinterpretion of this passage
claims that
once the torah 'instruction' is observed or practiced
perfectly , it
is discarded.
the very opposite of what the speaker states.
That's not the primary point I was making. I was declaring,
"The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a prophetic
fulfillment." You seemed to deny that "plerow" has anything
whatsoever to do with "prophetic fulfillment." So I provided
a number of Scriptures that prove my point. Instead of
acknowledging my proof you go on to another argument.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
20 Aug 2007 04:19:43 AM |
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randy napisal(a):
"Ha SATAN
randy
The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a
prophetic
fulfillment.
as you can see 'fulfilled' has nothing to do with
eradication or
'finishing'
one perfectly reaches capacity and it is sustained.
the christian propaganda reinterpretion of this passage
claims that
once the torah 'instruction' is observed or practiced
perfectly , it
is discarded.
the very opposite of what the speaker states.
That's not the primary point I was making. I was declaring,
"The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a prophetic
fulfillment." You seemed to deny that "plerow" has anything
whatsoever to do with "prophetic fulfillment."
it is not i who deny it but the Greek language itself ;
`plerosai` means 'perfectly reach capacity' ; it has naught to do with
prophecy.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
21 Aug 2007 11:01:26 AM |
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"Ha SATAN
randy
That's not the primary point I was making. I was
declaring,
"The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a
prophetic
fulfillment." You seemed to deny that "plerow" has
anything
whatsoever to do with "prophetic fulfillment."
it is not i who deny it but the Greek language itself ;
`plerosai` means 'perfectly reach capacity' ; it has
naught to do with
prophecy.
I supplied the *proof* by citing passages in Matthew that
used "pleroo" in connection with prophetic fulfillment. You
just don't want to acknowledge this. I've said enough.
randy
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
21 Aug 2007 03:10:52 PM |
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randy wrote:
"Ha SATAN
randy
That's not the primary point I was making. I was
declaring,
"The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a
prophetic
fulfillment." You seemed to deny that "plerow" has
anything
whatsoever to do with "prophetic fulfillment."
it is not i who deny it but the Greek language itself ;
`plerosai` means 'perfectly reach capacity' ; it has
naught to do with
prophecy.
I supplied the *proof* by citing passages in Matthew that
used "pleroo" in connection with prophetic fulfillment. You
just don't want to acknowledge this. I've said enough.
randy
Agreed, You've said enough to allow 'Ha SATAN' to demonstrate that he
has no love of truth.
Glenn
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
26 Aug 2007 02:23:06 AM |
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"Glenn"
randy
I supplied the *proof* by citing passages in Matthew that
used "pleroo" in connection with prophetic fulfillment.
You
just don't want to acknowledge this. I've said enough.
randy
Agreed, You've said enough to allow 'Ha SATAN' to
demonstrate that he
has no love of truth.
I don't understand the guy, Glenn. He seems fairly smart,
and places lots of emphasis on an understanding of source
languages. My assumption was that he knew Hebrew and Greek
fairly well. He likes to use words indicating his knowledge
of these languages.
But when I state something as simple as "pleroo" is used in
Matthew in connection with prophetic fulfillment, he seems
to completely deny this. I have to agree with you--he just
doesn't love truth.
randy
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| User: "snowpheonix" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
26 Aug 2007 04:51:51 AM |
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On Aug 26, 5:23 pm, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:
"Glenn"
randy
I supplied the *proof* by citing passages in Matthew that
used "pleroo" in connection with prophetic fulfillment.
You
just don't want to acknowledge this. I've said enough.
randy
Agreed, You've said enough to allow 'Ha SATAN' to
demonstrate that he
has no love of truth.
I don't understand the guy, Glenn. He seems fairly smart,
and places lots of emphasis on an understanding of source
languages. My assumption was that he knew Hebrew and Greek
fairly well. He likes to use words indicating his knowledge
of these languages.
But when I state something as simple as "pleroo" is used in
Matthew in connection with prophetic fulfillment, he seems
to completely deny this. I have to agree with you--he just
doesn't love truth.
randy
Thats being dishonest Randy and you know it. Where the issue come to
play is that you say, "prophetic fulfillment" means the end of the
law. You add words that aren't in the bible to suite your own needs
so that you can fill justified in telling people that there are only
two commandments.
If your right about there only being two commandments and none of the
other laws are in effect, that means it's O.K. to murder strangers who
don't live near me. It's O.K. to commit adultry with whores we don't
know, after all, isn't that being loving if your not married?
You say only two commandments but what about this passage Randy?
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy
shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
shall not be forgiven unto men.
Are you going to now say three commandments? I realize that in your
pick and choose religion that you practice, you play god by saying
what is a valid law and what is not.
Since your not under the Law of Moses that means you take no part of
the Jewish Passover right? You are very clear that it is only for
Jews.
1Co 5:7 Therefore cleanse out the old leaven, so that you are a new
lump, as you are unleavened. For also Messiah our Passover was offered
for us.
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
27 Aug 2007 01:57:20 PM |
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"snowpheonix"
"randy"
But when I state something as simple as "pleroo" is used
in
Matthew in connection with prophetic fulfillment, he
seems
to completely deny this. I have to agree with you--he
just
doesn't love truth.
Thats being dishonest Randy and you know it....
No, I'm being completely honest.
....Where the issue come to
play is that you say, "prophetic fulfillment" means the
end of the
law....
You're making this into a broader issue than it really is.
I'm only making a single, isolated point here, that "pleroo"
is used by Matthew in connection with prophetic fulfillment.
That's all I'm saying. Ha Satan has been denying that
"pleroo" has any biblical association with prophetic
fulfillment. When I pointed out, specifically, that this
takes place in Matthew, I got no concession to my point, no
acknowledgement that this is so. Instead, I got a comparison
of two different greek words, one for "fulfill" and one for
"prophecy."
I'll stick with just this one issue for now, to avoid
confusion.
randy
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
26 Aug 2007 04:13:08 AM |
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randy wrote:
"Glenn"
randy
I supplied the *proof* by citing passages in Matthew that
used "pleroo" in connection with prophetic fulfillment.
You
just don't want to acknowledge this. I've said enough.
randy
Agreed, You've said enough to allow 'Ha SATAN' to
demonstrate that he has no love of truth.
I don't understand the guy, Glenn. He seems fairly smart,
and places lots of emphasis on an understanding of source
languages. My assumption was that he knew Hebrew and Greek
fairly well. He likes to use words indicating his knowledge
of these languages.
But when I state something as simple as "pleroo" is used in
Matthew in connection with prophetic fulfillment, he seems
to completely deny this. I have to agree with you--he just
doesn't love truth.
randy
I read the some of the exchanges, including that one. Sadly, some people
use their knowledge of words to avoid coming to an understanding of truth.
The Lord bless and lead you,
Glenn
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: FULFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT OF MOSES |
26 Aug 2007 08:44:06 AM |
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Glenn wrote:
randy wrote:
"Ha SATAN
randy
That's not the primary point I was making. I was
declaring,
"The Greek word for "fulfill" has the sense of a
prophetic
fulfillment." You seemed to deny that "plerow" has
anything
whatsoever to do with "prophetic fulfillment."
it is not i who deny it but the Greek language itself ;
`plerosai` means 'perfectly reach capacity' ; it has
naught to do with
prophecy.
I supplied the *proof* by citing passages in Matthew that
used "pleroo" in connection with prophetic fulfillment. You
just don't want to acknowledge this. I've said enough.
randy
Agreed, You've said enough to allow 'Ha SATAN' to demonstrate that he
has no love of truth.
if `plerosai` means what you claim it means then `katalusai` is
incoherent in the passage.
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