On 22 Dec 2006 23:53:27 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> shouted thusly:
First of all, let us note that you say, "it could be" a lot
in your messages. That means that you know you
haven't an answer and that you're making stuff up
as you go. (:
The truth is, that the problems I have presented with
your doctrine have sent you scrambling for made up
scenarios, in attempts to protect your doctrine at all
costs, without thought for placing the Scriptures first.
And you have ended up with a new Earth that has
sinners and a made up "new race of men, who may
not fall, like Adam did". (:
Azaliah said: you have sinners living on
the new heaven and earth
The scriptures have sinners on the new earth
(Is. 65:20, Rev. 22:15).
Thank you for admitting that you have now changed
your belief and now believe that sinners will be on
the new Earth that you have in the past claimed would
be for resurrected believers.
Azaliah said: This makes it no different than
the old
Then God is wrong to call it "new"? (Is. 65:17,
Rev. 21:1).
That's not an answer. That's a dodge.
Azaliah said: Sin and death are still around
That doesn't mean the new earth wasn't created
"new". Sometime after its creation, part or all of a
new race of men could fall from innocent immortality
like Adam and Eve fell, and so bring sin and death
onto the new earth.
They "could fall"? Another "could" scenario?
So now we have resurrected believers who could
fall from grace? We have believers already. So
what's the point? And how is it that when we are
saved, that as Jesus said, "No one can pluck us
out of His Father's hand", so our salvation is sure
and then we are resurrected and fall into sin?
God saves us and resurrects us into eternal life,
so that we can fall again, violating what Jesus
said, thus making Him a liar? Please! (:
Here is the reality of it... According to the Futurist
literalism, a new planet is created and resurrected
believers will live on it. And "death and Hades"
are thrown into the lake of fire. How then, can
there be any more death? These believers are
supposedly raised physically unto eternal life.
Yet you have them dying after turning to sin?
Huh? What?
Azaliah said: That means that you are claiming
that your literal belief about Revelation 21:1-4
is wrong, or you are claiming that Revelation
21:1-4 is wrong
No, Rev. 21:1-4 isn't wrong, nor is a literal
interpretation of it wrong, for Rev. 21:4 applies to
those faithful Christians of the old earth. Rev.
21:8, Is. 66:24 shows that on the new earth there's
still a 2nd death in the lake of fire for the
unfaithful of the old earth, and Is. 65:20 shows
that on the new earth there's still a 1st death for
at least part of a new race of men.
Where does it say, "this only applies to faithful Christians
and there will be sinners that it doesn't apply to"?
Especially in the Futurist "new planet of paradise with
only believers" doctrine? And why did you previously
argue in the past that there would be no more death?
Azaliah said: If your literalism is true, there is
a contradiction in the Bible
Not at all. There's no contradiction.
Yes, there is if it is literal and denying it isn't going
to change that fact.
The truth is, you have now made up a new scenario
on the fly, to try to protect your doctrine. You and
I both know that your Futurist believe did not have
a new earth full of sinners, until I pointed out the
problems with your doctrine. You immediately
made up a scenario out of thin air and pretend that
this is what the Bible says. Yet, that's what you claimed
about the last scenario. That is the problem with
Futurists. When they see a problem, they just make
stuff up, because they're doctrine is more important
to them than the Scriptures, so they twist the Scriptures
and don't care how stupid their doctrine ends up sounding,
nor how often they contradict themselves, trying to
protect their doctrine and can't even admit that they
have done that! And they'll actually pretend that it
sounds Scripturally sensible! (:
Azaliah said: Revelation says that there will
be no more pain
Rev. 21:4 applies to the faithful Christians of
the old earth, not to those in the lake of fire
(Rev. 21:8, cf. 14:9-11).
That's your claim. However, you're forgetting
the sinners you have running around on the
new planet Earth.
Azaliah said: The new Earth eventually ends up
being no better than the old and God is now
trapped inside the city, because He cannot live in
the midst of sin. If that's what He wanted, He'd
have moved here already.
God won't be trapped anywhere, for He's even in hell
(Ps. 139:8). And God won't want the new race of men
to fall into sin and death, just as He didn't want
Adam and Eve to fall into sin and death, but He's
not going to create a race of robots without any
free will; the new race of men will have to be
capable of sinning if they're to have free will.
Now we have "a new race of men"? You Futurists claim
that the Bible teaches that people won't even think about
living sinfully any more. They won't even remember the
old ways, remember?
Yet here you are, with "a new race of men" who can
and do sin and turn this supposedly literal new planet
into a world full of sin.
First you used to claim that it would be a new planet,
with only believers on it.
Next you had to figure out how to get around the problem
of sinners being outside the gates of the Holy city. So you
made up a scenario (one of your "it could be" statements)
in which God places the lake of fire outside the Holy city.
Then, when I pointed out that even that doesn't take care
of the fact that there are living sinners outside the gates of
the city, nor does it handle the fact that Isaiah said that
sinners would be dying on this new planet, you started
telling me how we're going to have "a new race of men",
who "could be" sinful. The truth is, they would have to
be, since the Bible says that sinners WILL be present!
So instead of your previous belief that God judges all of
the sinners and throws them into the lake of fire, you now
have "Christians in their resurrected, super, live forever
bodies" turning to sin and then dying off, even though
your doctrine has always called for bodies which no
longer die after resurrection and eternal paradise.
Basically, your idea of "paradise", is a planet upon which
there are sinners everywhere, who will surely be destroying
this new planet, as they did the old and living in sin and
God, holed up in the Holy city. You claim He won't be
and can come down and live in a sinful world forever.
If that is the case, then why would He need to bother
waiting? Why not come down now, to this one?
The truth is, that the Futurist looks forward to a new planet,
that will be paradise. No sin; no death and all unbelievers
judged and thrown into the lake of fire. You on the other
hand, when presented with problems for this doctrine,
just make stuff up on the fly and now try to claim that
resurrected believers will turn to sin and ruin the world
again, which would be the inevitable result of people
living sinfully, as we can see by looking around.
Worse of all, you cannot even bring yourself to admit that
making things up on the fly and radically changing your
belief, while pretending not to, is what you're doing. (:
Hmmm...
Azaliah said: does this mean that Jesus will have
to die for sins all over again, since it will be a
new Earth and a new race of "super, live long
sinners" who will need saving also? Or will God
just hole up in His city forever and let them run
the Earth?
God may give the sinners of the new earth some time
to repent, as He's given sinners of the old earth
thousands of years.
Sorry, that's not possible. These would be people who
have already been resurrected into eternal life and have
tasted of Christ. For them to turn their back on Him,
means that they are lost forever. And now, with your
plan, another judgment is required for them.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers
of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers
of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto
repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the
Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
You are stomping all over the Bible, with your made up
scenarios! (:
And it could be that a first
progenitor of the new race won't fall like Adam did;
sin might not happen until many generations down the
line, so that there will be some of the new race
without sin, without any need for redemption, while
others will have sin and need redemption. What God's
plan of redemption will be for the sinners of the
new earth has yet to be seen.
The "progenitor of a new race who won't fall like Adam did"?
HUH?!?
And now you are preaching "a new race without any need
for redemption"?
And now you are trying to claim that these sinners will
end up being a "new, sinless race"?
Problem: They are already called "sinners" in the Bible.
Therefore, according to your made up scenario, they
must fall. There is no "could be" about it! But you
don't care about that. You'll just make up something
else to try to work around that. (:
Azaliah said: according to your Futurist, literal
scenario, Christ can come to Earth and run the
whole planet for 1,000 years, but God can only
keep one city under control, even after He got rid
of all the sinners and made a new planet which had
only believers on it
It doesn't say only believers will be on the new
earth, for the unbelievers in the lake of fire will
be there (Rev. 21:8),
Sorry, but it says that those in the lake of fire have
experienced "the second death". They cannot be
the sinners who are being blocked from entering
the Holy city, in Rev 22:14-15.
and there will be sinners of
the new race there (Is. 65:20).
Isaiah 65:20 does not say one word about "a new race"!
You just make stuff up and insert it wherever you feel like!
God could let the
new earth outside of the city become sinful,
So now this "new creation of paradise" ends up
being just one city out of the whole planet?
God "could"? Thank you for admitting that your scenario
is a made up one, consisting of maybe's, designed to try
to get around the clear Scriptural problems for your literal
Futurist doctrine.
The truth is, that if the new Earth is like the old, in that
it will have sinners, then there would be no need for a
new Earth, since there are already sinners.
You made up this "new race who may not fall like Adam did"
and the rest of it as well.
Shame on you! (:
just as He will let the old earth outside of Jerusalem
become sinful again after Christ's 1,000 year reign
(Rev. 20:7-9);
So now God has set up a good thing on Earth and
then let it go to pot *TWICE*?!?
that doesn't mean that He will ever lose control
of anything, for He will intervene at the time of
His choosing.
So basically, your idea of "live forever paradise",
is God, creating a new world that turns sinful
and has to intervene *AGAIN*?!? Isn't that
what this whole "new Earth" thing was supposed
to do? But now, according to YOUR doctrine,
God will FAIL! It'll all turn to sin again, with
God holed up in the one city on Earth that
doesn't have any sin.
Oh but wait, you see, since these believers can
and will sin, that means that some who are
within the city will sin. After all, you said that
God will give them free will. Well, there goes
the Holy city! Darn!
Your made up on the fly scenarios are ridiculous!
<chuckle>
And once again, since you snip whatever presents a problem
for you, I have again pasted in the previous message, which
actually contains the last two:
#####################################
On 22 Dec 2006 03:41:14 -0800, while bungee jumping, "Read The
Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah said on Dec 21, 8:53 am [Re: Mt. 5:18,
"earth" is from the Greek "ge"]: "ge" means,
"soil", or "a region"
"Ge" can also mean "the whole of the terrene globe"
(Strong's Greek Dictionary, #1093).
Got to ya, huh? :)
The fact is, that the word "kosmos" is used
for the planet.
Azaliah said [Re: "ge"]: is not used in Koine
Greek to reference the planet
"Ge" can be used to reference the planet (e.g. Mt.
6:10,19, 11:25, 16:19, 18:18,19, 23:9, 24:35, 28:18).
You mean you claim that those passages describe the planet.
The main definition of the word "ge" is "soil", or "land".
Now read them that way. Jesus wasn't talking about the sea.
Ge never means the planet. The most it can mean,
is "the terrane" as opposed to the sea. It never means
the whole planet and is usually never meant to imply
any more than a region.
Azaliah said [Re: Rev. 21:1]: The sea represents
the Gentiles
In Rev. 21:1, "sea" is from the Greek "thalassa",
which can be used to refer to the oceanic part of
the earth (e.g. Rev. 14:7, 16:3, 18:17, 20:13).
Rev. 16:3, e.g., means that in the future every
creature in the ocean will die; it doesn't mean
that every Gentile will perish before the 2nd
coming, for there will be armies of Gentiles
gathered by the Antichrist to make war against
Christ at His return (Rev. 19:19-21).
That is your claim. If the sea is symbolic of Gentiles,
then of course the word for the sea would be used.
So telling me what the word means, says nothing.
Azaliah said [Re: Is. 65:17,20; Rev. 21:1,4]: will
the child die 100 years old? Or will there be no
more death?
By the time the new earth is created, there will be
no more death only for those who were faithful
Christians on the old earth, for they will all have
been resurrected or transformed into immortal,
physical resurrection-bodies like Jesus has (Lk.
24:39-43, Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:51-57, Rom.
8:23-25).
But for all those who were unfaithful on
the old earth, there will still be the second death,
which they will suffer forever in the lake of fire
(Rev. 2:11, 20:6,14,15, 21:8), which could be
brought to the new earth and placed somewhere
outside the gates of New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:14-15,
21:8) where people of the city can go forth and see
it (Is. 66:24, cf. Mk. 9:43-48, Rev. 14:9-11). The
people of the city could include a new mortal race
of men created for the new earth (Ps. 102:18, Rev.
21:24,26, 22:2), who will be very long-lived
compared to our current lifespan, and who will be
capable of sinning (Is. 65:17-20). Any of that race
that sins without repentance could be refused any
place in the city, so that Rev. 22:15 could refer
both to those in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8) and
to the unrepentant sinners among the new race.
Now you have sinners living on the new heaven and earth!
This makes it no different than the old! Sin and death are
still around! That means that you are claiming that your
literal belief about Revelation 21:1-4 is wrong, or you
are claiming that Revelation 21:1-4 is wrong.
Take your pick. :)
You now have believers living forever on the new earth
and sinners here at the same time, dying older. HUH?!?
Face it... You just MADE UP a scenario on the fly,
because you have been presented with a problem.
If your literalism is true, there is a contradiction
in the Bible. You now have the lake of fire being
brought to the supposedly literal new earth and
placed outside the city gates. Now why would God
do that? Especially when Revelation says that
there will be no more pain and how will the
former things have passed away, if they're placed
right in front of everyone?
You can't deal with what I presented and so,
you made up a scenario out of thin air. What
you said above, is NOT found in the Bible
and we BOTH know that!
You Futurists will make up anything, to save your
precious doctrine!!! (:
Nor have you answered the problem if where
the sinners came from, who are outside the gates
of the city and who aren't allowed to enter.
Where do these sinners come from? If *ALL* sinners
have been judged and thrown into the lake of fire?
If I believe in the literalism that you do, then here is
what the Bible describes in order:
1) The "Great White Throne Judgment" that you
mentioned happens and the bodily resurrection
and the judgment happens (Rev 20:11-13).
2) Sinners are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15).
This means that only the saved are left.
3) The new heaven and earth are created (Rev 21:1).
4) The New Jerusalem comes down (Rev 21:2).
5) God leaves Heaven and comes to live on
this new Earth (Rev 21:3).
6) Believers are put on this new earth, to live forever,
with no more tears and no more death and the
former things are gone, which would mean that
sin and death are gone (Rev 21:4).
But YOU have sinners here, on the new Earth.
YOU have death here on the new Earth. This
means that there will also be tears.
Now you can play your "it only applies to the believers"
game if you wish, but the fact is, that you just MADE
THAT UP, to avoid admitting that your literal approach
does not work! In fact, all you have done, is confirm
that it cannot be literal and must be symbolic, since
you have now been forced to acknowledge that there
will still be sinners present! Further down, I posted
what I previously posted and you snipped, which shows
that to take these passages literally instead of symbolically
of a spiritual Kingdom of God, pits the Bible against itself.
Given the literal approach, there is no way that sinners
could be here, since they were all thrown into the lake
of fire before the new Earth was created, unless you now
wish to claim that these believers begin to sin again and
to die again. This of course, means that the plan of God
according to Futurism, F-A-I-L-S !!! The new Earth
eventually ends up being no better than the old and God
is now trapped inside the city, because He cannot live in
the midst of sin. If that's what He wanted, He'd have
moved here already.
Yea, that's quite an accomplishment on God's part, huh?!
Now not only does He have to tolerate sin, He is trapped
in the city He created, while the world becomes sinful
once again! Gee buddy, does this mean that Jesus will
have to die for sins all over again, since it will be a new
Earth and a new race of "super, live long sinners" who
will need saving also? Or will God just hole up in His
city forever and let them run the Earth? Hmmmm....
It seems that according to your Futurist, literal scenario,
Christ can come to Earth and run the whole planet for
1,000 years, but God can only keep one city under
control, even after He got rid of all the sinners and
made a new planet which had only believers on it!
Please! (:
I will again post what I wrote earlier, which will include
your words and my responses to them, for the benefit
of others, so that they can see the issues that I raised
and just how dishonest you were and how much you
cut out, when you responded above:
******************************************
Rev. 21:1 didn't happen in 70 AD, for we're still on
the old earth which has a sea (cf. Rev. 14:7, 10:6).
The sea represents the Gentiles, as being separate
from the Jews, which are represented by the land
and which symbolism was also spoken of with the
Temple.
Now if you wish to claim that it is literally the planet
and the heaven, then please resolve the following
contradiction for us:
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered, nor come
into mind. There shall be no more thence an infant
of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days:
for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the
sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed."
- Isaiah 65:17,20
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the
first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea. And God shall wipe
away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be
no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither
shall there be any more pain: for the former things
are passed away." - Revelation 21:1,4
Please tell us, will the child die 100 years old?
Or will there be no more death?
This earth and its atmosphere and sea won't pass
away until the great white throne judgment, when
dead people will be resurrected to be judged (Rev.
20:11-15)
Thank you for admitting to that order of events. :)
So would you please resolve the following contradiction
for us, which is what it would be, if it were literal:
Before this supposed literal new heaven, earth & Jerusalem...
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of
life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15
So as you also said, the sinners are gone and then what
do we see?
Revelation 21:1-4
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there
was no more sea.
2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming
down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned
for her husband.
3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with
them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall
be with them, and be their God.
4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and
there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things
are passed away.
So now we have sinners judged and thrown into the lake
of fire and a new heaven and earth and Jerusalem and
then what do we see regarding this new Holy city?
Revelation 22:14-15
14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they
may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through
the gates into the city.
15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers,
and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and
maketh a lie.
So can you tell us please, who are these sinners outside
the gates of the city, considering that all of the sinners
have been thrown into the lake of fire?
Or do you contend that God's "new creation" that you are
waiting for, goes sour and turns into the same thing that
we already have now?
************************************************
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--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
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