Andrew W wrote:

"Turin" <TurinTurambar.1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139995266.649102.114620@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

"cdum" <cdumont@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:jMfIf.94$Y22.86@clgrps12...

A desire to destroy small delicate creations is anything but love.
Obviously Christians see this as love too.
Sending ones only son to their death in an attempt to solve

problems is not love either.

Christians are very strange people indeed.

Jesus was not the son of God, He was God in the flesh, the son of

is
what he was called. Luke.1:35.

...which makes even less sense. What kind of creator sacrifices

to
himself to save us from his own anger and wrath?

Maybe one with a split personality. That would explain the "mystery"
of the Trinity, along with Cdum's statement which seems to contradict
the conventional dogma on it.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life

his
friends. John.15:13.

That's purely a symbolic gesture that rarely needs to be actually

out, and certainly not to save one from ones own anger.

When God was asked why he will destroy all the wicked people in

second book of Ezra , he replied he will do it for the people that
love
him,

No body asked God such a thing. No body has ever provably spoken with
God.

No body even knows what God is.

If Christians were truly honest then they'd admit that they really

know what God is and they'd stop spreading these old sanctimonious

traditions.

The scripture backs you up, Dude:

1 John 4:12: "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another,
God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

That's a good verse actually. It proves that God is really a secular
humanist!
We only have to be good to each other, which most people are already, at
least here in Australia they are.

also,

20: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love
God whom he hath not seen?"


John is challenging their phony talk of doing right by a God that they
can't possibly know, when they don't even do right by each other.

It's in little moments like this one that the authors of the Bible
found it necessary to let slip important admissions about their
so-called "faith". The passage could be paraphrased to read like this:


"Hey, look: Deep inside, we all know that we're lying to each other
about all of this 'God' *****. It's just a made up way for us to weld
ourselves together in THIS life for reasons of survival - especially
now that our city-state has officially become Shitsville. So, just for
this moment, let's tell the truth that if we're not going to be true to
each other then there's no fucking point - period - in pretending
anything at all about a 'God'".

Yep.

tell me do you love God?

I love the creation force of the universe, but I don't love the

two
faced bible god (three faced actually).

if not don't blame him.

I don't. It would be pretty pointless blaming a story book character

anything.

God bless

I doubt whether the bible god has ever blessed any human being.
He started despising humans the day a fruit was picked from one of his
trees.
Obviously his trees mean more to him than his humans creations.

True, but if we're going to evaluate the Bible honestly, then we have
to admit that the real point of the tree(s) was a test of obedience.

Which proves that the bible god only wanted some servants/slaves.

Agreed.

Everybody wanted servants/slaves back then. (Why does an omnipotent being
need servants?)

Ego building through bullying. It allows Him/Her the gratification of
creating lesser beings in It's own image who can be contended with,
with a 100% victory rate. How about creating an equal being? Might
lose that little contest...

Its funny how the desires of God always mirrors the desires of the people

the time.
Its just like God's enemies always just happen to be the same as the
people's
enemies - the other country.
In the east God hates the west. In the west God hates the east.
God certainly is very convenient with many situations if nothing else.

Nice observation. A good illustration of this point is in the ministry
of Jesus.

Jesus said that He didn't come to change anything, but to fulfill it.
However, Deuteronomy 28 is the favorite chapter for the Prosperity Old
Testament Christian/Heretics. In it, you can read all kinds of
promises from God to the Israelites of abundance or of defeating their
enemies if they obeyed Him. Or, of the opposite if they turned from
Him. It' very worldly, as well as militaristic enough to support "eye
for an eye" theology.

Later, Jesus comes along, and He's saying things, like:


"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth
for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

"The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a
cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to
his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever
shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile,
go with him twain."

"And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness
of your heart he wrote you this precept."


While Jesus undoubtedly preached some great stuff that would improve
this world - I'm sorry, but - His doctrines don't square up with those
of the OT. And, simply citing "fulfillment of the law" or "softening
the heart" doesn't do enough to bring consistency to the two disparate
approaches to life either.

This is supposed to be the same God who ordered a man stoned to death
for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, shortly after the 10 commandments
were given out. The same God who punished the entire army of Israel
for Achan's sin and then had his entire family stoned to death with
him. (You usually don't get that part of it in the cleaned up versions
of the story, but it's there, in Joshua 7:24-25). How could the
teachings of Jesus fulfil that? They couldn't.


So, we have to ask ourselves: What changed?
Why did God apparently change His tune by sending Jesus?

I'd say that the fulfillment of the later part of Deuteronomy 28 was
what changed things. Israel never really did recover from the Assyrian
and Babylonian conquests. In fact, after the Assyrian conquest, the
part of the original kingdom which retained the national name of
"Israel" disappeared forever. The name after that was just "Judah".
(Or Judea). That's probably where the new name for the race, "Jews",
came from. Right there, we have a major change in the structure of the
theocracy; though, the kingdom actually split centuries before
Nebuchadnezzar.

Three empires later, they were being governed by the Romans - the most
oppressive of the four - with little hope in sight of ever again
reclaiming their roles as the world's chosen people. At this point,
most of them probably realized that their Old Testament was
unofficially defunct-o.

A way had to be concocted to introduce secular changes and religious
fluidity into a theocratic government without admitting it, so that it
could compete with secular empires like Rome. Jesus accomplished this
by preaching the spiritual "Kingdom of God". He divided authority
between God and Caesar. He preached: love thy enemy, renounce your
family for God's kingdom, die for a spiritual kingdom. Finally, He
died for it Himself as a necessary example, as a way to pretend that He
went on to take the kingship that His people would one day enter into,
and as a requirement to fulfil the law of Moses. Of course, there was
all kinds of symbolic bending and twisting of the old scriptures in
order to make it appear that Jesus was supposed to arrive to do all of
this.

This (especially, the love aspect) provided all of the necessary
fluidity to fight for change and stay organized without material
resources. It slowly worked in one sense: Christianity was eventually
absorbed by Rome and other societies through the blood of it's martyrs.


However, the Jewish nation was lost almost right away. Today's new
nation of Israel isn't made up of actual racial Jews, because there are
no more. Their seed was mingled with other peoples long ago, all
throughout the middle ages, straight up until today. All that can be
claimed anymore is a spiritual Jewish heritage based on practicing the
religion.

- Accepting the gentiles as followers of Christ was an afterthought,
and a Plan B after the Jews rejected the New Kingdom of God, but it
turned out to be what became all of Christianity.

- The diaspora was a profound change from the eternal line of David
that was supposed to have been established.

- The splitting of Israel and Judah was a profound change from God's
established chosen people.

- Installing the monarchy was a profound change from the rule of the
priesthood under the Angel of the Lord.

Yeah, you could say that the Judeo-Christian God has been changing to
suit the times for a very long time now.


How far do we stretch Deuteronomy 28 and the prophecies of Moses?
Apparently, as far as it takes. When is Jesus ever coming back? Oh,
He won't. Judeo-Christianity operates on a flexible time scale that
never makes good on it's promises. Instead, it simply waits until
God's people ***** up. Then it claims, "Well, you forfeited the
inheritance. So, we're going to do something new now".

Either that, or it waits until their neighbors (Satan's children) start
oppressing them. Then, it looks for - and finds - hidden sin that
normally gets winked at. It then claims that the tribulations that
their "God" can't rescue them from are actually being sent to them from
their God because they are being punished. Bunch of *****.

I'll go along with the idea of the test to the extent that Adam and Eve
blew it for themselves. That has internal consistency. However, when
we move on to the idea that this is justification for why punishment
got passed on down to the rest of us - their innocent children - then
the logic becomes circular, worthless and any religion will do.

Its good enough for the Christians. Everything makes sense to them.

Yeah, they tend not to be very educated.

Once they learn that little trick of speaking with authority, they
develop a corresponding attitude of sneering at whatever they don't
understand. Of course, books are high on that list.

Even The Bible is just a holy relic for them.

What about God's statements about not punishing the sons for the sins
of the fathers & vice versa (Deuteronomy 24:16)? Throughout The Bible,
God constantly admits to doing just what he proscribes against. In
fact, He proscribes both for and against it and in every way possible.

Its no problem for the Christians. They just employ some interpolation

conjecture to construct a different context for it which fits, or they

say that God is God and that he can contradict himself if he wants to.

Man, you've got that right. What is Christian today without a good
copy of Strong's Greek & Hebrew (providing he can read)? Basically, a
boozing incest-sympathizer who leans heavily on "by grace ye are saved"
...though, they all do when it comes right down to it.

Looked at from a whole perspective, God rigged life against humans with
a Tantalus-like existence simply because He's fucking sadistic. (I
think that's what really blows all of Judeao-Christianity into the
little pieces of phony ***** that make it all up, rather than any
humanistic rationale). But, looked at as an isolated scenario, the
intent behind the original sin was to test Man's integrity.


...Too bad for us God had none of His own.

If a car manufacturer were to have such a spectacular failure in its

phase of its prototypes as the Christian god did with man then it would

laughing stock in the industry.

Not for much longer, I'm afraid. At the rate safety/consumer standards
are being weakened for mega-profit$, the next version of The Bible that
comes out will be a corporate project. The story of Lazarus and the
rich man is going to have the rich man in Abraham's bosom while Lazarus
burns in hell as a welfare case. And, when the widow casts her two
mites into the temple treasury Jesus will call her a cheap *****.

And they say that God is perfect. Huh!! Obviously not the Christian god

its famous built-in "flaw" incorporated into the very first model and all
the way to the last.

Tell me about it. Romans 5:12 states that we have a built in sinful
nature. So, How is it my fault if I sin?

God has an answer to that in Romans 9:20. Basically it's the same
thing that was told Job, in order to browbeat him:

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the
thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"


...Like you say, God can contradict himself if He wants to.

- - -

This has been another Job 40:2 in the affirmative, with:

Turin


I have such sites to show you...
------------------------

http://members.fortunecity.com/turinturambar/
http://groups.google.com/group/Men_First

------------------------

"He who changeth, altereth, misconstrueth, argueth with, deleteth, or
maketh a lie about these words or causeth them to not be known shall
burn in hell forever and ever...."

-----

By the way, I like your website. Your About page is spooooky man!
Good stuff (I think).

Thanks, Dude. I've always liked the way that websites let you take an
artistic approach with multimedia. Something that blogs don't really
seem to offer...

--
Andrew W.

Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner

Its funny how the desires of God always mirrors the desires of the people of
the time.
Its just like God's enemies always just happen to be the same as the
people's
enemies - the other country.
In the east God hates the west. In the west God hates the east.
God certainly is very convenient with many situations if nothing else.

of Jesus.

Jesus said that He didn't come to change anything, but to fulfill it.

Nice observation. A good illustration of this point is in the ministry
of Jesus.

Jesus said that He didn't come to change anything, but to fulfill it.
However, Deuteronomy 28 is the favorite chapter for the Prosperity Old
Testament Christian/Heretics. In it, you can read all kinds of
promises from God to the Israelites of abundance or of defeating their
enemies if they obeyed Him. Or, of the opposite if they turned from
Him. It' very worldly, as well as militaristic enough to support "eye
for an eye" theology.

Later, Jesus comes along, and He's saying things, like:


"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth
for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

"The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a
cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to
his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever
shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile,
go with him twain."

"And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness
of your heart he wrote you this precept."


While Jesus undoubtedly preached some great stuff that would improve
this world - I'm sorry, but - His doctrines don't square up with those
of the OT. And, simply citing "fulfillment of the law" or "softening
the heart" doesn't do enough to bring consistency to the two disparate
approaches to life either.

This is supposed to be the same God who ordered a man stoned to death
for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, shortly after the 10 commandments
were given out. The same God who punished the entire army of Israel
for Achan's sin and then had his entire family stoned to death with
him. (You usually don't get that part of it in the cleaned up versions
of the story, but it's there, in Joshua 7:24-25). How could the
teachings of Jesus fulfil that? They couldn't.


So, we have to ask ourselves: What changed?
Why did God apparently change His tune by sending Jesus?

I'd say that the fulfillment of the later part of Deuteronomy 28 was
what changed things. Israel never really did recover from the Assyrian
and Babylonian conquests. In fact, after the Assyrian conquest, the
part of the original kingdom which retained the national name of
"Israel" disappeared forever. The name after that was just "Judah".
(Or Judea). That's probably where the new name for the race, "Jews",
came from. Right there, we have a major change in the structure of the
theocracy; though, the kingdom actually split centuries before
Nebuchadnezzar.

Three empires later, they were being governed by the Romans - the most
oppressive of the four - with little hope in sight of ever again
reclaiming their roles as the world's chosen people. At this point,
most of them probably realized that their Old Testament was
unofficially defunct-o.

A way had to be concocted to introduce secular changes and religious
fluidity into a theocratic government without admitting it, so that it
could compete with secular empires like Rome. Jesus accomplished this
by preaching the spiritual "Kingdom of God". He divided authority
between God and Caesar. He preached: love thy enemy, renounce your
family for God's kingdom, die for a spiritual kingdom. Finally, He
died for it Himself as a necessary example, as a way to pretend that He
went on to take the kingship that His people would one day enter into,
and as a requirement to fulfil the law of Moses. Of course, there was
all kinds of symbolic bending and twisting of the old scriptures in
order to make it appear that Jesus was supposed to arrive to do all of
this.

This (especially, the love aspect) provided all of the necessary
fluidity to fight for change and stay organized without material
resources. It slowly worked in one sense: Christianity was eventually
absorbed by Rome and other societies through the blood of it's martyrs.


However, the Jewish nation was lost almost right away. Today's new
nation of Israel isn't made up of actual racial Jews, because there are
no more. Their seed was mingled with other peoples long ago, all
throughout the middle ages, straight up until today. All that can be
claimed anymore is a spiritual Jewish heritage based on practicing the
religion.

- Accepting the gentiles as followers of Christ was an afterthought,
and a Plan B after the Jews rejected the New Kingdom of God, but it
turned out to be what became all of Christianity.

- The diaspora was a profound change from the eternal line of David
that was supposed to have been established.

- The splitting of Israel and Judah was a profound change from God's
established chosen people.

- Installing the monarchy was a profound change from the rule of the
priesthood under the Angel of the Lord.

Yeah, you could say that the Judeo-Christian God has been changing to
suit the times for a very long time now.


How far do we stretch Deuteronomy 28 and the prophecies of Moses?
Apparently, as far as it takes. When is Jesus ever coming back? Oh,
He won't. Judeo-Christianity operates on a flexible time scale that
never makes good on it's promises. Instead, it simply waits until
God's people ***** up. Then it claims, "Well, you forfeited the
inheritance. So, we're going to do something new now".

Either that, or it waits until their neighbors (Satan's children) start
oppressing them. Then, it looks for - and finds - hidden sin that
normally gets winked at. It then claims that the tribulations that
their "God" can't rescue them from are actually being sent to them from
their God because they are being punished. Bunch of *****.

I'll go along with the idea of the test to the extent that Adam and Eve
blew it for themselves. That has internal consistency. However, when
we move on to the idea that this is justification for why punishment
got passed on down to the rest of us - their innocent children - then
the logic becomes circular, worthless and any religion will do.

Its good enough for the Christians. Everything makes sense to them.

Yeah, they tend not to be very educated.

Once they learn that little trick of speaking with authority, they
develop a corresponding attitude of sneering at whatever they don't
understand. Of course, books are high on that list.

Even The Bible is just a holy relic for them.

What about God's statements about not punishing the sons for the sins
of the fathers & vice versa (Deuteronomy 24:16)? Throughout The Bible,
God constantly admits to doing just what he proscribes against. In
fact, He proscribes both for and against it and in every way possible.

Its no problem for the Christians. They just employ some interpolation and
conjecture to construct a different context for it which fits, or they just
say that God is God and that he can contradict himself if he wants to.

Man, you've got that right. What is Christian today without a good
copy of Strong's Greek & Hebrew (providing he can read)? Basically, a
boozing incest-sympathizer who leans heavily on "by grace ye are saved"
...though, they all do when it comes right down to it.

Looked at from a whole perspective, God rigged life against humans with
a Tantalus-like existence simply because He's fucking sadistic. (I
think that's what really blows all of Judeao-Christianity into the
little pieces of phony ***** that make it all up, rather than any
humanistic rationale). But, looked at as an isolated scenario, the
intent behind the original sin was to test Man's integrity.


...Too bad for us God had none of His own.

If a car manufacturer were to have such a spectacular failure in its testing
phase of its prototypes as the Christian god did with man then it would be a
laughing stock in the industry.

Not for much longer, I'm afraid. At the rate safety/consumer standards
are being weakened for mega-profit$, the next version of The Bible that
comes out will be a corporate project. The story of Lazarus and the
rich man is going to have the rich man in Abraham's bosom while Lazarus
burns in hell as a welfare case. And, when the widow casts her two
mites into the temple treasury Jesus will call her a cheap *****.

And they say that God is perfect. Huh!! Obviously not the Christian god with
its famous built-in "flaw" incorporated into the very first model and all
the way to the last.

Tell me about it. Romans 5:12 states that we have a built in sinful
nature. So, How is it my fault if I sin?

God has an answer to that in Romans 9:20. Basically it's the same
thing that was told Job, in order to browbeat him:

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the
thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"


...Like you say, God can contradict himself if He wants to.

- - -

This has been another Job 40:2 in the affirmative, with:

Turin


I have such sites to show you...
------------------------

http://members.fortunecity.com/turinturambar/
http://groups.google.com/group/Men_First

------------------------

"He who changeth, altereth, misconstrueth, argueth with, deleteth, or
maketh a lie about these words or causeth them to not be known shall
burn in hell forever and ever...."

-----

By the way, I like your website. Your About page is spooooky man!
Good stuff (I think).

Thanks, Dude. I've always liked the way that websites let you take an
artistic approach with multimedia. Something that blogs don't really
seem to offer...

--
Andrew W.

Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner

God never did anything wrong or mean. I used to feel the same way that
many of you feel but more. I felt that men were evil and deserved
death and I wished it upon you. I wanted everyone dead because I
thought that everyone was evil and I hate evil. I was right about one
thing. We are evil and we do deserve death. You people are so lucky
that God doesn't take your life away from you right now, or make your
life a misery until your dying day. Only through His mercy are you
even allowed to live this life at all and for those without faith in
him he generally allows you to be rewarded for what little goodness you
have here on earth untill you die. But your death will be final. The
grave is silent. Those of us whom God finds worthy will live forever.
God is not evil, instead he is perfectly just. His justice is perfect.
God is Love, and evil is not through love but exists as an absence of
love.