God's Amazing Love

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Carl"
Date:	12 Jan 2008 12:23:14 AM
Object:	God's Amazing Love

God loves us. It's a truth that no one can deny. It's also a truth that has
no boundaries since God's love is infinite. Dr. Charles Stanley touches upon
God's wondrous and perfect love for us.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
God's Amazing Love
By Dr. Charles F. Stanley
http://www.intouch.org/
We can imagine feelings of panic sweeping through the woman's mind. Heavy
footsteps outside the door announced the entry of her intruders even before
they crossed the threshold. The woman knew she was caught. Why had she not
seen this coming? There was no place to run now. Instantly, she recognized
the men who entered the room. They were from the temple, and if they had
their way, she would face much more than a few revealing questions raised in
a civil court. In fact, her fate was sealed unless there was a miraculous
intervention.
The woman caught in adultery had been living without true love for so long
that she no longer dared to dream that one day she would find it. More than
likely, she begged for mercy, but her captors only tightened their hold. She
would not gain freedom at their hands, nor did she expect it. She knew who
she was. She was aware of her sinful state and often had overheard the
whispered comments of others.
The fact was, she had often rehearsed their words in her mind. Truly, she
was despised and hopelessly lost. Sin had captured her heart, her being, and
it was not about to show her any mercy-not now, not ever. That was until she
met the Savior-the God of love and the God who cares deeply about each one
of us.
Without Love-Without Hope
John tells us that Jesus was teaching in the temple the morning this group
of scribes and Pharisees entered, bringing with them the woman caught in
adultery (John 8:1-11). At first the scene was chaotic. There was a rush of
words and quick accusations. Then their captive was delivered at the
Savior's
feet. "Teacher," one Pharisee offered, "this woman has been caught in
adultery, in the very act" (John 8:4).
Sin always isolates. It prevents us from enjoying God's fellowship, while
creating an unbearable sense of loneliness and fear within our lives. What's
more, it divides our minds and changes the focus of our hearts. Instead of
turning in God's direction, we follow after the very things He deems
sinful-things that bring unspeakable heartache and sorrow to our lives.
No one could have felt more isolated and fearful than this woman. However,
this experience of extreme shame and brokenness ultimately led to her
salvation. As horrible and repulsive as the scene was, it became a place of
awesome wonder and grace because Jesus was with her. One look into the
Savior's eyes and she realized no matter what came next, she could face it.
The temple leaders stepped back and waited for the Lord's reply. They were
all in on a scheme, and Jesus knew it. Everyone present was watching to see
if He would convict a person who was obviously guilty or allow her to go
free.
The temple rulers' religious clamor was meant to ensnare Jesus, should He
deny His commitment to the Law of Moses. But instead of falling into their
trap, Jesus offered this woman exactly what every human heart longs to
receive-love and forgiveness.
The goal of God's love is not to approve of our sin. It is to transform our
lives through faith in His Son. The Lord knew the Law demanded this woman's
death. Yet He would not condemn her (John 8:11). From a human standpoint,
she was guilty as charged. However, from God's perspective, she was a sinner
who was about to become a person saved by His grace.
Therefore, He issued an invitation: "He who is without sin among you, let
him be the first to throw a stone at her" (John 8:7). No one came forward.
Those present had sinned and were in need of God's grace for their own
lives. Yet they were blinded by their pride and did not realize they also
needed God's love and forgiveness.
Like these men, you may be thinking you have lived your entire life without
becoming involved in sin of this nature. However, all sin hurts the heart of
God. A careless remark, a prideful thought, an angry word spoken in haste, a
bitter and unforgiving spirit are all as deadly as the sin this woman
committed. The reason: sin committed at any level prevents us from
experiencing the goodness of God's fellowship. It robs us of the inner
peace, contentment, and joy that He offers every-one who comes to Him. It
also creates division between us and those we love.
While Jesus was saddened by the way this woman came to Him, He saw the
potential her life contained. And that is also how He looks at us. No matter
how great our sin appears, God is not ashamed to offer us the greatest gift
we could ever receive-His eternal love, which is far greater than even the
worst sins we could ever commit.
Our heavenly Father loves us, even when we fall short of His plan and
purpose. His Spirit convicts us of our sinful actions (John 16:7-8), and His
infinite love leads us back to the place He wants us to be (2 Corinthians
5:14). Never be frightened to stand before His throne of grace and mercy.
Since you have sinned, you need to know that you have a Savior who loves you
with an eternal love. And there is no love greater than His.
However, many people have never opened their hearts to the Savior or to the
possibility that He loves them even though their lives have been riddled
with sin. They struggle through life, battling feelings of guilt and shame.
We can tell by the way this woman addressed Jesus that she was now ready to
leave behind her old way of life. When the Savior asked if anyone was left
who accused her, she answered, "No one, Lord" (John 8:11). She was
addressing Him as her Lord and Master.
The Goal of God's Love
There are people who spend a lifetime searching for love but have never
experienced it because they fail to realize it has been available to them
all along. Many times, God allows the consequences of our sin to catch up
with us so He can gain our attention and bring us to a point of confession,
where we cry out for His forgiveness. You do not need to spend another day,
hour, or even minute living without love. The moment you lift your eyes to
look into God's and confess your sin, He will forgive you. The Lord will
save you and transform your life while giving you a sense of hope that will
never fade. In fact, no one will ever love you more than He does.
God's love is eternal.
Long before you were born, the Lord had already determined to love you. No
sin is strong enough to deter His love.
His love reaches out to the lost and to those who are hurting and alone in
sin.
God pursues us with an everlasting love. He knows the times we struggle with
temptation and the loneliness we face as a result of our actions. When we
cry out to Him, He hears our prayers and answers our call for help (Psalm
107:13; 1 John 1:9).
Divine love does not condemn us.
Jesus said that He came to earth to save those who are trapped in sin. We
are set free from the slavery of sin when we follow Him and learn to live
our lives according to His principles (Romans 8:1; John 15).
God's love is incomprehensible.
It has no beginning or end and is beyond anything we can imagine. It is
greater than our greatest sin. Therefore, no matter where we have been or
what we have done in the past, His love toward us remains consistent,
committed, and unrestrained.
His love never changes.
It is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He does not wait for our lives
to straighten out before He loves us; He proved His love even while we were
lost in sin (Romans 5:8).
The Lord's love covers.
After Adam and Eve sinned and were banished from the Garden of Eden, God
made garments for them out of animal skins (Genesis 3:21). This was the
first time blood was shed as atonement for sin. The last and final time was
on Calvary's cross.
God loves us without restriction.
There are no limits to divine love. If God loved us on the basis of our
performance or conduct, then His love would be conditional, but that is not
the case. The love of God is unconditional and indefinable.
God's love is sacrificial.
Jesus died for your sins-every single one, including the wrongs you
committed years ago and those you will commit in the future. The goal of His
love is not to approve of your sin, but rather to change the way you live
your life. He never keeps score of how many times we have fallen or failed.
He wants us to learn to love Him so much that we would desire to leave sin
behind and follow Him in love and purity. This is His invitation to you. It
is the same one He gave the woman who was caught in adultery: "I do not
condemn you . . . Go. From now on sin no more" (John 8:11).
One of our greatest needs is to know we are loved-to feel certain deep down
that someone loves us, cares for us, and has our best interest at heart.
That is how God designed us. He wants us to know He loves every single one
of us with a passion-ate intensity too deep for words. And we experience His
love when we willingly surrender to His call to receive Him as Savior, Lord,
and Friend.
God seeks our surrender because:
He loves us and desires our fellowship and worship.
As long as we hold anything back from God, we cannot know Him completely or
fully experience His love. When we surrender to Him, we get all of Him.
He wants our service for His kingdom to be fruitful.
The more we get to know and love Jesus, the more effective our service will
be and the more impact our lives will have.
He waits for the freedom to bless us.
God is omnipotent but will not violate His own principles. He draws us to
Himself so we can experience His love and forgiveness. He asks for our
willing surrender so that He can give us the best blessings He has to offer.
So why does anyone resist surrendering to God?
Pride is the key reason most people resist surrender. They think they know
better than God and can handle their life in a more fitting way than He can,
so they keep Him at arm's length.
Others do not surrender because they fear what He will do (or not do) for
them. They think that if they give Him control, He'll make them do exactly
what will make them most miserable. Still others refuse to surrender to
Christ because they believe Satan's lie, which tells them that God is
judgmental and will punish them for their mistakes.
All of this is completely false! God always has our best in mind. He will
refuse us no good thing when we gladly submit to his will (Romans 8:32). It
simply makes sense to surrender to God, because when we do, we grow close to
Him-His highest priority for us-and we begin to have an impact on our world.
.

User: "Read The Bible"
Title: Gods Amazing Love	12 Jan 2008 02:00:51 AM

Carl said on Jan 11, 10:23 pm:
... God's wondrous and perfect love for us.

"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet
peradventure for a good man some would even dare to
die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much
more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall
be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were
enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of
his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be
saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy
in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have
now received the atonement" (Romans 5:7-11).
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent
not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved. He that
believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of
God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come
into the world, and men loved darkness rather than
light, because their deeds were evil. For every one
that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to
the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he
that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds
may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God"
(John 3:16-21).
"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's
elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that
condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that
is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God,
who also maketh intercession for us.
|
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall
tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine,
or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,
-For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are
accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all
these things we are more than conquerors through him
that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither
death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor
powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor
height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be
able to separate us from the love of God, which is in
Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:33-39).
.

User: "Bill M"
Title: Re: Gods Amazing Love	12 Jan 2008 11:43:11 AM

"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:776f938c-382d-45f1-8edf-09951d9e9dcf@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Carl said on Jan 11, 10:23 pm:
... God's wondrous and perfect love for us.

This is love???
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why does he permit over 2,000,000 innocent children to die of
starvation every year? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate
into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious
affiliation?
God supposedly created the world like it is, to punish man for Adam and Eve's
'original sin'. Why does he also punish supposedly innocent children and
animals with thousands of diseases, birth defects, starvation and to be
eaten by other animals?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, wolves, poisonous snakes,
stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring
and benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully
kill and eat other animals to survive?
The world of life abounds in "cruel" behaviors. Numerous predators eat their
prey alive; parasites destroy their living hosts from within; in many
species of spiders and insects, the females devour their mates.
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
INNOCENT children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.
These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of
all religious persuasions.
Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation
systems including flying through the air.
Man has created a wonderful medical and drug system and improved housing and
food production. The result of MAN'S inventiveness has
DOUBLED the average life span. None of this was created by any gods.
Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and
torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think
he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven? And why does
he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our dead parents,
siblings and friends? (Or this god?)
There are thousands of different religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE
VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY of these gods. ALL god
beliefs are based on the unsubstantiated 'opinions and claims of errant men.
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about the
welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods!
I challenge god believers to supply ANY objective verifiable evidence that
their god actually exists except in their over active imaginations.
Who will accept the challenge???
.

User: "Sugien"
Title: Re: Gods Amazing Love	13 Jan 2008 03:10:55 PM

"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:xobij.39248$L27.22902@bignews9.bellsouth.net...

"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:776f938c-382d-45f1-8edf-09951d9e9dcf@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Carl said on Jan 11, 10:23 pm:
... God's wondrous and perfect love for us.

Natural laws, do you rebel or say that the law of gravity should be changed
by God so that things fall up instead of down? Of course not. The why that
the physical laws work do so because God created the earth to function as a
complete system. God also gave man free will and intelligence to over come
the elements. Man however chooses to spend most of his resources and brain
power on conceiving and implementing things to keep him entertained in his
spare time. Do your realize that if the worlds population were to take all
the money spent on a *SINGLE* weekend world wide for entertainment and put
those funds into an interest bearing account that the proceeds would ensure
that NO ONE would ever go hungry or homeless on the entire planet for ever?
Likewise were countries to spend as much money and resources encouraging and
recruiting and promoting science and math as what they do on sports then I
dare say that most all if not all of the debilitating diseases could be made
a thing of the past. In Genesis it says:
Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have
all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be
restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
In other words anything man can imagine they can do.

Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully
developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born
idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth
and others pauper poor? Why does he permit over 2,000,000 innocent
children to die of starvation every year? Why are his human creations
designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age
regardless of their religious affiliation?

See above for most of this such as starvation and that man could if he so
chose make this world quite a nice place to live in for *everyone* but man
was given free will and most choose to only help *their self* and no one
else; but to address the children dyeing at birth, God knows the future and
who is to say that those children being born was not a blessing? As to why
different people being born with handicaps, such is nature and God offers
and tells us that if we accept him in the next world all these things will
be a thing of the past. A lot of the birth defects are a result of
something in the environment which *man* has put there and is responsible.
Man does this to make a quick buck with not regard for the future.

God supposedly created the world like it is, to punish man for Adam and
Eve's 'original sin'. Why does he also punish supposedly innocent children
and animals with thousands of diseases, birth defects, starvation and to
be eaten by other animals?

See above; but basically man has the ability to stop starvation and to
create cures; but because of his wanting to acquire wealth he is blinded to
humanitarian issues.

Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, wolves, poisonous snakes,
stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.?

It is called diversity of life and they are all created to be part of a
*whole* and as such are part of a system and most always if not for man they
would not be a problem for man.

Why did this caring and benevolent god create animals (including man) that
need to painfully kill and eat other animals to survive?

Acutely man does NOT need to kill and eat other animals to survive, the
animals however are part of whole system. Why God created them to survive
by eating each other I don't know; but I suspect that the animals like man
could survive by eating plants; but they do not; because it is not their
nature to do so; but then I am no expert and maybe they would be better off
eating plants.

The world of life abounds in "cruel" behaviors. Numerous predators eat
their prey alive; parasites destroy their living hosts from within; in
many species of spiders and insects, the females devour their mates.

This is just as what they were created, and mans finite mind is incapable of
figuring out the infinite mind of God and why he created some things as they
are.

World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.

World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.

Man is responsiabel for that not God

The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
INNOCENT children!

Had mans free will not been engaged and some men wanting more profit those
that were forced to live there would have been living in more adequate
housing. Also were it not for man wanting to make more money houses could
have been designed to withstand such events.

There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally innocent children.

The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.

Had man not been more inclined to gain wealth instead of knowledge man could
most likely have created cures to such things long ago. Mans development of
medicine was hindered by his excluding those very persons that may have had
the brain cells to create a cure. Who is to say that the child growing up
in poverty had mans free will not interfered could have grown up and been
educated and created cures. I know that here some non-believers will say
that relegion was responsiable for hindering science and although that may
well be true, that is *still* mans free will and men in relegion using their
free will to do things that should not have been done.

Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.

These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of
all religious persuasions.

see above

Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and
transportation systems including flying through the air.

Man has created a wonderful medical and drug system and improved housing
and food production. The result of MAN'S inventiveness has

DOUBLED the average life span. None of this was created by any gods.

God gave man the free will and intelligence and *mind* to create those
things. I don't see any other animals creating such things. If humanity
were just a fluke of evolution I would suspect in all the eons which
evolutionists say is needed to accomplish such thing that there was only
*one* such fluke?

Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean
and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you
think he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven? And
why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our
dead parents, siblings and friends? (Or this god?)

God is loving and God wants us to belive by *faith* where there is evidance
there is *no* faith.

There are thousands of different religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE
VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY of these gods. ALL
god beliefs are based on the unsubstantiated 'opinions and claims of
errant men.

God wants us to belive by *faith* where there is evidance there is *no*
faith.

If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about
the welfare of the creatures on Earth.

Wrong

The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods!

Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. There is no objective
evidence one way or the other about God; because that is the way God wants
it.

I challenge god believers to supply ANY objective verifiable evidence that
their god actually exists except in their over active imaginations.

Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. Likewise although there is
evidence for the human brain there is no evidence for the human mind, that
is the part that says to its self "I think there for I am". An ape likewise
has a brain; but has NO mind and doesn't say to its self "I think there for
I am"

Who will accept the challenge???

Who is man to ask why God does anything? How can a finite fallible weak
being, comprehend a infinite, infallible all powerful being? I however will
put forth a few thoughts on this. All and I do mean *ALL* of man's
inhumanity to man can be laid at mans door step and NOT Gods. All the wars
are mans doing and NOT Gods. God gave man freewill and man has in the past,
present and most likely will continue into the future to kill each other.
Natural disasters are just that natural disasters or laws of nature and as
such are doing
These are just *my* thoughts I am in no way qualified to take up any such
challenge. I believe in God and I study most every day. I study not only
my bible and various translations of it; but also the dead sea scrolls,
Gnostic texts; but also texts of other religions; because I am of the mind
that sometimes other cultures and times have believed in God but by another
name. I am no expert, no not even close; but I do know what I believe and I
also know enough to know that I don't know enough to try and lead others
into belief. I can only put forth my beliefs and or tell of what I have
found to be true from what I have read or experienced. Belief is NOT a
destination but rather a journey down a rocky road of contemplation, study,
fellowship, experimentation, mediation introspection and debate.
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
............ /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
-------- \}
.

User: "Read The Bible"
Title: Re: Gods Amazing Love	13 Jan 2008 02:05:11 AM

Bill M asked on Jan 12, 9:43 am:
This is love???
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and
caring intelligent designer, create Plagues,
Tsunamis, Tornadoes ...

Why ignore all the good, all the daily blessings God
brings to His creatures?
"He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run
among the hills. They give drink to every beast of
the field: the wild asses quench their thirst. By
them shall the fowls of the heaven have their
habitation, which sing among the branches. He
watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is
satisfied with the fruit of thy works.
|
He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and
herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth
food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the
heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and
bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
|
The trees of the LORD [YHWH] are full of sap; the
cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted; Where the
birds make their nests: as for the stork, the fir
trees are her house. The high hills are a refuge for
the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies"
(Psalms 104:10-18).
All the blessings that we have come from God: our
houses, our food, our clothing, our health, even
our very breaths and heartbeats. How ungrateful we
humans are to Him.
---
Even when God brings suffering upon us because of
our sins, this can be out of His love for us:
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous
therefore, and repent" (Revelation 3:19).
"Ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh
unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou
the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art
rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he
chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he
receiveth.
|
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as
with sons; for what son is he whom the father
chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and
not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our
flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the
-Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a
few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but
he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his
holiness.
|
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be
joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it
yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto
them which are exercised thereby" (Hebrews 12:5-11).
---
And a lot of suffering which people suffer doesn't
have to be from God; it can be from Satan. Jesus came
to set people free from suffering caused by Satan and
demons:
"Behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of
infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together,
and could in no wise lift up herself. And when Jesus
saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her,
Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And he
laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made
straight ... ought not this woman, being a daughter of
Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen
years, be loosed from this bond...?" (Luke
13:11-13,16).
"They brought unto him [Jesus] many that were
possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits
with his word, and healed all that were sick"
(Matthew 8:16-17).
"And they brought unto him all sick people that were
taken with divers diseases and torments, and those
which were possessed with devils, and those which
were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he
healed them" (Matthew 4:24).
"Great multitudes came unto him, having with them
those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many
others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he
healed them: Insomuch that the multitude wondered,
when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be
whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and
they glorified the God of Israel" (Matthew 15:30-31).
"And when he had called unto him his twelve
disciples, he gave them power against unclean
spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of
sickness and all manner of disease" (Matthew 10:1).
---
And most suffering doesn't have to be from God or
from Satan; it can just be the natural result of the
fall of man into sin, which dragged creation itself
into a state of suffering. But this suffering is just
temporary, and will be replaced by a glorious new
creation with resurrected bodies and no suffering:
"The sufferings of this present time are not worthy
to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed
in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature
waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For
the creature was made subject to vanity, not
willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected
the same in hope, Because the creature itself also
shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For
we know that the whole creation groaneth and
travaileth in pain together until now. And not only
they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits
of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within
ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the
redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but
hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth,
why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we
see not, then do we with patience wait for it"
(Romans 8:18-25).
"For which cause we faint not; but though our
outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day
by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a
moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and
eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the
things which are seen, but at the things which are
not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;
but the things which are not seen are eternal"
(2 Corinthians 4:16-18).
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the
first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy
city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he
will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor
crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the
former things are passed away. And he that sat upon
the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And
he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and
faithful" (Revelation 21:1-5).

Bill M asked:
Why does he permit over 2,000,000 innocent children
to die of starvation every year?

That's our fault, not His. He has provided the earth
with more than enough food to feed everyone; it's
we humans who hoard the food and don't share it with
the starving. Or, even when we do donate food to the
starving, it's evil humans ruling countries or rebel
militia leaders terrorizing parts of countries who
steal the donated food and don't allow it to reach
the starving in the areas under their control. God
permits this because He permits free will. If He took
away against our will the extra food out of our
supermarkets and refrigerators and gave it to the
starving, or if He took away against our will the
extra money out of our bank accounts and gave it to
relief agencies to feed the starving, how we would
howl against Him.

Bill M asked:
Why did this caring and benevolent god create
animals (including man) that need to painfully kill
and eat other animals to survive?

Even that must have been the natural result of the
fall of man into sin, for before the fall man and
all animals ate only plants:
"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb
bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the
earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of
a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of
the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the
earth, wherein there is life, I have given every
green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every
thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very
good" (Genesis 1:29-31).
Sometime in the future, this vegetarianism will be
restored by God, at least for all the animals:
"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the
lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall
be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor
destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD"
(Isaiah 65:25).

Bill M said:
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives

We can't blame God for what we stupid, sinful humans
do to each other by our own free will.

Bill M said:
There are thousands of different religious and god
beliefs but NO OJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for
the actual existence of ANY of these gods

The objective verifiable evidence for the existence
of the God of the Bible is Creation itself, so that
there is no excuse for any men denying His existence:
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest
in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the
invisible things of him from the creation of the
world are clearly seen, being understood by the
things that are made, even his eternal power and
Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because
that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as
God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
(Romans 1:19-22).
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God"
(Psalms 14:1).
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the
firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day
uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth
knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where
their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out
through all the earth, and their words to the end of
the world" (Psalms 19:1-4).

Bill M said:
The objective evidence is that no gods created man
but quite the opposite; that man created gods

There is no objective evidence that proves that the
God of the Bible did not create men:
"Know ye that the LORD [YHWH] he is God: it is he
that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his
people, and the sheep of his pasture. Enter into his
gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with
praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name. For
the LORD [YHWH] is good; his mercy is everlasting;
and his truth endureth to all generations" (Psalms
100:3-5).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)

Doug said on Jan 12, 6:38 pm:
Should God prevent wars? Hmm.. perhaps he will!

When Jesus returns from heaven and rules the earth,
He will cause human warfare to cease:
"He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong
nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords
into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up a sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall
sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree;
and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the
LORD [YHWH] of hosts hath spoken it" (Micah 4:3-4).

Doug said:
There are prophecies in the Bible that show God
will prevent the complete destruction of mankind

If God didn't cut short the coming tribulation by
the second coming of Jesus, no flesh would survive on
the planet:
"Except that the Lord had shortened those days, no
flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom
he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days ... in
those days, after that tribulation ... then shall
they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with
great power and glory. And then shall he send his
angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark
13:20,24,26-27).
"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).
.

User: "Doug"
Title: Re: Gods Amazing Love	12 Jan 2008 08:38:54 PM

Bill M wrote:

"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:776f938c-382d-45f1-8edf-09951d9e9dcf@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Carl said on Jan 11, 10:23 pm:
... God's wondrous and perfect love for us.

You have lumped together many different things here. But some
of these events are just the way nature works. The same laws
that cause disasters and diseases can also have benefits for us.

There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?

Some would say it would be cruel to prevent people from having
as many kids as they like, even when they can't support them.

Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth?

Death is certainly an enemy that needs to be dealt with.

Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?

Very tragic. Those who have good health, and all these
facilities intact, need to appreciate and treasure it.

Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence?

People with super intelligence might be able to contribute to
solving man's problems, right?
Aren't there are other qualities that people can have, even
when they are lacking intelligence?

Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor?

Should reproduction be limited to the rich?

Why does he permit over 2,000,000 innocent children to die of
starvation every year?

The freedom that men and women have to reproduce, even when
they are unable to care for their offspring, is one reason so
many infants die.

Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate
into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious
affiliation?

The lack of war could be one reason why people to survive to
old age.

God supposedly created the world like it is, to punish man for Adam and Eve's
'original sin'. Why does he also punish supposedly innocent children and
animals with thousands of diseases, birth defects, starvation and to be
eaten by other animals?

Wrong question, as Genesis 1:26 says God planned to make man
"in his image" and so it was necessary to give him the ability
to choose, and make decisions.

You might have also mentioned birds, and the ability of some
to sing.
Wolves are amazing animals.
Have you ever watched a snake move, and examined the patterns
on its skin? There are also dogs, bighorn sheep, whales, and
dinosaurs. Aren't they all simply wonderful creatures?

Why did this caring
and benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully
kill and eat other animals to survive?

Pain is good, as it helps us to avoid injury. The disease of
leprosy causes a lot of disfigurement, because people lose
sensation in their extremities, and injure themselves.

The world of life abounds in "cruel" behaviors. Numerous predators eat their
prey alive; parasites destroy their living hosts from within; in many
species of spiders and insects, the females devour their mates.

Yes, their lives are sacrificed to promote the survival of the
species.

World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.

Yes, Catholics killed Catholics, Protestants killed
Protestants, etc. It was supposed to be the "war to end all wars".

World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.

They did not learn the lesson from WW1. Should God prevent
wars? Hmm.. perhaps he will! There are prophecies in the Bible
that show God will prevent the complete destruction of mankind.

The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
INNOCENT children!

The gospel says that all those people will be raised from
their graves.

All the families of the earth will be blessed, according to
the gospel.

All these were foretold by Jesus.

Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation
systems including flying through the air.

Man has created a wonderful medical and drug system and improved housing and
food production. The result of MAN'S inventiveness has

DOUBLED the average life span. None of this was created by any gods.

Actually this has generated quite lot of stress on the world's
resources. But God has given gifts to those men who made
discoveries in science and medicine.

Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and
torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think
he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven? And why does
he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our dead parents,
siblings and friends? (Or this god?)

OTOH, maybe this earthly life is a prelude to something greater.

There are thousands of different religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE
VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY of these gods. ALL god
beliefs are based on the unsubstantiated 'opinions and claims of errant men.

That's where those with faith are separated from the faithless.

If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god.

So what is it for? Don't you suppose he might want to share it?

Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about the
welfare of the creatures on Earth.

But if we can care for those we love, obviously he must be
able to do so too. Those who love God believe that he does.

The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods!

Sure there are lots of man-made gods, so what? One can choose
to love the Creator of the universe, and seek the truth.
Doug

I challenge god believers to supply ANY objective verifiable evidence that
their god actually exists except in their over active imaginations.

Who will accept the challenge???

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Gods Amazing Love	12 Jan 2008 09:53:03 PM

Doug wrote:

Bill M wrote:

"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:776f938c-382d-45f1-8edf-09951d9e9dcf@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Carl said on Jan 11, 10:23 pm:
... God's wondrous and perfect love for us.

You have lumped together many different things here. But some
of these events are just the way nature works. The same laws
that cause disasters and diseases can also have benefits for us.

Groan. Could a weaker response be imagined ! ?

Some would say it would be cruel to prevent people from having
as many kids as they like, even when they can't support them.

Groan. Why not try to directly face the question and respond ditrectly to it?
Or are you programmed otherwise?

Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth?

Death is certainly an enemy that needs to be dealt with.

Graon

Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?

Very tragic. Those who have good health, and all these
facilities intact, need to appreciate and treasure it.

pathetic diversion from the fact

Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence?

People with super intelligence might be able to contribute to
solving man's problems, right?

Tell that to a mother who has just given birth to an imbecile
DEEP Groan

Aren't there are other qualities that people can have, even
when they are lacking intelligence?

Yes Religious devotion

Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor?

Should reproduction be limited to the rich?

does not answer the question

Why does he permit over 2,000,000 innocent children to die of
starvation every year?

The freedom that men and women have to reproduce, even when
they are unable to care for their offspring, is one reason so
many infants die.

I thought you had a loving god which created us ALL in 'His' image?
It's nice to quote these biblical fables when they are useful,
but when they are not it is always a case of 'heads down change the subject'

Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate
into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious
affiliation?

The lack of war could be one reason why people to survive to
old age.

God supposedly created the world like it is, to punish man for Adam and Eve's
'original sin'. Why does he also punish supposedly innocent children and
animals with thousands of diseases, birth defects, starvation and to be
eaten by other animals?

Wrong question, as Genesis 1:26 says God planned to make man
"in his image" and so it was necessary to give him the ability
to choose, and make decisions.

How convenient. Christians always want it all ways
Oh and Genesis doesn't say anything. some early human wrote down what had been
passed on as hearsay and did it hundreds of years after the claimed happenings.
An entirely different thing.

You might have also mentioned birds, and the ability of some
to sing.

Wolves are amazing animals.

Have you ever watched a snake move, and examined the patterns
on its skin? There are also dogs, bighorn sheep, whales, and
dinosaurs. Aren't they all simply wonderful creatures?

Yes. How about insects that lay their eggs inside other insects that then die
when they give birth. also 'wonderful' eh?

Why did this caring
and benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully
kill and eat other animals to survive?

Pain is good, as it helps us to avoid injury. The disease of
leprosy causes a lot of disfigurement, because people lose
sensation in their extremities, and injure themselves.

ever watched a pack of lions attacking a bison, they can take an hour to kill it
and they start to eat parts of the beast before it finally expires.
Every tinme I see this my disgust of god propagators grows and so does my atheism

The world of life abounds in "cruel" behaviors. Numerous predators eat their
prey alive; parasites destroy their living hosts from within; in many
species of spiders and insects, the females devour their mates.

Yes, their lives are sacrificed to promote the survival of the
species.

Garbage

World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.

Yes, Catholics killed Catholics, Protestants killed
Protestants, etc. It was supposed to be the "war to end all wars".

WWII killed 20 million. I went to church with my school at the time and we prayed
for the victory of our glorious troops at the front. The German and Italian kids
were going to the same Christian churches praying for exactly the same thing. The
German soldier had on an arm band 'god is with us'

World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.

They did not learn the lesson from WW1. Should God prevent
wars? Hmm..

Graon

perhaps he will! There are prophecies in the Bible
that show God will prevent the complete destruction of mankind.

Of course there is you idiot, the writers were terrified of life. Imagine how
much they knew back then compared to today.
Religion is outdated nonsense. When chloroform was invented the church were
against it's use, claiming it went against the wishes of god to kill the pain.

The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
INNOCENT children!

The gospel says that all those people will be raised from
their graves.

Groan - sorry I cannot stand any more, must go...............................