Josh wrote:

Hello, replying to Micha El and Rob about Truth and disease and disaster
on the Earth

All this is simple. You can observe the universe, the Earth, and living
things upon the Earth. You can time-travel back millions of years by
observing distant objects in the sky or by looking at land formations
outside your own front doors. Careful measuring shows that there has been
change over all that time, like Africa once being joined to America; it is
a
treat to see it all on a globe. Meanwhile plants and animals have been
developing and changing interactively in response to climate change and
continental shift. It's all there and integrated and observation confirms
that it is true. You have to face the fact as humans that bacteria -
which
are a natural part of things - might finish us off. Or a volcano do the
same thing. It's all part of a huge shifting pattern of change and it
makes
sense. And it has no purpose, by the way. Why should it?

Put God into the story and it turns into a tangle. There has to be some
reason for setting it all up, there has to be justification for suffering,
and humans get all hoity toity about their place in it all, as if it was
all specially for them!

Earth is precious and wonderful. Observe it while you can, and take care
of it for the future we won't see because we will have recycled into
something
else. Don't forget! Your atoms have been here since the start of this
universe, and will be to its end. That's a lot more exciting than wishful
dreaming of heaven.

Regards Josh

Thanks for the thoughtful, polite reply. Others should learn a lesson from
you.

It's understandable you should believe the above. Most likely, you've never
been taught to consider anything else. The presumption of the truth of
evolution is never questioned. To do so usually makes one a pariah to one's
peers.

But, that's all it is: a presumption. We assume that evolution is true and
interpret all the evidence through the presumption. I know this to be true
because for most of my 50-years, I too, believed that evolution was true. I
was unable to reconsider my beliefs until I rejected the "interpret through
presumption" method, and simply allowed the evidence to speak for itself.
That was the turning point for me.

The universe is a finite object.

It does not possess the characteristics
which evolution predicts it should possess, no matter how much time is
added to the equation.

The universe, and all that is within it had to be
created, because order does not arise from chaos.

Physical laws do not
arise of their own accord. Life does not emerge from dead matter.

If people have problems with the idea of "Creation", claiming it is loaded
with contradictions and impossibilities necessitating a constant appeal to
the divine for miracles, they should objectively examine the evidence that
evolutionists constantly cite. The appeals to "evolution" and "divine dirt"
are just as problematic.

God answers more questions than He causes. In a nutshell, suffering resulted
from Sin; introduced into the Creation by Adam, who passed it on to his
descendants (of whom we all are);

it was addressed and dealt with by Jesus
Christ.

The penalty of Sin is Death and decay (both of which are universal
constants).

Thanks for the thoughtful, polite reply. Others should learn a lesson from
you.

It's understandable you should believe the above. Most likely, you've
never
been taught to consider anything else. The presumption of the truth of
evolution is never questioned. To do so usually makes one a pariah to
one's
peers.

But, that's all it is: a presumption. We assume that evolution is true and
interpret all the evidence through the presumption. I know this to be true
because for most of my 50-years, I too, believed that evolution was true.
I
was unable to reconsider my beliefs until I rejected the "interpret
through
presumption" method, and simply allowed the evidence to speak for itself.
That was the turning point for me.

The universe is a finite object. It does not possess the characteristics
which evolution predicts it should possess, no matter how much time is
added to the equation. The universe, and all that is within it had to be
created, because order does not arise from chaos. Physical laws do not
arise of their own accord. Life does not emerge from dead matter.

If people have problems with the idea of "Creation", claiming it is loaded
with contradictions and impossibilities necessitating a constant appeal to
the divine for miracles, they should objectively examine the evidence that
evolutionists constantly cite. The appeals to "evolution" and "divine
dirt"
are just as problematic.

God answers more questions than He causes. In a nutshell, suffering
resulted
from Sin; introduced into the Creation by Adam, who passed it on to his
descendants (of whom we all are); it was addressed and dealt with by Jesus
Christ. The penalty of Sin is Death and decay (both of which are universal
constants). Man, under the influence of Sin has made a mess, not only of
his home, but of his understanding of why things are this way.

Don't waste your life Josh living it as though it has no purpose for it
does, as does all of creation. Enjoy and appreciate what you see, for God
reveals His divine nature and power through what He created.

Peace to you,

Micha-El

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:BVfVf.4520$lM3.4136@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

Get your logic together. Because there is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
REPRODUCIBLE EVIDENCE for
ANY gods it is reasonable to conclude that no gods exist. You cannot
'prove'
a negative. You can only logically conclude
if there is NO evidence for something's existence it logically does not
exist.

Now if you wish to believe in Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, The Wizard
of
Oz
and Aesop's Fables because
they are in some books, that is your privilege but NONE of this is
evidence
for their existence.

"Rob" <robertborgersen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143302226.384829.105090@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

All religious beliefs are based on pure 'FAITH', not on ANY TANGIBLE
OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE 'SCIENTIFIC' EVIDENCE.

The bible is tangible--it is a real object. Objectivity isn't a
necessary condition for something to be true, nor is verifiability,
though the bible has been and can be verified in many ways today.

As for the rest of your post, I have this to say: Just because you
don't understand why
- children are murdered
- innocent animals get diseases and die
- little puppies get tortured to death
- pick your favorite rant
doesn't mean God doesn't exist, and doesn't prove anything at all.
Lets assume there is a God, and the world is exactly the way it
is--people still die, get raped, torn from their families, babies still
get gang raped even. Just because you don't understand why these
things happened doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

In all seriousness, if you wanted, you could only attempt to draw a
conclusion about the CHARACTER of that God from these events: but even
this fails under the same argument: just because you don't understand
why God lets these things happen doesn't mean he is a sicko.

If God exists, he is more powerful than your lack of understanding. I
wish more people would understand this.

Rob

--
Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou
Professionals built the Titanic ...
Amateurs built the Ark
Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven. Psalms 119:89
sola fide, sola Scriptura, sola gratia, sola Christo