| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"cspivey" |
| Date: |
09 Nov 2006 08:02:42 PM |
| Object: |
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL
By Ike T. Sidebottom
In Luke 13:35, we have the following judgment pronounced upon the nation
of Israel: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I
say unto you, Ye shall not see Me, until the time come when ye shall
say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord." The "house" in
this verse refers to the temple in Jerusalem. The temple had been known
as the "Father's house" and is so spoken of by Jesus in John 2:16.
However, it is clear from the above quotation that it was no longer
owned as His. It was to be "desolate." Anything that is godless is
desolate.
The guilty nation of Israel was remembered by Jesus Christ while He was
lifted up on the cross of Calvary. He prayed, "Father, forgive them; for
they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). This prayer was heard by the
Father and the nation of Israel was given another chance. The doom in
connection with the judgment which Christ had pronounced upon them was
postponed. This is the truth that Christ explained to His people in His
post-resurrection message recorded in Luke 24:45-49: "Then opened He
their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said
unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and
to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission
of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at
Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the
promise of My Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,
until ye be endued with power from on high."
The promise of the Father has reference to the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The pouring out of the Holy Ghost upon Israel was promised through the
prophet Isaiah. He said, "Upon the land of My people shall come up
thorns and briars; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city;
because the palaces shall be forsaken; the forts and towers shall be for
dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; until the
Spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful
field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest." All of this was
included in the promise of Christ when He said, "And, behold, I send the
promise of My Father upon you."
The rebellious people of Israel rejected the Father and refused to let
Him "reign over them" in the days of Samuel (1 Samuel 8:7). The same
nation hated Christ and said, "We will not have this man to reign over
us" (Luke 19:14). However, the grace of God is such that this wicked
nation could have received the kingdom blessings upon earth if they had
only received the message of the Holy Spirit when He came during the
book of Acts period according to the promise of the Father, and of the
Son. But, just as they had rejected the Father and the Son so they
rejected the Holy Spirit when He came on the day of Pentecost. God
graciously and patiently dealt with them through the Holy Spirit for a
period of thirty years. This thirty year period is covered by the book
of Acts.
A chapter by chapter study of the Acts of the Apostles will be of little
value unless the student recognizes the scriptural distinction between
the Jews, the Gentiles and the church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32). In
order to do this, one must carefully apply 2 Timothy 2:15 where we are
told to study to show ourselves approved unto God, and become workmen
that need not be ashamed, "rightly dividing the word of truth." This
means that we are not to frustrate the grace of God by endeavoring to
mix God's message to the Jew with His message to the Gentile. We must
remember that God committed "the gospel of the uncircumcision" to Paul,
and that He committed "the gospel of the circumcision" unto Peter
(Galatians 2:7-9). The word "gospel" means good news. God sent good news
from heaven to the uncircumcision (Gentiles) through the apostle Paul.
In like manner, He sent good news from heaven to the circumcision (Jews)
through Peter. These two brethren were made to understand their
respective fields of labor, when the Holy Spirit brought them together,
moved upon them to extend to each other "the right hands of fellowship"
and then go on their respective missions (Galatians 2:9).
Throughout the entire book of Acts, God makes a clear distinction
between the Jews and the Gentiles. In the opening chapters of the book,
He directs His message to Jews only, later, He includes the Gentiles,
but specifically states that the gospel is the power of God unto
salvation "to the Jew first" and also to the Gentile (Romans 1:16).
Throughout the entire book the Jews have the advantage. The reason for
this is set forth in the question and answer of Romans 3:1-2. We quote:
"What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of
circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were
committed the oracles of God." However, it is clear that their day of
advantage passed with the setting aside of national Israel when they
made their final rejection of the Holy Spirit and judgment was
pronounced upon them according to Acts 28:25-28. They were not set aside
when they rejected the Father in the days of Samuel, neither were they
set aside when they crucified the Lord of glory; but their house was
left unto them desolate when they trampled under foot the message of the
Holy Spirit during the thirty year period of the book of Acts.
Acts 28:28 marks the setting aside of national Israel. As a nation, they
must grope in darkness among the nations of the world "until the time
come when they shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the
Lord." When that time comes "all Israel shall be saved: as it is
written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob: for this is My covenant unto them, when I shall
take away their sins" (Romans 11:26-27).
The Christ-rejecting nation of Israel that had to be set aside by the
God of glory at the close of the book of Acts, will struggle through the
great tribulation that follows the rapture of the church and will be
whipped into line by the chastening hand of God in that day of Jacob's
trouble. At the close of the tribulation period God will graciously
manifest His grace toward His chosen people again. His promise is, "I
will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look
upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one
mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one
that is in bitterness for his firstborn" (Zechariah 12:10). The same
Holy Spirit who plead with Israel for thirty years following the cross
and was stubbornly rejected will graciously move in the heart of that
downtrodden nation at the end of Jacob's trouble and will open their
blinded eyes and let them behold the One whom they pierced. When they
see the nail-pierced Saviour, their hearts will be filled with
repentance and made ready for the new covenant blessing.
This time is spoken of by Jeremiah the prophet as follows: "Behold, the
days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the
house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the
covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by
the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they
brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this
shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after
those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts and
write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My
people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every
man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know Me, from
the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will
forgive their iniquity: and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah
31:31-34).
This will be the time when "the Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and
utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall
shake: but the Lord will be the hope of His people, and the strength of
the children of Israel" (Joel 3:16). This will be the time when the Lord
Jesus shall fulfill His promise to the twelve as recorded in Luke
22:28-30. We quote: "Ye are they which have continued with Me in My
temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as My Father hath
appointed unto Me; that ye may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom,
and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." In that day
"there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: and the
inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily
to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.
Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts
in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of
all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him
that is a Jew, saying, we will go with you: for we have heard that God
is with you" (Zechariah 8:20-23).
This will be the time when the Lord shall fulfill His promise: "Blessed
are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). "And the
Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one
Lord, and His name one" (Zechariah 14:9). This is the King that shall
come forth out of the stem of Jesse, "And the Spirit of the Lord shall
rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord:
and shall make Him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and
He shall not judge after the sight of His eyes, neither reprove after
the hearing of His ears: But with righteousness shall He judge the poor,
and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and He shall smite
the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips
shall He slay the wicked" (Isaiah 11:2-4).
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
09 Nov 2006 09:03:19 PM |
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:02:42 GMT, while bungee jumping,
cspivey <berean65@yahoo.net> shouted thusly:
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL
There is no such thing for national Israel.
This is one of the biggest lies in the modern
church.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
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| User: "AcesLucky" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
10 Nov 2006 01:54:51 PM |
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cspivey wrote:
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL
Ever wonder why a god never seems to speak for himself?
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
11 Nov 2006 09:55:10 AM |
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AcesLucky wrote:
cspivey wrote:
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL
Ever wonder why a god never seems to speak for himself?
AcesLucky:
The real story is quite clear if one does not twist scripture so that
it lines up with the official Roman creed, established at the first
ecumenical council of Nicea...325AD.
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| User: "AcesLucky" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
11 Nov 2006 04:07:35 PM |
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Provoker wrote:
AcesLucky wrote:
cspivey wrote:
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL
Ever wonder why a god never seems to speak for himself?
AcesLucky:
The real story is quite clear if one does not twist scripture so that
it lines up with the official Roman creed, established at the first
ecumenical council of Nicea...325AD.
Twist scripture?
Are you presupposing that at some point scripture
(Christian?) was somehow really and truly god's word, but
then got "twisted" after 325?
Might god (any god) do better simply by communicating in
person?
Thus my question. Why can't god just speak up for himself,
now or any time?
I think deep down we all know the answer, but it would
require being honest with one's self.
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
12 Nov 2006 08:04:19 AM |
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AcesLucky wrote:
Twist scripture?
Are you presupposing that at some point scripture
(Christian?) was somehow really and truly god's word, but
then got "twisted" after 325?
AcesLucky:
No. I am simply suggesting that scripture tells a completely
reasonable, and unmysterious story, which has been puposely hidden by
separating the text from the context. This was don by chopping
scripture into little bits so that they could be reassembled to make
scripture tell any story that one desires. The evidence for this is in
the fact that Christianity is doctrinally divided into thousands of
sects, all using the same bible, and all claiming divine spiritual
interpretation.
However, your point is well taken. Why would a God, who already speaks
to people by His spirit, write a book which also requires that He
explain it to people by His spirit?
The way I see it, an author who claims to be honest, and cannot lie,
who writes a book in **known** languages, makes an implicit guarantee
that that that book can be understood by anyone who **knows** those
languages. If that book can be interpreted in thousands of different
ways, it's author is an author of confusion.
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| User: "AcesLucky" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
12 Nov 2006 09:41:33 AM |
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Provoker wrote:
AcesLucky wrote:
Twist scripture?
Are you presupposing that at some point scripture
(Christian?) was somehow really and truly god's word, but
then got "twisted" after 325?
AcesLucky:
No. I am simply suggesting that scripture tells a completely
reasonable, and unmysterious story, which has been puposely hidden by
separating the text from the context. This was don by chopping
scripture into little bits so that they could be reassembled to make
scripture tell any story that one desires. The evidence for this is in
the fact that Christianity is doctrinally divided into thousands of
sects, all using the same bible, and all claiming divine spiritual
interpretation.
However, your point is well taken. Why would a God, who already speaks
to people by His spirit, write a book which also requires that He
explain it to people by His spirit?
The way I see it, an author who claims to be honest, and cannot lie,
who writes a book in **known** languages, makes an implicit guarantee
that that that book can be understood by anyone who **knows** those
languages. If that book can be interpreted in thousands of different
ways, it's author is an author of confusion.
I agree with your last sentence.
..
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
10 Nov 2006 01:48:30 AM |
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cspivey wrote:
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL
By Ike T. Sidebottom
In Luke 13:35, we have the following judgment pronounced upon the nation
of Israel: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I
say unto you, Ye shall not see Me, until the time come when ye shall
say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord." The "house" in
this verse refers to the temple in Jerusalem. The temple had been known
as the "Father's house" and is so spoken of by Jesus in John 2:16.
However, it is clear from the above quotation that it was no longer
owned as His. It was to be "desolate." Anything that is godless is
desolate.
You are correct, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Body of
Christ at Pentecost, the nation of Israel, and the temple in Jerusalem,
was left desolate, without the Testimony of God in the temple! This
Desolation was prophesied long before Pentecost, because they were
already being Judged! The Judgement of Israel was determined and final
when they rejected the Messiah by crucifying Jesus on the Cross!
The guilty nation of Israel was remembered by Jesus Christ while He was
lifted up on the cross of Calvary. He prayed, "Father, forgive them; for
they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). This prayer was heard by the
Father and the nation of Israel was given another chance. The doom in
connection with the judgment which Christ had pronounced upon them was
postponed. This is the truth that Christ explained to His people in His
post-resurrection message recorded in Luke 24:45-49: "Then opened He
their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said
unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and
to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission
of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at
Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the
promise of My Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,
until ye be endued with power from on high."
The doom in connection with the Judgement, which Christ pronounced, was
not postponed, and there was no "second" chance! They had all ready
received many chances, when they Crucified the Son of God, that was the
end of the Last Chance!
When Jesus prayed " Father, Forgive them, They do not know what they
are doing!" He was not praying just for the nation of Israel, that
they be given another chance as a nation, but He was praying for all of
us, for it was our sin that put Jesus on the Cross, just as much as
those Roman spikes, or the demands of the Jews to crucify Him! Jesus
Prayed that the Father would forgive us! Else we are still in our sin,
and the Death of Christ was not an acceptable sacrifice for our sins to
the Father! The Death of Christ was sufficient, the Father ordained
it, and accepted the Blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins! So
your basic premise is faulted on this first count!
If as according to you, the Jews would have received the Messiah, even
after they had rejected and crucified Him, and turned in full obediance
to worship and obey Him, which was unlikely and not what Happened, Then
the desolation was still pronounced upon the nation! There was nothing
they could have done to avoid the desolation! Otherwise there is
another way of Salvation, and Christ would have died in vain! Christ
did not die in vain, so your basic premise is faulted on this second
count!
The message of Christ post resurection, was that the Gospel would be
preached among all nations, starting from where they were physically in
Jerusalem! There is no thought that the Jews had an advantage
regarding repentance and remission of sins! On the contrary, this was
a message for everyone! The eyes He opened, were those of the
Disciples with Him at that time, so that they could receive this
message! Their closed eyes, made them still think that the Lord was
doing something specifically for the nation of Israel, the very fault
that you still maintain! It seems that your eyes need to be opened as
well! So, your basic premise is faulted on this third count!
The promise of the Father has reference to the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The pouring out of the Holy Ghost upon Israel was promised through the
prophet Isaiah. He said, "Upon the land of My people shall come up
thorns and briars; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city;
because the palaces shall be forsaken; the forts and towers shall be for
dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; until the
Spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful
field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest." All of this was
included in the promise of Christ when He said, "And, behold, I send the
promise of My Father upon you."
Mix in enough OT verses, and almost any poisonous message can be made
apparently harmless! The general application of a scripture, that was
a specifically promised to specific people of a specific time, does not
make the General application acceptable. If the general application is
in violation of specific NT scripture and Doctrine, then no amount of
propounding will make it more acceptable! If you had started out with
Joel, then you may have a leg to stand on, but to start with Isaiah, is
to miss the importance of Joel! Peter did not make that mistake!
Your general reference sounds good to our ears that our acustomed to
hearing about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, in a feel good sort of
way, But that does not mean we can go back and apply all the old
testament promises to this current age in which we live, as if we name
it and claim it for the Body of Christ, though sadly this is exactly
what many do! This would be fault number four!
The rebellious people of Israel rejected the Father and refused to let
Him "reign over them" in the days of Samuel (1 Samuel 8:7). The same
nation hated Christ and said, "We will not have this man to reign over
us" (Luke 19:14). However, the grace of God is such that this wicked
nation could have received the kingdom blessings upon earth if they had
only received the message of the Holy Spirit when He came during the
book of Acts period according to the promise of the Father, and of the
Son. But, just as they had rejected the Father and the Son so they
rejected the Holy Spirit when He came on the day of Pentecost. God
graciously and patiently dealt with them through the Holy Spirit for a
period of thirty years. This thirty year period is covered by the book
of Acts.
Jesus had already pronounced His Kingdom was not of this world! Any
hope the Jews had of an earthly kingdom, was null and void, and no
amount of receiving the message of the Holy Spirit, would have reversed
the Words of Jesus!
The nation of Israel had already been left desolate! Those Jews who
saw what was going on, and ask Peter how could they be saved, were
instructed to repent and be Baptized. The exact same formula, for all
those who would be saved in this era post Crucifixtion, Whether they
are Jews or Gentiles! Peter did not say there was some other program
that they could fulfill in order to be saved from the wrath of God for
rejecting the Holy Spirit!
Tell me, where are we told that the nation of Israel rejected the Holy
Spirit on the Day of Pentecost! We see not national witness of the
event, so where could there be any national rejection of that witness!
Now if you are speaking of the 30 years following Pentecost, there were
Jews who accepted the witness of the Apostles and Believers in
Jerusalem, and they were all saved by the same instrumentality of God
Grace, as all other Believers! There were many unbelieveing Jews,
hardly representative of all Israel, and again no where do we find a
record of any other rejection of the Holy Spirit that resulted in the
destruction of Jerusalem and the temple! The only point of judgement,
was the Crucifixtion of Christ! This is fault number five! Plus a few
others!
A chapter by chapter study of the Acts of the Apostles will be of little
value unless the student recognizes the scriptural distinction between
the Jews, the Gentiles and the church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32). In
order to do this, one must carefully apply 2 Timothy 2:15 where we are
told to study to show ourselves approved unto God, and become workmen
that need not be ashamed, "rightly dividing the word of truth." This
means that we are not to frustrate the grace of God by endeavoring to
mix God's message to the Jew with His message to the Gentile. We must
remember that God committed "the gospel of the uncircumcision" to Paul,
and that He committed "the gospel of the circumcision" unto Peter
(Galatians 2:7-9). The word "gospel" means good news. God sent good news
from heaven to the uncircumcision (Gentiles) through the apostle Paul.
In like manner, He sent good news from heaven to the circumcision (Jews)
through Peter. These two brethren were made to understand their
respective fields of labor, when the Holy Spirit brought them together,
moved upon them to extend to each other "the right hands of fellowship"
and then go on their respective missions (Galatians 2:9).
Here we get to the heart of your doctrine, dividing between Jews,
Gentiles, and the Church of God, when Paul says there is no difference!
If this is what you mean, by rightly dividing, I would be ashamed if I
was you! You infact frustrate the Grace of God, that has been made
known to the body of Christ, by trying to mix in Scriptures from the OT
that were promises to the OT Israelites, and now you want the Church to
name the promise and claim it, because it is in the Bible! How is that
rightfully dispensing! That is what the word divide means, and it is
where the name Dispensationalist comes from! Do you dispense this
poison to the Body, divide the Body, when Paul says, now, there is no
Difference!
Not only Paul, but Peter also said that what Paul said, was the same
thing the Apostles in Jerusalem were saying, so I must say, this is the
biggest horse pill of poison that you are dispensing! If you can just
get us to swallow this pill, then the rest is easy! This is fault
number six! Plus a few more!
Throughout the entire book of Acts, God makes a clear distinction
between the Jews and the Gentiles. In the opening chapters of the book,
He directs His message to Jews only, later, He includes the Gentiles,
but specifically states that the gospel is the power of God unto
salvation "to the Jew first" and also to the Gentile (Romans 1:16).
Throughout the entire book the Jews have the advantage. The reason for
this is set forth in the question and answer of Romans 3:1-2. We quote:
"What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of
circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were
committed the oracles of God." However, it is clear that their day of
advantage passed with the setting aside of national Israel when they
made their final rejection of the Holy Spirit and judgment was
pronounced upon them according to Acts 28:25-28. They were not set aside
when they rejected the Father in the days of Samuel, neither were they
set aside when they crucified the Lord of glory; but their house was
left unto them desolate when they trampled under foot the message of the
Holy Spirit during the thirty year period of the book of Acts.
Please tell me where you conclude from Act 28 that this had anything to
do with the final rejection of the Holy Spirit by the Jews, resulting
in the destruction of Jerusalem? This had to do with the decision of
Paul to go to the Gentiles, and Paul was in preaching in Rome, where
there may have been some Jews, but hardly anything approaching the
national witness of Israel!
The desolation had already been determined, the final destruction came
about when the Jews rebeled against the Romans, who finally had enough,
and were the instrument of God to destroy Jerusalem with the tempel!
The timing of this event, was prophesied with the 70 weeks of Daniel!
I find no reason to separate the 70th week with any parenthesis period
of the Church! The destruction of Jerusalem, was prophesied and
determined a long time before the end of the Book of Acts! This is
fault number seven! Plus more!
Acts 28:28 marks the setting aside of national Israel. As a nation, they
must grope in darkness among the nations of the world "until the time
come when they shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the
Lord." When that time comes "all Israel shall be saved: as it is
written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob: for this is My covenant unto them, when I shall
take away their sins" (Romans 11:26-27).
This was a prophesy of the coming of Messiah, which occurred at the
Cross and Prior, not in regards to the Holy Spirit! Fault number 8!
The Christ-rejecting nation of Israel that had to be set aside by the
God of glory at the close of the book of Acts, will struggle through the
great tribulation that follows the rapture of the church and will be
whipped into line by the chastening hand of God in that day of Jacob's
trouble. At the close of the tribulation period God will graciously
manifest His grace toward His chosen people again. His promise is, "I
will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look
upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one
mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one
that is in bitterness for his firstborn" (Zechariah 12:10). The same
Holy Spirit who plead with Israel for thirty years following the cross
and was stubbornly rejected will graciously move in the heart of that
downtrodden nation at the end of Jacob's trouble and will open their
blinded eyes and let them behold the One whom they pierced. When they
see the nail-pierced Saviour, their hearts will be filled with
repentance and made ready for the new covenant blessing.
This is a pile of Dispensational rubbish, that is not really worth
sorting through! You speak it out with one verse from Zechariah, and
that misapplied! Is this your version of rightly dividing! I lost
count of faults in this one paragraph, so I am going to apply faults up
thru 25, but I am sure there are more!
This time is spoken of by Jeremiah the prophet as follows: "Behold, the
days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the
house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the
covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by
the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they
brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this
shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after
those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts and
write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My
people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every
man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know Me, from
the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will
forgive their iniquity: and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah
31:31-34).
That you apply this to Israel, I will grant that you do not mix it with
the New Covenant that Jesus made with the Disciples, and which we
commemorate in the communion service, unless of course you actually are
trying to mix them up! That you fail to realize that this promised
covenant was voided by the continuous disobediance of Israel, along
with many other promises, that were actually contingent upon their
obediance! That there are principles that we can learn from any
covenant or promise of God with man, is without question! That we
should learn, or do learn, is apparently still an issue if we have yet
to walk in the Spirit of Christ! This walk in the Spirit, is the
expression of the New Covenant in which Believers participate!
This will be the time when "the Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and
utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall
shake: but the Lord will be the hope of His people, and the strength of
the children of Israel" (Joel 3:16). This will be the time when the Lord
Jesus shall fulfill His promise to the twelve as recorded in Luke
22:28-30. We quote: "Ye are they which have continued with Me in My
temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as My Father hath
appointed unto Me; that ye may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom,
and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." In that day
"there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: and the
inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily
to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.
Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts
in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of
all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him
that is a Jew, saying, we will go with you: for we have heard that God
is with you" (Zechariah 8:20-23).
Again read, fault numbers 2,3, & 4! and others! That you quote lots of
verses, is now just a matter of seeing what sticks! Mix in a bit of
this, a pinch of that, and stir rapidly! You have successfully mixed
and matched many different and various passages that may or may not
have any particular connection! This hardly represents any form of
scholarly exegesis, and I suspect that there is a lot of wool being
pulled over the eyes of the unsuspecting! I would be seriously ashamed
to attach my name to this mess! Again lost track of the fault count,
should be around 50 by now!
This will be the time when the Lord shall fulfill His promise: "Blessed
are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). "And the
Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one
Lord, and His name one" (Zechariah 14:9). This is the King that shall
come forth out of the stem of Jesse, "And the Spirit of the Lord shall
rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord:
and shall make Him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and
He shall not judge after the sight of His eyes, neither reprove after
the hearing of His ears: But with righteousness shall He judge the poor,
and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and He shall smite
the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips
shall He slay the wicked" (Isaiah 11:2-4).
I think you get the point! Go and do your homework again, and do it
better next time!
This in no way represents even a bad division of the Scriptures. If you
are a workman, you need to be ashamed! I have looked forward to your
post in the past, and generally felt that they were acceptable. So I
was sadly surprised that you have lowered your standard of scriptural
presentation and interpretation to such a low standard, that is not
worthy of Jesus Christ and His Love for us!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
11 Nov 2006 09:47:38 AM |
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cspivey wrote:
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL
By Ike T. Sidebottom
In Luke 13:35, we have the following judgment pronounced upon the nation.....
cspivey:
Here is God's distinctive program for Israel, by Provoker:
The gospel was first given to Abraham: All the nations of the world
will be blessed with world peace, when Abraham's descendants rule all
the land between the Euphrates and the Nile(the good news of the
kingdom).
The **mixed** assembly of people known as "the children of Israel", was
chosen by God to be the descendants of Abraham which would fulfill the
gospel that had been given to Abraham.
God made an **everlasting** promise to the "assembly of the children of
Israel", that if it kept God's laws(love God and love one another), it
would become a great and mighty nation on the land promised to Abraham,
and all the nations of the world will be blessed with world peace.
The children of Israel slaughtered the Canaanites and took their land,
becoming the **national assembly** of the children of Israel(covenant
Israel).
In order to take all the land promised to Abraham, Israel became a
kingdom, but before it could conquer all the land between the Euphrates
and the Nile, the kingdom of Israel became divided against it'self and
fell, being replaced by two warring enemy kingdoms which went down to
their respective destructions, scattering the children of Israel
throughout the nations.
The division of Israel represented a lack of love for one another, and
therefore a lack of love for God, thus Israel failed to maintain it's
covenant responsibilities, and God was obliged to turn His face away
from Israel until it repented, as had already happened several times.
The difficulty with covenant Israel repenting this time, was multiplied
because the children of Israel were scattered. In order for covenant
Israel to repent, the children of Israel would have to be gathered from
the nations, for the resurrection of the kingdom of covenant Israel, in
order for the plan, that God had committed to Israel, to be
fulfilled(the blessing of all the nations of the world with world
peace).
When the captives in Babylon, received the prophecy that a messiah
would come and receive the kingdom of his father David, the national
Israel resurrection movement(Judaism) began, and it's members(Jews)
began to watch and wait for the messiah, and to prepare by building a
body for the Christ to lead to kingdom resurrection.
The captivity ended, and the Jews who returned to Persian Judea, felt
so at home, that they lost interest in militarily taking back the land,
thus they became the backslidden lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost, by bringing the
lost sheep of the house of Israel back into the fold of the gospel of
the kingdom. Jesus was healing the backsliding of the lost sheep of
the house of Israel, by reminding them of the gospel of the kingdom
which had been delivered to Abraham so many years before.
Backslidden Jews were being converted to **true** Jews, just as later,
Paul converted gentiles to **true** Jews, pointing out that the only
qualification was to have a circumcised heart. While covenant Israel
existed, circumcision of the flesh was the signature of those who were
committed to the blessing of all the nations through the gospel of the
kingdom, so now while the kingdom does not exist, circumcision
naturally has to be spiritual(of the heart), but it is a committment to
the blessing of all the nations, by the resurrection of covenant Israel
from the dead, to rule all the land between the Euphrates and the Nile.
Jesus was killed because the chief priests and pharisees were afraid
that he might lead an unsuccessful attack on Rome, and the Romans would
come and kill all the Jews, thus one man would die to save all the
Jews...from death at the hands of the Romans.
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
11 Nov 2006 09:58:47 AM |
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On 11 Nov 2006 07:47:38 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
cspivey wrote:
GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL
By Ike T. Sidebottom
In Luke 13:35, we have the following judgment pronounced upon the nation.....
cspivey:
Here is God's distinctive program for Israel, by Provoker:
As I said, that is done with. There is no prophecy for
Israel's future.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
11 Nov 2006 12:46:39 PM |
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Azaliah wrote:
As I said, that is done with. There is no prophecy for
Israel's future.
Azaliah:
Yes, that is what you said alright...LOL
However, since you are obviously not aware of the legions of
unfulfilled prophecies regarding Israel's future, maybe you recognize
the scriptural events to which I have refered, and will see that they
all fit together, not like a jigsaw puzzle, but like any plainly
written story which has not been arbitrarily divided into verses,
chapters, testaments, and dispensations, for the purpose of hiding the
real bible story by interfering with it's continuous flow.
If there is any particular part of my synopsis which you would like to
challenge, then let's get to it, so all the evidence can make it's way
to the table...LOL
Just to whet your appetite, in Jeremiah 31: 31-34, God completely
defines His new covenant. God says that He will make His new covenant
with **Israel**, and God defines His new covenant as writing His laws
on Israel's hearts, resulting in the cessation of preaching, because
all Israel will know God.
Jeremiah was writing long after the fall of covenant Israel, and there
is no existing people/nation which keeps God's laws by nature, and
preaching continues everywhere.
The significance of the New Covenant, is that it will cause Israel to
naturally keep God's laws, thus fulfilling the Old Covenant which
required Israel to keep God's laws. While the old covenant is
everlasting, and will always exist, Israel will keep God's laws by
nature, so the old covenant will be fulfilled, and therefore redundant.
While the new covenant sounds like God will be interfering with
Israel's free will, those who make up resurrected covenant Israel, will
naturally have the spirit of Israel's covenant in their hearts, and it
will be their heart's desire to keep God's laws.
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
11 Nov 2006 01:50:24 PM |
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On 11 Nov 2006 10:46:39 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah wrote:
As I said, that is done with. There is no prophecy for
Israel's future.
Azaliah:
Yes, that is what you said alright...LOL
However, since you are obviously not aware of the legions of
unfulfilled prophecies regarding Israel's future,
That is a claim, not proof. All you do is make claims
and when questioned on them, you disappear.
Just to whet your appetite, in Jeremiah 31: 31-34, God completely
defines His new covenant.
Just to correct you, Joshua also says that God fulfilled
His covenant. It was done.
The significance of the New Covenant, is that it will cause Israel to
naturally keep God's laws,
Israel in the new covenant has nothing to do with
national Israel.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
11 Nov 2006 03:23:42 PM |
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Azaliah wrote:
On 11 Nov 2006 10:46:39 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
you are obviously not aware of the legions of
unfulfilled prophecies regarding Israel's future,
That is a claim, not proof. All you do is make claims
and when questioned on them, you disappear.
Azaliah:
Please show me the difference between a claim and a proof, when it
comes to things that happened 2500 years ago, and please don't suggest
that I disappear upon questioning about my bible position.
Just to whet your appetite, in Jeremiah 31: 31-34, God completely
defines His new covenant.
Just to correct you, Joshua also says that God fulfilled
His covenant. It was done.
Please offer some context for this implied statement by Joshua, because
it is the context which determines what any passage means, not the
convenient words of a single verse...LOL
In the Jeremiah passage I refered to, God Himself sets the context;
"Because ***Israel*** broke the covenant", I will make a new covenant
with ***Israel***". Surely you are not going to argue that God was
refering to two different Israels here.
God goes on to point out that He will make His new covenant with both
houses of Israel, which refers to a repentant Israel, not a divided
Israel, and of course, a repentant national Israel will require a
national resurrection from the dead.
Israel broke the covenant becoming divided against it'self. National
division is clearly a breach of the command to love one another, and
since one cannot love God who he has not seen, if he doesn't love his
brother who he has seen, Israel completely and entirely failed to keep
God's laws.
The new covenant cannot replace a covenant which is everlasting, but
God points out in the Jeremiah passage, that even after resurrection
and repentance, Israel would eventually break the old covenant again,
and so the reason that He will make His new covenant, is so that Israel
will keep God's laws by nature, thus fulfilling the old covenant...not
replacing it.
Maybe your bible is different than mine...I use the KJV.
Israel in the new covenant has nothing to do with
national Israel.
This issue is covered in my response above, but maybe you could
explain, with a little context to back it up, what the Israel in the
new covenant does have to do with.
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
11 Nov 2006 09:20:52 PM |
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On 11 Nov 2006 13:23:42 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah wrote:
On 11 Nov 2006 10:46:39 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
you are obviously not aware of the legions of
unfulfilled prophecies regarding Israel's future,
That is a claim, not proof. All you do is make claims
and when questioned on them, you disappear.
Azaliah:
Please show me the difference between a claim and a proof, when it
comes to things that happened 2500 years ago, and please don't suggest
that I disappear upon questioning about my bible position.
If you do not know the difference between a claim
and proof, then there is no polite way to say that
you have a serious mental deficiency!
And you do disappear. You have done it twice now!
Just to whet your appetite, in Jeremiah 31: 31-34, God completely
defines His new covenant.
Just to correct you, Joshua also says that God fulfilled
His covenant. It was done.
Please offer some context for this implied statement by Joshua,
I need not offer anything. I responded to your claim.
Yet when you can't prove your claims, which is why
you never quote Scripture that would prove it, you try
to turn it around and pretend that the burden of proof
is on me. That's dishonest! (:
I will give you this however, since you already admitted
that God made the promise to Abraham initially and
as we both know, Joshua came after Abraham and as
we both know, the promise was about land.
Joshua 21:43-45
43) And the Lord gave unto Israel *_ALL_* the land which
he swore to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it,
and dwelt therein.
44) And the Lord gave them rest round about, ACCORDING
TO *ALL* THAT HE SWORE UNTO THEIR FATHERS: and
there stood not a man of all their enemies before them;
the Lord delivered *_ALL_* their enemies into their hand.
45) THERE FAILED NOT AUGHT OF ANY GOOD THING WHICH
THE LORD HAD SPOKEN UNTO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; ALL
CAME TO PASS.
It is clear here, that God has *ALREADY* fulfilled His
promise! In fact, He did so A LONG TIME AGO, in the days
of Joshua! But remember that God had said that He would
give it to them forever? Well sure, but let's not forget THE
COVENANT. Let's take a look at what else God said about
this subject, should they transgress the covenant of the Lord.
Joshua 23:14-15
14) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth:
and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that NOT
ONE THING HATH FAILED of all the good things which the Lord
your God spoke concerning you; ALL are come to pass unto you,
and NOT ONE THING HATH FAILED THEREOF.
15) Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things
are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you;
SO SHALL THE LORD BRING UPON YOU ALL EVIL THINGS,
UNTIL HE HAVE *DESTROYED YOU FROM OFF THIS GOOD
LAND* which the Lord your God hath given you.
16) WHEN YE HAVE TRANSGRESSED THE COVENANT of the
Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and
served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; THEN shall
the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, AND YE SHALL
PERISH QUICKLY FROM OFF THE GOOD LAND WHICH HE
HATH GIVEN UNTO YOU.
So here it is clear that when they transgressed the covenant,
that they lost the right to the land. They would be
"destroyed from off this good land". And we both know that
it is very easy to show that they did go and serve other gods.
Israel in the new covenant has nothing to do with
national Israel.
This issue is covered in my response above,
If no Scripture was quoted that proves it, then no,
it wasn't "covered in your response above".
but maybe you could
explain, with a little context to back it up, what the Israel in the
new covenant does have to do with.
Once again, I need not offer anything. I am responding
to your claims, not vice versa. I will say however, that
Israel in the new covenant, is spiritual Israel. The church.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
12 Nov 2006 10:44:48 AM |
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Azaliah wrote:
If you do not know the difference between a claim
and proof, then there is no polite way to say that
you have a serious mental deficiency!
Azaliah:
If you have a high IQ, then post as if you do. Your strawman/ad
hominem arguement here is certainly beneath a 151 IQ.
And you do disappear. You have done it twice now!
If you think that I disappeared under debate circumstances, then by all
means, use that as a low IQ arguement for your position...LOL
I need not offer anything. I responded to your claim.
Yet when you can't prove your claims, which is why
you never quote Scripture that would prove it, you try
to turn it around and pretend that the burden of proof
is on me. That's dishonest! (:
I made a statement which I am fully prepared to back up with scripture,
and you simply responded with your statement that I am wrong. That is
where we are at this point. However, please do not talk about the
burden of "proof", since there is no "proof" for any of this, and the
burden of evidence is on whoever has evidence.
Scripture was written in story form, and that is the way I "quote"
scripture. If you think that quoting single verses, or single
passages, of a doctrinally interpreted and paraphrased "version", is
quoting scripture, then let me raise your IQ a few more points:
Scripture was not written in English, and none of the original bible
languages are directly translatable into English. "Translation" is a
convenient misnomer, because the best that can be claimed for our
English bibles, is that they are doctrinal paraphrasings of doctrinal
interpretations of doctrinal paraphrasings of doctrinal
interpretations. The only thing in the bible, which is likely to have
remained intact and reliable, is the theme which maintains continuity
throughout, and rest of the paraphrasing should be understood in that
context.
When I summarize a portion of the confirmable story which runs with
continuity through the whole bible, I am more honestly, and accurately,
quoting scripture, than those who quote an English version word for
word.
Joshua 21:43-45
43) And the Lord gave unto Israel *_ALL_* the land which
he swore to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it,
and dwelt therein.
44) And the Lord gave them rest round about, ACCORDING
TO *ALL* THAT HE SWORE UNTO THEIR FATHERS: and
there stood not a man of all their enemies before them;
the Lord delivered *_ALL_* their enemies into their hand.
45) THERE FAILED NOT AUGHT OF ANY GOOD THING WHICH
THE LORD HAD SPOKEN UNTO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; ALL
CAME TO PASS.
It is clear here, that God has *ALREADY* fulfilled His
promise! In fact, He did so A LONG TIME AGO, in the days
of Joshua! But remember that God had said that He would
give it to them forever? Well sure, but let's not forget THE
COVENANT. Let's take a look at what else God said about
this subject, should they transgress the covenant of the Lord.
Joshua 23:14-15
14) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth:
and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that NOT
ONE THING HATH FAILED of all the good things which the Lord
your God spoke concerning you; ALL are come to pass unto you,
and NOT ONE THING HATH FAILED THEREOF.
15) Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things
are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you;
SO SHALL THE LORD BRING UPON YOU ALL EVIL THINGS,
UNTIL HE HAVE *DESTROYED YOU FROM OFF THIS GOOD
LAND* which the Lord your God hath given you.
16) WHEN YE HAVE TRANSGRESSED THE COVENANT of the
Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and
served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; THEN shall
the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, AND YE SHALL
PERISH QUICKLY FROM OFF THE GOOD LAND WHICH HE
HATH GIVEN UNTO YOU.
So here it is clear that when they transgressed the covenant,
that they lost the right to the land. They would be
"destroyed from off this good land". And we both know that
it is very easy to show that they did go and serve other gods.
Once again, I need not offer anything.
Well Azaliah, I am happy that you did offer something:-)
The children of Israel shed their own blood to take the land of Canaan,
so the statement that God **gave** the land to them, is obviously
metaphorical, and the statement that God gave them "ALL" the land
cannot be interpreted literally either. While the Abrahamic promise
began with the land of Canaan, it later included all the land between
the Euphrates and the Nile. Israel fell into non-existence without
ever ruling all the land promised to Abraham.
Joshua was long dead before Israel's kings even began to enlarge Israel
toward the goal of "all the land promised to Abraham". An honest
interpreter does not rely simply on words, especially words which
conflict with the facts, but he compares the words to the story to
determine what they "probably" mean, and whether or not they are
metaphorical. It's called "context". The claims must come after the
fact, not before the fact.
The reason that there are over 30,000 doctrinally disagreeing sects of
Christianity, is because they all build their doctrines on "words in a
verse", and give no consideration to the context/story.
In any case, if you look in Deut. 28, you will also find penalties for
breaking the covenant, but as long as the covenant penalties are in
force, the covenant is obviously in force. "Broke the covenant" is
just a poor choice of paraphrasing, because to break a covenant, both
parties must agree. Israel "broke" the conditions of the covenant, but
the covenant did not become null and void, it simply entered into the
penalty phase.
If one's covenant obligations could be voided simply by breaking
covenant conditions, all the lawyers would go out of business.
One would assume that Joshua must have been aware of God's promises to
Abraham, but Joshua was long dead before the kings of covenant Israel
even began to expand it's territory beyond the land of Canaan, toward
all the land that God promised to Abraham. What Joshua meant, or what
his words were paraphrased to mean, is beyond me at this point, but it
is clear that they were not true, and so do not disqualify my
position:-)
.
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
12 Nov 2006 04:00:52 PM |
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On 12 Nov 2006 08:44:48 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah wrote:
If you do not know the difference between a claim
and proof, then there is no polite way to say that
you have a serious mental deficiency!
Azaliah:
If you have a high IQ, then post as if you do. Your strawman/ad
hominem arguement here is certainly beneath a 151 IQ.
You can claim it's anything you want. The fact is,
you make claims and refuse to back them up.
Just admit it. You are ignorant as to what the Bible
actually says. All you know is your man made doctrine.
I need not offer anything. I responded to your claim.
Yet when you can't prove your claims, which is why
you never quote Scripture that would prove it, you try
to turn it around and pretend that the burden of proof
is on me. That's dishonest! (:
I made a statement which I am fully prepared to back up with scripture,
And yet, you refuse to every time.
Joshua 21:43-45
43) And the Lord gave unto Israel *_ALL_* the land which
he swore to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it,
and dwelt therein.
44) And the Lord gave them rest round about, ACCORDING
TO *ALL* THAT HE SWORE UNTO THEIR FATHERS: and
there stood not a man of all their enemies before them;
the Lord delivered *_ALL_* their enemies into their hand.
45) THERE FAILED NOT AUGHT OF ANY GOOD THING WHICH
THE LORD HAD SPOKEN UNTO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; ALL
CAME TO PASS.
It is clear here, that God has *ALREADY* fulfilled His
promise! In fact, He did so A LONG TIME AGO, in the days
of Joshua! But remember that God had said that He would
give it to them forever? Well sure, but let's not forget THE
COVENANT. Let's take a look at what else God said about
this subject, should they transgress the covenant of the Lord.
Joshua 23:14-15
14) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth:
and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that NOT
ONE THING HATH FAILED of all the good things which the Lord
your God spoke concerning you; ALL are come to pass unto you,
and NOT ONE THING HATH FAILED THEREOF.
15) Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things
are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you;
SO SHALL THE LORD BRING UPON YOU ALL EVIL THINGS,
UNTIL HE HAVE *DESTROYED YOU FROM OFF THIS GOOD
LAND* which the Lord your God hath given you.
16) WHEN YE HAVE TRANSGRESSED THE COVENANT of the
Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and
served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; THEN shall
the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, AND YE SHALL
PERISH QUICKLY FROM OFF THE GOOD LAND WHICH HE
HATH GIVEN UNTO YOU.
So here it is clear that when they transgressed the covenant,
that they lost the right to the land. They would be
"destroyed from off this good land". And we both know that
it is very easy to show that they did go and serve other gods.
Once again, I need not offer anything.
Well Azaliah, I am happy that you did offer something:-)
The children of Israel shed their own blood to take the land of Canaan,
so the statement that God **gave** the land to them, is obviously
metaphorical, and the statement that God gave them "ALL" the land
cannot be interpreted literally either.
In other words, even though Scripture says that God fulfilled
His promise, you don't care. YOU WANT TO BELIEVE that it
hasn't happened yet and so, you try to redefine even simple,
basic words, in order to fit your doctrine.
You come up with a doctrine and when Scripture proves it
wrong, you claim that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
12 Nov 2006 05:22:08 PM |
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Azaliah wrote:
I made a statement which I am fully prepared to back up with scripture,
And yet, you refuse to every time.
Azaliah:
I wish you would quit saying that. I back everything I say with
scripture. Surely you can grasp the fact that scripture tells a story,
and everything written in the bible is understood in the context of
that story.
Bible statements which conflict with the obvious story which runs with
continuity through scripture, have not been interpreted and/or
paraphrased correctly. It's as simple as that. To now make the
arguement that I disagree with scripture, suggests that your IQ doesn't
kick in when it comes to bible discussion. It is simply not
intelligent to believe "one passage" in a paraphrased version of
scripture, which contradicts the whole body of history that is recorded
in the same scripture.
In other words, even though Scripture says that God fulfilled
His promise, you don't care. YOU WANT TO BELIEVE that it
hasn't happened yet and so, you try to redefine even simple,
basic words, in order to fit your doctrine.
You come up with a doctrine and when Scripture proves it
wrong, you claim that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.
I don't have a doctrine Azaliah. I have opinions based on the clear and
obvious story which runs all the way through scripture **with
continuity**. I don't view being written in the bible, as proof that
any particular bible statement is automaticly true.
When there is clearly a continuous story running through a book, one
conflicting passage does not trump the whole story.
Did God promise Abraham that his descendants would rule all the land
between the Euphrates and the Nile? Did God tell Israel that it would
rule all the land promised to Abraham? Did God promise that He would
establish David's kingdom forever, with David's descendants always on
the throne? Did David's kingdom fall into non-existence at the end of
Solomon's reign, and has not existed since? Did Davidic kingdom ever
rule all the land between the Euphrates and the Nile? Would Joshua
even know, since he was long dead before Israel even had a king?
How could the Joshua statement possibly be correct?
Assuming that every conflicting statement in the bible is true, has
spawned 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing sects of Christianity.
Context is always the key to interpretation, and the story of
continuity is always the greater context.
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
12 Nov 2006 08:11:52 PM |
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On 12 Nov 2006 15:22:08 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah wrote:
I made a statement which I am fully prepared to back up with scripture,
And yet, you refuse to every time.
Azaliah:
I wish you would quit saying that. I back everything I say with
scripture.
No, you don't, which is why I keep saying it.
In other words, even though Scripture says that God fulfilled
His promise, you don't care. YOU WANT TO BELIEVE that it
hasn't happened yet and so, you try to redefine even simple,
basic words, in order to fit your doctrine.
You come up with a doctrine and when Scripture proves it
wrong, you claim that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.
I don't have a doctrine Azaliah.
Yes, you do and you stated it. And here, again, you deny that
God fulfilled His promise.
Did God promise Abraham that his descendants would rule all the land
between the Euphrates and the Nile? Did God tell Israel that it would
rule all the land promised to Abraham? Did God promise that He would
establish David's kingdom forever, with David's descendants always on
the throne? Did David's kingdom fall into non-existence at the end of
Solomon's reign, and has not existed since? Did Davidic kingdom ever
rule all the land between the Euphrates and the Nile? Would Joshua
even know, since he was long dead before Israel even had a king?
How could the Joshua statement possibly be correct?
Assuming that every conflicting statement in the bible is true, has
spawned 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing sects of Christianity.
Context is always the key to interpretation, and the story of
continuity is always the greater context.
Once again, you fail to note that God also said that if they
served other gods, that He would rip them from the land.
God fulfilled His promise (which you deny) and then they
did serve other gods. Contract violated and null and void.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
13 Nov 2006 08:04:46 PM |
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Azaliah wrote:
On 12 Nov 2006 15:22:08 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah wrote:
I made a statement which I am fully prepared to back up with scripture,
And yet, you refuse to every time.
Azaliah:
I wish you would quit saying that. I back everything I say with
scripture.
No, you don't, which is why I keep saying it.
In other words, even though Scripture says that God fulfilled
His promise, you don't care. YOU WANT TO BELIEVE that it
hasn't happened yet and so, you try to redefine even simple,
basic words, in order to fit your doctrine.
You come up with a doctrine and when Scripture proves it
wrong, you claim that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.
I don't have a doctrine Azaliah.
Yes, you do and you stated it. And here, again, you deny that
God fulfilled His promise.
Did God promise Abraham that his descendants would rule all the land
between the Euphrates and the Nile? Did God tell Israel that it would
rule all the land promised to Abraham? Did God promise that He would
establish David's kingdom forever, with David's descendants always on
the throne? Did David's kingdom fall into non-existence at the end of
Solomon's reign, and has not existed since? Did Davidic kingdom ever
rule all the land between the Euphrates and the Nile? Would Joshua
even know, since he was long dead before Israel even had a king?
How could the Joshua statement possibly be correct?
Assuming that every conflicting statement in the bible is true, has
spawned 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing sects of Christianity.
Context is always the key to interpretation, and the story of
continuity is always the greater context.
Once again, you fail to note that God also said that if they
served other gods, that He would rip them from the land.
God fulfilled His promise (which you deny) and then they
did serve other gods. Contract violated and null and void.
Azaliah:
God made His covenant with a national **assembly** known as Israel, not
individual Israelites. It was never Israelite national policy to serve
other gods, and after covenant Israel fell into non-existence, no
covenant Israel existed to break any of God's commands, or for God to
punish in any way.
As I have already said, if a contract was null and void when one person
failed to maintain his covenant obligations, all the lawyers would go
out of business. The old covenant was simply a conditional
promise..."If you do this, then I will do this", with the obvious
implication that "if you don't, then I won't". Deut. 28 put fear into
Israelite hearts by Metaphorically implying a penalty phase which is
not actually stated in the covenant. The implied punishments in Deut.
28, are simply metaphores for all the problems that will naturally
befall a nation which does not love God or love one another.
Since covenant national Israel no longer existed after it's fall,
whatever the two resulting, warring, enemy nations did, or did not do,
had no effect on the everlasting covenant God had made with national
Israel.
The fall of Israel is the most significant event in bible history, but
it's significance has been lost due to the lies of a defunct
priesthood, scheming to hang onto status and authority, and this
created a fundamental flaw in how scripture is understood by both Jews
and Christians. I will start a new thread on this subject.
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
14 Nov 2006 06:56:59 AM |
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On 13 Nov 2006 18:04:46 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
The fall of Israel is the most significant event in bible history
And according to Jesus, that meant that it was over.
Luke 21:20-22
20) But when you see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies,
then know that ITS desolation is near.
21) Then let those who are IN JUDEA flee to the mountains,
let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not
those who are in the country enter her.
22) For THESE are the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS
which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
14 Nov 2006 09:12:31 AM |
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Azaliah wrote:
On 13 Nov 2006 18:04:46 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
The fall of Israel is the most significant event in bible history
And according to Jesus, that meant that it was over.
Luke 21:20-22
20) But when you see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies,
then know that ITS desolation is near.
21) Then let those who are IN JUDEA flee to the mountains,
let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not
those who are in the country enter her.
22) For THESE are the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS
which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.
Azaliah:
Luke 21:22...Does the word "these" mean these day during which he was
speaking, or the days which he was speaking of? It is important to
note that "these" days which will be dangerous for Judeans, and
Jerusalem will be surrounded with armies, will result in "all things"
which are written to "be fulfilled".
Consider now all the things which must be fulfilled: The battle of
Armageddon must be waged, the christ and his body(army) must win the
battle, changing all those who are Israel in spirit, in the twinkling
of an eye, into Israel in fact, resurrected from the dead, God must
make His new covenant with resurrected Israel, writing His laws forever
on Israel's hearts so that Israel will forever do by nature the things
contained in God's laws, thus forever fulfilling the everlasting old
covenant, the christ must make his triumphal entry into his
bride(Jerusalem), a sexual metaphore refering to the marriage between
the christ and the promised land, the christ must receive David's
throne, God must establish David's throne forever, Abraham's
descendants(resurrected Israel) must inherit(conquer) all the land
between the Euphrates and the NIle, the christ must rule with a rod of
iron, he must make his enemies his foot stool, all the world leaders
must come to Jerusalem to celebrate Jewish feasts, and Israel must
become a blessing to all the nations...then Luke 21: 22 will be
complete.
The convenient wording; "all things...will be fulfilled" should not
simply be quoted as a technical arguement, it must be quoted in the
greater context in which it was written.
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
14 Nov 2006 11:16:21 AM |
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On 14 Nov 2006 07:12:31 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah wrote:
On 13 Nov 2006 18:04:46 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
The fall of Israel is the most significant event in bible history
And according to Jesus, that meant that it was over.
Luke 21:20-22
20) But when you see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies,
then know that ITS desolation is near.
21) Then let those who are IN JUDEA flee to the mountains,
let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not
those who are in the country enter her.
22) For THESE are the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS
which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.
Azaliah:
Luke 21:22...Does the word "these" mean
And here you start your word games again.
these day during which he was
speaking, or the days which he was speaking of? It is important to
note that "these" days which will be dangerous for Judeans, and
Jerusalem will be surrounded with armies, will result in "all things"
which are written to "be fulfilled".
Consider now all the things which must be fulfilled:
You mean according to you, while you make all your
doctrinal claims, which you cannot prove Scripturally.
I will trust Jesus, not you. He said "ALL THINGS WRITTEN...
FULFILLED". He did not qualify it according to what you
happen to want to believe.
You are unreachable. You don't care a whit what the Bible
says, which is why you have not quoted it once and have
tried to reword it when I did.
Goodbye.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
16 Nov 2006 12:30:14 PM |
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Shame on you Azaliah:
You snipped all the things that are yet to be fulfilled, without
addressing any of them...LOL Azaliah wrote:
On 14 Nov 2006 07:12:31 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah wrote:
On 13 Nov 2006 18:04:46 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
The fall of Israel is the most significant event in bible history
And according to Jesus, that meant that it was over.
Luke 21:20-22
20) But when you see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies,
then know that ITS desolation is near.
21) Then let those who are IN JUDEA flee to the mountains,
let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not
those who are in the country enter her.
22) For THESE are the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS
which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.
Azaliah:
Luke 21:22...Does the word "these" mean
And here you start your word games again.
these day during which he was
speaking, or the days which he was speaking of? It is important to
note that "these" days which will be dangerous for Judeans, and
Jerusalem will be surrounded with armies, will result in "all things"
which are written to "be fulfilled".
Consider now all the things which must be fulfilled:
You mean according to you, while you make all your
doctrinal claims, which you cannot prove Scripturally.
I will trust Jesus, not you. He said "ALL THINGS WRITTEN...
FULFILLED". He did not qualify it according to what you
happen to want to believe.
You are unreachable. You don't care a whit what the Bible
says, which is why you have not quoted it once and have
tried to reword it when I did.
Goodbye.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
14 Nov 2006 07:36:57 AM |
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Provoker wrote:
Azaliah wrote:
On 12 Nov 2006 15:22:08 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Provoker" <provoker@3web.com> shouted thusly:
Azaliah wrote:
I made a statement which I am fully prepared to back up with scripture,
And yet, you refuse to every time.
Azaliah:
I wish you would quit saying that. I back everything I say with
scripture.
No, you don't, which is why I keep saying it.
In other words, even though Scripture says that God fulfilled
His promise, you don't care. YOU WANT TO BELIEVE that it
hasn't happened yet and so, you try to redefine even simple,
basic words, in order to fit your doctrine.
You come up with a doctrine and when Scripture proves it
wrong, you claim that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.
I don't have a doctrine Azaliah.
Yes, you do and you stated it. And here, again, you deny that
God fulfilled His promise.
Did God promise Abraham that his descendants would rule all the land
between the Euphrates and the Nile? Did God tell Israel that it would
rule all the land promised to Abraham? Did God promise that He would
establish David's kingdom forever, with David's descendants always on
the throne? Did David's kingdom fall into non-existence at the end of
Solomon's reign, and has not existed since? Did Davidic kingdom ever
rule all the land between the Euphrates and the Nile? Would Joshua
even know, since he was long dead before Israel even had a king?
How could the Joshua statement possibly be correct?
Assuming that every conflicting statement in the bible is true, has
spawned 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing sects of Christianity.
Context is always the key to interpretation, and the story of
continuity is always the greater context.
Once again, you fail to note that God also said that if they
served other gods, that He would rip them from the land.
God fulfilled His promise (which you deny) and then they
did serve other gods. Contract violated and null and void.
Azaliah:
God made His covenant with a national **assembly** known as Israel, not
individual Israelites. It was never Israelite national policy to serve
other gods, and after covenant Israel fell into non-existence, no
covenant Israel existed to break any of God's commands, or for God to
punish in any way.
As I have already said, if a contract was null and void when one person
failed to maintain his covenant obligations, all the lawyers would go
out of business. The old covenant was simply a conditional
promise..."If you do this, then I will do this", with the obvious
implication that "if you don't, then I won't". Deut. 28 put fear into
Israelite hearts by Metaphorically implying a penalty phase which is
not actually stated in the covenant. The implied punishments in Deut.
28, are simply metaphores for all the problems that will naturally
befall a nation which does not love God or love one another.
Since covenant national Israel no longer existed after it's fall,
whatever the two resulting, warring, enemy nations did, or did not do,
had no effect on the everlasting covenant God had made with national
Israel.
The fall of Israel is the most significant event in bible history, but
Among many others, this is a bald faced arrogant lie! For someone who
claims to have been taught by the Spirit, I am left to wonder which
spirit it was that taught you, who were these special teachers that
taught you such a lie? The most significant event in Bible History,
was not the fall of Israel! The most significant event in all of
history, including Bible History, is the crucificixtion and resurection
of Jesus Christ! If Christ be not raised, our faith is vain! We are
told that the function of the Holy Spirit is to lift up Christ, which
you have not done throughout your many posts, and certainly not here!
The fall of Israel is granted a significant fact, but to say it is the
most significant at best is error, and at worst heresy, and considering
your other statements, I suspect the latter! You attempt to mislead an
redirect at almost every point along the way! Any claim to mystic
understanding, as if that is some unassailable position, is suspect at
best, for we are taught that we have a common faith, once delivered to
the Saints! Any special understanding, that claims to be new, infact
denies in that same statement that it has anything to do with the Faith
once delivered to the Saints! I have yet to hear you address any other
subject than some futuristic conjectures which seems to be the main
playground of the Devil, who knows that He has already lost the war,
and only has a dreadful understanding and anticipation of the judgement
to come! Your grasping at straws tell me more about your spiritual
condition, than any words that you propound!
I do not believe that it is to late for you to repent and turn from
your sin! Accept the Sacrifice that Jesus made for you, by Shedding
His own Blood! Allow the Blood to wash away your Sins! Then see Jesus
resurrected in Glory, and Know that the Father has accepted the Blood
of Jesus for your sins, and the forgiveness of sins of the Whole world!
Then you will understand what is the most significant event that has
ever occurred! Then you will know the lies that you have been taught,
and who taught them to you!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
it's significance has been lost due to the lies of a defunct
priesthood, scheming to hang onto status and authority, and this
created a fundamental flaw in how scripture is understood by both Jews
and Christians. I will start a new thread on this subject.
.
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: GOD'S DISTINCTIVE PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL |
14 Nov 2006 09:57:01 AM |
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gatekeeper wrote:
Among many others, this is a bald faced arrogant lie! For someone who
claims to have been taught by the Spirit, I am left to wonder which
spirit it was that taught you, who were these special teachers that
taught you such a lie?
Gatekeeper:
You may freely call me mistaken, but in areas which must be believed by
faith, it is not for you to call me a liar!!! Further, I have never
claimed to be taught by the spirit, or any special teachers. If you
interpret the bible the way you interpret my posts, no wonder you think
I am wrong...LOL
The most significant event in Bible History,
was not the fall of Israel! The most significant event in all of
history, including Bible History, is the crucificixtion and resurection
of Jesus Christ! If Christ be not raised, our faith is vain! We are
told that the function of the Holy Spirit is to lift up Christ, which
you have not done throughout your many posts, and certainly not here!
While your indoctrination will not allow you to recognize it, I am
telling you the true story of the christ, as found in the story which
runs with continuity through the whole bible. Whatever spirit I have,
is causing me to lift up the true christ of the bible story, by
provoking you to consider the greater context of the whole continuous
bible story.
The fall of Israel is granted a significant fact, but to say it is the
most significant at best is error, | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
