| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Tim Bruening" |
| Date: |
07 Apr 2006 04:42:48 PM |
| Object: |
Gospel Of Judas |
Yesterday, the National Geographic Society revealed the long lost Gospel
of Judas (lost for 1700 years because the early church tried to destroy
all the copies). The Gospel of Judas purports to record conversations
between Jesus and Judas in the last week of their lives, in which Jesus
shared religious secrets not known by the other disciples, saying to
Judas "Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of
the kingdom." According to the Gospel of Judas, Jesus asked Judas to
turn him over to the authorities. In one key passage, Jesus says to
Judas "You will exceed all of them (the other disciples). For you will
sacrifice the man that clothes me." Jesus was referring not to his
tailor, but to his physical body. Jesus wanted Judas to help him get
rid of his flesh in order to liberate the divine being within.
It makes sense to me that Jesus would want to make certain that his
arrest, trial, Crucifixion, and Resurrection came off on schedule.
Jesus warned Judas that he would be despised by the other disciples,
saying "You will be cursed by the other generation - and you will come
to rule over them." This makes me wonder why Judas didn't ask Jesus to
write time delayed letters to the other disciples explaining that Jesus
had asked Judas to "betray" him.
The gospel ends with Jesus' arrest. No mention of the Crucifixion or
Resurrection. I assume that's because Judas died shortly after the
arrest, so he didn't experience the Resurrection.
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| User: "Tim Bruening" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 03:20:51 AM |
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Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <1144447974.840736.96690@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "vivapadrepio@aol.com" <vivapadrepio@aol.com> writes:
Tim Bruening wrote:
Yesterday, the National Geographic Society revealed the long lost Gospel
of Judas (lost for 1700 years because the early church tried to destroy
all the copies). The Gospel of Judas purports to record conversations
between Jesus and Judas in the last week of their lives, in which Jesus
shared religious secrets not known by the other disciples, saying to
Judas "Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of
the kingdom." According to the Gospel of Judas, Jesus asked Judas to
turn him over to the authorities. In one key passage, Jesus says to
Judas "You will exceed all of them (the other disciples). For you will
sacrifice the man that clothes me." Jesus was referring not to his
tailor, but to his physical body. Jesus wanted Judas to help him get
rid of his flesh in order to liberate the divine being within.
It makes sense to me that Jesus would want to make certain that his
arrest, trial, Crucifixion, and Resurrection came off on schedule.
Jesus warned Judas that he would be despised by the other disciples,
saying "You will be cursed by the other generation - and you will come
to rule over them." This makes me wonder why Judas didn't ask Jesus to
write time delayed letters to the other disciples explaining that Jesus
had asked Judas to "betray" him.
The gospel ends with Jesus' arrest. No mention of the Crucifixion or
Resurrection. I assume that's because Judas died shortly after the
arrest, so he didn't experience the Resurrection.
Jesus did nothing on his own, but that of the will of the Father.
Whether Jesus really did ask for Judas to turn him over to the
authorities is irrelevent, because it would have put Judas in a
position to say "No, I will not." And had he said that, Jesus would've
turned himself in anyway, whether alone or with an army of followers
behind him. "Not my will, but *your* will be done."
So Jesus -- knowing full well what would happen -- intentionally
presented Judas with the chance to damn himself when there was utterly
no reason for doing so?
I was figuring that Jesus needed Judas to bring the soldiers to arrest him so as to make certain that the Crucifixion and
Resurrection would happen on schedule. Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole plan to save mankind from its sins.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 08:54:06 AM |
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Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Cary Kittrell wrote:
vivapadrepio@aol.com writes:
Jesus did nothing on his own, but that of the will of the Father.
Whether Jesus really did ask for Judas to turn him over to the
authorities is irrelevent, because it would have put Judas in a
position to say "No, I will not." And had he said that, Jesus would've
turned himself in anyway, whether alone or with an army of followers
behind him. "Not my will, but *your* will be done."
So Jesus -- knowing full well what would happen -- intentionally
presented Judas with the chance to damn himself when there was
utterly no reason for doing so?
I was figuring that Jesus needed Judas to bring the soldiers to arrest
him so as to make certain that the Crucifixion and Resurrection would
happen on schedule. Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole
plan to save mankind from its sins.
Why didn't Jesus just turn himself in to the soldiers in the first
place? Too cowardly? Too much of a drama queen? Why the need
for a betrayer if he actually wanted to be arrested and killed?
Does this new gospel answer those questions?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 10:22:16 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Cary Kittrell wrote:
vivapadrepio@aol.com writes:
Jesus did nothing on his own, but that of the will of the Father.
Whether Jesus really did ask for Judas to turn him over to the
authorities is irrelevent, because it would have put Judas in a
position to say "No, I will not." And had he said that, Jesus would've
turned himself in anyway, whether alone or with an army of followers
behind him. "Not my will, but *your* will be done."
So Jesus -- knowing full well what would happen -- intentionally
presented Judas with the chance to damn himself when there was
utterly no reason for doing so?
I was figuring that Jesus needed Judas to bring the soldiers to arrest
him so as to make certain that the Crucifixion and Resurrection would
happen on schedule. Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole
plan to save mankind from its sins.
Why didn't Jesus just turn himself in to the soldiers in the first
place? Too cowardly? Too much of a drama queen? Why the need
for a betrayer if he actually wanted to be arrested and killed?
===>The original plan appears to have been to arrange for an armed clash with
the Romans, to foce the hand of YHWH who was supposed to descend on
the Mount of Olives and fight the Gentile enemy. -- L.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
09 Apr 2006 08:08:51 AM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Cary Kittrell wrote:
So Jesus -- knowing full well what would happen -- intentionally
presented Judas with the chance to damn himself when there was
utterly no reason for doing so?
I was figuring that Jesus needed Judas to bring the soldiers to arrest
him so as to make certain that the Crucifixion and Resurrection would
happen on schedule. Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole
plan to save mankind from its sins.
Why didn't Jesus just turn himself in to the soldiers in the first
place? Too cowardly? Too much of a drama queen? Why the need
for a betrayer if he actually wanted to be arrested and killed?
===>The original plan appears to have been to arrange for an armed
clash with the Romans, to foce the hand of YHWH who was supposed
to descend on the Mount of Olives and fight the Gentile enemy. -- L.
Hence the whining about being forsaken while hanging on the cross?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
09 Apr 2006 05:55:56 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Cary Kittrell wrote:
So Jesus -- knowing full well what would happen -- intentionally
presented Judas with the chance to damn himself when there was
utterly no reason for doing so?
I was figuring that Jesus needed Judas to bring the soldiers to arrest
him so as to make certain that the Crucifixion and Resurrection would
happen on schedule. Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole
plan to save mankind from its sins.
Why didn't Jesus just turn himself in to the soldiers in the first
place? Too cowardly? Too much of a drama queen? Why the need
for a betrayer if he actually wanted to be arrested and killed?
===>The original plan appears to have been to arrange for an armed
clash with the Romans, to foce the hand of YHWH who was supposed
to descend on the Mount of Olives and fight the Gentile enemy. -- L.
Hence the whining about being forsaken while hanging on the cross?
===>Exactly.
He followed the script (mainly Zechariah) faithfully,
- marched into Jerusalem on a donkey
- chased the merchants out of the Temple
- engaged the Romans in battle on the Mount of Olives,
making it most convenient for YHWH to get involved,
but it was a no show!
Imagine the bitter disappointment! -- L.
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| User: "Tim Bruening" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
17 Oct 2006 01:57:58 AM |
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Libertarius wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Cary Kittrell wrote:
So Jesus -- knowing full well what would happen -- intentionally
presented Judas with the chance to damn himself when there was
utterly no reason for doing so?
I was figuring that Jesus needed Judas to bring the soldiers to arrest
him so as to make certain that the Crucifixion and Resurrection would
happen on schedule. Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole
plan to save mankind from its sins.
Why didn't Jesus just turn himself in to the soldiers in the first
place? Too cowardly? Too much of a drama queen? Why the need
for a betrayer if he actually wanted to be arrested and killed?
===>The original plan appears to have been to arrange for an armed
clash with the Romans, to foce the hand of YHWH who was supposed
to descend on the Mount of Olives and fight the Gentile enemy. -- L.
Hence the whining about being forsaken while hanging on the cross?
===>Exactly.
He followed the script (mainly Zechariah) faithfully,
- marched into Jerusalem on a donkey
- chased the merchants out of the Temple
- engaged the Romans in battle on the Mount of Olives,
making it most convenient for YHWH to get involved,
but it was a no show!
Imagine the bitter disappointment! -- L.
God DID intervene, by bringing Jesus back from the dead!
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
17 Oct 2006 10:25:18 AM |
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On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 23:57:58 -0700, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
God DID intervene, by bringing Jesus back from the dead!
And the proof of that is that there's no body in the tomb (or any sign
of where the tomb was supposed to be).
He even performed another miracle - he wiped out all references to
Nazareth that occurred before Jesus' death.
Same proof that Bigfoot exists - the missing footprints.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Tim Bruening" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
09 Apr 2006 08:40:37 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Cary Kittrell wrote:
So Jesus -- knowing full well what would happen -- intentionally
presented Judas with the chance to damn himself when there was
utterly no reason for doing so?
I was figuring that Jesus needed Judas to bring the soldiers to arrest
him so as to make certain that the Crucifixion and Resurrection would
happen on schedule. Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole
plan to save mankind from its sins.
Why didn't Jesus just turn himself in to the soldiers in the first
place? Too cowardly? Too much of a drama queen? Why the need
for a betrayer if he actually wanted to be arrested and killed?
===>The original plan appears to have been to arrange for an armed
clash with the Romans, to foce the hand of YHWH who was supposed
to descend on the Mount of Olives and fight the Gentile enemy. -- L.
Hence the whining about being forsaken while hanging on the cross?
===>Exactly.
He followed the script (mainly Zechariah) faithfully,
- marched into Jerusalem on a donkey
- chased the merchants out of the Temple
- engaged the Romans in battle on the Mount of Olives,
making it most convenient for YHWH to get involved,
but it was a no show!
Imagine the bitter disappointment! -- L.
Yet Jesus didn't resist being arrested.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
09 Apr 2006 09:34:53 PM |
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Tim Bruening wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Cary Kittrell wrote:
So Jesus -- knowing full well what would happen -- intentionally
presented Judas with the chance to damn himself when there was
utterly no reason for doing so?
I was figuring that Jesus needed Judas to bring the soldiers to arrest
him so as to make certain that the Crucifixion and Resurrection would
happen on schedule. Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole
plan to save mankind from its sins.
Why didn't Jesus just turn himself in to the soldiers in the first
place? Too cowardly? Too much of a drama queen? Why the need
for a betrayer if he actually wanted to be arrested and killed?
===>The original plan appears to have been to arrange for an armed
clash with the Romans, to foce the hand of YHWH who was supposed
to descend on the Mount of Olives and fight the Gentile enemy. -- L.
Hence the whining about being forsaken while hanging on the cross?
===>Exactly.
He followed the script (mainly Zechariah) faithfully,
- marched into Jerusalem on a donkey
- chased the merchants out of the Temple
- engaged the Romans in battle on the Mount of Olives,
making it most convenient for YHWH to get involved,
but it was a no show!
Imagine the bitter disappointment! -- L.
Yet Jesus didn't resist being arrested.
===>How do you know that? -- L.
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| User: "Midjis" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 03:45:49 AM |
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Tim Bruening wrote:
Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole plan to save mankind from
its sins.
A plan of an almighty God can be thwarted?
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| User: "Tim Bruening" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 03:47:32 AM |
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Midjis wrote:
Tim Bruening wrote:
Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole plan to save mankind from
its sins.
A plan of an almighty God can be thwarted?
Yes. Adam and Eve did so simply by eating forbidden fruit!
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 10:19:33 AM |
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Tim Bruening wrote:
Midjis wrote:
Tim Bruening wrote:
Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole plan to save mankind from
its sins.
A plan of an almighty God can be thwarted?
Yes. Adam and Eve did so simply by eating forbidden fruit!
===>So much for an "omniscient" (all-knowing) "God"! ;-) -- L.
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| User: "Midjis" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 05:29:29 AM |
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Tim Bruening wrote:
Tim Bruening wrote:
Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole plan to save mankind from
its sins.
A plan of an almighty God can be thwarted?
Yes. Adam and Eve did so simply by eating forbidden fruit!
More proof, then, that He is not as almighty as His followers claim.
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| User: "Tim Bruening" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 05:50:38 AM |
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Midjis wrote:
Tim Bruening wrote:
Tim Bruening wrote:
Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole plan to save mankind from
its sins.
A plan of an almighty God can be thwarted?
Yes. Adam and Eve did so simply by eating forbidden fruit!
More proof, then, that He is not as almighty as His followers claim.
Jesus was Crucified and Resurrected during Passover, when lots of tourists
were visiting Jerusalem, giving the Resurrection maximum public exposure and
therefore the maximum salvational effect. The effect might have been less if
Jesus had been Resurrected a few weeks before or a few weeks after Passover,
so it well behooved Jesus to make certain that he was Crucified and
Resurrected during Passover. This would give him reason to instruct Judas to
lead the arresting officers to Jesus during Passover.
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed out all
the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed. I bet that he
did so to provoke the Pharisees into having him arrested and executed that
very week.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 09:07:11 AM |
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Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 10:23:11 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 12:19:29 PM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
Isn't it considered a "Gnostic" gospel by many scholars?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 03:44:57 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
Isn't it considered a "Gnostic" gospel by many scholars?
===>Indeed, both the Pauline letters as well as that Gospel contain
distinct elements of Gnosticism.
In fact, without the Gnostic idea of the "Demiourgos", the concept of
"divine sacrifice" and "redemption" makes no sense at all. -- L.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
10 Apr 2006 06:17:00 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
Isn't it considered a "Gnostic" gospel by many scholars?
===>Originally, most likely.
It was edited to make it a bit more like the other Church-approved
Gospels, e.g. by adding an extra Chapter 21, following a well-conlcluded
Ch. 20; also some verses stressing that Jesus was in the "flesh",
contrary to some Gnostic ("Docetist") ideas. -- L.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
11 Apr 2006 07:38:06 AM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
Isn't it considered a "Gnostic" gospel by many scholars?
===>Originally, most likely.
It was edited to make it a bit more like the other Church-approved
Gospels, e.g. by adding an extra Chapter 21, following a well-conlcluded
Ch. 20; also some verses stressing that Jesus was in the "flesh",
contrary to some Gnostic ("Docetist") ideas. -- L.
They weren't "true" Christians, according to most modern Christians,
just like the Mormons aren't "true" Christians, according to them.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas - Docetism in Philippians |
13 Apr 2006 06:01:33 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
Isn't it considered a "Gnostic" gospel by many scholars?
===>Originally, most likely.
It was edited to make it a bit more like the other Church-approved
Gospels, e.g. by adding an extra Chapter 21, following a well-conlcluded
Ch. 20; also some verses stressing that Jesus was in the "flesh",
contrary to some Gnostic ("Docetist") ideas. -- L.
They weren't "true" Christians, according to most modern Christians,
just like the Mormons aren't "true" Christians, according to them.
===>And the Episcopalians are not true according to Rome, and
the Roman Catholics are not true according to the Evangelicals and
none of the other sects or denominations are true from the point of view
of any one of them.
But in fact the "Orthodox" Christianity obviously emerged from a
background of Gnosticism, as shown by the Pauline letters* and
the Johannine Gospel. -- L.
*E.g. "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant,
and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death..."
Phil. 2:7-8
A more modern translation would be that he was "morphed" to look
like an earthling.
That is pretty much what Docetism was teaching. -- L.
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| User: "Tim Bruening" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas - Docetism in Philippians |
14 Apr 2006 02:20:09 AM |
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Libertarius wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
Isn't it considered a "Gnostic" gospel by many scholars?
===>Originally, most likely.
It was edited to make it a bit more like the other Church-approved
Gospels, e.g. by adding an extra Chapter 21, following a well-conlcluded
Ch. 20; also some verses stressing that Jesus was in the "flesh",
contrary to some Gnostic ("Docetist") ideas. -- L.
They weren't "true" Christians, according to most modern Christians,
just like the Mormons aren't "true" Christians, according to them.
===>And the Episcopalians are not true according to Rome, and
the Roman Catholics are not true according to the Evangelicals and
none of the other sects or denominations are true from the point of view
of any one of them.
The Roman Catholics accept the baptisms and marriages conducted by other Christian
churches. According to the Decree on Ecumenism, the Catholic Church teaches that
all Catholics should honor Protestants who are saved by faith and baptism. They
"are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church" (Decree on
Ecumenism, 3). I read this on page 131 of "This Is Our Faith: A Catholic
Catechism for Adult, by Michael Francis Pennock, copyright 1998.
The Catholic Church also respects the Eastern Orthodox church, which keeps all the
basic pre schism beliefs, celebrating all the sacraments and having a valid
hierarchy and priesthood. The basic difference is over the role of the Pope (whom
the Eastern Orthodox say doesn't govern the entire church). Major efforts towards
reunion have been made since the Second Vatican Conference of the 1960s.
But in fact the "Orthodox" Christianity obviously emerged from a
background of Gnosticism, as shown by the Pauline letters* and
the Johannine Gospel. -- L.
*E.g. "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant,
and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death..."
Phil. 2:7-8
A more modern translation would be that he was "morphed" to look
like an earthling.
That is pretty much what Docetism was teaching. -- L.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas - Docetism in Philippians |
14 Apr 2006 03:17:57 PM |
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Tim Bruening wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
Isn't it considered a "Gnostic" gospel by many scholars?
===>Originally, most likely.
It was edited to make it a bit more like the other Church-approved
Gospels, e.g. by adding an extra Chapter 21, following a well-conlcluded
Ch. 20; also some verses stressing that Jesus was in the "flesh",
contrary to some Gnostic ("Docetist") ideas. -- L.
They weren't "true" Christians, according to most modern Christians,
just like the Mormons aren't "true" Christians, according to them.
===>And the Episcopalians are not true according to Rome, and
the Roman Catholics are not true according to the Evangelicals and
none of the other sects or denominations are true from the point of view
of any one of them.
The Roman Catholics accept the baptisms and marriages conducted by other Christian
churches. According to the Decree on Ecumenism, the Catholic Church teaches that
all Catholics should honor Protestants who are saved by faith and baptism. They
"are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church" (Decree on
Ecumenism, 3). I read this on page 131 of "This Is Our Faith: A Catholic
Catechism for Adult, by Michael Francis Pennock, copyright 1998.
The Catholic Church also respects the Eastern Orthodox church, which keeps all the
basic pre schism beliefs, celebrating all the sacraments and having a valid
hierarchy and priesthood. The basic difference is over the role of the Pope (whom
the Eastern Orthodox say doesn't govern the entire church). Major efforts towards
reunion have been made since the Second Vatican Conference of the 1960s.
===>Yes, Vatican 2 did make some major changes, but it does not mean that
either the Orthodox or the Protestants are considered to be believers in the
"true" faith!
And ask any "evangelicals", they will usually tell you
they are "Christian, not Catholic".
But in fact the "Orthodox" Christianity obviously emerged from a
background of Gnosticism, as shown by the Pauline letters* and
the Johannine Gospel. -- L.
*E.g. "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant,
and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death..."
Phil. 2:7-8
A more modern translation would be that he was "morphed" to look
like an earthling.
That is pretty much what Docetism was teaching. -- L.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas. |
11 Apr 2006 10:38:29 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in alt.atheism
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
The Gospel of John says the above happened at the beginning of
Jesus' ministry, not the end.
===>"John" is a heavily edited cut-and-paste job. -- L.
Isn't it considered a "Gnostic" gospel by many scholars?
===>Originally, most likely.
It was edited to make it a bit more like the other Church-approved
Gospels, e.g. by adding an extra Chapter 21, following a well-conlcluded
Ch. 20; also some verses stressing that Jesus was in the "flesh",
contrary to some Gnostic ("Docetist") ideas. -- L.
They weren't "true" Christians, according to most modern Christians,
just like the Mormons aren't "true" Christians, according to them.
===>Sure, sure.
Only one's own sect is the "true" Christian.
It has always been that way, though the Church produced the NT to show
that it was a unified movement from Jerusalem all the way to Rome. -- L.
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| User: "Midjis" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 07:09:59 AM |
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Tim Bruening wrote:
Maybe a delay would have thwarted the whole plan to save mankind
from its sins.
A plan of an almighty God can be thwarted?
Yes. Adam and Eve did so simply by eating forbidden fruit!
More proof, then, that He is not as almighty as His followers claim.
Jesus was Crucified and Resurrected during Passover, when lots of
tourists were visiting Jerusalem, giving the Resurrection maximum
public exposure and therefore the maximum salvational effect. The
effect might have been less if Jesus had been Resurrected a few weeks
before or a few weeks after Passover, so it well behooved Jesus to
make certain that he was Crucified and Resurrected during Passover.
This would give him reason to instruct Judas to lead the arresting
officers to Jesus during Passover.
Also, just after he had arrived in Jerusalem on the Sunday before his
Crucifixion to celebrate Passover, Jesus went to the Temple and tossed
out all the merchants, in the only fit on anger Jesus ever displayed.
I bet that he did so to provoke the Pharisees into having him arrested
and executed that very week.
You do seem to have trouble sticking to a point.
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| User: "Your Name Here=Harvey" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 07:51:08 PM |
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In article <4436DCD8.440B922@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, says...
Yesterday, the National Geographic Society revealed the long lost Gospel
of Judas (lost for 1700 years because the early church tried to destroy
all the copies). The Gospel of Judas purports to record conversations
between Jesus and Judas in the last week of their lives, in which Jesus
shared religious secrets not known by the other disciples, saying to
Judas "Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of
the kingdom." According to the Gospel of Judas, Jesus asked Judas to
turn him over to the authorities. In one key passage, Jesus says to
Judas "You will exceed all of them (the other disciples). For you will
sacrifice the man that clothes me." Jesus was referring not to his
tailor, but to his physical body. Jesus wanted Judas to help him get
rid of his flesh in order to liberate the divine being within.
It makes sense to me that Jesus would want to make certain that his
arrest, trial, Crucifixion, and Resurrection came off on schedule.
Jesus warned Judas that he would be despised by the other disciples,
saying "You will be cursed by the other generation - and you will come
to rule over them." This makes me wonder why Judas didn't ask Jesus to
write time delayed letters to the other disciples explaining that Jesus
had asked Judas to "betray" him.
The gospel ends with Jesus' arrest. No mention of the Crucifixion or
Resurrection. I assume that's because Judas died shortly after the
arrest, so he didn't experience the Resurrection.
Telling the truth from the fiction is not easy.
I believe the above is fiction, just like the da Vinci code stuff is.
I tend to go along with the Talmud Jmmanuel material
http://www.tjresearch/tjheresy.html
In this version of events - Judas is indeed Jesus' most trusted apostle,
and scribe. Also treasurer for the group.
He did not betray Jesus - but another man, also named Judas did, and
there was a deliberate confusion between the two, written by the gospel
writers.
And Jesus did not die at the crucifixion, but was near death, to be taken
for to be dead, and later revived. Or should I say - hurriedly revived,
because time was crucial for him.
He slowly recovered and was spirited away from Jerusalem - he journeyed
onto India, with his mother Mary, but Mary died en route because of her
old age. Jesus settled in Kashmir, where he lived till old age, and is
buried there.
There is all sorts of evidence and a trail for all of the above...
Of course, this does mean that Christianity is all based on a lie,
and Jesus wanted nothing to do with it.
There is all sorts of information for this - but of course, mainstream
media, and the academic community are not interested in this version of
events, which goes against the establishment and acceptance of Christianity.
There is not any surviving text of the Talmud Jmmanuel, to satisfy the
critics that it did exist, but James Deardorff makes a very good case
based upon the translation content. (I do believe that it is the
content itself that is of primary interest - because everything has
to make sense in itself and within itself.)
If you would track down this videoed lecture he gave - it is very
interesting viewing.
Talmud of Jmmanuel - Prof James Deardorff - Tj & Bible Comparison (3 Of 4)
(Ufo Billy Meier).avi 519921 KB
I found it more absorbable than the same material presented at his
website, ie. the TJ and Bible comparisons...
Harvey
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 08:45:24 PM |
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Thanks to all the hoopla, I went oug and bought The Gospel of Judas
(Kasser, Meyer, Wurst, Ehrman et al commenting).
I couldn't make heads or tails out of it, especially since somewhere
between "a lot" and "most" of it is still missing. Granted, I'm not
exactly a Coptic scholar, but I've rummaged through various parts of
the bible, the apocrypha, the Gospel of Thomas, some of the Nag Hamadi
books, and a whole lot of commentary. It's all too disorganized for me
to claim any expertise. Nevertheless, I ought to be able to find
something there in the plain text, if anything is there at all. About
all I can get out of this Gospel is:
1. Jesus laughed at people's ignorance a lot, then when asked why he
was laughing responded rather unconvincingly, "I wasn't laughing at
you, but [seven lines missing]."
2. All the apostles but Judas were dumb.
3. Judas was kind of dumb.
4. Jesus called Judas the "thirteenth" a lot before he was even
replaced.
5. The story is way different from the various stories in the
canonical New Testament, but there's no reason to think it's any more
accurate.
Incidentally, is there anyone other than me who thinks that the story
that Judas "fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines
spilled out" [Acts 1:18] is a little suspicious. You wonder if he had
some help "falling." I imagine some followers following Judas out to
his new land and expressing their disapproval of his actions in selling
out Jesus. Maybe someone thought he'd earned an *****-kicking. Now
that's true biblical scholarship. Only thing is, I can't blame that
inspired interpretation on the Holy Spirit. I don't think they told me
that in Sunday School either. I pretty much thought it up all by
myself.
Thandarr
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| User: "Tim Bruening" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 09:15:54 PM |
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wrote:
Thanks to all the hoopla, I went oug and bought The Gospel of Judas
(Kasser, Meyer, Wurst, Ehrman et al commenting).
I couldn't make heads or tails out of it, especially since somewhere
between "a lot" and "most" of it is still missing. Granted, I'm not
exactly a Coptic scholar, but I've rummaged through various parts of
the bible, the apocrypha, the Gospel of Thomas, some of the Nag Hamadi
books, and a whole lot of commentary. It's all too disorganized for me
to claim any expertise. Nevertheless, I ought to be able to find
something there in the plain text, if anything is there at all. About
all I can get out of this Gospel is:
1. Jesus laughed at people's ignorance a lot, then when asked why he
was laughing responded rather unconvincingly, "I wasn't laughing at
you, but [seven lines missing]."
2. All the apostles but Judas were dumb.
3. Judas was kind of dumb.
4. Jesus called Judas the "thirteenth" a lot before he was even
replaced.
5. The story is way different from the various stories in the
canonical New Testament, but there's no reason to think it's any more
accurate.
Incidentally, is there anyone other than me who thinks that the story
that Judas "fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines
spilled out" [Acts 1:18] is a little suspicious. You wonder if he had
some help "falling." I imagine some followers following Judas out to
his new land and expressing their disapproval of his actions in selling
out Jesus. Maybe someone thought he'd earned an *****-kicking. Now
that's true biblical scholarship. Only thing is, I can't blame that
inspired interpretation on the Holy Spirit. I don't think they told me
that in Sunday School either. I pretty much thought it up all by
myself.
I had read that Judas Iscariot had committed suicide by hanging himself!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
08 Apr 2006 10:19:03 PM |
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That's in Mt. 27:5. Another version. The other 3 gospels don't say
what happened to him at all (at least that I can find).
Thandarr
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| User: "Tim Bruening" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel Of Judas |
09 Apr 2006 08:35:51 PM |
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wrote:
That's in Mt. 27:5. Another version. The other 3 gospels don't say
what happened to him at all (at least that I can find).
If the other gospels are silent on Judas, I'm going to have to go with
Mr. Mt 27:5.
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