On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:38:18 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:29:09 -0700, "christian@velocitus.net"
<christian@velocitus.net> wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:35:57 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:

<snip>

JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .

That is a bunch of garbage made up centuries AFTER Jesus created His
church by a bunch of heretics. There is NOT ONE INSTANCE IN THE FIRST
CENTURY CHURCH OF EVEN ONE PERSON PRAYING TO A DEAD PERSON for
anything at all.

Sorry Jerry, but your religion has lied to you.

JP
Use that language again (Church teaches garbage) and I will no longer
dialogue with you on this thread. Do you think all deceased souls are
perfectly pure as is required to get to Heaven?

Oh well, there are others I correspond with. Lies and other "stuff"
that is made up centuries AFTER Christ's church was established and
passed off as "tradition" are garbage. Calling it such is simply
honest discussion.

JP
What Church did Christ establish that will last to the end of time? I
bet you can't give a coherent answer to that question.

That is an easy question to answer. Jesus established a CHURCH. The
Greek word is "ekklesia" and refers to any group gathered for a
purpose (check any Greek lexicon if you doubt me). There were town
ekklesias, farm ekklesias, etc.

The word does NOT MEAN, "religious organization" or
"religious/social/financial/political oligarky.

To answer the question is therefore very easy. Jesus said:
Matt 18:19-20
19 "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning
anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in
heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name ,
I am there in the midst of them."

By DEFINITION, any gathering of Christians together in His Name IS
Christ's church. We KNOW He is with us when we are alone, whether in
a cave or on a mountain top, but when we gather together in His Name,
He is with us as His "ekklesia."

That includes Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelical Frees, Presbyterians,
and a myriad of other "group names" who have received Jesus Christ as
our Savior.

A linguistic lesson: the word "lies" carries with it an intent to
deceive. That is unChristian and uncivil.

1 Tim 4:1-5

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart
from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of
demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience
seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to
abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving
by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God
is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with
thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Hmm, the Bible uses the words "lies in hypocrisy" and I really don't
think the Bible is "unChristian and uncivil."

I think you are just a little oversensitive.

I do believe that all Christians who are in heaven are perfectly pure,
MADE THAT WAY BY JESUS, NOT by their own "goodness."

JP
How did they get that way and when?

When Jesus died on the cross, He paid the penalty for our sins and we
are cleansed by his blood spilt there.

Not by telling some guy in a little booth (I understand they don't use
the booths much any more) your sins.

1 John 1:6-10
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you,
that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that
we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not
practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the
light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus
Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth
is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to
forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If
we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is
not in us.

We go directly to God. HE forgives us and cleanses us, making us
pure.

Jesus said to pray to the Father. That's it.
We aren't even given any indication to pray to Jesus except for the concept
that He is.

JP
By what authority do you say that?

Scripture.

Matt 6:5-13
"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they
love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the
streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they
have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and
when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret
place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7
And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For
they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you
have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Verse 13 above is not in the Bible.

I cut and pasted it from my computer study Bible. I know, it is not
in YOUR Bible, but it is in mine.

It is not a big thing. It does not change my belief system in any
way.

Jesus is prayed to many places in scripture.

JP
Jesus established the Church and the Church has the power to teach
what is in the Scriptures and apply those teachings to our times. What
Church do you think Jesus established to last to the end of time?

I believe I answered that above. His church exists in every gathering
of Christians in His Name.

The inspired Word of God is "authority" enough for me. And God didn't
get that "authority" from the rcc.

JP
By what authority is the Bible the word of God?

God's authority. I sincerely HOPE you don't think that the rcc must
give God the authority to call it scripture!

Catholicism (RCC) is by no means or stretch of any imagination a Christian
religion. It isn't the original Christian religion and wasn't formed for
any other reason than a political ploy. Its members are flat out, lost. If
they, individually, eventually see the light ( a function of God), they no
longer will tolerate the heresy.
Conversing with them is useless unless one sees a glimmer of the Holy Spirit
in the recipient.

JP
It is time for you to stop asserting and bring some reason to our
discussion. What is the name of the Church that Jesus established that
would last to the end of time?
. . .

It has many "names."

Acts 24:10-15
Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered:
"Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this
nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, 11 because you may
ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to
Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple
disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues
or in the city. 13 Nor can they prove the things of which they now
accuse me. 14 But this I confess to you, that according to THE WAY,
which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing
all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

Acts 9:1-2
Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of
the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the
synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of THE WAY,
whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Acts 19:9-10
9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of
THE WAY before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the
disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

Acts 20:28
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which
the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the CHURCH OF GOD
which He purchased with His own blood.

1 Cor 1:2
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth,

Col 4:16
Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in
the church of the Laodiceans,

1 Thess 1:1
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord
Jesus Christ:

1 Tim 3:15
but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to
conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the
living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Heb 12:23
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn

Rev 2:1
"To the angel of the church of Ephesus

Lots of different names, but the same church. Baptists, Lutherans,
Evangelical frees, etc. Lots of different names. Lots of different
personalities. Same church.

Church does not mean political/social/financial/religious megopoly.

It simply means a group of Christians meeting together in the Name of
Jesus Christ.


Assertions? Naah. Just the facts. the TRUTH.

in Christ Jesus,
Christian

JP
None of those verses names the Church! What is the Church that Jesus
established?
. . .

Hmmm. Church of God. Church of the Thessalonians. Church of Christ.
all gatherings of Christians together in Christ's Name.

None of those verses names a religious/political/financial/social
organization. Just groups of Christians gathering together in Jesus.

Your CONCEPT of what a "church" is is badly skewed because of your
relgion's false teachings regarding it.

Sorry bout that.

in Christ Jesus,
Christian

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:38:16 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:12:59 -0700, "christian@velocitus.net"
<christian@velocitus.net> wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:35:56 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:

<snip>

JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .

That is a bunch of garbage made up centuries AFTER Jesus created His
church by a bunch of heretics. There is NOT ONE INSTANCE IN THE FIRST
CENTURY CHURCH OF EVEN ONE PERSON PRAYING TO A DEAD PERSON for
anything at all.

Sorry Jerry, but your religion has lied to you.

JP
You have apparently not read Second Maccabees? I should have written
that prayers are said through saints to God.
. . .

2nd Maccabees weren't added to the canon of scripture by the rcc until
the council of Trent in 1546. They weren't (according to the rcc)
"inspired" until then, I guess.

JP
The canon (Bible) was recognized about 393. If you want the exact date
I will have to research it.

That canon did NOT INCLUDE the Apocrypha. I have researched the
origins of scripture myself, so if you doubt, check it out. The
council of Trent in 1546 might be a good starting point.

They might even decide that first and Second Esdras and the Prayer of
Manasses has become "inspired" by next year! Who knows?

Sorry Jerry, but you REALLY have fallen for the flim-flam of your
religion.

JP
You seem to be infused with a great deal of hatred for Catholics and
the Church. Just where do you think the Bible came from anyway?

Where did the Bible come from?
2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to
heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and
the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no
prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation , 21 for
prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as
they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

God moved men to write it. The original church used it. Fakes were
introduced and rejected. And (just operating from memory) the
writings were gathered together about the time yo mentioned.

Gathering the writings together and throwing out the ones that were
known to be fraudulant (the pseudopigrapha) does NOT make the
gatherers (or if you prefer, the main publishers) become the authors.
The Author is God.

Uncivil language (lie) indicates failed reason.

Stating that a lies are lies is not unreasonable to do, Jerry.
Pointing out lies for what they are is VERY reasonable.

in Christ Jesus,
Christian

JP
The word "lies" carries with it an intent to deceive. That is
unChristian and uncivil.

Since the rcc does deceive intentionally it is neither "unChristian"
OR uncivil.

1 Tim 4:1-5
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart
from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of
demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience
seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to
abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving
by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God
is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with
thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Back in the 60's when I was still a member of the rcc, we were
forbidden to eat meat on Fridays. Priests are still forbidden to
marry.

Verse 2 says, "speaking lies in hypocrisy. . ."

Do you think the Bible is "unChristian and uncivil?" Or are you just
a little oversensitive?

in Christ Jesus,
Christian

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:38:16 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:12:59 -0700, "christian@velocitus.net"
<christian@velocitus.net> wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:35:56 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:

<snip>

JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .

That is a bunch of garbage made up centuries AFTER Jesus created His
church by a bunch of heretics. There is NOT ONE INSTANCE IN THE FIRST
CENTURY CHURCH OF EVEN ONE PERSON PRAYING TO A DEAD PERSON for
anything at all.

Sorry Jerry, but your religion has lied to you.

JP
You have apparently not read Second Maccabees? I should have written
that prayers are said through saints to God.
. . .

2nd Maccabees weren't added to the canon of scripture by the rcc until
the council of Trent in 1546. They weren't (according to the rcc)
"inspired" until then, I guess.

JP
The canon (Bible) was recognized about 393. If you want the exact date
I will have to research it.

That canon did NOT INCLUDE the Apocrypha. I have researched the
origins of scripture myself, so if you doubt, check it out. The
council of Trent in 1546 might be a good starting point.

They might even decide that first and Second Esdras and the Prayer of
Manasses has become "inspired" by next year! Who knows?

Sorry Jerry, but you REALLY have fallen for the flim-flam of your
religion.

JP
You seem to be infused with a great deal of hatred for Catholics and
the Church. Just where do you think the Bible came from anyway?

Where did the Bible come from?
2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to
heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and
the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no
prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation , 21 for
prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as
they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

God moved men to write it. The original church used it. Fakes were
introduced and rejected. And (just operating from memory) the
writings were gathered together about the time yo mentioned.

Gathering the writings together and throwing out the ones that were
known to be fraudulant (the pseudopigrapha) does NOT make the
gatherers (or if you prefer, the main publishers) become the authors.
The Author is God.

Uncivil language (lie) indicates failed reason.

Stating that a lies are lies is not unreasonable to do, Jerry.
Pointing out lies for what they are is VERY reasonable.

in Christ Jesus,
Christian

JP
The word "lies" carries with it an intent to deceive. That is
unChristian and uncivil.

Since the rcc does deceive intentionally it is neither "unChristian"
OR uncivil.

1 Tim 4:1-5
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart
from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of
demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience
seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to
abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving
by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God
is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with
thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Back in the 60's when I was still a member of the rcc, we were
forbidden to eat meat on Fridays. Priests are still forbidden to
marry.

Verse 2 says, "speaking lies in hypocrisy. . ."

Do you think the Bible is "unChristian and uncivil?" Or are you just
a little oversensitive?

in Christ Jesus,
Christian