| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Streamer" |
| Date: |
09 Dec 2004 10:40:58 PM |
| Object: |
Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
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Isa:44:9: They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their
delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they
see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
Isa:44:10: Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is
profitable for nothing?
Isa:44:11: Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they
are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they
shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.
Isa:44:12: The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and
fashioneth it with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms:
yea, he is hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is
faint.
Isa:44:13: The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a
line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and
maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that
it may remain in the house.
Isa:44:14: He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak,
which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he
planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.
Isa:44:15: Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and
warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god,
and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
Isa:44:16: He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth
flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and
saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
Isa:44:17: And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image:
he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith,
Deliver me; for thou art my god.
Isa:44:18: They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes,
that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Isa:44:19: And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor
understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have
baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and
shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the
stock of a tree?
----------------------------------------------
The Bible is clear. Open your heart.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 12:24:38 AM |
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On 9-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Isa:44:9: They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their
delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they
see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
Isa:44:10: Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is
profitable for nothing?
<snip>
Isa:44:19: And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge
nor
understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I
have
baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it:
and
shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the
stock of a tree?
----------------------------------------------
The Bible is clear. Open your heart.
Open your heart and mind.. and consider...
"You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two
ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the
other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat at
its two ends.The cherubim shall have their wings spread upward, covering the
mercy seat with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the
cherubim are to be turned toward the mercy seat."
(Exodus 25: 18-20)
"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a
standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he
looks at it, he will live. And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the
standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked
to the bronze serpent, he lived."
(Numbers 21: 8-9)
"Now he made the sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in
form, and its height was five cubits, and thirty cubits in circumference.
Under its brim gourds went around encircling it ten to a cubit, completely
surrounding the sea; the gourds were in two rows, cast with the rest. It
stood on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing
south, and three facing east; and the sea was set on top of them, and all
their rear parts turned inward. It was a handbreadth thick, and its brim was
made like the brim of a cup, as a lily blossom; it could hold two thousand
baths. Then he made the ten stands of bronze; the length of each stand was
four cubits and its width four cubits and its height three cubits. This was
the design of the stands: they had borders, even borders between the frames,
and on the borders which were between the frames were lions, oxen and
cherubim; and on the frames there was a pedestal above, and beneath the
lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work."
(1 Kings 7:23-29)
"Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twisted
linen and blue and purple and scarlet material; you shall make them with
cherubim, the work of a skillful workman."
(Exodus 26:1)
"The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was the other cherub.
He placed the cherubim in the midst of the inner house, and the wings of the
cherubim were spread out, so that the wing of the one was touching the one
wall, and the wing of the other cherub was touching the other wall. So their
wings were touching each other in the center of the house. He also overlaid
the cherubim with gold."
(1 Kings 6: 23-28)
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(Colossians 1: 15)
It seems that the Lord approves of images if they order our minds towards
Him and heavenly things. Worshipping the idol of a false god is a sin, but
creating images to remind us of His glory... is not.
H.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 01:02:32 AM |
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<hughbetcha@yessiree.ca> wrote in message
news:XoidnWaU3dKK3CTcRVn-rg@giganews.com...
On 9-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Isa:44:9: They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their
delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses;
they
see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
Isa:44:10: Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is
profitable for nothing?
<snip>
Isa:44:19: And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge
nor
understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I
have
baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it:
and
shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to
the
stock of a tree?
----------------------------------------------
The Bible is clear. Open your heart.
Open your heart and mind.. and consider...
"You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the
two
ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the
other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat at
its two ends.The cherubim shall have their wings spread upward, covering
the
mercy seat with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the
cherubim are to be turned toward the mercy seat."
(Exodus 25: 18-20)
"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a
standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he
looks at it, he will live. And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on
the
standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked
to the bronze serpent, he lived."
(Numbers 21: 8-9)
<snip>
If God told Noah to make an Ark, will you make one too ?
Anyway, those verses that you posted is irrelevant to Isa. 44.
Very different... And those are not for you. Those were for OT people like
Moses.
Are you Moses ?
If God said don't, then DONT.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 02:33:55 AM |
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On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a
standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he
looks at it, he will live. And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on
the
standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he
looked
to the bronze serpent, he lived."
(Numbers 21: 8-9)
<snip>
If God told Noah to make an Ark, will you make one too ?
Anyway, those verses that you posted is irrelevant to Isa. 44.
Very different... And those are not for you. Those were for OT people like
Moses.
Are you Moses ?
If God said don't, then DONT.
Point is, if God does not lie, nor change His mind... then why does He
prohibit 'graven' images in one breath, then command the creation of same
with the next? Obviously, He did not mean what you think He meant.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 02:53:49 AM |
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<hughbetcha@yessiree.ca> wrote in message
news:Dd6dnZ3xv6H-wiTcRVn-qQ@giganews.com...
On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a
standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he
looks at it, he will live. And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it
on
the
standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he
looked
to the bronze serpent, he lived."
(Numbers 21: 8-9)
<snip>
If God told Noah to make an Ark, will you make one too ?
Anyway, those verses that you posted is irrelevant to Isa. 44.
Very different... And those are not for you. Those were for OT people
like
Moses.
Are you Moses ?
If God said don't, then DONT.
Point is, if God does not lie, nor change His mind... then why does He
prohibit 'graven' images in one breath, then command the creation of same
with the next? Obviously, He did not mean what you think He meant.
Command the creation of SAME ? Absolutely not.
What is not for your, is not for you.
And those that God commanded them to do, they did it.
During the times of Adam, brothers & sisters are allowed to get married. Not
so this time. Not for us.
God did not change His mind. He finishes what he wants before, and tell you
now what not to do today.
But still God did not ask them to bow down to those nor pray unto those,
eversince. Never.
Sure you can have your mother's picture. But I assume you are intelligent
enough to know what we're talking about here. I was a devoted catholic, and
I know.
(did you read my previous post?)
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 03:26:13 AM |
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On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Point is, if God does not lie, nor change His mind... then why does He
prohibit 'graven' images in one breath, then command the creation of
same
with the next? Obviously, He did not mean what you think He meant.
Command the creation of SAME ? Absolutely not.
What is not for your, is not for you.
And those that God commanded them to do, they did it.
Then what is the difference between the images of angels that the Lord
commanded be made, and the images of angels in any Catholic church? Are you
suggesting that He makes exceptions to His own commandment at specific
times?
During the times of Adam, brothers & sisters are allowed to get married.
Not
so this time. Not for us.
God did not change His mind. He finishes what he wants before, and tell
you
now what not to do today.
The commandment was given at Sinai, recounted in Exodus... a long time
BEFORE He gave His instructions to create graven images on the Ark and the
Temple. It sure sounds like you're saying that He changes His mind and makes
exceptions.
But still God did not ask them to bow down to those nor pray unto those,
eversince. Never.
Repeat: bowing is simply a gesture of respect, intended for the person whom
the image represents. No praying or worshipping going on here.
Sure you can have your mother's picture. But I assume you are intelligent
enough to know what we're talking about here. I was a devoted catholic,
and
I know.
If you were a devout Catholic, then you must know that the saints are alive
in Heaven, and you may ask them to join their prayers with yours, for all
prayers are heard by God, and only He can answer them.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 04:05:23 AM |
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<hughbetcha@yessiree.ca> wrote in message
news:4LWdnc87weY49iTcRVn-sw@giganews.com...
On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Point is, if God does not lie, nor change His mind... then why does He
prohibit 'graven' images in one breath, then command the creation of
same
with the next? Obviously, He did not mean what you think He meant.
Command the creation of SAME ? Absolutely not.
What is not for your, is not for you.
And those that God commanded them to do, they did it.
Then what is the difference between the images of angels that the Lord
commanded be made, and the images of angels in any Catholic church? Are
you
suggesting that He makes exceptions to His own commandment at specific
times?
If you bowed down before them, then you commited sin.
It's like you're asking; If God commanded them to make a big post in the
temple, what is the difference of making one today ? Got it ?
During the times of Adam, brothers & sisters are allowed to get married.
Not
so this time. Not for us.
God did not change His mind. He finishes what he wants before, and tell
you
now what not to do today.
The commandment was given at Sinai, recounted in Exodus... a long time
BEFORE He gave His instructions to create graven images on the Ark and the
Temple. It sure sounds like you're saying that He changes His mind and
makes
exceptions.
Those graven images on the Ark are not meant to be bowed down nor to be
reminded of God as what you do today. Like a design from nice building.
God NEVER told us to make graven images to bow-down, serve, use as a
reminder, or use to respect... etc.
But still God did not ask them to bow down to those nor pray unto those,
eversince. Never.
Repeat: bowing is simply a gesture of respect, intended for the person
whom
the image represents. No praying or worshipping going on here.
Did God told you to pay respect to a piece of wood? Give me the verse.
Or you're just simply ADDING some teaching that doesn't come from God.
The Lord said;
Ex:20:5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the
LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Whatever your reason is, Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them.
And don't deny praying unto them...Or kissing those images.. I was there. I
know.
Sure you can have your mother's picture. But I assume you are intelligent
enough to know what we're talking about here. I was a devoted catholic,
and
I know.
If you were a devout Catholic, then you must know that the saints are
alive
in Heaven, and you may ask them to join their prayers with yours, for all
prayers are heard by God, and only He can answer them.
Can you give me a bible verse that says that we need to pray to those who
died ?
Can you also tell me how can you prove that one dead man can hear thousands
or millions of prayers at the same time ?
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that prays
to another (dead) person. Never.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 01:19:42 PM |
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On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Then what is the difference between the images of angels that the Lord
commanded be made, and the images of angels in any Catholic church? Are
you
suggesting that He makes exceptions to His own commandment at specific
times?
If you bowed down before them, then you commited sin.
It's like you're asking; If God commanded them to make a big post in the
temple, what is the difference of making one today ? Got it ?
No. You're still saying that God made an exception to His own commandment,
which is not possible... or does it say in the Bible that it was okay for
those particular Jews, but it is not alright for anyone else? If that's how
you interpret it, then I suspect that you are in error, since as we've
already established, God does not change His mind, lie, or contradict
Himself.
The commandment was given at Sinai, recounted in Exodus... a long time
BEFORE He gave His instructions to create graven images on the Ark and
the
Temple. It sure sounds like you're saying that He changes His mind and
makes
exceptions.
Those graven images on the Ark are not meant to be bowed down nor to be
reminded of God as what you do today. Like a design from nice building.
God NEVER told us to make graven images to bow-down, serve, use as a
reminder, or use to respect... etc.
Tell me, then, what WAS the purpose of those images? If not to reflect the
glory of Heaven, then what?
Repeat: bowing is simply a gesture of respect, intended for the person
whom
the image represents. No praying or worshipping going on here.
Did God told you to pay respect to a piece of wood? Give me the verse.
Or you're just simply ADDING some teaching that doesn't come from God.
Honoring the saints is part of the two thousand year old Christian Tradition
that, sadly, Protestants have forsaken. Read Mark 12:26-27. As you can see,
He is the God of the living. Those who have gone before us are alive (far
MORE 'alive' than we are) and aware in Heaven. They see us, hear us... SENSE
us, so we still honor them.
The Lord said;
Ex:20:5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I
the
LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon
the
children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
He forbade that 'graven images' not be worshipped as gods themselves, but He
did not forbid images that glorify Him or His.
Whatever your reason is, Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them.
And don't deny praying unto them...Or kissing those images.. I was there.
I
know.
If 'bow down' means worship, then yes, that's sinful. If it's a gesture of
respect, than it's not sinful. The difference is, what's in your heart.
Consider kissing... it's a gesture of respect as well (ever been to an
Italian wedding?) However, the Lord did not forbid kissing graven images
now, did He? So, is it okay to kiss an image as long as long as you don't
bow? Of course, that's ridiculous... but it's also the point. Stop being so
obsessed with material and literalism.
If you were a devout Catholic, then you must know that the saints are
alive
in Heaven, and you may ask them to join their prayers with yours, for
all
prayers are heard by God, and only He can answer them.
Can you give me a bible verse that says that we need to pray to those who
died ?
Rev. 6:9-11 describes the saints in Heaven, for example... but we do not
pray TO them, but rather ask them to pray WITH us or FOR us. As I said, only
God can answer prayers, but if we can raise a chorus of praise on Earth, AND
in Heaven... it's just a nice thing, and Traditional.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never.
The Bible itself is part of Tradition, but I suppose that's a different
topic.
H.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 02:25:06 PM |
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<hughbetcha@yessiree.ca> wrote in message
news:hvOdnRLRqrgjayTcRVn-3g@giganews.com...
On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Then what is the difference between the images of angels that the Lord
commanded be made, and the images of angels in any Catholic church? Are
you
suggesting that He makes exceptions to His own commandment at specific
times?
If you bowed down before them, then you commited sin.
It's like you're asking; If God commanded them to make a big post in the
temple, what is the difference of making one today ? Got it ?
No. You're still saying that God made an exception to His own commandment,
which is not possible... or does it say in the Bible that it was okay for
those particular Jews, but it is not alright for anyone else? If that's
how
you interpret it, then I suspect that you are in error, since as we've
already established, God does not change His mind, lie, or contradict
Himself.
You're saying that to escape, do you ?
God never ask them to make images for bowing down or for praying unto them
nor for serving or to pay respect to them; like what you're doing. Never
they bowed down nor prayed to those.
And of course... You can have a picture of your mama... And hang it in you
bed room...
(or you're just trying to deceive yourself ?)
The commandment was given at Sinai, recounted in Exodus... a long time
BEFORE He gave His instructions to create graven images on the Ark and
the
Temple. It sure sounds like you're saying that He changes His mind and
makes
exceptions.
Those graven images on the Ark are not meant to be bowed down nor to be
reminded of God as what you do today. Like a design from nice building.
God NEVER told us to make graven images to bow-down, serve, use as a
reminder, or use to respect... etc.
Tell me, then, what WAS the purpose of those images? If not to reflect the
glory of Heaven, then what?
Again: =>
God NEVER told us to make graven images to bow-down, serve, use as a
reminder, or use to respect... etc.
Show me a verse if that's not true... You can't.
Repeat: bowing is simply a gesture of respect, intended for the person
whom
the image represents. No praying or worshipping going on here.
Did God told you to pay respect to a piece of wood? Give me the verse.
Or you're just simply ADDING some teaching that doesn't come from God.
Honoring the saints is part of the two thousand year old Christian
Tradition
Please give verse that proves God told you to do so, or proves that OT
Christians did it ...
(You can't.)
Protestants have forsaken. Read Mark 12:26-27. As you can see,
He is the God of the living. Those who have gone before us are alive (far
MORE 'alive' than we are) and aware in Heaven. They see us, hear us...
SENSE
us, so we still honor them.
* What are you talking about ??? Making your own instead of following the
Gospel.
Mark:12:26: And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in
the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God
of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark:12:27: He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye
therefore do greatly err.>
I don't know why you quote Mark 12:26-27. Maybe because "He is the God of
the living" ?
The Lord said;
Ex:20:5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I
the
LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon
the
children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
He forbade that 'graven images' not be worshipped as gods themselves,
He did not forbid images that glorify Him or His.
Where in the word did you get that ? And Where did God told you to do that ?
Instead God said, DO NOT BOW DOWN unto them.
Whatever your reason is, Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them.
And don't deny praying unto them...Or kissing those images.. I was there.
I
know.
If 'bow down' means worship, then yes, that's sinful. If it's a gesture of
respect, than it's not sinful. The difference is, what's in your heart.
Consider kissing... it's a gesture of respect as well (ever been to an
Italian wedding?) However, the Lord did not forbid kissing graven images
now, did He? So, is it okay to kiss an image as long as long as you don't
bow? Of course, that's ridiculous... but it's also the point. Stop being
so
obsessed with material and literalism.
You got it !
That's why God commanded us not to Make graven images for bowing down nor
for serving them.
God knows how weak we humans are. See what it did to you?
Just show me a single verse that God commanded you to do that...You really
can't.
If you were a devout Catholic, then you must know that the saints are
alive
in Heaven, and you may ask them to join their prayers with yours, for
all
prayers are heard by God, and only He can answer them.
Can you give me a bible verse that says that we need to pray to those who
died ?
Rev. 6:9-11 describes the saints in Heaven, for example... but we do not
pray TO them, but rather ask them to pray WITH us or FOR us. As I said,
only
God can answer prayers, but if we can raise a chorus of praise on Earth,
AND
in Heaven... it's just a nice thing, and Traditional.
* You do not pray to them, but ask them ..... ??? What do you call that.
Re:6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the
souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony
which they held:
Re:6:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy
and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the
earth?
Re:6:11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said
unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their
fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.
Where did you get the idea that "we can raise a chorus of praise on Earth"
to the saints in heaven ?
Rev 6:9-11 shows only communication of them & God. NOT YOU & THEM.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never.
The Bible itself is part of Tradition, but I suppose that's a different
topic.
What ???
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 08:11:38 PM |
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On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
o. You're still saying that God made an exception to His own commandment,
which is not possible... or does it say in the Bible that it was okay
for
those particular Jews, but it is not alright for anyone else? If that's
how
you interpret it, then I suspect that you are in error, since as we've
already established, God does not change His mind, lie, or contradict
Himself.
You're saying that to escape, do you ?
God never ask them to make images for bowing down or for praying unto them
nor for serving or to pay respect to them; like what you're doing. Never
they bowed down nor prayed to those.
And of course... You can have a picture of your mama... And hang it in you
bed room...
(or you're just trying to deceive yourself ?)
No, not trying to deceive myself, just trying to figure out why God would
command one thing, then turn around and command the opposite. You seem to
think that He wanted the images on the Ark and in the Temple for no
particular purpose whatsoever. Does He do anything without a purpose? That
would make Him frivolous. No, I think that the images were intended to
reflect His glory, and the glory of heaven; which coincidentally is the
intended purpose of images in Catholic churches. I'm sure that the
Isrealites did not strut arrogantly past the Ark, or through the Temple, but
showed due respect in their own way.
God NEVER told us to make graven images to bow-down, serve, use as a
reminder, or use to respect... etc.
Tell me, then, what WAS the purpose of those images? If not to reflect
the
glory of Heaven, then what?
Again: =>
God NEVER told us to make graven images to bow-down, serve, use as a
reminder, or use to respect... etc.
Show me a verse if that's not true... You can't.
But yet, He commands the creation of images, although He does not give
specific instructions on what to do with them. Isn't it reasonable to assume
that it is the worship of these things as false gods that offends Him, and
not the images themselves?
Did God told you to pay respect to a piece of wood? Give me the verse.
Or you're just simply ADDING some teaching that doesn't come from God.
Honoring the saints is part of the two thousand year old Christian
Tradition
Please give verse that proves God told you to do so, or proves that OT
Christians did it ...
(You can't.)
I can.
St. Clement of Alexandria: (c. 208 AD) "In this way is he always pure for
prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic
rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone,
he has the choir of the saints standing with him."
Origen: (c. 233 AD) "But not the high priest (Jesus) alone prays for those
who pray sincerley, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints
who have already fallen asleep (died)"
St. Cyril of Jerusalem: (c. 350 AD) "...we make mention also of those who
have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles and
martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our
petition."
St. Basil the Great: (c. 373 AD) "By the command of your only begotten Son
we communicate with the memory of your saints... by whose prayers and
supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your
holy name."
Just a few quotes to consider. It's important to note that all of these were
written BEFORE the official canonization of the Holy Bible, that's what I
mean by Tradition.
Protestants have forsaken. Read Mark 12:26-27. As you can see,
He is the God of the living. Those who have gone before us are alive
(far
MORE 'alive' than we are) and aware in Heaven. They see us, hear us...
SENSE
us, so we still honor them.
* What are you talking about ??? Making your own instead of following the
Gospel.
Mark:12:26: And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in
the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the
God
of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark:12:27: He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye
therefore do greatly err.>
I was trying to point out that the saints are alive in Heaven, not dead and
gone.
He forbade that 'graven images' not be worshipped as gods themselves,
He did not forbid images that glorify Him or His.
Where in the word did you get that ? And Where did God told you to do that
?
Instead God said, DO NOT BOW DOWN unto them.
'BOW DOWN' is a metaphor for 'WORSHIP' You cannot interpret it literally!
If you do, then you must assume that GROVELING, KOWTOWING, and KISSING are
fine because they are not BOWING! Sheesh!
If 'bow down' means worship, then yes, that's sinful. If it's a gesture
of
respect, than it's not sinful. The difference is, what's in your heart.
Consider kissing... it's a gesture of respect as well (ever been to an
Italian wedding?) However, the Lord did not forbid kissing graven images
now, did He? So, is it okay to kiss an image as long as long as you
don't
bow? Of course, that's ridiculous... but it's also the point. Stop being
so
obsessed with material and literalism.
You got it !
That's why God commanded us not to Make graven images for bowing down nor
for serving them.
God knows how weak we humans are. See what it did to you?
Just show me a single verse that God commanded you to do that...You really
can't.
Okay, this is all going over your head. I'll be blunt. Believe what it
means, not what it says. It means do not worship false gods. If all it means
is literally 'do not bow down', then dancing naked around an oak tree on the
solstice should be fine as long as there is no bowing involved. Are you
grasping this?
Rev. 6:9-11 describes the saints in Heaven, for example... but we do not
pray TO them, but rather ask them to pray WITH us or FOR us. As I said,
only
God can answer prayers, but if we can raise a chorus of praise on Earth,
AND
in Heaven... it's just a nice thing, and Traditional.
* You do not pray to them, but ask them ..... ??? What do you call that.
See the quotes that I provided earlier.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never.
The Bible itself is part of Tradition, but I suppose that's a different
topic.
What ???
The Bible and the Tradition were meant to compliment and confirm one
another, neither is sufficient on it's own. If the Church fathers had known
that the Tradition would be forsaken, and the Revelation of God be
restricted to only the written pages of the Bible, then perhaps they would
have made it 100 times larger in an effort to encapsulate as much knowledge
as possible...
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
We pray to God, the saints in Heaven pray to God.
.
|
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| User: "Streamer" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
10 Dec 2004 09:09:35 PM |
|
|
<hughbetcha@yessiree.ca> wrote in message
news:FLOdnTFqs4_UyifcRVn-ig@giganews.com...
On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
o. You're still saying that God made an exception to His own commandment,
which is not possible... or does it say in the Bible that it was okay
for
those particular Jews, but it is not alright for anyone else? If that's
how
you interpret it, then I suspect that you are in error, since as we've
already established, God does not change His mind, lie, or contradict
Himself.
You're saying that to escape, do you ?
God never ask them to make images for bowing down or for praying unto
them
nor for serving or to pay respect to them; like what you're doing. Never
they bowed down nor prayed to those.
And of course... You can have a picture of your mama... And hang it in
you
bed room...
(or you're just trying to deceive yourself ?)
No, not trying to deceive myself, just trying to figure out why God would
command one thing, then turn around and command the opposite. You seem to
think that He wanted the images on the Ark and in the Temple for no
particular purpose whatsoever. Does He do anything without a purpose? That
would make Him frivolous. No, I think that the images were intended to
reflect His glory, and the glory of heaven; which coincidentally is the
intended purpose of images in Catholic churches. I'm sure that the
Isrealites did not strut arrogantly past the Ark, or through the Temple,
but
showed due respect in their own way.
Were those images intended for bowing down at them, or as our reminder to
God ?
Don't think so. Designs are designs. Make one for the purpose of bowing
down, paying respect, or serving is another. And how many of your graven
images do miracles ???
God is all knowing, that's why He forbids.
God NEVER told us to make graven images to bow-down, serve, use as a
reminder, or use to respect... etc.
Tell me, then, what WAS the purpose of those images? If not to reflect
the
glory of Heaven, then what?
Again: =>
God NEVER told us to make graven images to bow-down, serve, use as a
reminder, or use to respect... etc.
Show me a verse if that's not true... You can't.
But yet, He commands the creation of images, although He does not give
specific instructions on what to do with them. Isn't it reasonable to
assume
that it is the worship of these things as false gods that offends Him, and
not the images themselves?
It's not the images of course. It's what you do to those images (or the
purpose of making one); like bowing down....
And how do you feel to those images when you KNEEL & bow down to them ?
Did God told you to pay respect to a piece of wood? Give me the verse.
Or you're just simply ADDING some teaching that doesn't come from God.
Honoring the saints is part of the two thousand year old Christian
Tradition
Please give verse that proves God told you to do so, or proves that OT
Christians did it ...
(You can't.)
I can.
St. Clement of Alexandria: (c. 208 AD) "In this way is he always pure for
prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of
angelic
rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone,
he has the choir of the saints standing with him."
Angelic rank ???
<snip>
Just a few quotes to consider. It's important to note that all of these
were
written BEFORE the official canonization of the Holy Bible, that's what I
mean by Tradition.
Even before or after you canonation... It's God's who brought them together,
and you think you're right because you think are the only one who ADD most
to the Bible. Those are excluded from the bible... That contradicts a lot of
bible teachings.
Ga:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Ga:1:9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The Apostles not Jesus did not preached that. Don't add. Please don't give
comment outside the Bible.
Protestants have forsaken. Read Mark 12:26-27. As you can see,
He is the God of the living. Those who have gone before us are alive
(far
MORE 'alive' than we are) and aware in Heaven. They see us, hear us...
SENSE
us, so we still honor them.
* What are you talking about ??? Making your own instead of following the
Gospel.
Mark:12:26: And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in
the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the
God
of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark:12:27: He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye
therefore do greatly err.>
I was trying to point out that the saints are alive in Heaven, not dead
and
gone.
And you just simply want to pray to them because you feel like it ?
He forbade that 'graven images' not be worshipped as gods themselves,
He did not forbid images that glorify Him or His.
Where in the word did you get that ? And Where did God told you to do
that
?
Instead God said, DO NOT BOW DOWN unto them.
'BOW DOWN' is a metaphor for 'WORSHIP' You cannot interpret it literally!
If you do, then you must assume that GROVELING, KOWTOWING, and KISSING are
fine because they are not BOWING! Sheesh!
You know by heart what you feel & do to those images. I've been there, born
one.
And still you want to do it even God didn't tell you, or He forbids.
If 'bow down' means worship, then yes, that's sinful. If it's a gesture
of
respect, than it's not sinful. The difference is, what's in your heart.
Consider kissing... it's a gesture of respect as well (ever been to an
Italian wedding?) However, the Lord did not forbid kissing graven
images
now, did He? So, is it okay to kiss an image as long as long as you
don't
bow? Of course, that's ridiculous... but it's also the point. Stop
being
so
obsessed with material and literalism.
You got it !
That's why God commanded us not to Make graven images for bowing down nor
for serving them.
God knows how weak we humans are. See what it did to you?
Just show me a single verse that God commanded you to do that...You
really
can't.
Okay, this is all going over your head. I'll be blunt. Believe what it
means, not what it says. It means do not worship false gods. If all it
means
is literally 'do not bow down', then dancing naked around an oak tree on
the
solstice should be fine as long as there is no bowing involved. Are you
grasping this?
And you're denying what you do is against God's will.
Did any Christians in the NT times did what you're doing now ? Show verse to
prove.
Rev. 6:9-11 describes the saints in Heaven, for example... but we do not
pray TO them, but rather ask them to pray WITH us or FOR us. As I said,
only
God can answer prayers, but if we can raise a chorus of praise on
Earth,
AND
in Heaven... it's just a nice thing, and Traditional.
* You do not pray to them, but ask them ..... ??? What do you call that.
See the quotes that I provided earlier.
Are you sure you did not pray to them, but simply ask ?
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never.
The Bible itself is part of Tradition, but I suppose that's a different
topic.
What ???
The Bible and the Tradition were meant to compliment and confirm one
another, neither is sufficient on it's own. If the Church fathers had
known
that the Tradition would be forsaken, and the Revelation of God be
restricted to only the written pages of the Bible, then perhaps they would
have made it 100 times larger in an effort to encapsulate as much
knowledge
as possible...
Everything that we must follow as Christians is in the Bible. That's why you
can use it for correction.
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
We pray to God, the saints in Heaven pray to God.
And you pray to the saints in heaven ?
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
11 Dec 2004 12:43:59 AM |
|
|
On 10-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
No, not trying to deceive myself, just trying to figure out why God would
command one thing, then turn around and command the opposite. You seem
to
think that He wanted the images on the Ark and in the Temple for no
particular purpose whatsoever. Does He do anything without a purpose?
That
would make Him frivolous. No, I think that the images were intended to
reflect His glory, and the glory of heaven; which coincidentally is the
intended purpose of images in Catholic churches. I'm sure that the
Isrealites did not strut arrogantly past the Ark, or through the Temple,
but
showed due respect in their own way.
Were those images intended for bowing down at them, or as our reminder to
God ?
Yes, that's the point. 'Reflect the glory of heaven' as I said, and, you
cannot reasonably say that the Israelites did not pay due respect.
Don't think so. Designs are designs. Make one for the purpose of bowing
down, paying respect, or serving is another. And how many of your graven
images do miracles ???
Images, statues, medals have no power of any kind, that is for God only.
However, as a reminder, a focus, or an aid to one's devotions to God, they
can be invaluable.
God is all knowing, that's why He forbids.
I don't doubt His judgement, but neither do I want to misunderstand it.
But yet, He commands the creation of images, although He does not give
specific instructions on what to do with them. Isn't it reasonable to
assume
that it is the worship of these things as false gods that offends Him,
and
not the images themselves?
It's not the images of course. It's what you do to those images
I think that you're beginning to see my point.
Now I just have to help you figure out the difference between veneration and
adoration, respect and worship.
(or the
purpose of making one); like bowing down....
And how do you feel to those images when you KNEEL & bow down to them ?
One would only kneel to pray to God, or to genuflect before His Presence. If
I make a gesture of respect (including a bow) to Our Lady, or to a saint, I
marvel at their accomplishments, their example, and their sacrifice, and
hope that I can be more like them, as per St. Paul: "Be imitators of me, as
I am of Christ.", and, "...they were glorifying God because of me."
Just a few quotes to consider. It's important to note that all of these
were
written BEFORE the official canonization of the Holy Bible, that's what
I
mean by Tradition.
Even before or after you canonation... It's God's who brought them
together,
and you think you're right because you think are the only one who ADD most
to the Bible. Those are excluded from the bible... That contradicts a lot
of
bible teachings.
Now how did God bring the Bible together? Through the Church fathers. And,
how do you know that your Bible is the genuine inspired Word of God? because
of the authority He gave them. (Matt. 16:18-19 for example) That is why I
place great credence on what they said and believed.
Ga:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel
unto
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Ga:1:9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Wise words I'd say.
I was trying to point out that the saints are alive in Heaven, not dead
and
gone.
And you just simply want to pray to them because you feel like it ?
Well, nothing says I HAVE too, but I may if I wish.
'BOW DOWN' is a metaphor for 'WORSHIP' You cannot interpret it
literally!
If you do, then you must assume that GROVELING, KOWTOWING, and KISSING
are
fine because they are not BOWING! Sheesh!
You know by heart what you feel & do to those images. I've been there,
born
one.
And still you want to do it even God didn't tell you, or He forbids.
Okay, that's right, I know what's in my heart when I pay respect to the
saints, and it's not worship. Their deeds and words are part of God's
revelation to us. The mere physical act of bowing to them does not offend
God, and if any Catholic ever offered them worship, I'd be the first to
correct him (as per Matt. 18:15-17)
Okay, this is all going over your head. I'll be blunt. Believe what it
means, not what it says. It means do not worship false gods. If all it
means
is literally 'do not bow down', then dancing naked around an oak tree on
the
solstice should be fine as long as there is no bowing involved. Are you
grasping this?
And you're denying what you do is against God's will.
Yes, I don't think it is.
Did any Christians in the NT times did what you're doing now ? Show verse
to
prove.
I did. Go back and read them please.
The Bible and the Tradition were meant to compliment and confirm one
another, neither is sufficient on it's own. If the Church fathers had
known
that the Tradition would be forsaken, and the Revelation of God be
restricted to only the written pages of the Bible, then perhaps they
would
have made it 100 times larger in an effort to encapsulate as much
knowledge
as possible...
Everything that we must follow as Christians is in the Bible. That's why
you
can use it for correction.
St. Paul says: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for
teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness."
Notice that he says: 'profitable' (some translations say merely 'useful')
and not 'soley sufficient' Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. It is the
cornerstone of the faith, but must be used in conjunction with the rest of
His revelation to acheive it's full purpose.
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
We pray to God, the saints in Heaven pray to God.
And you pray to the saints in heaven ?
God bestows honor and glory on them, why can't we?
.
|
|
|
|
|
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| User: "Doc Watson -- the \Usenet GHOST!\ :O" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
11 Dec 2004 09:49:32 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:25:06 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
AMEN, Streamer.
--
The official Usenet GHOST....
haunting romanists EVERYWHERE!
BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA! BOO!
And don't forget -- keep your eyes open for
THE IDES OF JOHNNIE !!
:O)
.
|
|
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| User: "Jerry Patterson" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
25 Dec 2004 02:40:17 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:49:32 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:25:06 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
AMEN, Streamer.
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
.. . .
Blessings,
Jerry
http://www.dslextreme.com/users/jerry53/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Streamer" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
25 Dec 2004 07:38:44 PM |
|
|
"Jerry Patterson" <jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:7tjrs0hnjd6ur9fsp0e5aqajltd11b2gj5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:49:32 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:25:06 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
AMEN, Streamer.
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
Your Church teaches you. Not the Bible.
You know all believers of Christ are called saints.
They can pray and talk to god, but we don't pray to those dead persons.
Can you show me a single verse in the Bible that they prayed to the dead, or
they commanded us to do so?
.
|
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|
| User: "Doc Watson -- the \Usenet GHOST!\ :O" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
26 Dec 2004 12:46:59 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 20:38:44 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
Your Church teaches you. Not the Bible.
You know all believers of Christ are called saints.
They can pray and talk to god, but we don't pray to those dead
persons.
Can you show me a single verse in the Bible that they prayed to the
dead, or
they commanded us to do so?
He can't.
There are no such verses, Streamer.
:o)
--
The official Usenet GHOST....BOO!
.
|
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| User: "Jerry Patterson" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
29 Dec 2004 12:08:29 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 20:38:44 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Jerry Patterson" <jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:7tjrs0hnjd6ur9fsp0e5aqajltd11b2gj5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:49:32 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:25:06 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
AMEN, Streamer.
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
Your Church teaches you. Not the Bible.
You know all believers of Christ are called saints.
They can pray and talk to god, but we don't pray to those dead persons.
Can you show me a single verse in the Bible that they prayed to the dead, or
they commanded us to do so?
JP
In a very specialized sense, you are correct. Yes, in Maccabees
(2Maccabees 12:39-45. Also, see Matt 5:25-26
Where, pray tell, do you think the Bible came from?
.. . .
Blessings,
Jerry
http://www.dslextreme.com/users/jerry53/
.
|
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|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
29 Dec 2004 09:21:22 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:08:29 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> done went and wrote as Gospel Truth in these
here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
Maccabees
(2Maccabees 12:39-45.
^^^^^^^^totally un-inspired writing, and NOT a part of the REAL BIBLE.
Also, see Matt 5:25-26
Too chicken to POST the actual verse?
How come?
Matt 5:25-26
25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to
court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand
you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer,
and you may be thrown into prison.
26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the
last penny.
NIV
Now----- WHAT does the above have to do AT ALL with your lies about
the 'appropriateness of praying to dead people'?????
your behavior is that of a typical romanist who loves to TRY passing
off Scripture by posting only a name and number -- too COWARDLY to
post the real verse, because you know fully well YOU'RE LYING.
Matthew 5:25-26 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your false claim.
Where, pray tell, do you think the Bible came from?
FROM GOD, the REAL HOLY FATHER.
Now toodle off back to your little romanist playpen.
-------------------------------------------------------
JESUS IS THE ROCK
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called
-------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Virginia Vulva" |
|
| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
29 Dec 2004 11:08:13 PM |
|
|
wrote:
:On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:08:29 -0800, Jerry Patterson
:<jerry@dslextreme.com> done went and wrote as Gospel Truth in these
:here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
:
:>Maccabees
:>(2Maccabees 12:39-45.
:
:^^^^^^^^totally un-inspired writing, and NOT a part of the REAL BIBLE.
You only think that because you and your heretical buddies satanically ripped it out of the Bible because you hated it so much. You should start reading intact and complete Bibles.
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| User: "Jerry Patterson" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
03 Jan 2005 09:27:37 PM |
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:21:22 -0500, wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:08:29 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> done went and wrote as Gospel Truth in these
here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
Maccabees
(2Maccabees 12:39-45.
^^^^^^^^totally un-inspired writing, and NOT a part of the REAL BIBLE.
Also, see Matt 5:25-26
Too chicken to POST the actual verse?
How come?
Matt 5:25-26
25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to
court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand
you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer,
and you may be thrown into prison.
26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the
last penny.
NIV
JP
Just who do you think is the adversary? Do you think the Bible is a
work of secular rectitude?
Get out of where? An earthly jail?????
Now----- WHAT does the above have to do AT ALL with your lies about
the 'appropriateness of praying to dead people'?????
JP
Now I understand why you are unable to comprehend those verses of
Scripture. The reason is that your emotions have displaced your
intellect here.
your behavior is that of a typical romanist who loves to TRY passing
off Scripture by posting only a name and number -- too COWARDLY to
post the real verse, because you know fully well YOU'RE LYING.
JP
Since it seems you have depleted your supply of valium, and your
vocabulary has become mired in vulgarity, I will no longer discuss
anything with you on this thread. I wish you peace soon.
.. . .
Blessings,
Jerry
http://www.dslextreme.com/users/jerry53/
Matthew 5:25-26 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your false claim.
Where, pray tell, do you think the Bible came from?
FROM GOD, the REAL HOLY FATHER.
Now toodle off back to your little romanist playpen.
-------------------------------------------------------
JESUS IS THE ROCK
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called
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| User: "Doc Watson -- the \Usenet GHOST!\ :O" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
26 Dec 2004 12:46:15 PM |
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On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:40:17 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> spoke the following words of wisdom:
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .
LIVING SAINTS, yes, as ALL Christians are.
Those who have passed on cannot hear your prayers, nor can they
intervene. They are not qualified to receive prayer or act on same.
--
The official Usenet GHOST....BOO!
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| User: "Jerry Patterson" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
29 Dec 2004 12:08:30 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:46:15 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:40:17 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> spoke the following words of wisdom:
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .
LIVING SAINTS, yes, as ALL Christians are.
Those who have passed on cannot hear your prayers, nor can they
intervene. They are not qualified to receive prayer or act on same.
JP
Correct. God hears and answers prayers. That is why we enlist the aid
of Saints, who are in God's presence, to use their relationship with
Him to help us.
Why do you assert that heavenly souls cannot hear our prayers?
How do you think the Bible came to be?
.. . .
Blessings,
Jerry
http://www.dslextreme.com/users/jerry53/
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
29 Dec 2004 09:21:27 PM |
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:08:30 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> done went and wrote as Gospel Truth in these
here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:46:15 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:40:17 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> spoke the following words of wisdom:
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .
LIVING SAINTS, yes, as ALL Christians are.
Those who have passed on cannot hear your prayers, nor can they
intervene. They are not qualified to receive prayer or act on same.
JP
Correct. God hears and answers prayers.
Oh my- I am so enthralled that you approve of what I said....... :o/
That is why we enlist the aid
of Saints, who are in God's presence, to use their relationship with
Him to help us.
Why do you assert that heavenly souls cannot hear our prayers?
I 'assert' nothing but I TELL THE TRUTH.
Eccl 9:10
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in
the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning
nor knowledge nor wisdom.
NIV
Luke 16:26
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been
fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can
anyone cross over from there to us.'
NIV
Now kindly give this sick, weak argument up. Your other little
romanist friends already LOST this argument long ago.
How do you think the Bible came to be?
You were already told. Why don't you listen once in awhile?
-------------------------------------------------------
JESUS IS THE ROCK
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called
-------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Virginia Vulva" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
29 Dec 2004 11:10:44 PM |
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wrote:
:I 'assert' nothing but I TELL THE TRUTH.
And that's a lie!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
26 Dec 2004 06:20:37 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:46:15 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:40:17 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> spoke the following words of wisdom:
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .
LIVING SAINTS, yes, as ALL Christians are.
Those who have passed on cannot hear your prayers, nor can they
intervene. They are not qualified to receive prayer or act on same.
agree with this statement by Elaine. Because if they could hear our
prayers, that would make them omnipresent, in other words on the same
level as God Himself.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
27 Dec 2004 07:15:27 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:20:37 -0500, sez the
following funny stuff:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:46:15 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
Those who have passed on cannot hear your prayers, nor can they
intervene. They are not qualified to receive prayer or act on same.
agree with this statement by Elaine. Because if they could hear our
prayers, that would make them omnipresent, in other words on the same
level as God Himself.
Thanks- nice to see we at least agree on something.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
13 Jan 2005 07:23:16 PM |
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On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:40:17 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:49:32 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:25:06 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
AMEN, Streamer.
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .
That is a bunch of garbage made up centuries AFTER Jesus created His
church by a bunch of heretics. There is NOT ONE INSTANCE IN THE FIRST
CENTURY CHURCH OF EVEN ONE PERSON PRAYING TO A DEAD PERSON for
anything at all.
Sorry Jerry, but your religion has lied to you.
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| User: "icono" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
13 Jan 2005 10:07:21 PM |
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<christian@velocitus.net> wrote in message
news:9i7eu055b64io0l2vasucirfmphjsjuah8@4ax.com...
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:40:17 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:49:32 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:25:06 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
AMEN, Streamer.
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .
That is a bunch of garbage made up centuries AFTER Jesus created His
church by a bunch of heretics. There is NOT ONE INSTANCE IN THE FIRST
CENTURY CHURCH OF EVEN ONE PERSON PRAYING TO A DEAD PERSON for
anything at all.
Sorry Jerry, but your religion has lied to you.
Jesus said to pray to the Father. That's it.
We aren't even given any indication to pray to Jesus except for the concept
that He is.
Catholicism (RCC) is by no means or stretch of any imagination a Christian
religion. It isn't the original Christian religion and wasn't formed for
any other reason than a political ploy. Its members are flat out, lost. If
they, individually, eventually see the light ( a function of God), they no
longer will tolerate the heresy.
Conversing with them is useless unless one sees a glimmer of the Holy Spirit
in the recipient.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
16 Jan 2005 05:06:29 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:07:21 -0700, "icono" <icono@cox.net> wrote:
<christian@velocitus.net> wrote in message
news:9i7eu055b64io0l2vasucirfmphjsjuah8@4ax.com...
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:40:17 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:49:32 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:25:06 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
AMEN, Streamer.
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .
That is a bunch of garbage made up centuries AFTER Jesus created His
church by a bunch of heretics. There is NOT ONE INSTANCE IN THE FIRST
CENTURY CHURCH OF EVEN ONE PERSON PRAYING TO A DEAD PERSON for
anything at all.
Sorry Jerry, but your religion has lied to you.
Jesus said to pray to the Father. That's it.
Not quite. He also gave us an example of how (we often refer to it as
"The Lord's Prayer."
We aren't even given any indication to pray to Jesus except for the concept
that He is.
The Bible does however show SEVERALl instances of people worshipping
and praying to Jesus, and He never rebukes even one of them.
Catholicism (RCC) is by no means or stretch of any imagination a Christian
religion. It isn't the original Christian religion and wasn't formed for
any other reason than a political ploy.
Agreed.
Its members are flat out, lost.
Most are. Not all. Some are members because of spousal
responsibilities, etc, but are actually Christians\
If they, individually, eventually see the light ( a function of God), they no
longer will tolerate the heresy.
I know of at least one woman who stays for her husband's sake, hoping
to lead him to the truth. She worships during the week elsewhere.
Conversing with them is useless unless one sees a glimmer of the Holy Spirit
in the recipient.
Promoting the Word of God is NEVER useless.
in Christ Jesus,
Christian (an ex rcc member who found the Truth)
.
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| User: "icono" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
16 Jan 2005 10:46:58 PM |
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<christian@velocitus.net> wrote in message
news:9jslu05462u4od89n4el6nki5c377pgneb@4ax.com...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:07:21 -0700, "icono" <icono@cox.net> wrote:
<christian@velocitus.net> wrote in message
news:9i7eu055b64io0l2vasucirfmphjsjuah8@4ax.com...
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:40:17 -0800, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:49:32 -0500, "Doc Watson -- the \"Usenet
GHOST!\" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:25:06 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
spoke the following words of wisdom:
----------
*Let me ask your comment on this... You just ignore.
Jesus told us to pray to God alone. Never I saw in the Bible one that
prays
to another (dead) person. Never..
Ignore again ?
AMEN, Streamer.
JP
The Church teaches that we pray to Saints to enlist their reinforcing
prayers to God. Saints are venerated, not worshiped. Saints can do
nothing on their own for us except to pray for us.
. . .
That is a bunch of garbage made up centuries AFTER Jesus created His
church by a bunch of heretics. There is NOT ONE INSTANCE IN THE FIRST
CENTURY CHURCH OF EVEN ONE PERSON PRAYING TO A DEAD PERSON for
anything at all.
Sorry Jerry, but your religion has lied to you.
Jesus said to pray to the Father. That's it.
Not quite. He also gave us an example of how (we often refer to it as
"The Lord's Prayer."
The example was "Our Father"
We aren't even given any indication to pray to Jesus except for the
concept
that He is.
The Bible does however show SEVERALl instances of people worshipping
and praying to Jesus, and He never rebukes even one of them.
Not one for or to Jesus after the resurection.
Catholicism (RCC) is by no means or stretch of any imagination a Christian
religion. It isn't the original Christian religion and wasn't formed for
any other reason than a political ploy.
Agreed.
Its members are flat out, lost.
Most are. Not all. Some are members because of spousal
responsibilities, etc, but are actually Christians\
Praying to and honoring idols or other gods is NEVER Christian. They may be
very nice people as are most Mormons and many Muslims, but they are "LOST"
If they, individually, eventually see the light ( a function of God),
they no
longer will tolerate the heresy.
I know of at least one woman who stays for her husband's sake, hoping
to lead him to the truth. She worships during the week elsewhere.
She is attending, not an RCC believer.
Conversing with them is useless unless one sees a glimmer of the Holy
Spirit
in the recipient.
Promoting the Word of God is NEVER useless.
The bible says there is a point to drop it and get on.
in Christ Jesus,
Christian (an ex rcc member who found the Truth)
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Graven images, shall I fall down ? |
25 Jan 2005 05:08:59 PM |
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On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:46:58 -0700, "icono" <icono@cox.net> wrote:
<christian@velocitus.net> wrote in message
news:9jslu05462u4od89n4el6nki5c377pgneb@4ax.com...
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