| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Carl" |
| Date: |
19 Dec 2007 12:52:31 AM |
| Object: |
Guidelines For Controversies |
As many of you know, I no longer willingly engage into arguments, debate or
discussions with people on Usenet who are obvious heretics,
Christian-haters, radical atheists and the like for they are nothing but
vain arguments. I hold to Titus 3:9-11 as instruction to void such people
and their vain attempts to lure me into their foolish arguments. There are
other passages in the Bible that also warn Christians similarly. It has
taken me longer than it should but I finally realized that the temptation is
just too great to respond to their provocations directly so rather than do
so, I would rather share sermons, lessons and articles from Christians in
hopes they may inspire, edifiy, enlighten and help spread the Gospel as
well. They are mostly intended for the Christian reader but I pray and hope
that maybe one or more of these posts may awaken the heart of someone who
isn't sure about God and Christianity and maybe even soften the heart of the
heart-hardened atheist & agnostic.
Anyway, concerning how we are to conduct ourselves as Christians in light of
controversies and what controversies are even worth addressing is addressed
in of itself in the following sermon from Ray Stedman. I hope you might
learn something from it.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
GUIDELINES FOR CONTROVERSIES
by Ray C. Stedman
When the Apostle Paul wrote his second letter to Timothy from his dungeon in
Rome, he realized that Timothy was living in a world that was about to
explode in conflict -- a world that was very much like the one we live in
today. Timothy had another problem too: he was teaching a church which was
threatening to split apart and divide into factions over arguments and
divisions which were separating believers. So, in this letter, the apostle
tells how to handle both of these problems -- how to live in a world that is
threatened with conflict, and how to live in a church that is threatened
with controversy.
In the section which we have before us today the apostle is dealing with the
matter of controversies, church fights, incipient splits, times when the
congregation is divided over some issue. Paul here tells us what kind of
controversies should and should not be allowed, and how Christians should
conduct themselves in the midst of them. Paul puts it very plainly. Second
Timothy 2:23:
Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they
breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to
every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with
gentleness. {2 Tim 2:23-25a RSV}
Some have read that passage as though it said, "Never get involved with any
kind of controversy. Don't ever take up sides or press any issue to the
point that it creates argument. Stay away from it." But that is not what it
says at all. In fact, if you read it that way it often results in what many
churches do today, which is to take issues that need to be debated and sweep
them under the rug. They cover them over and pretend they do not exist; they
try to maintain a facade of outward peace, while division and dissent seethe
and ferment underneath until it explodes in the breakup of a congregation.
That is not what the apostle is saying at all. In fact, in other places he
has said very clearly that there must be controversies in churches. Look at
First Corinthians 11:19: "There must indeed be controversies [heresies is
the word] among you in order that those who are approved might be made
manifest," {1 Cor 11:19 KJV}. In other words, how are you going to tell who
is mature enough to handle a controversial matter unless you have a
controversy to work on? So there must be heresies, differences of viewpoint,
among you, Paul says.
We can be very grateful indeed to the great controversies of the past in the
church which have served to clarify truth. The great Lutheran hymn, "A
Mighty Fortress Is Our God," resulted from the controversy that raged around
Martin Luther over the doctrine of justification by faith. The church has
never forgotten that controversy which cleared the air on what was a very
important doctrinal matter.
But what the apostle is saying to Timothy is that there are certain kinds of
controversies he must never get involved in. "Have nothing to do with them,"
Paul says. There are two kinds particularly -- stupid controversies, and
senseless controversies.
The word that is translated "stupid" here is the word moros, from which we
get our word, moron. Paul is talking about moronic controversies, foolish,
trivial matters which, even when they are settled after long and loud
debate, do nothing for you; they do not advance the Christian cause in the
least degree. Such trivial matters may be interesting in some limited way,
but they should never be allowed to become controversies and have people
divide over them. In the Middle Ages we know that the scholars of the church
debated at great length issues like how many angels can stand on the head of
a pin. That is a foolish question. Angels are spirits, and as such do not
occupy space. The head of a pin is the same as the top of a mountain to
angels.
But we have our own ridiculous questions today. I have heard people debate
heatedly and at great length what prominent world figure in this day has a
name which can be reduced numerically to the numbers 666. One can buy a lot
of books today -- very inexpensively -- suggesting names that have been
advanced in the past of people who are no longer with us. The last person I
saw mentioned in this regard was Anwar Sadat. He, however, was assassinated
a few weeks later so he has been removed from the running on that.
Take a question such as I have heard hotly debated, "Was Jesus crucified on
Wednesday, Thursday or Friday?" That question does have some degree of
historical interest -- there is evidence for a day other than the
traditional Friday -- so perhaps that issue merits an hour or so of
discussion or study. But what difference does it make even if it is settled?
To divide up and separate from other believers because of that is
ridiculous, yet there are people who do that.
Another example is the debate going on today about whether the Shroud of
Turin is the burial robe of Jesus or not. Again, this is an interesting
question. It has some significance and it merits some discussion. I have
read most of the articles I have run across on it. But it does not merit
controversy or argument or heated debate, because even if it proves to be
the genuine burial robe of Jesus, how has that advanced us? How are we
profited by that? The most it can be is a slight additional evidence of the
historicity of the Biblical story, yet for centuries that has been well
established so it does not help us much. You can probably think of a dozen
more debates on trivial matters like this that get nowhere. Those are what
Paul calls foolish, moronic debates. Have nothing to do with them.
Then the second word is translated "senseless." This word really means
unlearned, arising out of ignorance. As such it refers to questions that are
basically insoluble; we do not know enough to answer the questions that are
being asked. Take, for example, the mode of baptism in the early church.
Many people have angrily debated that. They are sure they are right and can
prove that the early Christians immersed people. But another crowd says,
"No, they sprinkled them," or "poured water over them." That has been hotly
debated, even to the point of trying to determine whether they put them face
down forward, or three times backward, whatever.
I am of the persuasion that you cannot prove from the Greek text of the New
Testament what was the mode of baptism employed, although you can do so from
various versions because they are translated with a bias. But when you get
back to the original language there is no way of knowing. I think that is
deliberate, because it is not important. We put too much stress on symbols
and on carrying through a certain ritual, meanwhile forgetting the great
reality behind it which God wants us to know. So debating over that is a
futile thing.
I remember when I first came to Palo Alto there were a number of Christians
in this country, especially in this area, who were very hotly debating the
question, "Could Jesus have sinned? When Jesus became a man, did he so much
become a man that, like us, he was not only tempted but he could have
sinned?" Almost every Christian agrees with the Biblical statement that
Jesus did not sin. He himself challenged the Pharisees of his day, saying to
them, "Who of you convinces me of sin?" {cf, John 8:46a KJV}. But the
question that was raised was, "Could he have?" That is a hypothetical
matter. We do not know enough, Scripture does not tell us enough to answer
that. We can speculate all we want to, but that does not give us answers. To
debate over that, to argue over it, to get angry about it and call people
heretics over a matter like that is absolutely foolish. That is what the
apostle calls a "senseless" debate.
The question of the reconciliation of the free will of man and the
sovereignty of God -- though that is a subject that merits a great deal of
discussion and deep, theological thinking -- nevertheless, ultimately falls
in that category. We do not have enough information to settle it. We can
believe both are true, but we cannot finally decide once and for all.
This whole matter of whether the gift of tongues is for today or not also
falls into this category. This is a debate that cannot ultimately be
settled, it seems, because it is always with us. Just last week I met with a
group of people from this church who debated this question all evening. Some
were pro, some were con, but the discussion was kept at a very high level.
It never degenerated to putting people down, calling them heretics or wiping
them out. It was a beautiful evening spent in a very profitable discussion
that clarified the issues in many ways, though it did not convince some.
That is proper. There is nothing wrong with that. There must indeed be
differences of viewpoint among us and they are proper to debate, but to get
angry and upset and divide is what is wrong. That is what Paul is talking
about here. So we can put it in a nutshell: discussion, yes; controversy,
no. Stupid, senseless controversies breed quarrels, Paul says. When you
start pushing your viewpoint to the degree that you wipe out others, when
you put people down and treat them with something less than respect, you
breed quarrels and divisions in the body of Christ.
What about proper controversies then, the kind we should discuss? What about
attacks on vital doctrines, questions on the proper Christian response to
the burning social issues of our day? How should we handle such important
issues that people feel so strongly about they feel they cannot surrender
lest they give up something vital and important? The apostle has some very
clear guidelines for us. He gives us five things, one negative and four
positives.
The first one is the negative: "The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome."
The servant of the Lord is any Christian, but especially Christian leaders
like Timothy. The Lord's servant must not be an argumentative, pejorative,
belligerent type of person who is ready to come out with guns blazing. There
are many people like that who shoot from the lip, always ready for an
argument. But the Lord's servant is not out to win arguments; he is not out
to squash the opposition or silence dissent by overbearing, heavy-handed
approaches. Rather, he is there to encourage discussion and examination. He
does not put down opponents or resort to name-calling or diatribe. He is not
argumentative, not contentious.
Charles Spurgeon spoke about those in his day who, he said, "...went about
with theological revolvers in their ecclesiastical trousers." The Lord's
servant does not do that. What then is the Lord's servant to be?
First, he is to be "kindly to every one." No matter if it is a cultist he is
debating, or someone who is very upset about an issue, somebody with an ax
to grind, some difficult person who is obviously out to cause trouble and
create dissension, the Lord's servant is to be kindly to everyone, the
apostle says. Actually, that phrase is translated from one single word in
the Greek which appears only in this place in the New Testament. It is a
word which means "gentle." A better English translation, perhaps, would be,
approachable. He is someone who is approachable.
When I was at Dallas Seminary, I had a Bible teacher there who was a godly,
gifted man. I had great respect for his Bible knowledge, but when I went to
see him once to ask him a Bible question, he was so cold, stern, and harsh
with me that I never asked him another question. I listened to him teach,
but I never went to him again. That is the opposite of being approachable,
open to discussion with anyone.
Second, the Lord's servant is to be "an apt teacher," i.e., skillfully
dealing with the facts involved, not with feelings, not with fantasies, but
with the facts of Scripture. There is where we must always return. It is so
easy for an argument to slide off the facts and onto feelings, experiences,
and reactions to things. The Lord's servant must call people back to facts.
Paul Winslow and I were discussing a matter at a staff meeting the other
day. I brought up something that he took issue to, very kindly and gently,
but he brought out some facts. I said to him, "You know the trouble with
you, Paul, is that you don't know how to argue. You just deal with facts,
but you can't get a good argument going with facts!" We laughed about that,
but that is the point -- the servant of the Lord must be an apt teacher.
Then third, he must be "forbearing." That is a great word. It means he must
keep his cool, be unruffled and not respond in kind to what people are
handing him. That is not easy to do. When somebody attacks me personally in
a debate, I want to attack back. I want to start with his remote ancestry
and point out to him what is wrong with that, then bring it right down to
the present, and show him how fouled up he is, and, furthermore, how much
worse he is going to get as he proceeds into the future!
But that is not what a servant of the Lord is to do. He is to recognize that
when he is reviled, if he reviles in return, he has departed from the
example of his Lord, who, "When he was reviled, he did not revile in return;
.... but he trusted to him who judges justly," (1 Pet 2:23 {RSV}).
What that is saying is you cannot keep your cool by merely deciding not to
get angry. Will power alone will not handle this kind of pressure. I have
tried it. I have determined not to get upset in a certain controversy and
found that as the pressure mounted and I was attacked personally I could not
keep my promise to myself and I would strike back. No, it is not will power
alone, it is dependence on Divine aid. It is an inward reliance on God, a
calling on God to help you at that point, to recognize your weakness and
help you to stand and not respond in kind. That is what forbearance refers
to.
The fourth thing the apostle says sums up in a kind of a harmony of action
all of the above. He says, "correcting his opponents with gentleness." Here
the word gentleness is really the word meek. And meekness is not weakness.
We often think of it that way -- a kind of a chinless, Casper Milquetoast
type of response where one remains meek and quiet. That is not the idea.
Meekness in Scripture is selflessness. Meekness is not letting yourself get
involved; it is not taking things personally, in other words.
The King James Version has a very good translation here. It says,
instructing "those who oppose themselves." That shows what error does to us.
When we get stubborn, when we are sure we are right, when we insist on our
own point of view, and get personal, etc., what we are doing is opposing
ourselves. We stand in our own way, we become our own worst enemy, and we
create our own problems. That is the revelation of this. Until we change
ourselves, we will never solve the controversy. The thing we all know, but
so easily forget, is that the only person we can change in a controversy is
ourselves. You cannot change other people. You can force their behavior to
be different, but you do not change them inside.
We all know about the little boy whose mother tried to get him to sit down
and forced him to do so, but he said, "I may be sitting down outside, but
I'm standing up inside." "A man convinced against his will is of the same
opinion still." And a woman -- well, she is almost as bad as a man. No, you
only can change yourself. We do not think we are contributing anything to
the problem, but we always are. When an argument exists, and especially when
it gets heated, angry, and personal, then we are definitely contributing to
it and we are opposing ourselves; we are standing in our own way to the
blessing God wants to bring.
If you are dealing with that, it requires what Paul here calls correcting.
That is a word that means "child-training" -- you deal with it like a child.
We have three young grandsons living with us now. Two of them have bikes
which they leave right in front of the steps to the house. I have tried to
tell them that is not the place to leave them because some of us older and
slower people fall over them. It occurred to me the other day, after the
umpteenth time that the bikes had been left there, that I had never told
them where to put them. I had only said, "Don't leave them there." So I took
one of my grandsons and showed him where to put the bike, telling him it was
just as easy to put it there, it will not get in anybody's way, everybody
will be happy with you, etc. He looked up at me and smiled. I could see that
it meant a lot to him just to have me take the time to show him another way
to handle the problem. That is the word that is employed here: "Instructing
those who oppose themselves." Paul is talking about training them and
showing them another way to handle the problem.
That brings us to the last and, in many ways, the most important thing of
all. Paul concludes with these words:
God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and
they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to
do his will. {2 Tim 2:25b-26 RSV}
In dealing with controversy, the one thing the servant of the Lord must
remember is the Divine possibilities that are always present. He must
understand that, if he conducts himself as Paul has outlined here, there is
a very real possibility that it will trigger a Divine process of three
steps:
The first step is, God will grant the person repentance. It is very
remarkable that repentance is not something the person concerned does, it is
something God enables him to do. Repentance does not mean to feel sorry; it
means to change your attitude, change your heart, take a different view, a
different stance on the matter. That is a gift of God. We do not run our
lives. Nobody does. We think we do, but we are always either being
influenced by the devil and his angels -- master psychologists that they
are, able to twist our thinking and influence us in ways we are not aware --
or we are being led and influenced by the Spirit of God who is enabling us
to do things that we could not otherwise do. So what we can do is remember
that God may grant them repentance.
The words may perhaps mean God sometimes has purposes in mind that we do not
know. All we are seeing is the immediate struggle, the immediate problem,
and we would love to see it resolved. We think that that is the main purpose
God has in mind as well, but not always. He is, of course, concerned about
peace. He is the great Mediator. The Lord Jesus is the One who brings peace,
who breaks down middle walls of partition that separate people. But
sometimes he is accomplishing something else besides, and he delays the
repentance, or he is working out another purpose that we cannot see. So we
cannot always count on the fact that our efforts at ending controversy are
going to succeed. It may be that God will not grant repentance for his own
reasons.
But if he does, then the second step is clear: "They come to know the
truth," Paul says. The way you can tell that repentance has been granted is
that they agree with the Scripture. They accept it, they know it to be true,
and though it may involve painful adjustments on their part, they are
committed to it, they follow it.
The third step is, "and they may escape the snare of the devil." The devil's
traps are always designed to destroy, to wreck, to ruin, to hurt, to harm,
to leave people shells, full of meaningless actions that go nowhere; to take
away joy and peace and love and delight. The devil does this by trapping
people in ways that confuse and deceive them.
I had a very vivid example of a situation like that just this week. A young
man drove five and a half hours to see me in order to talk with me about a
marital problem. He and his wife are Christians, and have been married for a
dozen years, but of late he had fallen in love with another woman -- a
familiar story in our time. He told me that he had never really felt any
sense of affection for his wife, but this woman met his needs, she turned
him on, and made him feel fulfilled and satisfied. Yet his conscience
bothered him because he knew it was not right. He was being terribly
tormented. His business was failing, his own life was rendered miserable; he
could not sleep as he was torn by these conflicting desires which he vividly
explained to me. He said he had had a dream that the Lord had come and put
his hand of blessing upon this union with the other woman, and said that it
was the right way to go.
The man had come to me hoping that I would help resolve the conflict, and
help him find a way by which he could rightly divorce his wife and marry the
other woman. I did not condemn him. I understand those feelings. I did not
put him down or in any way ridicule him or make him feel like he was a
pariah. I explained to him what was happening. I pointed out, as gently as I
could, that no matter how delightful that other experience was, no matter
how much it seemed he was being fulfilled in a way he had never been before,
how it appeared to offer hope for enjoyment and blessing in his life that
his marriage never had, despite all that, as God looked at the situation it
fell under the description of a very ugly word. I did not even have to tell
him what it was. He supplied it. "I know," he said, "It's adultery, isn't
it?" That is what it was, adultery.
There are some things said about adultery, what it does to us, how it
destroys, how it demeans, and tears us apart, and destroys our humanity, and
we looked at those. I read to him some pages out of John White's wonderful
book, Eros Defiled. Then we talked about what was happening in his own
personal life as a result. As we talked, I could see that God had granted
him repentance because, despite his feelings, he looked at me and said, "I
know you're right."
Then we talked about what it would mean to go home, and give up this other
woman. It would be rather like the feeling of passing through death, as
though one has lost a loved one. But many people have to do that when loved
ones are taken home, yet God enables a recovery to come in, and, sooner or
later, they go through a process which leads at last to peace and quietness.
Then this man could re-approach his marriage with a whole new look at what
marriage was, and learn from this. God takes us through circumstances like
this sometimes to show us what we have not been doing about our marriages,
what we can do, and what the possibilities are.
When we had finished he thanked me for having been faithful to him with the
Word of truth. He went away resolving that he would pass through the death
of giving up the other woman so that he might fulfill the will of God, and
thus escape the snare of the devil. Had he gone on, and tried to work this
out on the terms he had in mind when he first came to me, inevitably he
would have ended up not getting what he wanted and having to pay all the
bills along the way. That is what always happens when we run from God, and
have destroyed another person's hopes, dreams and happiness, which we have
sworn to uphold. That is what adultery does.
When we are faithful, when we conduct ourselves as Paul describes here, we
trigger a Divine process that can result in release, even though that may
take us through a form of death. But if we come on argumentatively, angry,
and contentious, we make that process highly unlikely to occur. That is the
thrust that Paul leaves us with.
May God help us to be faithful to the Scripture, yet in such a way that we
are aware of the pain and the hurt that another person can be involved in.
Having been involved in it ourselves to one degree or another, we understand
that it is only through death that life comes.
As Jesus put it, "Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies,
it abides alone [loneliness, emptiness, meaninglessness], but if it dies it
brings forth much fruit," {cf, John 12:24. That is where the Apostle Paul
would lead us as well.
Prayer
Lord, teach us to walk according to the truth of the Word, this wonderful
Book of reality that shows us life the way it really is and enables us to
see through the deceitful snares of the devil, these alluring circumstances
that seem to offer so much and deliver so little. Lord, forgive us and
strengthen us to walk by faith and by the Spirit in the love and grace that
you provide. We pray in Jesus' name, Amen.
Copyright © 1982 Discovery Publishing, a ministry of Peninsula Bible Church.
This data file is the sole property of Discovery Publishing, a ministry of
Peninsula Bible Church. It may be copied only in its entirety for
circulation freely without charge. All copies of this data file must contain
the above copyright notice. This data file may not be copied in part,
edited, revised, copied for resale or incorporated in any commercial
publications, recordings, broadcasts, performances, displays or other
products offered for sale, without the written permission of Discovery
Publishing. Requests for permission should be made in writing and addressed
to Discovery Publishing, 3505 Middlefield Rd. Palo Alto, CA. 94306-3695.
.
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| User: "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" |
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| Title: Re: Guidelines For Controversies |
27 Dec 2007 06:50:55 PM |
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"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:fkaf3h$e32$1@news.utelfla.com...
As many of you know, I no longer willingly engage into arguments, debate
or discussions with people on Usenet who are obvious heretics,
Christian-haters, radical atheists and the like for they are nothing but
vain arguments.
understood, you christian retards have nothing to offer in the way of
OBJECTABLE, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE of the existence of yuor horseshit sky
pixie, so you are giving up.
nice of you to FINALLY admit that your god and your bible are nothing but a
TOTAL AND COMPLETE CROCK OF CRAP
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Guidelines For Controversies |
27 Dec 2007 07:25:10 PM |
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On Dec 27, 7:50=A0pm, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <kill...@killgod.com>
wrote:
understood, you christian retards have nothing to offer in the way of
OBJECTABLE, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE of the existence of yuor horseshit sky
pixie, so you are giving up.
nice of you to FINALLY admit that your god and your bible are nothing but =
a
TOTAL AND COMPLETE CROCK OF CRAP
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their
ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the
world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the
brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion.
The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no knowledge;
those
may truly be said to know nothing that do not know God, v. 4. (from
Matthew
Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a
fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights
in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult.
(NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of
fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly.
(NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own
opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than
both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle,
you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song
of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools.
This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of
fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
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