| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
20 Jun 2007 09:16:44 AM |
| Object: |
Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
"Have I not seen the Lord?"
That was the question that Paul asked of the Corinthians.
And of course, it was a rhetorical question. Paul was
saying that yes indeed, he had seen the Lord!
And so, it makes us wonder, what does it mean to
"see the Lord"?
Today, majority opinion seems to think that it means
to physically see a physical, human Jesus actually
standing in front of them.
But let us look at some of what Paul said about it,
when he noted that He had seen the Lord, in Acts
and in his letter to the Corinthians.
Now I know that most will probably say that Paul
did not actually "see" the Lord. But aren't they
letting doctrine get in the way of believing Scripture?
After all, I just quoted his question at the top of
this message, did I not? :)
So let's look at the account and then look at two
comments that Paul made, one a statement and
one in the form of a rhetorical question, please.
Acts 9:1-6
1) Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder
against the disciples of the Lord, went to the
high priest
2) and asked letters from him to the synagogues
of Damascus, so that if he found any who were
of the Way, whether men or women, he might
bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3) As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and
suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
4) Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice
saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting
Me?
5) And he said, Who are You, Lord? Then the
Lord said, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
It is hard for you to kick against the goads.
6) So he, trembling and astonished, said, Lord,
what do You want me to do? Then the Lord said
to him, Arise and go into the city, and you will be
told what you must do.
Now here it appears that all Paul saw, was a bright light.
Acts 26:12-14
12) While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus
with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13) at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light
from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around
me and those who journeyed with me.
14) And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard
a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew
language, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?
It is hard for you to kick against the goads.
Once again, in Paul's retelling of the story, it seems
as though all he could see was a bright light, even
brighter than the Sun. Certainly, he would have
been blinded and sure enough, he was and had
to be led by the hand and went to see Ananias!
Yet, when he wrote to the Corinthians, he asked...
"Have I not seen the Lord?".
This shows us that to "see the Lord", does not require
one to see a physical being in front of them! When
we read Isaiah 19:1, a fulfilled prophecy, we see that
it says that God would "ride a swift cloud into Egypt"
and yet, no one physically saw God riding a cloud!
It means to know that He is present.
Now I know that there will be those who will not want
to hear and believe that Paul was asking his question
in a rhetorical fashion, because it doesn't fit their
doctrine. But the reality is, he did and so, Paul was
indeed saying that he did "see" the Lord!!!
And for those who will surely try to find a way around
what Paul said, let us look at his question in context...
1 Corinthians 9:1-2
1) Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not
seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work
in the Lord?
2) If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless
I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship
in the Lord.
Now note the questions here and that they are all
rhetorical questions. Or should we say for example,
that Paul wasn't sure if he was an Apostle and was
asking the Corinthians to tell him if he was or not? :)
Yes, it is clear that these were rhetorical questions
and it is clear that Paul saw the Lord, even though
he didn't see a physical, human Jesus standing in
front of him.
So when we talk about "seeing the Lord", let us not
place demands on the Lord, that He never promised
to fulfill in the manner we demand!
Some may quote Acts 1:9-11 and say that He did
promise it that way. But those passages show that
the cloud "received Him OUT OF THEIR SIGHT"
and so, to "return in the same way", in a cloud,
as they say, would mean to return OUT OF their
sight, since He "comes in the clouds", amen?
So let us seek to understand the language of the
Scriptures, instead of trying to read them as if
they were written by 21st century, English speaking
Gentiles! :)
Note for example, that clouds were typically used
as symbolism of God's presence (especially in
judgment) and just like Isaiah 19:1, it did not mean
that God was a physical being, physically riding
a physical cloud. A physical event took place,
in that God used the Assyrians to judge Egypt,
but God did not physically ride a physical cloud!
Now many would love to ignore those passages and
claim that they were symbolic in the Old Testament
are physically literal in the New Testament, but where
is that rule stated in Scripture? And doesn't Scripture
interpret Scripture?
And when we read Rev 1:7 and it says that "every
eye shall see Him", did we notice that it says that
"even they who pierced Him" will be there as well?
So they must still be alive to see Him coming, since
the resurrection wouldn't have happened until after
He arrived! This places it in the first century, not
the twenty first!
So let us be careful how we treat the word of God!
Paul said that he saw the Lord. Do you believe
Paul, or is your doctrine the supreme filter od truth?
You must reject either a doctrine, or Scripture.
I hope you make the right choice.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
20 Jun 2007 04:27:47 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <............SNAFU.......@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:0rci73l1fnj380ug9aekg1g7c96ni2k90o@4ax.com...
Liarhea lips!
All your lies, Satan, have been rebutted and you still pretend you're not a
fool.
You claimed Josephus recorded the coming of the Lord with His angels in 70
AD,
but what Josephus recorded was the angels that were there for centuries were
leaving, not coming.
2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he
may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and,
behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about
Elisha.
"Let us remove hence." (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5,
Section 3)
Things that will happen at His coming:
He gathers His elect, the church into His rest and the Jews, "unto whom I
sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest" (Ps 95:11), enter
His wrath.
.
The church goes to the place prepared for her: "In my Father's house are
many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a
place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come
again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"
(John 14:2-3). That includes the folks beheaded by the antichrist, who
haven't been beheaded yet.
The church is still here.
The Jews are gathered to Israel: "Behold, O my people, I will open your
graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the
land of Israel" (Ezek 37:12).
King David is still in His grave, so is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and
all of Jacob's sons, Moses, Joshua, Elisha, Elijah, and the ones who pierced
Him.
They're all still in their graves.
As the literal translation of 2 John 1:7 says: "For many deceivers are
entering into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the
flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist," you are a deceiver and an
antichrist.
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
..
The ones who pierced Him are resurrected at His coming: "
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.
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| User: "u2fan.org.uk" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
20 Jun 2007 05:42:26 PM |
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Jesus is in heaven, it is a spiritual place, the question is, is
heaven a physical place also.
It depends on what you mean as physical.
Physical existance is related to energy e=mcc
This physical universe was created from energy from God.
God was here in the beginning physically and spiritually.
Does heaven exist or is it just spiritual.
Spiritual is a "higher" dimension, I can goto the new jerusalem any
time I like, but one day in to this physical reality will come the new
jerusalem and Jesus. It will be turned back to energy and made again
IS 65v17
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
21 Jun 2007 07:30:30 AM |
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On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:42:26 -0700, "u2fan.org.uk"
<isaiah6517@googlemail.com> spoke thusly:
Jesus is in heaven, it is a spiritual place, the question is, is
heaven a physical place also.
It depends on what you mean as physical.
Physical existance is related to energy e=mcc
This physical universe was created from energy from God.
God was here in the beginning physically and spiritually.
That's not what the Bible says. So why try to
redefine God?
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth."
- John 4:24
With all due respect, when you have to change
what God is, then your doctrine has a problem.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
21 Jun 2007 03:09:56 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <.........SNAFU........@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:7mrk73d5jacmq0vbgbqfth7lmfnuosmns8@4ax.com...
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:42:26 -0700, "u2fan.org.uk"
<isaiah6517@googlemail.com> spoke thusly:
Jesus is in heaven, it is a spiritual place, the question is, is
heaven a physical place also.
It depends on what you mean as physical.
Physical existance is related to energy e=mcc
This physical universe was created from energy from God.
God was here in the beginning physically and spiritually.
That's not what the Bible says. So why try to
redefine God?
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth."
- John 4:24
With all due respect, when you have to change
what God is, then your doctrine has a problem.
You're right, and your changing Him from Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
points to your problem, Satan.
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.
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| User: "®andy" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
21 Jun 2007 09:19:06 AM |
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:30:30 -0400,
in article <7mrk73d5jacmq0vbgbqfth7lmfnuosmns8@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
That's not what the Bible says. So why try to
redefine God?
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth."
- John 4:24
With all due respect, when you have to change
what God is, then your doctrine has a problem.
You are the one who changes "Spiritual" into "Gnostic".
Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself!
Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as
you see I have."
--
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the
victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. - 1 John
5:4
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "®andy" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
20 Jun 2007 01:23:10 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:16:44 -0400,
in article <0rci73l1fnj380ug9aekg1g7c96ni2k90o@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
"Have I not seen the Lord?"
That was the question that Paul asked of the Corinthians.
And of course, it was a rhetorical question. Paul was
saying that yes indeed, he had seen the Lord!
And so, it makes us wonder, what does it mean to
"see the Lord"?
Today, majority opinion seems to think that it means
to physically see a physical, human Jesus actually
standing in front of them.
But let us look at some of what Paul said about it,
when he noted that He had seen the Lord, in Acts
and in his letter to the Corinthians.
Now I know that most will probably say that Paul
did not actually "see" the Lord. But aren't they
letting doctrine get in the way of believing Scripture?
After all, I just quoted his question at the top of
this message, did I not? :)
So let's look at the account and then look at two
comments that Paul made, one a statement and
one in the form of a rhetorical question, please.
Acts 9:1-6
1) Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder
against the disciples of the Lord, went to the
high priest
2) and asked letters from him to the synagogues
of Damascus, so that if he found any who were
of the Way, whether men or women, he might
bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3) As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and
suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
4) Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice
saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting
Me?
5) And he said, Who are You, Lord? Then the
Lord said, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
It is hard for you to kick against the goads.
6) So he, trembling and astonished, said, Lord,
what do You want me to do? Then the Lord said
to him, Arise and go into the city, and you will be
told what you must do.
Now here it appears that all Paul saw, was a bright light.
Acts 26:12-14
12) While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus
with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13) at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light
from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around
me and those who journeyed with me.
14) And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard
a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew
language, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?
It is hard for you to kick against the goads.
Once again, in Paul's retelling of the story, it seems
as though all he could see was a bright light, even
brighter than the Sun. Certainly, he would have
been blinded and sure enough, he was and had
to be led by the hand and went to see Ananias!
Yet, when he wrote to the Corinthians, he asked...
"Have I not seen the Lord?".
This shows us that to "see the Lord", does not require
one to see a physical being in front of them! When
we read Isaiah 19:1, a fulfilled prophecy, we see that
it says that God would "ride a swift cloud into Egypt"
and yet, no one physically saw God riding a cloud!
It means to know that He is present.
Now I know that there will be those who will not want
to hear and believe that Paul was asking his question
in a rhetorical fashion, because it doesn't fit their
doctrine. But the reality is, he did and so, Paul was
indeed saying that he did "see" the Lord!!!
And for those who will surely try to find a way around
what Paul said, let us look at his question in context...
1 Corinthians 9:1-2
1) Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not
seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work
in the Lord?
2) If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless
I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship
in the Lord.
Now note the questions here and that they are all
rhetorical questions. Or should we say for example,
that Paul wasn't sure if he was an Apostle and was
asking the Corinthians to tell him if he was or not? :)
Yes, it is clear that these were rhetorical questions
and it is clear that Paul saw the Lord, even though
he didn't see a physical, human Jesus standing in
front of him.
So when we talk about "seeing the Lord", let us not
place demands on the Lord, that He never promised
to fulfill in the manner we demand!
The fact remains, Paul literally saw the Lord, when the Lord
was in heaven. Seeing someone, spiritually, doesn't cause
scales to form over your eyes. He was literally blinded by
the light of the Lord's appearance! This does nothing to
define the manner in which the Lord will return, and even if
it did, it would mean people would be literally blinded by His
appearance!
--
The LORD will keep you from all harm— he will watch over your
life; the LORD will watch over your coming and going both now
and forevermore. - Psalm 121:7-8
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
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| User: "®andy" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
20 Jun 2007 01:42:58 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:16:44 -0400,
in article <0rci73l1fnj380ug9aekg1g7c96ni2k90o@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
And when we read Rev 1:7 and it says that "every
eye shall see Him", did we notice that it says that
"even they who pierced Him" will be there as well?
Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of
supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have
pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his
only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is
in bitterness for his firstborn.
This is clearly a reference to the godly remnant of Israel,
upon whom God will pour grace. It says "they" will mourn for
Him as one mourns for His only son and firstborn. Christ was
born of the nation Israel, not just specifically the exact
persons who pierced Him. It is a reference to the nation, not
a few individuals who actually pierced the Lord.
So they must still be alive to see Him coming, since
the resurrection wouldn't have happened until after
He arrived! This places it in the first century, not
the twenty first!
Only if "they" is forced to mean the exact persons who pierced
the Lord, instead of the godly remnant of Israel upon whom God
would pour grace.
--
Wait for the LORD; be strong and take heart and wait for the
LORD. - Psalm 27:14
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
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| User: "®andy" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
20 Jun 2007 01:17:36 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:16:44 -0400,
in article <0rci73l1fnj380ug9aekg1g7c96ni2k90o@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
Some may quote Acts 1:9-11 and say that He did
promise it that way. But those passages show that
the cloud "received Him OUT OF THEIR SIGHT"
and so, to "return in the same way", in a cloud,
as they say, would mean to return OUT OF their
sight, since He "comes in the clouds", amen?
No, He ascended in the manner they JUST saw Him ascend, which
was literally, bodily, and visibly standing on the ground in
front of them, and rising up into the clouds until He was out
of their sight. Returning in "like manner", then, would mean
he begins descending out of their sight, and comes down
through the clouds, until he is literally, bodily, and visibly
standing on the ground in front of them.
You talk about choosing Scripture over doctrine, yet you are
the one who chooses to believe the doctrine of preterism,
regardless of how you have to twist Scripture to make things
seem like they fit. This is obvious.
So let us seek to understand the language of the
Scriptures, instead of trying to read them as if
they were written by 21st century, English speaking
Gentiles! :)
How about letting the return of Christ be in "like manner" as
they JUST saw Him depart, instead of ignoring the context of
the Scripture in Acts 1, and running around in the Old
Testament, until you find some figurative sense in which the
Lord rides the clouds, then trying to impose that
understanding on the NT account of the manner in which Christ
returns?
Your attempt to impose the meaning of your own desired
doctrine on this passage, rather than just admit what it
plainly says, is stark-ravingly obvious. That you then have
the gall to act like *we're* the ones choosing to believe our
own favorite doctrine, instead of what the Bible plainly
teaches, makes you insufferable.
Note for example, that clouds were typically used
as symbolism of God's presence (especially in
judgment) and just like Isaiah 19:1, it did not mean
that God was a physical being, physically riding
a physical cloud. A physical event took place,
in that God used the Assyrians to judge Egypt,
but God did not physically ride a physical cloud!
ibid. You couldn't be a more obvious, hypocritical liar, who
more obviously ignores the plain meaning and understanding of
the Scripture in context, or who more obviously labors to
impose the conclusion of your own desired doctrine, rather
than just admit what the passage plainly says.
Now many would love to ignore those passages
No, how you would love to ignore what the Scripture in Acts
1:9ff. plainly states, in favor of your own desired conclusion
that the Lord not return visibly and bodily, as they JUST saw
Him ascend! And why? Because the Lord didn't return
literally, bodily, and visibly, in A.D. 70, but you love the
doctrine of preterism more than what the Bible plainly states!
claim that they were symbolic in the Old Testament
are physically literal in the New Testament, but where
is that rule stated in Scripture? And doesn't Scripture
interpret Scripture?
The Scripture that interprets this Scripture, is the Scripture
right before your eyes when you read the passage itself.
There's no need to go looking for other Scripture to explain
the manner in which the Lord will return, when this passage
clearly identifies it as the manner in which eyewitnesses JUST
saw Him ascend...unless, of course, you are desperately trying
to force your own desired doctrine onto this passage, despite
what the Scriptures CLEARLY state!
--
Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of
believers, fear God, honor the king. - 1 Peter 2:17
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
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| User: "®andy" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
20 Jun 2007 12:51:27 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:16:44 -0400,
in article <0rci73l1fnj380ug9aekg1g7c96ni2k90o@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
You must reject either a doctrine, or Scripture.
I hope you make the right choice.
I choose to reject the doctrine of preterism, instead of
Scripture.
--
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble,
whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,
whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or
praiseworthy—think about such things. - Philippians 4:8
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
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| Title: Love the LORD your GOD. |
21 Jun 2007 03:23:21 AM |
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"Love each other as I have loved you." -- LORD Jesus Christ
Amen.
Marana tha
Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Have I Not Seen the Lord? |
20 Jun 2007 11:52:02 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
"Have I not seen the Lord?"
If you are truthful - then - NO
That was the question that Paul asked of the Corinthians.
And of course, it was a rhetorical question. Paul was
saying that yes indeed, he had seen the Lord!
And so, it makes us wonder, what does it mean to
"see the Lord"?
Today, majority opinion seems to think that it means
to physically see a physical, human Jesus actually
standing in front of them.
But let us look at some of what Paul said about it,
when he noted that He had seen the Lord, in Acts
and in his letter to the Corinthians.
Now I know that most will probably say that Paul
did not actually "see" the Lord. But aren't they
letting doctrine get in the way of believing Scripture?
After all, I just quoted his question at the top of
this message, did I not? :)
So let's look at the account and then look at two
comments that Paul made, one a statement and
one in the form of a rhetorical question, please.
Acts 9:1-6
1) Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder
against the disciples of the Lord, went to the
high priest
2) and asked letters from him to the synagogues
of Damascus, so that if he found any who were
of the Way, whether men or women, he might
bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3) As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and
suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
4) Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice
saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting
Me?
5) And he said, Who are You, Lord? Then the
Lord said, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
It is hard for you to kick against the goads.
6) So he, trembling and astonished, said, Lord,
what do You want me to do? Then the Lord said
to him, Arise and go into the city, and you will be
told what you must do.
Now here it appears that all Paul saw, was a bright light.
Acts 26:12-14
12) While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus
with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13) at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light
from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around
me and those who journeyed with me.
14) And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard
a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew
language, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?
It is hard for you to kick against the goads.
Once again, in Paul's retelling of the story, it seems
as though all he could see was a bright light, even
brighter than the Sun. Certainly, he would have
been blinded and sure enough, he was and had
to be led by the hand and went to see Ananias!
Yet, when he wrote to the Corinthians, he asked...
"Have I not seen the Lord?".
This shows us that to "see the Lord", does not require
one to see a physical being in front of them! When
we read Isaiah 19:1, a fulfilled prophecy, we see that
it says that God would "ride a swift cloud into Egypt"
and yet, no one physically saw God riding a cloud!
It means to know that He is present.
Now I know that there will be those who will not want
to hear and believe that Paul was asking his question
in a rhetorical fashion, because it doesn't fit their
doctrine. But the reality is, he did and so, Paul was
indeed saying that he did "see" the Lord!!!
And for those who will surely try to find a way around
what Paul said, let us look at his question in context...
1 Corinthians 9:1-2
1) Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not
seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work
in the Lord?
2) If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless
I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship
in the Lord.
Now note the questions here and that they are all
rhetorical questions. Or should we say for example,
that Paul wasn't sure if he was an Apostle and was
asking the Corinthians to tell him if he was or not? :)
Yes, it is clear that these were rhetorical questions
and it is clear that Paul saw the Lord, even though
he didn't see a physical, human Jesus standing in
front of him.
So when we talk about "seeing the Lord", let us not
place demands on the Lord, that He never promised
to fulfill in the manner we demand!
Some may quote Acts 1:9-11 and say that He did
promise it that way. But those passages show that
the cloud "received Him OUT OF THEIR SIGHT"
and so, to "return in the same way", in a cloud,
as they say, would mean to return OUT OF their
sight, since He "comes in the clouds", amen?
So let us seek to understand the language of the
Scriptures, instead of trying to read them as if
they were written by 21st century, English speaking
Gentiles! :)
Note for example, that clouds were typically used
as symbolism of God's presence (especially in
judgment) and just like Isaiah 19:1, it did not mean
that God was a physical being, physically riding
a physical cloud. A physical event took place,
in that God used the Assyrians to judge Egypt,
but God did not physically ride a physical cloud!
Now many would love to ignore those passages and
claim that they were symbolic in the Old Testament
are physically literal in the New Testament, but where
is that rule stated in Scripture? And doesn't Scripture
interpret Scripture?
And when we read Rev 1:7 and it says that "every
eye shall see Him", did we notice that it says that
"even they who pierced Him" will be there as well?
So they must still be alive to see Him coming, since
the resurrection wouldn't have happened until after
He arrived! This places it in the first century, not
the twenty first!
So let us be careful how we treat the word of God!
Paul said that he saw the Lord. Do you believe
Paul, or is your doctrine the supreme filter od truth?
You must reject either a doctrine, or Scripture.
I hope you make the right choice.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
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