"John Ings" <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message
news:t4b1b0pa4altcqmbhod1k93aolt0rfjkp1@4ax.com...

On Sun, 23 May 2004 11:57:28 GMT, "Neill" <nmlaneyNO@SPAMhotmail.com>
wrote:

This was sent to me and I thought to pass it on.

Subject: HISTORY FORGOTTEN

More like history made up.

Wasn't it made up by the Supreme Court? Long after the Constitution was
ratified there were states that supported Church/Churches. The Constitution
only concerned the Fed Govt except where specifically it referred to States.
No power of religion was ceded to the Fed Govt by the States...

Separation of Church and State? The term or even inference didn't exist

in

the Constitution until the Supreme Court made it up!

The phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," was
coined by President Thomas Jefferson in a carefully crafted letter to
the Danbury Baptists in 1802, when they had asked him to explain the

Did the Danbury Baptist believe that there is 'a wall of separation between
church and state'? Philip Hamburger in his book "Separation of Church and
State," states: 'Yet the Baptist of the Danbury Association did not publish
their letter from the president, and, far from employing Jefferson's words
about separation, they continued to demand their freedom with the vocabulary
and concepts they had used in the past. Apparently, separation was not what
the Baptists wanted. Indeed, it was incompatible with their understanding
of the pervasive value of Christianity." p163 Note Conn. was one of the
States that supported a Church/Churches.

First Amendment. The Supreme Court, and lower courts, have used
Jefferson's phrase repeatedly in major decisions upholding neutrality
in matters of religion. The exact words "separation of church and
state" do not appear in the Constitution; neither do "separation of
powers," "interstate commerce," "right to privacy," and other phrases
describing well-established constitutional principles.

Yes, the Courts have used Jeffersons phrase repeatedly, but doing so out of
historical context.

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the
people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only
references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test
shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public
trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
(First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath
detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me
God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause
8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

IMO, and it is just my opinion, we can be a Christian nation with out it
being a Christian theocracy. Christian ethics/morals/values should be as
welcome as any other ethics/morals/values system when it comes to
government. As an aside the US Constitution does mention our Lord:
".....present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one
thousand seven hundred....." dating from an important event in the history
of man. Compare this to the French Revolution which recognized the goddess
of reason with the new calander beginning with year 1 starting from the
French Revolution...truly secular.

This is worth remembering, because it is true. It's familiar territory,
but those of you that graduated from school after the early 60's were
probably never taught this. Our courts have seen to that!

Couldn't be because it isn't so huh?

Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of

Independence"

were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? That they all believed in

the

Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal
intervention.

"When the crisis came, Jefferson, Paine, John Adams, Washington,
Franklin, Madison, and many lesser lights were to be reckoned among
either the Unitarians or the Deists. it was not Cotton Mather's God to
whom the author of the Declaration of Independence appealed, it was to
'Nature's God.' From whatever source derived, the effect of both
Unitarianism and Deism was to hasten the retirement of historic
theology from its empire over the intellect of American leaders, and
to clear the atmosphere for secular interests" -- The Rise of American
Civilization," by Charles A. and Mary R. Beard. (Vol. I., p. 449.)

Doesn't the Bible describe the same Natures God..."For since the creation of
the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine
nature--have been clearly seen being understood from what has been made, so
that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20 Also see Psalm 65:6-13 Isn't
this the same Creator who endows us with unalienable rights?

It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society,

immediately

after creating the Declaration of Independence.

The first draft of the declaration was written by Thomas Paine,
including those immortal words "When in the course of human events..."
and "We hold these truths to be self evident..."

Want to know what Paine thought of the Bible? Here's a sample--

"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word
of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the
Holy Bible! This is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"

Mr. Paine is welcomed to his opinion. I don't think it was reflected in the
DofI., do you?

It was Thomas Jefferson who presented the final version to the house
for signature. He approved of Jesus teachings, but not the New
Testament's claim to his deity--

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as
the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a
three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to
know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs
to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are
always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." -- Thomas Jefferson

Which catagory did TJ put himself? "On 1/3/1802, John Leland took advantage
of his visit to Washington to preach in the House of Reps, and on that day
Jefferson, apparently for the first time during his presidency, attended
services in the House. As James H. Hutson has pointed out, 'It is no
accident that Jefferson issued the Danbury letter on Friday, 1/1/1802, and
two days later, on Sunday, 1/3/1802, contrary to all former practice, went
to his first church service in the House, which he attended constantly for
the next seven years. J.H.Huston, Religion and the founding of the American
Republic.' In short by attending church services in Congress, Jefferson
intended to send to the nation the strongest symbol possible that he was a
friend of religion." Separation of Church and State, Philip Hamburger.
Religious services were being held in a Fed Govt bldg?...what were the
Framers views on the 'separation of church and state?...surely not the
Supreme Court's...did the Framers not understand the 1st amend, while todays
Supreme Court does?

The Continental Congress
voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of
this nation.

Patrick Henry, who is called the firebrand of the American Revolution,
is still remembered for his words, "Give me liberty or give me death";
but in current textbooks, the context of these words is
omitted. Here is what he actually said:

"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us.
But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that
presides over the destinies of nations. The battle, sir, is not
to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be
purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God.
I know not what course others may take, but as for me,
give me liberty, or give me death."

These sentences have been erased from our textbooks. Was Patrick
Henry a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this:


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation
was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but
on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other
faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here".

Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote in the front of his
well-worn Bible: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of
the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will
soon be rallied to the unity of our creator." He was also the chairman
of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most
important role.

He also wrote this:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed
with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The highest glory of the
American Revolution was this: "It connected in one indissoluble bond
the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

But Adams himself was a Unitarian. And when he presented a treaty
with Tripoli to the senate that had been signed during George
Washington's tenure as president it contained this passage:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character
of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity of Musselmen,
--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of
hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties
that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt
the harmony existing between the two countries."

I see nothing wrong with this statement. It (the Fed Govt) formation was
based on views/opinions/scholarship of the Framers, which many were
Christian. States could/or could not have state supported church/churchse.
The Fed Govt was not allowed to support a church or churches/religion. No
religious powers were ceded to the Fed Govt.

Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States reaffirmed
this truth when he wrote, "The foundations of our society and our
government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be
difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be
practically universal in our country."

And Abe Lincoln wrote this:
"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of
salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer
and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I
shall ever change them."

Yet, read his (Lincoln's), I think it was his second inaugural address.

In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: "The
Congress of the United States recommends and approves
the Holy Bible for use in all schools."

William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader,
which was used for over 100 years in our public schools with over 125
million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln

called

him the "Schoolmaster of the Nation." Listen to these words of

Mr.McGuffey:

"The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are

derived

our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the
universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free
Institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously
than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible,

But when the teaching of Christianity in the schools of Virginia was
proposed, James Madison wrote as part of his scathing remonstrance:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in
all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility
in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

Also in the same: 'that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator
and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and
conviction not by force or violence." Clearly recognizing the importance of
religious influence in the life of a nation, including government. Wasn't
this more a criticism of the clergys exploitation of religion rather than
religion?

This was sent to me and I thought to pass it on.

Subject: HISTORY FORGOTTEN

More like history made up.

Wasn't it made up by the Supreme Court?

Long after the Constitution was
ratified there were states that supported Church/Churches. The Constitution
only concerned the Fed Govt except where specifically it referred to States.
No power of religion was ceded to the Fed Govt by the States...

Separation of Church and State? The term or even inference didn't exist
in the Constitution until the Supreme Court made it up!

The phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," was
coined by President Thomas Jefferson in a carefully crafted letter to
the Danbury Baptists in 1802, when they had asked him to explain the

Did the Danbury Baptist believe that there is 'a wall of separation between
church and state'? Philip Hamburger in his book "Separation of Church and
State," states: 'Yet the Baptist of the Danbury Association did not publish
their letter from the president, and, far from employing Jefferson's words
about separation, they continued to demand their freedom with the vocabulary
and concepts they had used in the past. Apparently, separation was not what
the Baptists wanted. Indeed, it was incompatible with their understanding
of the pervasive value of Christianity." p163 Note Conn. was one of the
States that supported a Church/Churches.

First Amendment. The Supreme Court, and lower courts, have used
Jefferson's phrase repeatedly in major decisions upholding neutrality
in matters of religion. The exact words "separation of church and
state" do not appear in the Constitution; neither do "separation of
powers," "interstate commerce," "right to privacy," and other phrases
describing well-established constitutional principles.

Yes, the Courts have used Jeffersons phrase repeatedly, but doing so out of
historical context.

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the
people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only
references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test
shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public
trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
(First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath
detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me
God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause
8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

IMO, and it is just my opinion, we can be a Christian nation with out it
being a Christian theocracy. Christian ethics/morals/values should be as
welcome as any other ethics/morals/values system when it comes to
government.

As an aside the US Constitution does mention our Lord:
".....present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one
thousand seven hundred....." dating from an important event in the history
of man.

"When the crisis came, Jefferson, Paine, John Adams, Washington,
Franklin, Madison, and many lesser lights were to be reckoned among
either the Unitarians or the Deists. it was not Cotton Mather's God to
whom the author of the Declaration of Independence appealed, it was to
'Nature's God.' From whatever source derived, the effect of both
Unitarianism and Deism was to hasten the retirement of historic
theology from its empire over the intellect of American leaders, and
to clear the atmosphere for secular interests" -- The Rise of American
Civilization," by Charles A. and Mary R. Beard. (Vol. I., p. 449.)

Doesn't the Bible describe the same Natures God...

Isn't this the same Creator who endows us with unalienable rights?

Want to know what Paine thought of the Bible? Here's a sample--

"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word
of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the
Holy Bible! This is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"

Mr. Paine is welcomed to his opinion. I don't think it was reflected in the
DofI., do you?

It was Thomas Jefferson who presented the final version to the house
for signature. He approved of Jesus teachings, but not the New
Testament's claim to his deity--

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as
the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a
three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to
know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs
to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are
always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." -- Thomas Jefferson

Which catagory did TJ put himself?

On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The highest glory of the
American Revolution was this: "It connected in one indissoluble bond
the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

But Adams himself was a Unitarian. And when he presented a treaty
with Tripoli to the senate that had been signed during George
Washington's tenure as president it contained this passage:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character
of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity of Musselmen,
--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of
hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties
that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt
the harmony existing between the two countries."

I see nothing wrong with this statement. It (the Fed Govt) formation was
based on views/opinions/scholarship of the Framers, which many were
Christian. States could/or could not have state supported church/churchse.
The Fed Govt was not allowed to support a church or churches/religion. No
religious powers were ceded to the Fed Govt.

And Abe Lincoln wrote this:
"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of
salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer
and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I
shall ever change them."

Yet, read his (Lincoln's), I think it was his second inaugural address.

But when the teaching of Christianity in the schools of Virginia was
proposed, James Madison wrote as part of his scathing remonstrance:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in
all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility
in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

Also in the same: 'that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator
and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and
conviction not by force or violence."

Clearly recognizing the importance of
religious influence in the life of a nation, including government.

Wasn't this more a criticism of the clergys exploitation of religion rather than
religion?

## Shall God govern by the laws of nature,
## or priests by fictitious miracles?
John Adams