| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Carl" |
| Date: |
23 Aug 2007 05:25:47 PM |
| Object: |
How Can God Exist in Three Persons? |
In the following article, noted theologian J. Vernon McGee answers the
question "How Can God Exist in Three Persons?"
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
How Can God Exist in Three Persons?
by J. Vernon McGee
The great English poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge, in a conversation with
Robert Browning remarked, "I read all your poetry, but nine-tenths of it I
do not understand." Robert Browning answered him by saying, "Sir, a person
of your caliber ought to be satisfied if he understands one-tenth."
Well, I have spent more than a quarter of a century in serious study of the
Word of God, and I confess to my appalling ignorance in certain areas,
especially in the subject of the Trinity. If you could have met me the year
I graduated from seminary, you would have heard me give absolute answers to
all your questions. But I am unable to do that today. In fact, I would be
content if I understood one-tenth of the great truth concerning our triune
God.
I assure you that with all my heart I believe in the Trinity. I revel and
rejoice in it, believing that it is not only a great truth but also one of
the unique truths of the Christian faith. But I confess that I find it to be
an enigmatic mystery, an inscrutable riddle. I find that it is complicated,
complex, bewildering, and impossible to explain. Why?
One reason is that the Trinity is not geared to this mechanical age.
Tensions and pressures hurry us through life. A cartoonist has pictured a
man sitting in a one-counter restaurant, giving his order to the waitress.
He is saying, "I have to be at work in twenty-three minutes. I want
one-minute oatmeal, three-minute eggs, two-minute bacon, forty-five second
toast, and instant coffee." An age that goes at a pace like that is not an
age that will know very much about the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be
explained in just a few moments. It is doubtful if it can ever be
satisfactorily explained, yet we need to study it carefully.
For several hundred years after the apostles lived, the Trinity was a most
important subject to intelligent men. Men like Irenaeus, Tertullian,
Athanasius, Origen, and Augustine gave themselves to the study of this great
doctrine. It was the all-engrossing topic that men of keen intellect spent
their time pondering. As a result, the doctrine of the Trinity broadly
affected European life for centuries. From the day of the apostles until
about the seventh century it was very important to multitudes of people. The
economic, political, and social spheres were all essentially influenced by
this truth. Rulers reigned, armies marched, and diplomats convened as this
truth helped shape the destiny of Europe.
All so-called theological liberalism is basically off at this point. Behind
the denial of the deity of Christ is the denial of the Trinity. This denial
came into America by way of New England through the Congregational churches,
which eventually became largely Unitarian churches. There is an ancient
adage that warns that those who try to understand the Trinity lose their
minds and those who deny the Trinity lose their souls. We are caught in that
kind of dilemma. Although we shall not be able to understand it fully, or
perhaps not even satisfactorily, we shall at least stand on the fringe of
this great truth and worship.
We will look at the definition of the Trinity, then the declaration in
Scripture of the Trinity, and finally illustrations of the Trinity from
nature.
The Trinity Defined
First is the definition of the Trinity. What do we mean by "the Trinity"? We
mean three Persons in the Godhead. There are two extremes that we need to
avoid. They are like Scylla on one hand and Charybdis on the other (two
equally dangerous monsters), and we need to sail our little bark between
them.
The initial danger, when speaking of the Trinity, is to have in mind three
gods. That is a false concept. Then there is the other extreme of holding
that the one God has expressed Himself in three different ways, which is
also false. This error, known as modal-Trinitarianism, was thoroughly
answered by some of the giants of the faith whom we have already named.
I turn now to what I believe is the best statement made on this subject. It
is in the Westminster Confession of Faith. The question is asked: "How many
persons are there in the Godhead?" The answer is: "There are three persons
in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are
one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory." That definition
is the finest to be found.
Now notice that three Persons constitute one Being, one God. Peter, James,
and John are not a trinity. They are three persons, but they are not the
same, they are not equal. There are three chairs before me. They look alike
and probably are constructed of the same material-possibly of the same
tree-yet they are not a trinity.
God is one Being, and yet He is three Persons. However, these three have one
nature. For instance, a great many like to make a distinction by saying that
God is holy, Christ is love, and the Holy Spirit is infinite. Such is a
false distinction, for God is holy, Christ is holy, and the Holy Spirit is
holy; God is love (that is one of His definitions), Christ is love, and the
Holy Spirit is love; God is infinite, Christ is infinite, and the Holy
Spirit is infinite.
The three Persons are also the same in their attributes, in their will, and
in their purpose. What one wills, all will. When the Lord Jesus came to
earth He made this very clear. He said, "I have come to do My Father's will"
(see John 14 and 15). What He had come to do was in harmony with the Father,
for all three were in agreement. He came to do the Father's will; He came to
do His own will, which was evident; and He came to do the will of the Holy
Spirit-He was led and guided by the Spirit of God.
Each one is God. Christ did not become a Son over time. He was always the
only begotten Son of God. You see, God is called the everlasting Father, and
you cannot have an everlasting Father unless you have an everlasting Son.
There never was a time when Christ became the Son-He eternally occupies that
position in the Trinity.
Another false way of stating it is to say that God is the Father, Christ is
the Son, and the Holy Spirit is sort of like the Grandson. There was never a
time when God was not the Father, there was never a time when Christ was not
the Son, and there was never a time when the Holy Spirit was not the Holy
Spirit. There are some who will say that because the Lord Jesus Christ came
to this earth as a man, He is not equal with the Father. This is also wrong,
for He said, "The Father and I are one" (John 10:30).
They have the same nature. There are not three gods and they are never
opposed to one another. What one does all of them do. The clarity of this
fact can do nothing but make us stand on the fringe and know that we are in
the presence of the Infinite.
The Trinity Declared by Scripture
We come now to the declaration in Scripture of the Trinity. I hasten to say
that the word trinity is not used in Scripture. But neither is the word
atonement used in the New Testament (the word incorrectly translated as
atonement in Romans 5:11 [kjv] is actually reconciliation). But although the
word does not appear in the New Testament, it certainly teaches what the Old
Testament presents as the Atonement. It is not necessary to have the word,
because that which the word signifies is taught in the New Testament
Scripture. Since the word trinity does not appear in Scripture, does the
Bible actually teach the doctrine of the Trinity? If it does not, we can
dismiss the subject and forget about it. But if the Word of God does teach
the Trinity, then we should believe it.
Someone may say, "Before I believe it I want to understand it." If truth is
only that which we understand, may I say that there is not much that is true
today, for we are quite limited in our understanding. On such a basis,
trigonometry and organic chemistry are not true because I don't understand
them. In college I had no desire to understand them, and today I still have
no desire to understand these two subjects. Yet I do not take the awkward
and ignorant position that they are not true subjects-they are. Thankfully,
truth is not limited to my little mind or to your little mind. There are
those today who, because they cannot understand the Trinity, want to dismiss
it. However, the real question is: Does the Word of God teach the Trinity?
The Trinity in the Old Testament
I turn back now to the Old Testament because it clearly teaches the Trinity.
The verse of Scripture that is probably the greatest doctrinal statement in
the Old Testament is found in the Book of Deuteronomy:
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
(Deuteronomy 6:4)
If you want a literal translation, it is, "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our
plural God is one God!" The word one is echad, the same word used back in
Genesis 2:24 when God said, concerning Adam and Eve, "And they shall become
one flesh." Two persons become one. In that mysterious relationship of
marriage, two people are made one, which is evident always in the child.
They shall be one flesh, though two-two in one. This is the word used in
Deuteronomy 6:4 (my paraphrase), "Hear, O Israel: Elohim-our plural God, our
Trinity, tri-personality-is one God!" The mysterious One, like Adam and Eve
made one flesh, is three Persons in one. That is a wonderful truth and
unfathomable by human reason.
Scripture, you see, teaches the Trinity. The Old Testament repeatedly
declares the plurality of God. If you go back to the first chapter of
Genesis, you will see this again:
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let
them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and
over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that
creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image; in the image of
God He created him; male and female He created them.
(Genesis 1:26-27)
Notice that God said, "Let Us make man in Our image." It is plural. Then in
the eleventh chapter of Genesis, at the Tower of Babel, God said:
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not
understand one another's speech." So the Lord scattered them abroad from
there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
(vv. 7-8)
We see here that the Lord scattered them, but He said, "Let Us go down." The
Trinity came down, but He is still one God.
Moving on in the Old Testament we find that Isaiah said:
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will
go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."
(Isaiah 6:8)
Before this, Isaiah had gone into the temple and heard the seraphim saying,
"Holy, holy, holy"-not twice, not four times, but three times. It was a
praise to the triune God. Holy is the Father, holy is the Son, and holy is
the Spirit.
In Ecclesiastes we read the familiar words, "Remember now your Creator in
the days of your youth" (12:1). The word Creator is Boreacho, which means
"Creators," plural. "Remember now thy Creators, thy Trinity"-for the Trinity
was involved in creation, as you well know. We are told that God the Father
was the Creator, "In the beginning God created ." Both the Gospel of John
(1:3) and the Epistle to the Colossians (1:16) tell us that the Lord Jesus
Christ was the Creator. Also we are told that the Holy Spirit of God was the
Creator: "The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters"
(Genesis 1:2). Thus it is evident that the Trinity was involved in creation
just as the Trinity is involved in redemption.
In the Old Testament, Israel witnessed to a polytheistic world-a
civilization with many gods-concerning the unity of the Godhead. That was
the mission of Israel in the ancient world. The mission of the church in
this day is to a world not given to polytheism (the worship of many gods),
but to atheism (the worship of no god). To our godless civilization we are
to witness to the Trinity. For that reason the Unitarian doctrine that God
exists only in one person is a damnable heresy that has injured America more
than any other thing. It is what has softened and weakened this great
country of ours.
The Trinity in the New Testament
The Trinity is an explicit and peculiar doctrine of the New Testament.
The record in the Gospels of the baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ
graphically presents the Trinity. At the time the Lord Jesus was baptized He
saw the Holy Spirit as a dove coming upon Him, and the voice of the Father
from heaven spoke saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well
pleased" (Matthew 3:17). The Trinity-the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-is
clearly brought before us on this occasion.
Again, in the baptismal formula that Jesus gave to His apostles when He sent
them out, He said, ". baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the
Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).
Paul, in his apostolic benediction, includes the three persons of the
Godhead:
The grace of the *Lord Jesus Christ*, and the love of *God*, and the
communion of the *Holy Spirit* be with you all. Amen.
(2 Corinthians 13:14, emphasis mine)
The Lord Jesus even taught His disciples the doctrine of the Trinity:
And I will pray the *Father*, and He will give you another *Helper* [like I
am, on the same par with Me], that He may abide with you forever."
(John 14:16, emphasis mine)
The New Testament abounds with the teaching of the Trinity, for it
repeatedly names the three persons of the Godhead. We have a Father who is
God:
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you
and peace from *God our Father* and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Romans 1:7, emphasis mine)
We have presented to us in the New Testament a Son who is God:
But to the *Son* He says: "Your throne, *O God*, is forever and ever; a
scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom."
(Hebrews 1:8, emphasis mine)
Also the Holy Spirit is presented as God. At the incident involving Ananias
and Sapphira, Peter said:
Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the *Holy Spirit* and
keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was
it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why
have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to
*God*.
(Acts 5:3-4, emphasis mine)
Peter is saying here, "You have lied to the Holy Spirit, and when you have
lied to the Holy Spirit you have lied to God." The Holy Spirit is God.
The Trinity Illustrated by Nature
We come now to our third point, illustrations from nature of the Trinity.
I repeat the question: Is it possible to understand the Trinity? If the
answer must be either yes or no, it has to be an emphatic no. The centuries
have revealed that the intellect of the genius, the perspicuity of the
philosopher, the comprehension of the scientist, and the lucidity of the
orator have not been enough to make clear the Trinity. The reason is this:
There are no perfect examples that can be used, because it is impossible to
demonstrate the infinite God by finite creation. We cannot employ the
creation to illustrate adequately the Creator in His person. Now it is true
that the love of God can be illustrated by human love. You can take that
feeling of love and translate it into human terminology. You see a mother
bending over the crib of her little baby and somehow it illustrates
something of God's great pulsating love for us. But in nature you find no
such illustration for the Trinity. Yet I shall dare to pull in several
illustrations from nature that may be somewhat helpful.
Man Is a Trinity
First of all, I want to look at man himself.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely [your total
personality]; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved
blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Thessalonians 5:23)
Man was created in the image of God, and so man is a trinity-body, soul, and
spirit. Believe me, if we could understand human nature, we would have a
better understanding of God. But we do not understand even ourselves.
Psychology has wrestled with this. When psychology began, it dealt only with
the spirit or the soul. Then it found it was on the wrong track, and it
swung over to the opposite extreme, as in my day when the psychology studied
in college was behaviorism. It taught that we are only physical, that we are
like a series of push buttons. You push this button and you get that
reaction. The difficulty is that you push a certain button on one fellow and
get a certain reaction, but you push the same button on another fellow and
you get a different reaction. Since that theory did not work, psychology
changed its mind again and said that we are more than body and more than
just spirit. Psychology now admits that man is a threefold being: Man is
sarcous, man is psychic, and man is pneumatic. In other words, there is the
body, there is the psychological part, and there is the spiritual part. We
are more than body; we are more than just mind; we are more than spirit.
By the way, I am thankful we are more than spirit. What a relief it was to
me when I found out that I was not going to be an angel. When I was a little
fellow in Sunday school they taught us to sing, "I want to be an angel, and
with the angels sing." Well, I never wanted to be an angel because I thought
angels flitted around without bodies, which never suited me at all. I am
thankful that throughout eternity we are to have bodies. We have been
created a trinity-body, soul, and spirit.
When we say that we do not understand the Trinity, we must confess that
neither do we understand ourselves. When we better understand man, we shall
understand something of the Trinity that is God.
Music Is a Trinity
Let me move now into another realm of nature-the field of music. I am told
that in music there are seven tones on the major scale but that there are
only three structural tones. These are the principal chords: the tonic, the
subdominant, and the dominant. These are the three major tones, and out of
them comes all of our music. You cannot have harmony without these three.
There is the harmony of heaven. The Word of God speaks of it before man was
created "when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God
shouted for joy" (Job 38:7). This heavenly music was based on a trinity-you
cannot have harmony without it.
Thus in the realm of music you have the three that make one, and the one is
harmony.
Water Is a Trinity
Let us move further into nature and consider water. Water is used in the
Scriptures as a picture of God-He is spoken of as water. Listen to the psalm
that is David's heart cry:
As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. My
soul thirsts for God, for the living God.
(Psalm 42:1-2)
David is saying here, "What the water brook is to a little animal, that is
what God is to me."
Then notice another psalm in which water repeatedly pictures God:
You visit the earth and water it, You greatly enrich it; the river of God is
full of water; You provide their grain, for so You have prepared it.
(Psalm 65:9)
Throughout the Old Testament water is a picture of God, so that when we come
to the New Testament it is not surprising to hear the Lord Jesus cry on that
last day of the feast, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink"
(John 7:37), for water is a picture of God.
Water is also a picture of the Trinity, for water exists in three forms, in
three states. It exists in flowing water, it exists in ice, and it exists in
steam. They are the same substance, but they are absolutely three different
things.
Ice, I would suggest, reminds us of God the Father-stability, immutability.
Steam reminds us of the Holy Spirit-the power of God. Water reminds us of
the Lord Jesus Christ-the Water of Life today.
Light Is a Trinity
For our final illustration, let us consider light. We are told that God
dwells in light and that He is light. "In Him is no darkness at all" (1 John
1:5). One of the glorious prospects of our future eternal home is that there
will be no night there.
Light is probably the most expressive and adequate illustration we have of
the Trinity. God is light; God is holy. It is the attribute of the Father,
but Christ also is the Light of the World. He declared this attribute when a
great sinner was brought to Him, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12).
He was manifest. He is the "light" in John 1:5: "And the light shines in the
darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
The Holy Spirit is called light. That lampstand back in the tabernacle and
then the temple bore lights that spoke of the Holy Spirit of God. Zechariah
was given a vision of the lampstand which was supplied with oil directly
from the olive trees instead of through a middleman. In case there was any
question, God provided the explanation: " 'Not by might nor by power, but by
My Spirit,' says the Lord of hosts" (Zechariah 4:6, emphasis mine).
In the Book of Revelation, John was given the vision of God's throne, which
is characterized by light:
And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. And there
were seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven
Spirits of God [the complete Spirit of God-the Holy Spirit].
(4:5)
Light is probably the best picture we have of God. Paul brings all three
Persons together under this figure:
For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness who has shone
in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the
face of Jesus Christ.
(2 Corinthians 4:6)
Notice that we have been called out of darkness into His marvelous light. We
today are to walk in light. We have made the error of talking about how we
walk rather than where we walk. When a man walks according to the how, he
always pleases himself, because he can make up his own little rules and say
he is spiritual. It is not how we walk but where we walk that is
all-important. Are we walking in the light of the Word of God?
Every ray of light is pure white, and we always associate that white with
God. You can pass a ray of light through a prism, which will divide it into
three primary colors. These three elementary colors are yellow, red, and
blue. Yellow speaks of the holiness of the Father; red speaks of God the Son
who shed His blood for you and for me; blue speaks of the Holy Spirit, for
blue is the color of truth, and He is the Spirit of truth. You can push the
yellow, red, and blue lights back through the prism and get one white
light-three in one.
I am told that the flowers we see do not have any color whatsoever, that
actually they and everything else are colorless. I look at these
multicolored flowers and am told that although they are colorless, they have
the power to absorb or reject the light rays falling upon them. For example,
the yellow daffodil absorbs all the color rays except yellow, and since it
rejects yellow, I see it as a yellow daffodil! I don't understand that at
all. And if I cannot understand light, do you expect me to understand the
Trinity? Yet this illustration from nature helps me.
Selah
When you look at yourself you see a trinity; when you hear music you hear a
trinity; when you drink water you are drinking a trinity; when you are
walking in light you are walking in a trinity.
We have been treading on the high places-I recognize that. I do not know if
you have gone along with me, but I trust that you have. I hope that somehow
or other the Spirit of God has let you stand on the fringe and see something
of the blessed Trinity. There is nothing more awe-inspiring and wonderful in
the universe. Learning how to get to the moon was a triviality compared to
the privilege of learning, even in our limited capacity, something of the
magnificence of the Trinity.
The Trinity's Plan for Man
Back in the beginning (when I say beginning, I mean before God had created
anything) there was no vast universe as we have today, there were no angels,
there was no creation at all. God was alone. Now consider this: God was
love, yet you cannot have love unless you have an object of love. But there
has always been the Trinity and the love they have for themselves. God the
Father loves the Son, He is careful to tell us that. The Son loves the
Father, He tells us so. The Holy Spirit loves both of them, and because of
His love for them He is in the world today-this sin-stained world-carrying
out their work and His work.
Back in eternity when the Trinity was alone, this great plan by which God is
working today opened up for Him as the best plan. We know now that it meant
He was to have a creature called man and that this little man would lift his
fist in rebellion against his holy God. And his holy God must strike him
down. A holy God would be just and righteous to breathe this little world
out of existence. And, friends, He would not miss it, for He has other
universes bigger and, I think, better than this. Why does He hang on to it?
Because in His plan He wants the fellowship of that man down there in sin.
Perhaps at that time the Father said, "I will have to judge that man." The
Son said, "Because We love him, I'll go down and die for him." The Father
said, "I'll send You." And the Holy Spirit said, "I'll go down afterward,
and though I am blasphemed against and insulted, I shall stay in the world
with that little miserable man and try to bring him back into a relationship
with Us."
This is the reason the Scripture says that Christ was the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world. Friends, the Cross was not an ambulance that
God sent to the scene of an accident. The Cross is not God's emergency
air-raid shelter that He put up hurriedly to meet a surprise attack.
Redemption was in God's great plan at the beginning. According to Galatians
4:4 the Father sent the Son to earth in the fullness of time, and He came
forth-born of a woman, made under the law-that He might redeem those who
were under the law and that He might redeem you today.
The triune God is involved not only in creation but in your redemption and
in my redemption. God the Father loves you; He sent His Son. God the Son
loves you; He died for you. And God the Holy Spirit loves you, for He is now
at your heart's door knocking, wanting to come into your life.
Our triune God! No, you will not understand Him. He would not be God if you
could. But you can bow in adoration and praise and yield that little,
stubborn, rebellious heart to your Redeemer, Jesus Christ.
Heavenly Father, we do come to You, thanking You that You have revealed
Yourself. And yet, O God, when we consider that which You have revealed
concerning Yourself, we find that we are standing on the shore of an
infinite sea. We feel like a little child playing in the sand with a bucket
and a shovel, a little child who knows nothing of those vast shores and that
vast sea. Somehow, by the power of the Holy Spirit, push back the clouds,
open our minds and our hearts to receive You, even the Trinity: the Father,
the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
We thank You today that You are infinitely concerned about us and that You
are engaged in a plan and program to redeem us and bring us to Yourself.
We pray these things in Jesus' name. Amen.
.
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| User: "Bible Bob" |
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| Title: Re: How Can God Exist in Three Persons? |
23 Aug 2007 06:43:00 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:25:47 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
In the following article, noted theologian J. Vernon McGee answers the
question "How Can God Exist in Three Persons?"
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
Carl,
That's easy.
You go down to the local drug dealer and buy a whole bunch of dope,
use it, and imagine all kinds of gods.
There is only ONE God Who is the Father and ONE Son Who is Jesus
Christ. There is no Holy Ghost when verses are translated accurately.
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
.
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| User: "Jim" |
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| Title: Re: How Can God Exist in Three Persons? |
23 Aug 2007 09:49:24 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:25:47 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
In the following article, noted theologian J. Vernon McGee answers the
question "How Can God Exist in Three Persons?"
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
How Can God Exist in Three Persons?
by J. Vernon McGee
The great English poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge, in a conversation with
Robert Browning remarked, "I read all your poetry, but nine-tenths of it I
do not understand." Robert Browning answered him by saying, "Sir, a person
of your caliber ought to be satisfied if he understands one-tenth."
Well, I have spent more than a quarter of a century in serious study of the
Word of God, and I confess to my appalling ignorance in certain areas,
especially in the subject of the Trinity. If you could have met me the year
I graduated from seminary, you would have heard me give absolute answers to
all your questions. But I am unable to do that today. In fact, I would be
content if I understood one-tenth of the great truth concerning our triune
God.
I assure you that with all my heart I believe in the Trinity. I revel and
rejoice in it, believing that it is not only a great truth but also one of
the unique truths of the Christian faith. But I confess that I find it to be
an enigmatic mystery, an inscrutable riddle. I find that it is complicated,
complex, bewildering, and impossible to explain. Why?
One reason is that the Trinity is not geared to this mechanical age.
Tensions and pressures hurry us through life. A cartoonist has pictured a
man sitting in a one-counter restaurant, giving his order to the waitress.
He is saying, "I have to be at work in twenty-three minutes. I want
one-minute oatmeal, three-minute eggs, two-minute bacon, forty-five second
toast, and instant coffee." An age that goes at a pace like that is not an
age that will know very much about the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be
explained in just a few moments. It is doubtful if it can ever be
satisfactorily explained, yet we need to study it carefully.
For several hundred years after the apostles lived, the Trinity was a most
important subject to intelligent men.
McGee says "AFTER" the apostles lived - it is a good thing that is clarified
because nowhere did the apostles teach the man-made term, "Trinity" - or
the pagan idea that God exists in three persons. In fact - the apostle Paul
prophesied that vicious wolves would come in with their heresies after he
departed.
Acts 20:29 (NLT) I know full well that false teachers, like vicious wolves,
will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock.
1 Tim 4:1-2 (NLT) Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times
some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and
teachings that come from demons. {2} These teachers are hypocrites and liars.
They pretend to be religious, but their consciences are dead.
2 Tim 4:3-4 (NLT) For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to
right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers
who will tell them whatever they want to hear. {4} They will reject the truth
and follow strange myths.
2 Tim 3:13-14 (NLT) But evil people and impostors will flourish. They will go
on deceiving others, and they themselves will be deceived. {14} But you must
remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for
you know you can trust those who taught you.
.
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| User: "john w" |
|
| Title: Re: How Can God Exist in Three Persons? |
24 Aug 2007 04:14:36 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:49:24 -0500, Jim <Jim@nospam.com> wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:25:47 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
In the following article, noted theologian J. Vernon McGee answers the
question "How Can God Exist in Three Persons?"
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
How Can God Exist in Three Persons?
by J. Vernon McGee
The great English poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge, in a conversation with
Robert Browning remarked, "I read all your poetry, but nine-tenths of it I
do not understand." Robert Browning answered him by saying, "Sir, a person
of your caliber ought to be satisfied if he understands one-tenth."
Well, I have spent more than a quarter of a century in serious study of the
Word of God, and I confess to my appalling ignorance in certain areas,
especially in the subject of the Trinity. If you could have met me the year
I graduated from seminary, you would have heard me give absolute answers to
all your questions. But I am unable to do that today. In fact, I would be
content if I understood one-tenth of the great truth concerning our triune
God.
I assure you that with all my heart I believe in the Trinity. I revel and
rejoice in it, believing that it is not only a great truth but also one of
the unique truths of the Christian faith. But I confess that I find it to be
an enigmatic mystery, an inscrutable riddle. I find that it is complicated,
complex, bewildering, and impossible to explain. Why?
One reason is that the Trinity is not geared to this mechanical age.
Tensions and pressures hurry us through life. A cartoonist has pictured a
man sitting in a one-counter restaurant, giving his order to the waitress.
He is saying, "I have to be at work in twenty-three minutes. I want
one-minute oatmeal, three-minute eggs, two-minute bacon, forty-five second
toast, and instant coffee." An age that goes at a pace like that is not an
age that will know very much about the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be
explained in just a few moments. It is doubtful if it can ever be
satisfactorily explained, yet we need to study it carefully.
For several hundred years after the apostles lived, the Trinity was a most
important subject to intelligent men.
McGee says "AFTER" the apostles lived - it is a good thing that is clarified
because nowhere did the apostles teach the man-made term, "Trinity" - or
the pagan idea that God exists in three persons.
Actually, though they might not have fully "grasped" the Trinity (God
IS a mystery, and He does not necessarily reveal ALL to EVERYONE, nor
does He need to) there is indication that the apostles (some, anyway)
understood that there was more to God than "Yahweh, the Father."
Tom, for example, declared Jesus "My Lord and my God!" Those are
words reserved for the Father! I could go on, but I think that one
comment by Tom sinks your boat.
In fact - the apostle Paul
prophesied that vicious wolves would come in with their heresies after he
departed.
The teaching of 3 Who are God isn't heresy. Since we find 3 Who are
God throughout the Old Testament if you understand what you are
reading. Who was the God who appeared to the children of Israel as
the pillar of smoke by day, the pillar of fire by night, the God who
guided them in the wilderness? That pillar of smoke/fire was the Holy
Spirit.
Who was the God who appeared to Moses in the "burning bush that was
not consumed?" It was OBVIOUSLY God, since God spoke to Moses from
the bush and commanded him to remove his sandals, "because the ground
you are standing on is holy ground?" That God was the Holy Spirit!
If we have God the Father, and now I've named 3 forms of God the Holy
Spirit from the Old Testament-- if we have 2 Who are God (Father and
Holy Spirit), we already have Two. Three is not a FAR STRETCH from
Two.
And now I have sunk your boat!
john w
Acts 20:29 (NLT) I know full well that false teachers, like vicious wolves,
will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock.
1 Tim 4:1-2 (NLT) Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times
some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and
teachings that come from demons. {2} These teachers are hypocrites and liars.
They pretend to be religious, but their consciences are dead.
2 Tim 4:3-4 (NLT) For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to
right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers
who will tell them whatever they want to hear. {4} They will reject the truth
and follow strange myths.
2 Tim 3:13-14 (NLT) But evil people and impostors will flourish. They will go
on deceiving others, and they themselves will be deceived. {14} But you must
remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for
you know you can trust those who taught you.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim" |
|
| Title: Re: How Can God Exist in Three Persons? |
24 Aug 2007 09:58:04 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:14:36 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:49:24 -0500, Jim <Jim@nospam.com> wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:25:47 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
In the following article, noted theologian J. Vernon McGee answers the
question "How Can God Exist in Three Persons?"
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
How Can God Exist in Three Persons?
by J. Vernon McGee
The great English poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge, in a conversation with
Robert Browning remarked, "I read all your poetry, but nine-tenths of it I
do not understand." Robert Browning answered him by saying, "Sir, a person
of your caliber ought to be satisfied if he understands one-tenth."
Well, I have spent more than a quarter of a century in serious study of the
Word of God, and I confess to my appalling ignorance in certain areas,
especially in the subject of the Trinity. If you could have met me the year
I graduated from seminary, you would have heard me give absolute answers to
all your questions. But I am unable to do that today. In fact, I would be
content if I understood one-tenth of the great truth concerning our triune
God.
I assure you that with all my heart I believe in the Trinity. I revel and
rejoice in it, believing that it is not only a great truth but also one of
the unique truths of the Christian faith. But I confess that I find it to be
an enigmatic mystery, an inscrutable riddle. I find that it is complicated,
complex, bewildering, and impossible to explain. Why?
One reason is that the Trinity is not geared to this mechanical age.
Tensions and pressures hurry us through life. A cartoonist has pictured a
man sitting in a one-counter restaurant, giving his order to the waitress.
He is saying, "I have to be at work in twenty-three minutes. I want
one-minute oatmeal, three-minute eggs, two-minute bacon, forty-five second
toast, and instant coffee." An age that goes at a pace like that is not an
age that will know very much about the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be
explained in just a few moments. It is doubtful if it can ever be
satisfactorily explained, yet we need to study it carefully.
For several hundred years after the apostles lived, the Trinity was a most
important subject to intelligent men.
McGee says "AFTER" the apostles lived - it is a good thing that is clarified
because nowhere did the apostles teach the man-made term, "Trinity" - or
the pagan idea that God exists in three persons.
Actually, though they might not have fully "grasped" the Trinity
They didn't grasp it because it wasn't in existence yet - Paul prophesied
the vicious wolves would come with their heresies after he left.
(God
IS a mystery, and He does not necessarily reveal ALL to EVERYONE, nor
does He need to) there is indication that the apostles (some, anyway)
understood that there was more to God than "Yahweh, the Father."
Tom, for example, declared Jesus "My Lord and my God!" Those are
words reserved for the Father!
Your claim that "My God" excludes the Father only proves you deny God is
the Father - no surprise there.
I could go on, but I think that one
comment by Tom sinks your boat.
On the contrary - it buoys my ship - as you cannot say "My God" without
referring to the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit.
In fact - the apostle Paul
prophesied that vicious wolves would come in with their heresies after he
departed.
The teaching of 3 Who are God isn't heresy. Since we find 3 Who are
God throughout the Old Testament if you understand what you are
reading.
Which only proves you're wise in your own conceit.
Who was the God who appeared to the children of Israel as
the pillar of smoke by day,
Jesus said in John 10:30 that he and his father are one - so it was both of
them that appeared.
the pillar of fire by night, the God who
guided them in the wilderness? That pillar of smoke/fire was the Holy
Spirit.
Who was the God who appeared to Moses in the "burning bush that was
not consumed?" It was OBVIOUSLY God, since God spoke to Moses from
the bush and commanded him to remove his sandals, "because the ground
you are standing on is holy ground?" That God was the Holy Spirit!
If we have God the Father, and now I've named 3 forms of God the Holy
Spirit from the Old Testament-- if we have 2 Who are God (Father and
Holy Spirit), we already have Two. Three is not a FAR STRETCH from
Two.
Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of
His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by
Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
This verse utterly decimates your pagan doctrine that God exists as 3 different
persons - it says the Son is the express image of God's "PERSON" - the term
is singular - NOT plural.
.
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| User: "Bible Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: How Can God Exist in Three Persons? |
24 Aug 2007 11:18:00 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:58:04 -0500, Jim <Jim@nospam.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:14:36 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:49:24 -0500, Jim <Jim@nospam.com> wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:25:47 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
In the following article, noted theologian J. Vernon McGee answers the
question "How Can God Exist in Three Persons?"
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
How Can God Exist in Three Persons?
by J. Vernon McGee
The great English poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge, in a conversation with
Robert Browning remarked, "I read all your poetry, but nine-tenths of it I
do not understand." Robert Browning answered him by saying, "Sir, a person
of your caliber ought to be satisfied if he understands one-tenth."
Well, I have spent more than a quarter of a century in serious study of the
Word of God, and I confess to my appalling ignorance in certain areas,
especially in the subject of the Trinity. If you could have met me the year
I graduated from seminary, you would have heard me give absolute answers to
all your questions. But I am unable to do that today. In fact, I would be
content if I understood one-tenth of the great truth concerning our triune
God.
I assure you that with all my heart I believe in the Trinity. I revel and
rejoice in it, believing that it is not only a great truth but also one of
the unique truths of the Christian faith. But I confess that I find it to be
an enigmatic mystery, an inscrutable riddle. I find that it is complicated,
complex, bewildering, and impossible to explain. Why?
One reason is that the Trinity is not geared to this mechanical age.
Tensions and pressures hurry us through life. A cartoonist has pictured a
man sitting in a one-counter restaurant, giving his order to the waitress.
He is saying, "I have to be at work in twenty-three minutes. I want
one-minute oatmeal, three-minute eggs, two-minute bacon, forty-five second
toast, and instant coffee." An age that goes at a pace like that is not an
age that will know very much about the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be
explained in just a few moments. It is doubtful if it can ever be
satisfactorily explained, yet we need to study it carefully.
For several hundred years after the apostles lived, the Trinity was a most
important subject to intelligent men.
McGee says "AFTER" the apostles lived - it is a good thing that is clarified
because nowhere did the apostles teach the man-made term, "Trinity" - or
the pagan idea that God exists in three persons.
Actually, though they might not have fully "grasped" the Trinity
They didn't grasp it because it wasn't in existence yet - Paul prophesied
the vicious wolves would come with their heresies after he left.
(God
IS a mystery, and He does not necessarily reveal ALL to EVERYONE, nor
does He need to) there is indication that the apostles (some, anyway)
understood that there was more to God than "Yahweh, the Father."
Tom, for example, declared Jesus "My Lord and my God!" Those are
words reserved for the Father!
Your claim that "My God" excludes the Father only proves you deny God is
the Father - no surprise there.
I could go on, but I think that one
comment by Tom sinks your boat.
On the contrary - it buoys my ship - as you cannot say "My God" without
referring to the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit.
In fact - the apostle Paul
prophesied that vicious wolves would come in with their heresies after he
departed.
The teaching of 3 Who are God isn't heresy. Since we find 3 Who are
God throughout the Old Testament if you understand what you are
reading.
Which only proves you're wise in your own conceit.
Who was the God who appeared to the children of Israel as
the pillar of smoke by day,
Jesus said in John 10:30 that he and his father are one - so it was both of
them that appeared.
Hey Jim, I got an idea. How about we quote what you are talking
about in context:
Joh 10:29-36 KJV
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my
Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not;
but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself
God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are
gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the
scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus made it very clear that He had a Father and that father "is
greater than all". Did Jesus except Himself from the all? No. The
word "one" from isos refers to two that are similar; not identical (as
the two lines in an isosceles triangle. So, the line on the right and
the line on the left may be of equal length but are not identical even
though where the lines meet they become one in purpose. One in
purpose is not one in substance. Jesus then said that the Father had
sanctified him. Sanctified means to set apart. If God set Jesus
apart, then he was apart. Jesus said "I am the Son of God"; not, "I
am God."
the pillar of fire by night, the God who
guided them in the wilderness? That pillar of smoke/fire was the Holy
Spirit.
Who was the God who appeared to Moses in the "burning bush that was
not consumed?" It was OBVIOUSLY God, since God spoke to Moses from
the bush and commanded him to remove his sandals, "because the ground
you are standing on is holy ground?" That God was the Holy Spirit!
If we have God the Father, and now I've named 3 forms of God the Holy
Spirit from the Old Testament-- if we have 2 Who are God (Father and
Holy Spirit), we already have Two. Three is not a FAR STRETCH from
Two.
Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of
His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by
Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
This verse utterly decimates your pagan doctrine that God exists as 3 different
persons - it says the Son is the express image of God's "PERSON" - the term
is singular - NOT plural.
It does destroy the doctrine of the Trinity; but also the Oneness
doctrine, too, because it makes it very clear that Jesus sat down on
(in) the right hand (right side) of the Majesty on high. So you got a
real big problem. The preposition "in" from "en" denotes position at
rest and continuance IN the right side; that which is at the right of
God that is not God.
Of course, since you rip passages out of context when you quote them
it is hard for you to read what the Scriptures really say:
Heb 1:1-5 KJV
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past
unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath
appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his
person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had
by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty
on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by
inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son,
this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father,
and he shall be to me a Son?
God spoke by the Son. That makes two "things" identified as two
different "things". God "appointed" the Son. That makes God separate
from, independent of, and superior to the Son and therefore not
identical to the Son. The Son is the express "image" of God; not God.
He is a character, or representation , or figure of; but not God. God
made the Son better than the angels and to do that had to be superior
to both the Son and the angels. God said "Thou art my Son". You say
the Son is God. Who should we believe, you or God?
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
.
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| User: "Carl" |
|
| Title: Re: How Can God Exist in Three Persons? |
24 Aug 2007 11:31:45 PM |
|
|
"Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> wrote in message
news:i50uc39ejijfptstq336htios0mbmjbcjl@4ax.com...
Documented lies and heresies from "Bible Bob" Sowle
[Updated: August 24, 2007 - 1:01pm EDT]
August 24, 2007
"Carl speaks lies, lots of lies against God's saints, and against God's
word." [More slander from "Bible Bob."]
"You [Carl] claim to be an expert at exegesis, hermeneutics, and "Koine"
Greek grammar and syntax." [I've never claimed to be an expert. Once again
"Bible Bob" intentionally misrepresents. I am knowledgeable in some of those
areas to some degree but am willing and able to defer to experts in those
areas when needed.]
"I'll make it easy for you. Here is something from a pamphlet I am working
on. I challenge you to prove it wrong. I challenge you to prove from the
word of God that the following words are false. If you cannot then you will
have proved once and for all that your third person of the trinity is a myth
and that you have been lying to everyone in the newsgroups." [Here's another
"Bible Bob"'s challenge once again. It's a waste of time since anyone who
takes a "Bible Bob challenge" and succeeds as I and many other Christians
have done receive nothing but scorn and ridicule when "Bible Bob" denies
anyone took his challenge and succeeded. Also as I have stated, I am obeying
the scriptures when they teach us to have nothing to do with heretics like
"Bible Bob" yet "Bible Bob", so desperate for attention, begs for me to
accept his challenge. No dice. This text file is a successful answer to one
of his earliest challenges to me which was to document "just one" of his
lies. Well, I've documented dozens and dozens yet "Bible Bob" denies them
all in a spirit of deception.]
"If you cannot prove that the third peson [sic] of the Trinity exists with
the Father and the Son in heaven; then you cannot prove that a person who
does not believe in the Trinity is not saved. Nor, can you prove from the
Scriptures that a non-Trinitarian will burn in hell. It is you [Carl] who
say that non-Trinitarians are not saved and that they will burn in hell." [I've
already proven the Bible teaches the Trinity as has numerous other
Christians. "Bible Bob" once again tries to twist what the Trinity is into
something it is not in order to tear it down. This is called a "straw man
argument" and is a logical fallacy. It is also a dishonest tactic on "Bible
Bob"'s part. Also please note that "Bible Bob" seems to think that God the
Father is limited to only being in heaven. I guess "Bible Bob" denies the
omnipresence of God as well. "Bible Bob" sure tries to limit what God can
do. I've already proven the Bible teaches the Trinity as has many other
Christians. But "Bible Bob" is in a state of denial that can only be caused
by satanic forces. Also "Bible Bob" is dishonestly attributing something to
me that I never, ever wrote. Please note he claims I said something {"It is
you [Carl] who say that non-Trinitarians are not saved and that they will
burn in hell."} but provides no specific example while on the other hand I
am documenting dozens and dozens of examples of malicious lies and heresies
by "Bible Bob" with his own words. I document the dates each were said so
anyone can verify them via Google Usenet search
(http://groups.google.com/).]
In absolute desperation, "Bible Bob" has begun a thread with the title:
"Carl McCaskey Defends and Promotes the Murder of Christians" which is
slander of the lowest and most vile order and completely shows how evil and
wicked "Bible Bob" truly is. How anyone can defend "Bible Bob" at this point
is truly mind-boggling.
"The doctrine of the Trinity is the product of the emperor Constantine and
men who may or may not have been disciples of Jesus Christ who submitted
themselves to an emperor clothed in gold who sat upon a gold throne." [As I
have shown with the words of early church fathers as far back as the mid
first century {long before Constantine} the teaching of God the Father, God
the Son and God the Holy Spirit was considered Biblical truth before
Constantine. The tired and oft-refuted myth that the concept of the Trinity
didn't exist until the time of Constantine is been proven conclusively to be
false. So "Bible Bob" choose to espouse a clearly debunked falsehood shows
once again the dishonest nature of "Bible Bob."]
"Does Carl not show us day after day how he worships and serves men-gods
through his posts of articles by men; articles that he is not qualified to
verify as true because he lacks the skills and the maturity in Crhist [sic]
to make righteous judgements [sic]." [First off a minor grammatical note:
there should be a question mark at the end of that sentence by "Bible Bob."
But being that it's dishonesty from "Bible Bob" in the first place, another
example of a slanderous smear attempt, it really doesn't matter. I have
never worshipped what "Bible Bob" calls "men-gods" nor do I serve
"men-gods." I worship and serve the one true God, the God of Abraham and
Isaac. The sermons, lessons, and articles I post are from Christians all of
whom are much more qualified to write upon the topics presented than "Bible
Bob" who has been shown and proven to be nothing but an unGodly heretic.]
"Does not Carl day after day by the words he posts and his responses to
others indicate that one must believe what he demands or lose salvation and
burn in hell?" [Another dishonest question from "Bible Bob." All I have
presented has been Biblical truth. The Word of God has always been the
absolute center and absolute focus of the topics that I have presented
either through my own words or the sermons, lessons, and articles of other
Christians. Again "Bible Bob" is dishonestly attributing something to me
that I never, ever wrote.]
"Why doesn't Carl understand my speech?" [I do. It's the speech of an
unclean, malicious, slanderous, arrogant, wicked heretic by the name of
Robert "Bible Bob" Sowle. It is speech documented in this text file complete
with dates so anyone may verify them via Google Usenet search
(http://groups.google.com/). It is speech the Bible says is unclean and
wicked. It speech from "Bible Bob" that self-condemns according to the
Bible.]
"Am I not about the only one on the groups (aside from Weatherly) that has
shown an interest in Carl's well being?" [Actually John Weatherly has shown
interest in my well being while it become painfully obvious that "Bible Bob"
doesn't but wants to put on a dog-and-pony show fraudulently claiming he
cares about my well-being yet regularly spews forth unclean and unGodly
words of slander, malice, arrogance, wickedness, etc. which clearly
contradict his disingenuous claim here. Furthermore, I have received ample
support not only from Mr. Weatherly but from many others over the years both
on Usenet as well as in email. However "Bible Bob" shuts his eyes to this
little fact because it disproves his false notions once again.]
"Who else has taken the time to help Carl see where he is error so that he
can repent and become profitable to Christ?" [The fact of the matter is
"Bible Bob" hasn't shown errors on my part. Instead he attacks in a
malicious manner in hopes I will go away so he may deceive more people with
his heresies. However barring any unforeseen circumstances, I'm not going
anywhere and will continue to document "Bible Bob"'s lies and heresies as a
warning to other Christians. Warning other Christians about heretics and
heresies is actually condoned and encouraged in scripture so what I am doing
with this text file as well as posting articles, sermons, and lessons by
Christians is indeed profitable to Christ.]
"When Carl speaks what does he speak? He speaks of murder." [More slander
from "Bible Bob" of the lowest and vilest form. My Christian brethren, take
note of "Bible Bob"'s wickedness and avoid him in accordance with
scripture.]
"According to Carl one that does not believe what he orders people to
believe is
subject to the wrath." [Again, "Bible Bob" intentionally misrepresents what
I have posted. He includes absolutely no specific quotes to support his
claim. Furthermore, I have never ordered people to believe anything. What I
have done is present Biblical truth and what the Bible says on topics. The
same goes for all the sermons, lessons, and articles that I have posted
written by other Christians.]
"According to Carl, those who do not obey him or the doctrines of his
man-gods, are not saved and are to be burned alive in the lake of fire."
[Again, "Bible Bob" intentionally misrepresents what I have posted. He
includes absolutely no specific quotes to support his claim. Furthermore, I
have never demanded nor requested anyone obey me. What I have done is
present Biblical truth and what the Bible says on topics. The same goes for
all the sermons, lessons, and articles that I have posted written by other
Christians.]
"Carl, by his false doctrines, proclaims that God is a mass murderer and
that Jesus Christ was a con artist who duped people with docrines that are
not as good and proper as those Carl preaches for his man-gods." [This claim
by "Bible Bob" not only shows his wicked dishonesty but how desperate "Bible
Bob" is in his attempts to discredit me. However the more he engages in this
the more evil he becomes. I never proclaimed nor implied God is a mass
murderer nor have I proclaimed nor implied that Jesus Christ was a con
artist. These are lies by "Bible Bob."]
"Carl preaches about heretics and false prophets and false teachers while
demonstarting that he does not even know what they really are." [Actually I've
not only demonstrated and explained quite clearly what the Bible teaches
about heresies and heretics, I as well as many other Christians have exposed
"Bible Bob"'s heresies and shown him to be a heretic. As documented by this
text file, "Bible Bob" can only respond with lies, arrogance and other forms
of evil.]
"God is love and the Father of those He loves; yet Carl teaches that the
loving Father is a murderer of His own children who will burn them alive in
a lake of fire." [I have never taught nor proclaimed nor implied that God is
a murderer of any sort. Again this is a lie from "Bible Bob" of the lowest
and vilest form.]
"Carl accuses God of being a murderer yet the word of God judges Carl as a
man that promotes murder." [I have never taught nor proclaimed nor implied
that God is a murderer of any sort. Again this is a lie from "Bible Bob" of
the lowest and vilest form. Furthermore, the Bible is not judging me as one
who promotes murder since I have never done so. More "Bible Bob" dishonesty.
Here "Bible Bob" acts as though he is a spokesperson for God (e.g. - a
prophet of God) yet by his heresies, lies, arrogance and other wickedness,
"Bible Bob" shows that he has a wicked, unclean heart devoid of the Holy
Spirit. It's not that the Holy Spirit doesn't want to be in "Bible Bob"'s
heart, it's that "Bible Bob" is rejecting the Holy Spirit at the moment. I
sincerely hope this is more akin of the prodigal son and that one day "Bible
Bob" will accept the Holy Spirit in his heart because when that happens,
"Bible Bob" will also reject his words of slander, deceit, wickedness, and
other uncleanliness.]
[The final two paragraphs from "Bible Bob" on this are quite telling:]
"Don't wait for God to send an email to Carl to correct him. That will not
happen because (1) God only communicates with those who are in fellowship
with him and (2) God gave the ministry and word of reconciliation to us to
use as ambassadors for Christ to reconcile men to God.
God and the angels do not have the word and ministry of reconciliation
because it was given to us. For you to hold back from manifesting the love
necessary to correct Carl is not only cowardly; but a denial of your
responsibilities to God and the Lord Jesus Christ."
[I welcome correction from my Christian brethren. I have never rejected it.
I embrace communication with Christians. However for "Bible Bob" to claim
that God does not communicate with me because I am not in fellowship with
God implies that somehow "Bible Bob" is receiving direct divine information
from God. However since I am in fellowship with God and He is richly
blessing my life each and every day in ways "Bible Bob" won't accept shows
that "Bible Bob" is once again wrong. Secondly, it's ironic as well as
hypocricital of "Bible Bob" at the same time since he refuses correction at
almost every instance. So for him to be requesting correction of others
while refusing it himself is a strong example of someone trying to take the
speck out of someone else's eye while the beam remain in his eye.]
---
August 23, 2007
"So you recognize that Carl is a wolf in sheep's clothing that teaches false
doctrines and practices character assassination [sic]." [Again more
malicious slander from "Bible Bob." What's ironic is that of which "Bible
Bob" accuses me is of which "Bible Bob" has been (shown through methodical
documentation) proven guilty.]
"Carl is a well known vindictive liar and character assassin that is best
described by the following verse which described emasculated effeminates
like Carl:" [And "Bible Bob" was accusing me of engaging in "character
assassination"? Although there's not one shred of evidence that I have
engaged in the practice, this response by "Bible Bob" is a very clear
attempt at character assassination as well hypocrisy. Furthermore, the words
of "Bible Bob" as documented by this text file as well as via Google Usenet
newsgroup searches (http://groups.google.com/) proves beyond a shadow of a
doubt that "Bible Bob" habitually engages in malicious attacks against those
not only who disagree with him but also those who have proven many of the
doctrines he teaches and preaches to be unbiblical and therefore
counterfeit.]
"Carl made it very clear that he is a sick person, a person so obsessed by
oppressed by the mean ole BB that he had to runbing [sic] and begging for
help rather than being an honest man and trying to communicate with BB who
everybody knows is a really nice modest guy that would have been more than
willing to explain to Carl what Carl did not understand [sic]." [What "Bible
Bob" is referring to is the fact that I sent three of his posts centering on
Koine Greek to several legitimate known scholars of Biblical Koine Greek.
The three that have responded thus far have all concurred that "Bible Bob"'s
demonstrated grasp of Koine Greek and its grammar is very poor and as one of
them said it is "all over the map." I've never claimed to be an expert in
Koine Greek but I do defer to those whom demonstrated a high level of
knowledge concerning it. "Bible Bob" has shown he is not among those with a
high level of knowledge concerning it. In fact, none of the three whom have
gotten back to me on the articles I submitted to them written by "Bible Bob"
think highly of what "Bible Bob" wrote. They pretty much concurred that it
would take far too long to address the numerous errors and fabrications
contained within those "Bible Bob" articles. On a different note, in "Bible
Bob"'s response he once again engages in the "character assassination"
techniques that he so vehemently objects to when he perceives it from
others. Highly hypocritical of "Bible Bob" once again.]
"Not only did Carl tell his usual lies but he also lied to the men he says
he contacted concerning BB. Carl gave himself away (as usual) by trying to
show everybody he knows important people and misrepresenting what they
said." [Is "Bible Bob" pretending to be psychic now? How does he think he
knows what I sent to the Biblical language experts? How does he think he
knows what I wrote in my emails to those gentlemen? Silly, silly "Bible
Bob." I never said I knew any of these gentlement personally. "Bible Bob"'s
dishonestly rears its ugly head once again. What I did was email three of
"Bible Bob"'s articles verbatim and in complete form as they appeared on
Usenet that centered on what "Bible Bob" considers to be correct knowledge
of Biblical Koine Greek. Of the several individuals I emailed, three have
responded thus far and all three concur that "Bible Bob" is no Greek
scholar. In fact they don't consider "Bible Bob" knowledgable of Koine Greek
at all. One of the gentlemen wondered where "Bible Bob" found some of the
grammatical rules he was using since they violated known and recognized
rules of Koine Greek grammar. In short, "Bible Bob" is no more to be trusted
in his interpretations of Koine Greek than a grocery clerk is to be trusted
to perform brain surgery.]
"Bible Bob has never used the words "Koine Greek" to refer to the Greek
texts except in rebuttals to Carl's lies. Every Greek Grammar rule that BB
wrtoes comes directly from the definitions from Greek Grammar Books." [The
Greek used in the New Testament is referred to as Koine (or common) Greek.
Whether or not "Bible Bob" uses the term is irrelevant. His so-called
teachings of the New Testament Greek is ipso facto teachings of Koine Greek.
"Bible Bob" is trying to throw out a red herring here. Secondly, as three
{thus far} recognized Biblical Greek language experts have told me, "Bible
Bob"'s demonstrated knowledge of Koine Greek is poor and "all over the map."
One told me that "Bible Bob"'s errors demonstrated violations of several
rules of grammar of Koine Greek and he also pointed out that some of "Bible
Bob"'s grammatical rules probably were invented by "Bible Bob" because they
didn't comply with any recognized rule of Koine Greek grammar. So "Bible
Bob" may be trying to learn from some books, but his applications have been
woefully inadequate. So "Bible Bob" has been proven once again to be a fraud
and a heretic. One Godly gentlemen who is a Professor of New Testament and
Greek at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary told me that "Bible
Bob"'s "language arguments only are used to try to bolster already drawn
conclusions. Therefore, to attempt to engage the argument at the language
level is a waste of time and a diversion from the real argument." Finally,
it's quite strange and bizarre for someone to continually speak of
themselves in the third person.]
"Oh, and when you [Carl] are man enough to be a man and speak to me one on
one; feel free to do so." [And witness "Bible Bob" attempting to lure me
into violating Biblical instruction which teaches Christians not to have
anything to do with heretics like "Bible Bob" {Titus 3:9-11}]
"Bible Bob has absolutely never said he had expertise in Koine Greek. Never,
as is in not even once." [This is a dishonest claim by "Bible Bob" because
his attempts to teach Koine Greek grammar and rules and his claims that his
teachings are better than recognized scholars (ex. - "You would be better
off reading and following my teachings than the teachings of the sects
because mine are more accurate." {"Bible Bob",June 30, 2007}) give evidence
that he does indeed consider himself to have an expertise in Koine Greek.
"Bible Bob"'s actions contradict his denial. He obviously does consider his
knowledge of Koine Greek {e.g. - "my teachings"} to be superior to that of
recognized Greek scholars {e.g. - "teachings of the sects"}. However as it
has been explained to me by three recognized Greek language scholars whom I
can safely consider to be experts, "Bible Bob" clearly does not demonstrate
a good grasp of Koine Greek and its proper grammatical rules and usage.]
"You [Carl] are also lying about the New Orleans Baptist Cemetary [sic] guy.
You [Carl] have no material for him to examine." [Actually I sent three
different articles that were written by "Bible Bob" {"Trinitarian Sorcery",
"How Trinitarians Deceive With The Bible", and "How Trinitarians Deceive"}
to several Biblical Greek language scholars at three different Christian
seminaries. Thus far, three have gotten back with me with responses, all of
whom happen to be professors at the New Orleans Baptist Theological
Seminary, a very well-known and respected school. But "Bible Bob" engages in
false accusation once again. Typical "Bible Bob" dishonesty T.]
"You haven't the skills necessary to read the Bible or even comprehend the
message , so you attack the messenger instead." [Another example of "Bible
Bob" dishonesty T as well as another attempt at a smear. God told us
Christians that such words of malice like those from "Bible Bob" show an
unclean heart. I haven't needed to attack "Bible Bob." His own words turn on
him. I just have been presenting them in a documented, organized form so
when he denies making certain statements, people can come forward with
proof.]
"You [Carl] go down to the local drug dealer and buy a whole bunch of dope,
use it, and imagine all kinds of gods." [Typical "Bible Bob" smear attempt.
And he complains if he perceives someone attempting to assassinate his
character?!? What a HUGE hypocrite "Bible Bob" is!]
"There is no Holy Ghost when verses are translated accurately." [Actually
when the verses are translated accurately, they do indeed teach not only the
existence of the Holy Spirit but the deity of the Holy Spirit as well.
"Bible Bob" has been exposed by Koine Greek scholars to be unable and/or
unwilling to translate verses accurately.]
"You [Carl] ought to strongly recommend to yourself that you get a life."
[This ad hominem is an indication of the growing desperation of "Bible
Bob."]
"Well, Carl, the fact is that you do lie a lot. You also make lots and lots
of false charges which you never provide any supporting evidence for. Carl
says, it and that's good enough for Carl. The problem is that you lack of
maturity prevents you from understanding that just because you think or say
something does not mean it is true." [Again, "Bible Bob" falsely accuses me
of lying without any proof nor documentation nor example. Simply another
smear tactic and an example of the same sort of character assassination
attempt that "Bible Bob" abhors. Apparently "Bible Bob" believes it's okay
for him to do but not okay for others. This is an example of hypocrisy of
"Bible Bob." In regards to his accusation that I "make lots and lots of
false charges which you never provide any supporting evidence for" - this is
patently absurd for this very text files documents dozens upon dozens
examples of lies, deceptions, heresies, maliciousness, etc. committed by one
Robert "Bible Bob" Sowle. The document, filled with "Bible Bob"'s own words
speaks for itself. This dishonesty in the face of proof by "Bible Bob" is
yet another example of his desperation. Also please note that "Bible Bob"
claims that I lack maturity yet "Bible Bob" childishly changes the header
with an intentionally misspelling of my name as if doing so would anger me
or cause me some amount of stress. I recognize it for what it is, a
desperate, childish act from a desperate, childish individual known as
"Bible Bob."]
"If you were to following the Bibical [sic] instructions on how to deal with
a heretic you would have to stop fellowshipping with yourself." [Since I
have taught nor espouse any heresies, "Bible Bob"'s admonition is rendered
moot. What's funny is that for weeks, "Bible Bob" kept claiming that the
Bible didn't teach that we were do have nothing to do with heretics but when
it suits "Bible Bob"'s purpose he suddenly reverses direction and espouses
that the Bible indeed DOES teach that we Christians are to have nothing to
do with heretics. My Christian brethren, please note the double mindedness
of "Bible Bob."]
"Unlike Carl McCasky who pretends to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, I try to
be one and for that reason can not lie against Carl." [Not only is this yet
another smear attempt by "Bible Bob" his claim that he "can not lie against
Carl" has been proven to be a lie in of itself due to the dozens upon dozens
of lies he has told against me. This text file documents many of them.]
"But I can use hyperbole and comparision if the comparison represents a
genuine aspect of Carl's life." [This isn't the first time that "Bible Bob"
calls his lies "hyperbole." Apparently he is unable to differentiate between
his own lies and true hyperbole. Fortunately reasonable people see through
this fraudulent claim of "Bible Bob"'s.]
"Carl is the big lie and stick to it lie teller who uses Adolf Hitler's Big
Lie philosophy." [Once again "Bible Bob" attempts character assassination by
attempting to associate me with Nazism. This just shows how desperate "Bible
Bob" is and how low he will stoop to try to smear others.]
"Carl's behavior is also much like that described for the man below.
Joseph Raymond McCarthy (November 14, 1908 - May 2, 1957)" [If "Bible Bob"
weren't being serious this would be hysterically funny. But "Bible Bob" will
use any smear he can create. This maliciousness of "Bible Bob" is clearly no
a Godly thing to do and when he claims that he tries to be a "disciple of
Jesus Christ" yet willfully and regularly engages in malicious acts of
slander, deceit, hatred and other unclean things, he only shows that he is
once again being disingenuous in his claim of trying to be a "disciple of
Jesus Christ." Instead "Bible Bob" shows that he has a unclean, wicked heart
devoid of the Holy Spirit.]
"Hyperbole or not, those of you reading this who laugh at or tolerate his
behavior are not helping him [Carl]." [My behavior is just fine. I am merely
warning others of the proven heretic known as Robert "Bible Bob" Sowle.
Furthermore, "Bible Bob" still calls his deception "hyperbole" showing once
again typical "Bible Bob" dishonesty T.]
"It is sad that those of you of the same religion as Carl do not reprove or
rebuke him." ["Bible Bob" just can't bring himself to admit that I am
Christian nor that I am part of a Christian family.]
"It seems to me that you should take your own trash out of the church and
not expect people from other groups to do it for you." [Again "Bible Bob"
engages in ad hominem by referring to me as "trash." More evidence of "Bible
Bob"'s unclean heart.]
"It would seem to me that no Baptist or Methodist in their right mind would
openly support his wrong behavior." [Actually, warning other Christians
about a deceptive heretic such as "Bible Bob" is something that the Bible
teaches us Christians to do. It is right behavior. It's the heretic that
calls it "wrong behavior."]
"What's even sadder that the only Baptist that seems to be able to manifest
enough courage to call Carl on his behavior is the one you guys think is
nuts. That leads me to think that John Weatherly is the only sane one
amongst you." [Well, John Weatherly has given me his advice in a loving
manner and hasn't gone into ad hominem, slander, etc. the way "Bible Bob"
has been doing yet "Bible Bob" continues to attack John Weatherly but now
thinks he is the only sane one therefore "Bible Bob" is attempting to smear
others strictly on the basis that those others won't do what "Bible Bob"
demands. What arrogance on the part of "Bible Bob"!]
"You are not a very good truth teller." [Actually I'm a pretty decent truth
teller. I've written and presented Gospel Truth. I exposed the lies and
heresies of Robert "Bible Bob" Sowle from "Bible Bob"'s own words. Pretty
good truth telling when the truth is well documented as I have done. I have
been very Bereanic in my truth telling. However what is truth is that "Bible
Bob" is the one who is the documented one who is "not a very good truth
teller."]
"Carl McCasky pretends to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, but behaves more
like the Philistine Goliath than any one I can think of." [As one who abhors
"character assassination" "Bible Bob" certainly employs it often in a
hypocritical fashion.]
"Carl lies day and day out making false unsupported allegations against a
'David' ands the children of God." [Now "Bible Bob" equates himself to
David? What sheer unadulterated arrogance! Is such arrogance typical of
someone who tries to be "a disciple of Jesus Christ"? Is such an attempt at
character assassination typical of someone who tries to be "a disciple of
Jesus Christ"? Of course not! This shows "Bible Bob"'s double mindedness.]
"I on the other hand try to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ and
cannot due [sic] the evil that Carl is addicted to." [This is an example of
"Bible Bob" calling evil good when he engages in malicious slander yet keeps
claiming to be a disciple of Jesus. This is just plain pathetic. God taught
us Christians that heretics like "Bible Bob" are self-condemned by their own
words. This proves God right once again. Like God needs proof that He's
right.]
"Enter Carl (a man after Satan's own heart):" ["Bible Bob" hereby implies
that I am not saved. I am so glad that God's salvation has come by His Grace
through my faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. "Bible Bob" falsely
accuses so many people that he shows an unclean heart with just about every
post he writes.]
"Enters BB (a man after God's own heart)" [God abhors "Bible Bob"'s prideful
boast here. God abhors "Bible Bob"'s willful deceptions. God commands us
Christians to abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
(Romans 12:9) So as long as "Bible Bob" willfully sins and continues to
grieve the Holy Spirit, he remains NOT "a man after God's own heart."]
"You [Carl] strike out and do all in your power to maime [sic] and kill just
like the serpent your behavior tells everyone you work for." [Now "Bible
Bob" is falsely accusing me of violent behavior. Typical "Bible Bob"
dishonesty T.]
"You [Carl] do not overcome evil with good; you [Carl] work hard to overcome
good with evil." [Another lie from "Bible Bob."]
---
August 19, 2007
"Please don't have a heart attack or a stroke over such a simple thing as
getting honest. Just get honest and I am sure your blood pressure will go
down and your sanity will return." [Interesting how "Bible Bob" engages in
straw man tactics off the bat. My blood pressure is fine without medication
of any kind.]
"You continue to whine about the fact that I did not quote 100% of the
paragraph your wrote about Glenn." [Again, untrue. A "Bible Bob" attempt at
misrepresentation. The fact remains and is documented in this text file that
"Bible Bob" intentionally took a PARTIAL quote OUT OF CONTEXT and attempted
to misrepresent what I posted by twisting the PARTIAL & OUT OF CONTEXT quote
into something that was not said, written nor implied. This is yet another
example of blatant deception by "Bible Bob." Furthermore it's hypocritical
on "Bible Bob"'s part to even continue this especially since he posted his
"whine" about his perception that someone was misrepresenting something he
posted (also documented within this text file).]
"Your whining and attempt to draw attention from your sin by accusing me of
a in I did not commit is both devilish and immature." ["Bible Bob"'s lies
and heresies are properly documented in this text file. His misquoting me by
using an OUT OF CONTEXT, PARTIAL quote is properly documented in this text
file. Therefore, his denial of what has been documented is in of itself
another sinful lie by "Bible Bob."]
"You are not documenting lies by me. You are documenting your own lies and
showing everyone how rattled, out of control, desperate, and lost you are."
[The text file is a accurate and thorough documentation of many attempts at
deception and false teachings by one Robert "Bible Bob" Sowle. The examples
of Sowle's dishonesty are compiled here as a result of Sowle's challenge to
me to document "even one of [his] lies." I took his challenge and began
compiling clear examples of "Bible Bob"'s lies, slanders, deceit, and other
sinful, unGodly words and deeds. So this claim of "Bible Bob"'s is in of
itself an attempt at deception. How "Bible Bob" can be so much in denial
when the evidence is so clear is beyond me. However this text file serves as
a warning for those entering into discussions with the heretic known as
Robert "Bible Bob" Sowle.]
"I think what you just did is called blasphemy against the holy spirit."
["Bible Bob" thinks wrongly once again for I did no such thing. Please also
note "Bible Bob"'s continued lower case spelling of the Holy Spirit who
according to the Bible is the third person of the Trinity. "Bible Bob"
denies essential doctrines of the Christian faith.]
"On many occassions [sic] I have stated that Jesus Christ is my Lord and
Savior. There is nothing to accept because the confession took place in
1976. You, without evidence to the contrary, say that I am not saved."
[First of all, the Jesus Christ "Bible Bob" worships is NOT the Jesus Christ
of the Bible but "a god" {"Bible Bob" has referred to Jesus Christ as "a
god" on more than one occasion - clearly unbiblical and heretical.}. This
false Jesus Christ of "Bible Bob"'s is one with no deity according to "Bible
Bob" because he denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Secondly I have never made
any statement one way or the other concerning "Bible Bob" and where he is
saved or not. Only Jehovah God knows for certain. All we Christians can go
by is what is within "Bible Bob"'s heart and that is expressed by his words
and deeds. Since he regularly engages in deception, slander, malice,
misrepresentations, arrogance and other unGodly, sinful things as evidenced
by his Usenet posts {many of which are documented in this text file} he
condemns himself by his own words and shows, according to scripture, that he
does not have the Holy Spirit in his heart. I will state unequivocally that
"Bible Bob" is a heretic who teaches false doctrines and as such he condemns
himself as the Holy Scriptures teach.]
"Then you blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Oh yes you did! Because you
said "Because Satan has hardened "Bible Bob"'s heart and darkened it since
it is devoid of the Holy Spirit." which is nothing less than your denial of
the power of holy spirit." [Pointing out that "Bible Bob"'s words of malice,
deceit, arrogance, etc. show that he has a wicked heart devoid of the Holy
Spirit is quite scriptural and is not blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
"Bible Bob" has to twist scripture beyond a pretzel to try to reach that
conclusion. But this is just another example of the heretical nature of
"Bible Bob." Furthermore, pointing out that "Bible Bob"'s words of hatred,
deceit, wickedness, etc. show he does not have the Holy Spirit in his heart
comes from Biblical instruction and merely indicates that thus far, "Bible
Bob" has rejected the Holy Spirit (which "Bible Bob" continues to refer to
in lower case thereby indicating his denial of the Biblical Holy Spirit and
his embracing of a "holy spirit" that is of his own design). I have never
denied the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of the Bible, not the
"holy spirit" of "Bible Bob"'s which is a counterfeit.]
"To you God is powerless to save me." [Another intentional misrepresentation
by "Bible Bob" in a vain and malicious attempt at smear. I pray for "Bible
Bob" in hopes he will allow God to enter his life and I ask my Christian
brethren to pray for "Bible Bob" as well. God isn't going to force "Bible
Bob" to come to Him. Salvation is and always has been a gift freely given in
grace by God. Gifts are never FORCED upon people. I know that quite well.]
"You need to get your hatred under control." [Once again, "Bible Bob," the
hater, falsely accuses someone of hatred. However as evidenced by the posts
from "Bible Bob" it is he who has been showing malicious, sinful hatred.]
"You seem to think that you have successfully kicked God off the throne and
have taken over as God." [What a paranoid and non sequiturial thing for
"Bible Bob" to claim. More "Bible Bob" dishonesty T.]
"Want more evidence [sic] you are a liar. You said:
'and abandon the heresies he currently embraces as well as the
deceptions he espouses'
Yet, you did not prove one nor have you been able to prove even one
heresy." [Actually I've proven and documented several heresies of "Bible
Bob"'s such as "Bible Bob"'s denial of the deity of Jesus Christ, "Bible
Bob"'s denial of the Trinity, "Bible Bob"'s false teachings concerning the
Holy Spirit. And others. But "Bible Bob" is in denial of these things all of
which can been easily looked up on Google newsgroups
(http://groups.google.com/). Since he kept denying my points and accusing me
of not being scholarly enough for him, I posted sermons, lessons and
articles by many learned men of God all of whom refuted "Bible Bob" not only
via sola scriptura but historically (showing church fathers teaching the
Trinity as far back as early to mid 1st century), archaeologically,
medically and other methods. Basically, "Bible Bob" has been thoroughly
refuted not only by myself but many other Christians who hold onto Biblical
orthodoxy rather than the heresies "Bible Bob" espouses. And from time to
time, "Bible Bob" comes back with his very weak "you never proved anything"
whine which is disproven whenever reasonable people actually bother to
research "Bible Bob"'s history.]
"Dummy! If I am to fellowship with "other" Christians, then I must be a
Christian." [Ahhh . now childish name calling from "Bible Bob." Also his
very weak attempt at semantics is lame. When I referred to "other
Christians" I was referring to Christians OTHER than myself and the ones on
Usenet that have addressed "Bible Bob" over the years. I attempted to make
it clear that he needs to fellowship with Christians in a physical manner
rather then electronically {hence "other Christians"}. As far as I can tell,
"Bible Bob" has never admitted nor told of any regular meetings with
Christians (e.g. - fellowshipping) as instructed by the Holy Scriptures.
Rather, "Bible Bob" has given the impression that he is independent and does
not belong to any "church," "denomination," "sect" or whatever word he
chooses to use this week. This is very suspicious.]
"Dummy! If I am a Christian (which I am) then you in your own words called
yourself a liar when you said 'Because Satan has hardened "Bible Bob"'s
heart and darkened it since it is devoid of the Holy Spirit. I pray that
"Bible Bob" will one day accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and
abandon the heresies he currently embraces as well as the deceptions he
espouses.'" [See the entry directly above. Furthermore, it is "Bible Bob"'s
words that condemn himself as one with a wicked heart devoid of the Holy
Spirit. The Bible clearly teaches that if one truly has the Holy Spirit in
their hearts, their fruit will be good but evil words like "Bible Bob"
regularly spews forth shows a hardened, wicked heart. This is according to
scripture, folks, not me. I'm just pointing out what God says about "Bible
Bob"'s words, his malicious slanders and lies and what it indicates about
himself. It seems to me that "Bible Bob" has a major beef with God because
God is telling us in scripture (and "Bible Bob" is demonstrating it via the
vile, unGodly, sinful words in his posts) that "Bible Bob" is a
self-condemned, wicked individual. Look it up for yourself!]
"His dillusions [sic] make him feel god like, indestructible which is a
symptom of schizophrenia [sic]." [Not a response nor reference to me this
time, but I find it interesting that "Bible Bob" has no qualifications to
make such a diagnosis nor medical conclusion. I find it just another example
of "Bible Bob" arrogance T.]
---
August 18, 2007
"You [Carl] would agree with the devil (and have been agreeing with the
devil tonight) so long as they speak against me so that you can sporing
[sic] board off their comment into a bunch of your lies." [Once again "Bible
Bob" attacks me and others for warning people of "Bible Bob" heresies. As
usual, he uses his typical smear tactics.]
"Did you notice that chuck, like you, does what so many fakes do; made an
assertion with nothing to back it up. A nonspecific assertion at that. Not
even stating what essential Christian belief it is that I deny. The trinity
is not an essential belief according to the Scriptures. That is a tradition
of men a pharisitical belief of unlearned hyperreligious fundamentalists."
[And here we have "Bible Bob" admitting he denies the essential Biblical
doctrine of the Trinity and in the process intentionally misrepresenting
what the Bible teaches.]
"So far tonight, you a trinitarian have banded with a Oneness person you
hate because of his religion and now with a woman whose lifestyle you hate
all so that you can manifest hate towards me. Another indicator of the
spirit that motivates you." [Again "Bible Bob" is intentionally
misrepresenting. I pointed out that "Bible Bob" is a heretic according to
the false teachings he espouses. Just because "a Oneness person" and another
also see that fact does not mean I agree with them on all things.
Furthermore, "Bible Bob" once again tries to portray me as filled with hate.
In this response by "Bible Bob" he accuses me of hating "a Oneness person"
and a woman and also "Bible Bob." I hate none of these people regardless of
whether I agree with them or not. Nothing in my words are of a hateful
nature. What I do hate is "Bible Bob"'s false doctrines, slander, lies and
malice all of which are unGodly and abhorrent in God's eyes. We are taught
to hate the sin and not the sinner and that's exactly what I have been doing
and continue to do. I actually pray for "Bible Bob."]
"I was not joking and I was not being mean when I told you that you needed
to get honest with God. Look how low you have stooped since those days."
[This response by "Bible Bob" was aimed at someone else but notice how
appropriate the advice is for "Bible Bob" to take. He needs to get "honest
with God" because he teaches false doctrine and his words & deeds are of a
decidedly unchristian nature according to scriptures. As documented in this
text file, "Bible Bob" has indeed stooped low in his words and deeds
attacking others with deceit, malice, arrogance, etc.]
"Yes, I reversed the verses, for the sake of emphasizing that the reason you
are foolish laden with sins is because your form of godliness is a
counterfeit [sic]." [Interesting that "Bible Bob" accuses someone else of
having a counterfeit form of "godliness" {please note "Bible Bob"
intentionally using a lower case spelling} when his exhibitions on Usenet
show a counterfeit form of Godliness. He attempts to put on a show of
Godliness a la the Pharisees but his words and deeds expose him as an
ungodly individual posing as a righteous Christian. God warned us that false
teachers like "Bible Bob" would try to disguise themselves in sheep's
clothing but inward are actually ravenous wolves. I urge my Christian
brethren to take heed of the evidence within this text file of "Bible Bob"'s
words and deeds and take note that he is no man of God but a heretic
attempting to lead even the elect astray.]
"I do not belong to any religious group. None as in zero." [And since
"Bible Bob" denies several essential Christian doctrines and teaches falsely
he does not belong to Christianity either. "Bible Bob" is the founder, sole
member and chief priest of the "Church of 'Bible Bob'" TM. In his church, he
is the sole authority according to "Bible Bob" and if anyone exposes his
errors, they will be attacked, smeared and lied about. According to "Bible
Bob" his teachings are better than anyone else and all other teachers are
wrong. That is the church of "Bible Bob", a church without the one true God,
a church without Jesus Christ (God manifest in flesh, the second person of
the Trinity), a church without the Holy Spirit (who is the third person of
the Trinity). Beware of the "Church of 'Bible Bob'" TM my Christian brethren
for it is antichrist.]
"You just proved that your hatred for me is stronger than you love for God
or even your denomination." [Again "Bible Bob" falsely accuses me of hating
him. It must make him feel more important if he accuses others of hating him
regardless of whether they do or not. In my case, I do not nor ever have
hated "Bible Bob" and his accusations of hatred are false. False accusations
are one of the staples of "Bible Bob"'s posts and are an unGodly practice
that God abhors.]
"Ain't it grand when a pretender exposes himself to the whole world as a
hatemonger and a deceiver?" [Interesting how self-descriptive "Bible Bob"'s
words can be. Also note the prideful arrogance exhibited by "Bible Bob" in
the way he worded this.]
"Take you [Carl] and some of the other fundamentalists that post to the
group. You [Carl] preach the oral traditions you have been taught and are
loyal to those traditions. Pharisees were oral traditionalists, just like
you are." [And here we see "Bible Bob" using the strawman fallacy form of
argument. He creates something that is not there and tears it down trying to
support his position. This is a logical error and shows a lack of substance
in "Bible Bob"'s point. "Bible Bob" redefines fundamentalist Christianity
into something that it is not. He does this knowingly and in a disingenuous
fashion thereby proving more words of deceit.]
"How many times have you [Carl] been asked to prove your views from the
Scriptures? Many times. You cannot so do not." [Actually I have as well as
numerous other Christians but "Bible Bob" can only respond with denials of
documented fact. Please check Google { http://groups.google.com/} which has
documented the numerous refutations of "Bible Bob"'s heresies by Christians
throughout the years.]
"Do you now you think yourself as a mini-god able to order others about?
Your order "Pray for them" is an indicator that you think yourself above
everyone else." [Now "Bible Bob" attempts to smear by accusing me falsely of
thinking myself a "mini-god" when I have never done so. When I said "Pray
for them" I was making a request that is Biblically based and justified by
God's commands. Is "Bible Bob" now opposing God's instruction for us to pray
for others? It certainly sounds like it.]
"You are busted in another lie, worker of iniquity. There is only one Jesus
Christ." [There is indeed only one Jesus Christ but since "Bible Bob"
teaches a Jesus that is not divine, "Bible Bob" teaches a false Jesus and
not the Jesus Christ of the Bible. "Bible Bob" denies the deity of Jesus
Christ therefore "Bible Bob"s Jesus is not the one and true Jesus Christ,
our Lord and Savior. This is another essential doctrine of Christianity that
"Bible Bob" opposes with heresy. Please also note that "Bible Bob" attempts
to smear once again by falsely calling me a "worker of iniquity."]
"I challenged you to prove your lies; not document my truths which you
present as lies." [Actually, as documented, "Bible Bob" challenged me to
show where he lied. This he challenged me on multiple occasions so I began
compiling and documenting his lies and deceptions into this text file which
I have been updating periodically with "Bible Bob"'s own words.]
"I see, you [Carl] think there is more than one Jesus Christ." [Typical
misrepresentation by "Bible Bob." I believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible
who is God manifest in flesh, the second person of the Trinity. "Bible Bob"
on the other hand denies the deity of Jesus Christ and has referred to Jesus
Christ as "a god." This shows that "Bible Bob"'s Jesus is a false Jesus.]
"Once again Kelly deliberately misinterprets. Here is what the post said:"
[It's quite hypocritical and equally a | | | | | |
