| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Ananias917" |
| Date: |
05 Mar 2006 06:48:57 PM |
| Object: |
How Does One Compare Quickly? |
Hi,
Are the futurists right? When Jesus said the
following...
"And, behold, I come *QUICKLY*; and my reward is with
me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
- Revelation 22:12
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come
*QUICKLY*. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
- Revelation 22:20
Did He really mean, "thousands of years"?
The futurists (those who believe in a future return
of Christ) say, "It doesn't mean that it would happen
quickly, but that when it does happen, it will seem
to have happened quickly.".
Does that sound right to you?
Is that what's being said in Scripture?
Is that what the Greek word there really means?
I would submit that anyone can make up a definition
to fit their doctrine, but does that definition hold up
when studying Scripture?
Let's take a look and see...
The Greek word used there, is "tachu".
So let's see where else it is used and apply the
futurist definition and see how it works in some
other verses...
"And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him,
and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter
on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up
*QUICKLY*. And his chains fell off from his hands."
- Acts 12:7
Okay, so here is the futurist translation...
"Hey Peter, take your time getting up and get up
whenever you're ready to. But when you do get up,
then it will seem to have happened quickly and then
we'll get out of here, okay?"
I don't think that's what the angel was saying.
Any else know if he meant that???
Well, let's try another one and see what happens.
"And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee
*QUICKLY* out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive
thy testimony concerning me." - Acts 22:18
So what would the futurist translation be?
"And saw him saying unto me, Make haste and get
thee at some point, whenever you are ready to, out
of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony
concerning me."
I don't know. Hmmmmm.... Maybe that's right?
Oh well, you decide. :)
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
The Last Days were in the first century:
Hebrews 1:1-2
1) God who at sundry times and in divers manners
spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2) Hath IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by
His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;
.
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| User: "Vitruvian Man" |
|
| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
05 Mar 2006 09:59:00 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 00:48:57 GMT, Ananias917
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Are the futurists right? When Jesus said the
following...
"And, behold, I come *QUICKLY*; and my reward is with
me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
- Revelation 22:12
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come
*QUICKLY*. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
- Revelation 22:20
Did He really mean, "thousands of years"?
The futurists (those who believe in a future return
of Christ) say, "It doesn't mean that it would happen
quickly, but that when it does happen, it will seem
to have happened quickly.".
Does that sound right to you?
Is that what's being said in Scripture?
Is that what the Greek word there really means?
I would submit that anyone can make up a definition
to fit their doctrine, but does that definition hold up
when studying Scripture?
Let's take a look and see...
The Greek word used there, is "tachu".
So let's see where else it is used and apply the
futurist definition and see how it works in some
other verses...
"And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him,
and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter
on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up
*QUICKLY*. And his chains fell off from his hands."
- Acts 12:7
Okay, so here is the futurist translation...
"Hey Peter, take your time getting up and get up
whenever you're ready to. But when you do get up,
then it will seem to have happened quickly and then
we'll get out of here, okay?"
I don't think that's what the angel was saying.
Any else know if he meant that???
NAS Luke 17:24 "For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one
part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son
of Man be in His day.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day
of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
Practice exegesis, not eisegesis!
--
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.
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 10:04:25 AM |
|
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On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:59:00 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 00:48:57 GMT, Ananias917
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Are the futurists right? When Jesus said the
following...
"And, behold, I come *QUICKLY*; and my reward is with
me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
- Revelation 22:12
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come
*QUICKLY*. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
- Revelation 22:20
Did He really mean, "thousands of years"?
The futurists (those who believe in a future return
of Christ) say, "It doesn't mean that it would happen
quickly, but that when it does happen, it will seem
to have happened quickly.".
Does that sound right to you?
Is that what's being said in Scripture?
Is that what the Greek word there really means?
I would submit that anyone can make up a definition
to fit their doctrine, but does that definition hold up
when studying Scripture?
Let's take a look and see...
The Greek word used there, is "tachu".
So let's see where else it is used and apply the
futurist definition and see how it works in some
other verses...
"And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him,
and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter
on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up
*QUICKLY*. And his chains fell off from his hands."
- Acts 12:7
Okay, so here is the futurist translation...
"Hey Peter, take your time getting up and get up
whenever you're ready to. But when you do get up,
then it will seem to have happened quickly and then
we'll get out of here, okay?"
I don't think that's what the angel was saying.
Any else know if he meant that???
NAS Luke 17:24 "For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one
part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son
of Man be in His day.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day
of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
Practice exegesis, not eisegesis!
Thank you for proving my point! YOU IGNORE
THE WHEN, trying to make claims about the how!
If the last days were in their time, then it must have
been fulfilled then. Your job is not to question IF,
but rather, HOW, while believing what it says!
What YOU are doing now, is pitting Scripture
against Scripture! "That can't be true, because
this says...". That's sad! (:
Luke 17:24 says, "AS the lightning". It does not
say, "there will be lightning".
And God has used lightning to symbolize His
judgment before.
"And he sent out arrows, and scattered them;
lightning, and discomfited them." - 2 Sam 22:15
There are many more examples.
The idea was that His presence would be felt.
It was not something the opposing army could
miss.
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
So my advice to you, is to practice exegesis,
not eisegesis.
You are trying to force the Bible to filter through
your own personal doctrine. (:
Let it also be noted that you could not dispute
THE FACT of the time statements made.
QUICKLY DOES NOT EQUAL THOUSANDS OF YEARS!
AND NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND, WOULD READ
A LETTER THAT SAID "QUICKLY" AND ASSUME THAT!
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle.
I just wish He didn't trust me so much.
.
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| User: "Vitruvian Man" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 07:56:09 PM |
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:04:25 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:59:00 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
<<snipped simply for brevity>>
NAS Luke 17:24 "For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one
part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son
of Man be in His day.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day
of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
<<snipped for brevity>>
Luke 17:24 says, "AS the lightning". It does not
say, "there will be lightning".
You again have misapprehended the intent of the posting,
Pastor Dave. This verse implies that Christ's return will be
'quick,' dramatic, and unmistakable to all, "just as the lightning."
The similar verse regarding the fall of Satan should provide some
insight into what Christ was saying regarding his return, because the
passages are remarkably similar, and each metaphor parallels the
other. This is a sound hermeneutical approach.
--
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| User: "Vitruvian Man" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 12:41:20 PM |
|
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:04:25 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:59:00 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 00:48:57 GMT, Ananias917
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Are the futurists right? When Jesus said the
following...
"And, behold, I come *QUICKLY*; and my reward is with
me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
- Revelation 22:12
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come
*QUICKLY*. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
- Revelation 22:20
<<snipped merely for brevity>>>
"Hey Peter, take your time getting up and get up
whenever you're ready to. But when you do get up,
then it will seem to have happened quickly and then
we'll get out of here, okay?"
I don't think that's what the angel was saying.
Any else know if he meant that???
NAS Luke 17:24 "For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one
part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son
of Man be in His day.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day
of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
Practice exegesis, not eisegesis!
Thank you for proving my point! YOU IGNORE
THE WHEN, trying to make claims about the how!
If the last days were in their time, then it must have
been fulfilled then. Your job is not to question IF,
but rather, HOW, while believing what it says!
What YOU are doing now, is pitting Scripture
against Scripture! "That can't be true, because
this says...". That's sad! (:
Luke 17:24 says, "AS the lightning". It does not
say, "there will be lightning".
And God has used lightning to symbolize His
judgment before.
"And he sent out arrows, and scattered them;
lightning, and discomfited them." - 2 Sam 22:15
There are many more examples.
You missed the most relevent example, Pastor
NAS Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from
heaven like lightning.
The idea was that His presence would be felt.
It was not something the opposing army could
miss.
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
So my advice to you, is to practice exegesis,
not eisegesis.
You are trying to force the Bible to filter through
your own personal doctrine. (:
Pastor, what is my personal doctrine? Have I spelled it out
for you? What the honest man would confess, is that from having read
my posts, I have made no explicit disclosure of my doctrinal stance.
Even implicitly, I have revealed little of my doctrinal beliefs. How
well do you know me, Pastor Dave? Would you care to reveal my
doctrinal beliefs for the world at large? It's alright. I honestly
don't mind.
--
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.
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 03:00:36 PM |
|
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:41:20 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
NAS Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from
heaven like lightning.
And did anyone on Earth see Satan falling,
with lightning? No. You have no point,
when you try to claim that Jesus' return
will involve lightning.
Both passages say, "AS lightning" and not
"YOU WILL SEE LIGHTNING".
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
The Last Days were in the first century:
Romans 13:11-2
11) And that, knowing the time, that NOW it is
high time to awake out of sleep: for NOW is our
salvation nearer than when we believed.
12) The night is far spent, the day is AT HAND:
let us therefore cast off the works of darkness,
and let us put on the armor of light.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 02:59:24 PM |
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:41:20 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
You missed the most relevent example, Pastor
No, I didn't. I disproved your claim.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
The Last Days were in the first century:
"And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven
is AT HAND." - Matthew 3:2
.
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| User: "Vitruvian Man" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 PM |
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:04:25 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:59:00 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 00:48:57 GMT, Ananias917
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Are the futurists right? When Jesus said the
following...
"And, behold, I come *QUICKLY*; and my reward is with
me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
- Revelation 22:12
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come
*QUICKLY*. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
- Revelation 22:20
Did He really mean, "thousands of years"?
The futurists (those who believe in a future return
of Christ) say, "It doesn't mean that it would happen
quickly, but that when it does happen, it will seem
to have happened quickly.".
Does that sound right to you?
Is that what's being said in Scripture?
Is that what the Greek word there really means?
I would submit that anyone can make up a definition
to fit their doctrine, but does that definition hold up
when studying Scripture?
Let's take a look and see...
The Greek word used there, is "tachu".
So let's see where else it is used and apply the
futurist definition and see how it works in some
other verses...
"And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him,
and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter
on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up
*QUICKLY*. And his chains fell off from his hands."
- Acts 12:7
Okay, so here is the futurist translation...
"Hey Peter, take your time getting up and get up
whenever you're ready to. But when you do get up,
then it will seem to have happened quickly and then
we'll get out of here, okay?"
I don't think that's what the angel was saying.
Any else know if he meant that???
NAS Luke 17:24 "For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one
part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son
of Man be in His day.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day
of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
Practice exegesis, not eisegesis!
Thank you for proving my point! YOU IGNORE
THE WHEN, trying to make claims about the how!
If the last days were in their time, then it must have
been fulfilled then. Your job is not to question IF,
but rather, HOW, while believing what it says!
What YOU are doing now, is pitting Scripture
against Scripture! "That can't be true, because
this says...". That's sad! (:
Luke 17:24 says, "AS the lightning". It does not
say, "there will be lightning".
And God has used lightning to symbolize His
judgment before.
"And he sent out arrows, and scattered them;
lightning, and discomfited them." - 2 Sam 22:15
There are many more examples.
The idea was that His presence would be felt.
It was not something the opposing army could
miss.
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
forth of My Spirit upon all mankind; And your sons and your daughters
shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men
shall dream dreams;
Are these the last days, Pastor?
--
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|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 03:04:05 PM |
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
You are acting the moron.
Paul write TO someone and addressed THEM.
He had NO IDEA that his writings would
survive this long.
You are making EXCUSES so that you can
continue to believe that it's all about YOU.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
And once again, you do so TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
Note: THIS IS WHAT...
Peter said that THEY were in the last days.
Peter said that the prophecy was coming true THEN.
NOT NOW.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit is STILL present,
has nothing to do with when that prophecy was
fulfilled.
YOU IMAGINED UP the scenario that if it was
fulfilled, that means that the Holy Spirit doesn't
live within people any more and you then FALSELY
ascribed that belief to me!
Now take your straw man and go sit in a corn field!
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
www.answersingenesis.org
.
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| User: "Vitruvian Man" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 05:17:52 PM |
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:04:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
You are acting the moron.
Paul write TO someone and addressed THEM.
He had NO IDEA that his writings would
survive this long.
You are making EXCUSES so that you can
continue to believe that it's all about YOU.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
And once again, you do so TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
Note: THIS IS WHAT...
Peter said that THEY were in the last days.
Peter said that the prophecy was coming true THEN.
NOT NOW.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit is STILL present,
has nothing to do with when that prophecy was
fulfilled.
YOU IMAGINED UP the scenario that if it was
fulfilled, that means that the Holy Spirit doesn't
live within people any more and you then FALSELY
ascribed that belief to me!
No, what I and others have done is to apply some rational
thought to what we read in the Scriptures, Pastor Dave. If the Holy
Spirit is still at work in this day and age, (as I know that He is,
and the Preterist web site that your colleague cited affirms) then we
must still be in the last days that Peter referenced in quoting the
prophet. If we are to assign any time period to what Peter is
speaking of in the "last days," beyond the 24 hour period in which
Peter is speaking, we should do so based on evidential material from
the Scriptures. Verses 16 and 17 inherently define what that time
period is, and that is the period of time in which the Holy Spirit is
active in the church. We must necessarily still be in the last days
if we are to accept Scripture and the work of the Holy Spirit. Paul
provides some hint as to when the gifts of the Spirit will cease in
his first letter to the Corinthians, as that which is perfect has not
yet come (as also stated by the same Preterist web site).
--
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
07 Mar 2006 09:00:59 AM |
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 17:17:52 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:04:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
You are acting the moron.
Paul write TO someone and addressed THEM.
He had NO IDEA that his writings would
survive this long.
You are making EXCUSES so that you can
continue to believe that it's all about YOU.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
And once again, you do so TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
Note: THIS IS WHAT...
Peter said that THEY were in the last days.
Peter said that the prophecy was coming true THEN.
NOT NOW.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit is STILL present,
has nothing to do with when that prophecy was
fulfilled.
YOU IMAGINED UP the scenario that if it was
fulfilled, that means that the Holy Spirit doesn't
live within people any more and you then FALSELY
ascribed that belief to me!
No, what I and others have done is to apply some rational
thought to what we read in the Scriptures, Pastor Dave. If the Holy
Spirit is still at work in this day and age, (as I know that He is,
and the Preterist web site that your colleague cited affirms) then we
must still be in the last days that Peter referenced in quoting the
prophet.
THAT IS YOUR CLAIM! THAT IS NOT PROOF OF THAT CLAIM!
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
The Last Days were in the first century:
Revelation 1:1,3
1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God
gave unto him, to show unto his servants things
WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto
his servant John:
2) Who bare record of the word of God, and of
the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things
that he saw.
3) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear
the words of this prophecy, and keep those things
which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.
.
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| User: "Ektor" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
07 Mar 2006 02:03:38 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:00:59 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 17:17:52 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:04:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
You are acting the moron.
Paul write TO someone and addressed THEM.
He had NO IDEA that his writings would
survive this long.
You are making EXCUSES so that you can
continue to believe that it's all about YOU.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
And once again, you do so TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
Note: THIS IS WHAT...
Peter said that THEY were in the last days.
Peter said that the prophecy was coming true THEN.
NOT NOW.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit is STILL present,
has nothing to do with when that prophecy was
fulfilled.
YOU IMAGINED UP the scenario that if it was
fulfilled, that means that the Holy Spirit doesn't
live within people any more and you then FALSELY
ascribed that belief to me!
No, what I and others have done is to apply some rational
thought to what we read in the Scriptures, Pastor Dave. If the Holy
Spirit is still at work in this day and age, (as I know that He is,
and the Preterist web site that your colleague cited affirms) then we
must still be in the last days that Peter referenced in quoting the
prophet.
THAT IS YOUR CLAIM! THAT IS NOT PROOF OF THAT CLAIM!
Pastor, the proof is intrinsic to the passage itself. To put
it simply, Peter states that the Holy Spirit and it's interaction with
individual believers is a component of the last days. This denotes
that the Holy Spirit's influence will span the entire expanse of that
time period - the last days. The Holy Spirit is still at work on an
individual level in the church, ergo, we necessarily still must be in
the last days. This is not merely a claim, it's an internal proof.
The only way one can rationalize this is to try to deny the work of
the Holy Spirit in the modern church. Are you willing to go that
route?
--
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.
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
07 Mar 2006 02:54:54 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:03:38 -0600, Ektor
<Melitus@Dithyrambic.com> spake thusly:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:00:59 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 17:17:52 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:04:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
You are acting the moron.
Paul write TO someone and addressed THEM.
He had NO IDEA that his writings would
survive this long.
You are making EXCUSES so that you can
continue to believe that it's all about YOU.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
And once again, you do so TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
Note: THIS IS WHAT...
Peter said that THEY were in the last days.
Peter said that the prophecy was coming true THEN.
NOT NOW.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit is STILL present,
has nothing to do with when that prophecy was
fulfilled.
YOU IMAGINED UP the scenario that if it was
fulfilled, that means that the Holy Spirit doesn't
live within people any more and you then FALSELY
ascribed that belief to me!
No, what I and others have done is to apply some rational
thought to what we read in the Scriptures, Pastor Dave. If the Holy
Spirit is still at work in this day and age, (as I know that He is,
and the Preterist web site that your colleague cited affirms) then we
must still be in the last days that Peter referenced in quoting the
prophet.
THAT IS YOUR CLAIM! THAT IS NOT PROOF OF THAT CLAIM!
Pastor, the proof is intrinsic to the passage itself. To put
it simply, Peter states that the Holy Spirit and it's interaction with
individual believers is a component of the last days. This denotes
that the Holy Spirit's influence will span the entire expanse of that
time period - the last days. The Holy Spirit is still at work on an
individual level in the church, ergo, we necessarily still must be in
the last days. This is not merely a claim, it's an internal proof.
The only way one can rationalize this is to try to deny the work of
the Holy Spirit in the modern church. Are you willing to go that
route?
Again, you are making claims. You claim that
the passage itself proves it.
The reality is, that YOU, according to YOUR
INTERPRETATION of that passage, BELIEVE
that it proves it!
The Bible never says that after the end of that age,
that the Holy Spirit would no longer indwell men.
NOT IN ONE PLACE!!!
Therefore, you built a straw man and then ascribed
that straw man to me, as if I was saying it and now,
even after pointing this out to and pointing out to
you that I do not believe that, you still insist that
I must believe that and must be saying that, in
order to hold the view that I actually hold.
That makes you a liar.
I have explained this clearly to you!
The end was the end of AN AGE, JUST AS JESUS SAID!
In Hebrews 6:4-6, we read that another age was to come.
In Isaiah, we see that life was to go on after it was
all said and done.
It was NOT "the end of time"!
Now take your STRAW MAN and go sit in a corn field
with it and tell your LIES about what it is I believe,
to the corn!
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
Evolution =
Unknown chemicals in the primordial past...through...
Unknown processes which no longer exist...produced...
Unknown life forms which are not to be found, but
could through...
Unknown reproduction methods spawn new life...in an..
Unknown atmospheric composition...in an...
Unknown oceanic soup complex...at an...
Unknown time and place.
Dr. Henry Morris
.
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| User: "Pax Romana" |
|
| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
07 Mar 2006 04:28:36 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 20:54:54 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:03:38 -0600, Ektor
<Melitus@Dithyrambic.com> spake thusly:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:00:59 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 17:17:52 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:04:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
You are acting the moron.
Paul write TO someone and addressed THEM.
He had NO IDEA that his writings would
survive this long.
You are making EXCUSES so that you can
continue to believe that it's all about YOU.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
And once again, you do so TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
Note: THIS IS WHAT...
Peter said that THEY were in the last days.
Peter said that the prophecy was coming true THEN.
NOT NOW.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit is STILL present,
has nothing to do with when that prophecy was
fulfilled.
YOU IMAGINED UP the scenario that if it was
fulfilled, that means that the Holy Spirit doesn't
live within people any more and you then FALSELY
ascribed that belief to me!
No, what I and others have done is to apply some rational
thought to what we read in the Scriptures, Pastor Dave. If the Holy
Spirit is still at work in this day and age, (as I know that He is,
and the Preterist web site that your colleague cited affirms) then we
must still be in the last days that Peter referenced in quoting the
prophet.
THAT IS YOUR CLAIM! THAT IS NOT PROOF OF THAT CLAIM!
Pastor, the proof is intrinsic to the passage itself. To put
it simply, Peter states that the Holy Spirit and it's interaction with
individual believers is a component of the last days. This denotes
that the Holy Spirit's influence will span the entire expanse of that
time period - the last days. The Holy Spirit is still at work on an
individual level in the church, ergo, we necessarily still must be in
the last days. This is not merely a claim, it's an internal proof.
The only way one can rationalize this is to try to deny the work of
the Holy Spirit in the modern church. Are you willing to go that
route?
Again, you are making claims. You claim that
the passage itself proves it.
The reality is, that YOU, according to YOUR
INTERPRETATION of that passage, BELIEVE
that it proves it!
The Bible never says that after the end of that age,
that the Holy Spirit would no longer indwell men.
NOT IN ONE PLACE!!!
Therefore, you built a straw man and then ascribed
that straw man to me, as if I was saying it and now,
even after pointing this out to and pointing out to
you that I do not believe that, you still insist that
I must believe that and must be saying that, in
order to hold the view that I actually hold.
Well, I suppose a dour person such as yourself doesn't need a
good sense of humor after all. This convoluted piece of sophistry is
comical enough. :)
--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
.
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
08 Mar 2006 10:13:05 AM |
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On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 16:28:36 -0600, Pax Romana
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 20:54:54 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:03:38 -0600, Ektor
<Melitus@Dithyrambic.com> spake thusly:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:00:59 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 17:17:52 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:04:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
You are acting the moron.
Paul write TO someone and addressed THEM.
He had NO IDEA that his writings would
survive this long.
You are making EXCUSES so that you can
continue to believe that it's all about YOU.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
And once again, you do so TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
Note: THIS IS WHAT...
Peter said that THEY were in the last days.
Peter said that the prophecy was coming true THEN.
NOT NOW.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit is STILL present,
has nothing to do with when that prophecy was
fulfilled.
YOU IMAGINED UP the scenario that if it was
fulfilled, that means that the Holy Spirit doesn't
live within people any more and you then FALSELY
ascribed that belief to me!
No, what I and others have done is to apply some rational
thought to what we read in the Scriptures, Pastor Dave. If the Holy
Spirit is still at work in this day and age, (as I know that He is,
and the Preterist web site that your colleague cited affirms) then we
must still be in the last days that Peter referenced in quoting the
prophet.
THAT IS YOUR CLAIM! THAT IS NOT PROOF OF THAT CLAIM!
Pastor, the proof is intrinsic to the passage itself. To put
it simply, Peter states that the Holy Spirit and it's interaction with
individual believers is a component of the last days. This denotes
that the Holy Spirit's influence will span the entire expanse of that
time period - the last days. The Holy Spirit is still at work on an
individual level in the church, ergo, we necessarily still must be in
the last days. This is not merely a claim, it's an internal proof.
The only way one can rationalize this is to try to deny the work of
the Holy Spirit in the modern church. Are you willing to go that
route?
Again, you are making claims. You claim that
the passage itself proves it.
The reality is, that YOU, according to YOUR
INTERPRETATION of that passage, BELIEVE
that it proves it!
The Bible never says that after the end of that age,
that the Holy Spirit would no longer indwell men.
NOT IN ONE PLACE!!!
Therefore, you built a straw man and then ascribed
that straw man to me, as if I was saying it and now,
even after pointing this out to and pointing out to
you that I do not believe that, you still insist that
I must believe that and must be saying that, in
order to hold the view that I actually hold.
Well, I suppose a dour person such as yourself doesn't
need a good sense of humor after all. This convoluted
piece of sophistry is comical enough. :)
That was a very poor attempt to save yourself from
embarrassment and it didn't work. (:
Fact: You were not joking. You are simply now
trying to pretend that you were.
Fact: Nowhere does the Bible say that after the end
of that age, that the Holy Spirit would no longer
indwell men.
Fact: You people CLAIMED that was the case and
then falsely CLAIMED that I believed that.
Fact: You continued to do this, even after it was
explained to you that the Bible does not say that.
Now, that aside, you ASSUME that "the last days"
equals "the end of time". Nowhere does the Bible
teach that. Rather, it teaches that they would be
the last days of THAT AGE. There is quite a
difference between those two things, don't you think?
The question the disciples asked, was about...
"the end of the age" (Mat 24:3).
Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us that there was to be another
age to come.
Isaiah tells us that after it was all said and done,
life on Earth would go on.
He notes building homes (Is 65:20; 66:24).
He notes farming (Is 65:21-22).
He notes people having descendants, which means
that it cannot be just believers, with glorified bodies
that are no longer human (Is 65:23; 66:22).
He notes a new priestly group, which describes
the church, which is us (Is 65:24).
Now if you can't wrap your head around this,
that's YOUR problem, not mine and you CHOOSING
not to believe it, does not make it any less Biblical!
What are you REALLY interested in? Truth?
Or YOUR DOCTRINE???
If truth, then we have something to talk about.
If your preference is, as it has been thus far,
to ascribe things to me that I never said, to
try to discredit me any way possible, including
by bearing false witness against me, so that
you don't have to deal with the facts I present,
then we have nothing to talk about.
It's your choice. It's your call.
As far as I'm concerned, we can put all of this
behind us, forget about it and move on and
discuss the issues. Are you willing to do that?
All I ask, is that you do not tell me what it is
I believe, when it is obvious that you are not
familiar at all with what I believe.
And FYI, what I believe is the belief of the ancient
church and what you believe, came about in the
late 1700's/early 1800's, with Darby and that also,
is historical fact.
But that doesn't really matter. If you want to believe
what you believe, then do so. But let's talk about it
honestly and let's heed Scripture and please, please,
do not assume that what YOU THINK Scripture says,
based on what you were taught BY MEN, is somehow
automatically true.
I did not always believe what I do. In fact, I had
never even heard of this position before a couple
of years ago, or so. But I always knew that
something didn't sit right with the teachings
of the modern church. As a preacher, I avoided
the subject, because I did not want to risk teaching
anything that may not be true. Now I do not have
to risk that and no one and I mean no one, has
been able to give a solid refutation to what I teach
and yes, my ears are open and I am always ready
to be rebutted! :)
However, before we continue, should you decide to,
please read the following message that I wrote.
It will give you an idea of what it is I am saying
and how I came to believe what I do and a small
part of what it is I actually believe. :)
http://tinyurl.com/qjmmf
Then, if you wish, we can continue and discuss
the issues, rationally and intelligently.
"Come, let us reason together, saith the Lord."
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
http://www.creationists.org/ervin.html
.
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| User: "Pax Romana" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
08 Mar 2006 11:59:08 AM |
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|
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:13:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 16:28:36 -0600, Pax Romana
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 20:54:54 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:03:38 -0600, Ektor
<Melitus@Dithyrambic.com> spake thusly:
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:00:59 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 17:17:52 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:04:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:46:11 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
1 Thess 5:2 was written to a church that existed
in the first century. That means when Paul said
"you", he was speaking TO THEM. For you to
pretend that the time line started the day YOU
opened a Bible for the first time, is simply
RIDICULOUS!
All of Paul's writings are for the entire church, that still exists,
having its inception on the day of Pentecost.
You are acting the moron.
Paul write TO someone and addressed THEM.
He had NO IDEA that his writings would
survive this long.
You are making EXCUSES so that you can
continue to believe that it's all about YOU.
I'll ask again, Pastor, do we as Christians have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
And once again, you do so TO AVOID THE ISSUE.
2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour
Note: THIS IS WHAT...
Peter said that THEY were in the last days.
Peter said that the prophecy was coming true THEN.
NOT NOW.
Whether or not the Holy Spirit is STILL present,
has nothing to do with when that prophecy was
fulfilled.
YOU IMAGINED UP the scenario that if it was
fulfilled, that means that the Holy Spirit doesn't
live within people any more and you then FALSELY
ascribed that belief to me!
No, what I and others have done is to apply some rational
thought to what we read in the Scriptures, Pastor Dave. If the Holy
Spirit is still at work in this day and age, (as I know that He is,
and the Preterist web site that your colleague cited affirms) then we
must still be in the last days that Peter referenced in quoting the
prophet.
THAT IS YOUR CLAIM! THAT IS NOT PROOF OF THAT CLAIM!
Pastor, the proof is intrinsic to the passage itself. To put
it simply, Peter states that the Holy Spirit and it's interaction with
individual believers is a component of the last days. This denotes
that the Holy Spirit's influence will span the entire expanse of that
time period - the last days. The Holy Spirit is still at work on an
individual level in the church, ergo, we necessarily still must be in
the last days. This is not merely a claim, it's an internal proof.
The only way one can rationalize this is to try to deny the work of
the Holy Spirit in the modern church. Are you willing to go that
route?
Again, you are making claims. You claim that
the passage itself proves it.
The reality is, that YOU, according to YOUR
INTERPRETATION of that passage, BELIEVE
that it proves it!
The Bible never says that after the end of that age,
that the Holy Spirit would no longer indwell men.
NOT IN ONE PLACE!!!
Therefore, you built a straw man and then ascribed
that straw man to me, as if I was saying it and now,
even after pointing this out to and pointing out to
you that I do not believe that, you still insist that
I must believe that and must be saying that, in
order to hold the view that I actually hold.
Well, I suppose a dour person such as yourself doesn't
need a good sense of humor after all. This convoluted
piece of sophistry is comical enough. :)
That was a very poor attempt to save yourself from
embarrassment and it didn't work. (:
Fact: You were not joking. You are simply now
trying to pretend that you were.
No, I'm an honest person, Pastor. :) Try reading what you
wrote out loud just one time to hear youself say it:
"Therefore, you built a straw man and then ascribed
that straw man to me, as if I was saying it and now,
even after pointing this out to and pointing out to
you that I do not believe that, you still insist that
I must believe that and must be saying that, in
order to hold the view that I actually hold."
Not to be mean about it, but it is genuinely amusing! In
fact, have an observer listen to you read it out loud.
I think you would be more amenable, affable, and likeable if
you were able to laugh at yourself on occasion, Pastor. Nobody in
this world is above reproach, and no one person is without foible,
honestly! ;)
--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
.
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
08 Mar 2006 02:05:24 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 11:59:08 -0600, Pax Romana
<Melitus@Dithyrambic.com> spake thusly:
Not to be mean about it, but it is genuinely amusing!
You are being mean about it and frankly, you don't
even seem to have the smarts to hide your animosity
and your intentional ignoring of the points better. (:
But that's okay. It's you you're making an ***** out of,
not me and I forgive you anyway.
As for this issue, see new thread titled...
"PING: PAX ROMANA (Can We Have A Discussion?)"
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose
you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which
your fathers served that were on the other side of the
flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye
dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the
LORD. - Joshua 24:15
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: PING: PAX ROMANA (Can We Have A Discussion?) |
08 Mar 2006 02:03:58 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 11:59:08 -0600, Pax Romana
<Melitus@Dithyrambic.com> spake thusly:
Are you interested in truth? Yes, or no?
If yes, then I would suggest that it's time to deal
with the subjects, instead of dwelling on whether
or not you can make me look bad.
The subject that I had brought up, which was not
dealt with from the other day, was that both the
writers of Hebrews and 1 John, said that the last
days were in the first century.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1) God, who at various times and in various ways
spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2) has *IN THESE LAST DAYS* spoken to us by
His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things,
through whom also He made the worlds
Note: Not "THE last days", but "THESE last days".
That makes it present tense to when the
writer wrote it.
Now let's look at what John wrote, which was later
than what the writer of Hebrews wrote.
"Little children, IT IS THE LAST *HOUR*; and as
you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now
many antichrists have come, by which we know
that IT IS THE LAST *HOUR*. - John 2:18
Note: Last HOUR. Not even "last days", but since
John wrote this later than Hebrews, he was
saying that it was (in that time), the "last
*HOUR*". That in no way, leaves room for,
"thousands of years and still counting".
Now are you going to deal with this issue, which
was the original issue, head on? Or are you going
to again tell me how wrong I am, without any proof?
These passages say what they say and no amount
of dancing around them by anyone, while claiming
that a time statement doesn't imply a time constraint,
is going to change that.
The writer of Hebrews says that it was the last days
and then John later says that it was the last hour
and yet, no time constraints are being mentioned?
HUH?! :)
Nor are these the only two time statements in the NT.
I can list many more of them. The question is, what
will you do with them?
You seem to have no problem picturing Jesus riding
a cloud like a cowboy or something, yet can't believe
a statement that it was the last days then? Huh???
You find it hard to believe, because you insist that
the last days meant the end of time. And you insist
on that, EVEN AFTER I have shown you that it was
not the case, Biblically.
So what would cause one to keep insisting on what
they now know isn't true? Vanity comes to mind.
Must it be all about YOU, or the Bible is USELESS?
Think about what that implies about your method
of interpretation! Just a suggestion.
I await your response and I hope that you will choose
to deal with my message, specifically and on point.
Your response will be the determining factor as to
whether or not you are interested in an open, honest
discussion, or whether you are interested in dodging
the issue and then going on to attack me personally.
I'm not accusing you. I am saying that your response
will prove your intent, one way or the other.
Forget what has happened. Let us move on from this
point forward and see where this discussion leads us.
I would also appreciate you responding on point, to
the original message that I sent, which started this
thread. No point by point response has been given.
Here is the text again. If you wish to claim that
something within my message is wrong, then
please do so, by specifically pointing out what
you believe is in error and proving that it is.
That is what a debate, friendly or not, is about.
What a debate, friendly or not is NOT ABOUT,
is ignoring the points and then slamming your
opponent personally and that is all I have ever
seen from the futurist crowd. Personal slams
and intentional misrepresentations of what
I have said.
Again, I'm not accusing you personally. I am
saying that it has been my experience in the past.
So what say you? A friendly, on point, Scriptural
discussion/debate? Or a slam fest?
If you wish to have a friendly discussion/debate,
then please, do so by dealing specifically with
the specific points I made and I will respond.
Let us have a reasonable, intelligent discussion.
"Come, let us reason together, saith the Lord."
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
http://www.douknow.net/ev_evolution_test.htm
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: PAX ROMANA (Can We Have A Discussion?) |
08 Mar 2006 02:59:48 PM |
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Pastor nothing, you know no Truth. What you know is a corrupted simulation,
called..watch the little lemmings follow the leader over the cliff. Or,
watch the people waste their lives, their time on meaningless mumbo jumbo
and puff up their chests and gloat that they know "truth" when in Truth,
they are not even bothering to find out what Ha Kodesh Baruch Hu, the Holy
One Blessed is He, wants them to learn.
"Pastor Dave" <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hnbu0259gjnsjdls0prd92fu1lu9jrg41o@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 11:59:08 -0600, Pax Romana
<Melitus@Dithyrambic.com> spake thusly:
Are you interested in truth? Yes, or no?
If yes, then I would suggest that it's time to deal
with the subjects, instead of dwelling on whether
or not you can make me look bad.
The subject that I had brought up, which was not
dealt with from the other day, was that both the
writers of Hebrews and 1 John, said that the last
days were in the first century.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1) God, who at various times and in various ways
spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2) has *IN THESE LAST DAYS* spoken to us by
His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things,
through whom also He made the worlds
Note: Not "THE last days", but "THESE last days".
That makes it present tense to when the
writer wrote it.
Now let's look at what John wrote, which was later
than what the writer of Hebrews wrote.
"Little children, IT IS THE LAST *HOUR*; and as
you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now
many antichrists have come, by which we know
that IT IS THE LAST *HOUR*. - John 2:18
Note: Last HOUR. Not even "last days", but since
John wrote this later than Hebrews, he was
saying that it was (in that time), the "last
*HOUR*". That in no way, leaves room for,
"thousands of years and still counting".
Now are you going to deal with this issue, which
was the original issue, head on? Or are you going
to again tell me how wrong I am, without any proof?
These passages say what they say and no amount
of dancing around them by anyone, while claiming
that a time statement doesn't imply a time constraint,
is going to change that.
The writer of Hebrews says that it was the last days
and then John later says that it was the last hour
and yet, no time constraints are being mentioned?
HUH?! :)
Nor are these the only two time statements in the NT.
I can list many more of them. The question is, what
will you do with them?
You seem to have no problem picturing Jesus riding
a cloud like a cowboy or something, yet can't believe
a statement that it was the last days then? Huh???
You find it hard to believe, because you insist that
the last days meant the end of time. And you insist
on that, EVEN AFTER I have shown you that it was
not the case, Biblically.
So what would cause one to keep insisting on what
they now know isn't true? Vanity comes to mind.
Must it be all about YOU, or the Bible is USELESS?
Think about what that implies about your method
of interpretation! Just a suggestion.
I await your response and I hope that you will choose
to deal with my message, specifically and on point.
Your response will be the determining factor as to
whether or not you are interested in an open, honest
discussion, or whether you are interested in dodging
the issue and then going on to attack me personally.
I'm not accusing you. I am saying that your response
will prove your intent, one way or the other.
Forget what has happened. Let us move on from this
point forward and see where this discussion leads us.
I would also appreciate you responding on point, to
the original message that I sent, which started this
thread. No point by point response has been given.
Here is the text again. If you wish to claim that
something within my message is wrong, then
please do so, by specifically pointing out what
you believe is in error and proving that it is.
That is what a debate, friendly or not, is about.
What a debate, friendly or not is NOT ABOUT,
is ignoring the points and then slamming your
opponent personally and that is all I have ever
seen from the futurist crowd. Personal slams
and intentional misrepresentations of what
I have said.
Again, I'm not accusing you personally. I am
saying that it has been my experience in the past.
So what say you? A friendly, on point, Scriptural
discussion/debate? Or a slam fest?
If you wish to have a friendly discussion/debate,
then please, do so by dealing specifically with
the specific points I made and I will respond.
Let us have a reasonable, intelligent discussion.
"Come, let us reason together, saith the Lord."
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
http://www.douknow.net/ev_evolution_test.htm
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "Vitruvian Man" |
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| Title: Re: How Does One Compare Quickly? |
06 Mar 2006 07:44:18 PM |
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:04:25 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:59:00 -0600, Vitruvian Man
<Musonius@Rufus.org> spake thusly:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 00:48:57 GMT, Ananias917
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
<<refer to previous post for previously posted>>
You are trying to force the Bible to filter through
your own personal doctrine. (:
Pastor, again I ask, what is my personal doctrine? Have I
spelled it out for you? What the honest man would confess, is that
from having read my posts, I have made no explicit disclosure of my
doctrinal stance. Even implicitly, I have revealed little of my
doctrinal beliefs. How well do you know me, Pastor Dave? Would you
care to reveal my doctrinal beliefs for the world at large? It's
alright. I honestly don't mind.
--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
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