How heaven is shut

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Doug"
Date:	06 Jan 2008 05:29:20 AM
Object:	How heaven is shut

Scripture shows that heaven has been shut, for many centuries. John wrote of
the two witnesses, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in
the days of their prophecy." [Revelation 11:6] The duration of their
prophecy is 1,260 days. [Revelation 11:3] These 1,260 days are a symbolic
period of three years and a half, that represent the age of the Church.
Jesus identified two things that would testify of him, the Spirit of God
[John 15:26], and the Word of God [John 5:39]. They are therefore two
witnesses, as one who testifies is a witness, and these two things can be
identified with the two witnesses of Revelation 11.
How has heaven been shut? The "rain" is symbolic of the word of God, and the
gifts of the Spirit of God to his saints. As rain causes crops and other
plants to grow and provide us with food, the Spirit of God causes us to
develop and grow spiritually. Isaiah compared God's word with rain: "For
as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not
thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it
may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be
that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it
shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing
whereto I sent it." [Isaiah 55:10-11]
Instead of growing spiritually, many Christians today are struggling, and
one reason for this is because heaven has been shut. For example there has
been no scripture since the days of the Apostles, miracles have ceased, and
Christians are scattered amongst thousands of sects and denominations.
Which is the true church? There is no sect or denomination in the world
today that fits!
As the prophet Elijah held back the rain in ancient Israel, the Spirit of
God has been held back from Christians, since the days of the Apostles, and
there has been a long famine of "hearing the word of God." This famine was
foretold by the prophet Amos: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst
for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from
sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro
to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it." [Amos 8:11-12]
The famine during the time of Elijah was mentioned by Jesus, who tells us
that it lasted for three years and six months. Jesus said to the Jews, "But
I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias,
when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine
was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save
unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow." [Luke
4:25-26]
The period of three and a half years is significant in prophecy. It is the
duration of the ministry of the two witnesses, and it corresponds to
the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and with the last half of the
70th week, the period in which Christ confirms his covenant with his people
[Daniel 9:24-27]. The covenant is the promise given to Abraham, that in his
seed, all nations will be blessed. Peter preached this, [Acts 3:25-26] and
Paul called it the gospel [Galatians 3:8].
James also referred to the three and a half years of no rain in the days of
Elijah, as an example of faith. "Elias was a man subject to like passions
as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained
not on the earth by the space of three years and six months." [James 5:17]
The three years and six months are symbolic of the age of the Church. It is
period of time the prophet Elijah was hidden from Israel, when there was no
rain. In the prophecy of Revelation 11, Elijah is a figure of the holy
Spirit of God. Just as Elijah held back the rain in Israel, God's spirit
has been lacking among Christians. Although men have sought for truth, and
for the word of God, they have failed to find it.
The prophet Zechariah said the spirit of grace and prayer will be poured
upon the house of David, which is the Church, those who believe in Christ
as their king. "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and
they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for
him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him,
as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." [Zechariah 12:10]
The phrase "they shall look upon me who they have pierced" depicts people
coming to know Jesus Christ, who is our king, and the saviour of all.
People mourn when then they understand how misguided they were. At that
time, many turn to God! Just as Elijah in ancient times turned the hearts
of the people of Israel to the true God, the Spirit of God, hidden for
centuries, reveals God to us.
Zechariah's prophecy is parallel to Matthew 24:30, "And then shall appear
the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory."
Jesus said all the tribes of the earth will see the glory of God, which is
when the Spirit of God is poured out upon his Church, the holy city where
Christ rules. This is what Malachi foretold. Elijah the prophet was to come
before the day of the Lord. And Jesus said that prophecy was fulfilled by
the ministry of John the Baptist. [Matthew 17:12] Malachi wrote, "Remember
ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all
Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the
prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he
shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the
children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
[Malachi 4:4-6]
The scriptures, and the holy spirit have been with the church, but as John's
prophecy shows, heaven has remained shut. And the two witnesses are
overcome and killed by the beast from the bottomless pit, and are like
corpses lying in the street. The great city, where their bodies are
exposed, is the world, which John identifies with Babylon, because Jesus
was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. Sodom and Egypt were places
from which God's people escaped. [Revelation 11:7-11]
The spirit of life from God revives the corpses of the two witnesses, and
causes them to stand up on their feet. When they hear a voice calling them
to come up to heaven, those who are in Christ begin to understand Bible
prophecy.
Doug
.

User: "Misty"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	07 Jan 2008 02:07:06 PM

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:UbOdnQ95hcEMJh3anZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@sentex.net...

The Duration of their prophecy is in prophetic time not literal time and
You need the key from the Old Testament (witness) to know how to
interpret Prophecy time schedules.
That 1,260 Days is also the length of time for the Great Tribulation.
I assure you it is not as you claim 3.5 years it is a lot longer then
that if you only could use the keys that you may find in Numbers
14:34 and Ezekiel 4:4-6. but if you can not see the keys given there
then just go ahead and say what ever pleases you but you are not
pleasing God nor scripture.
Rain in Prophecy means getting the Word.
There was not much leaning going on all during that period in History
called the Dark ages.

Jesus identified two things that would testify of him, the Spirit of God
[John 15:26], and the Word of God [John 5:39]. They are therefore two
witnesses, as one who testifies is a witness, and these two things can be
identified with the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

There is 2 other things that can be identified as well;
a witness testafies does it not?
WEll God also gave us the Old Testament (witness) and the New
Testament (witness) So what other 2 witnesses can you find that
witness any better then this?

How has heaven been shut? The "rain" is symbolic of the word of God, and the
gifts of the Spirit of God to his saints. As rain causes crops and other
plants to grow and provide us with food, the Spirit of God causes us to
develop and grow spiritually. Isaiah compared God's word with rain: "For
as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not
thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it
may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be
that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it
shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing
whereto I sent it." [Isaiah 55:10-11]

As I said above during the time of the 1260 days there was no learning
going on.
The RCC kept that at a minimum all that time during the GT.

Instead of growing spiritually, many Christians today are struggling, and
one reason for this is because heaven has been shut. For example there has
been no scripture since the days of the Apostles, miracles have ceased, and
Christians are scattered amongst thousands of sects and denominations.
Which is the true church? There is no sect or denomination in the world
today that fits!

The above is not necessarily true:
The biggest reason Christians are struggling is because the teachers need
to be taught all over again. and that is the biggest problem for us all.
We have the Holy Bible and that is all the scripture that is needed to Keep
building the Church.
No miracles have not ceased; we hear of them almost daily.
You will not find the Christian Church in any secular denomination sect on
earth.

God rains on us with his word. since the invention of the printing press
He has showered us abundently with His Written Word now for the last
five centureis.
We have no excuse today that we can not be watered by His Word.
Jesus is the Living Word of God
The Bible is the Written Word of God. So go figure if
we do not have the Word of God any more.
The Great Tribulation was fulfilled in 1798 and even before that
God's Word was open to the people and not supressed by the beast.
as it had been all during the 1260 Days of the Dark Ages.

The famine during the time of Elijah was mentioned by Jesus, who tells us
that it lasted for three years and six months. Jesus said to the Jews, "But
I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias,
when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine
was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save
unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow." [Luke
4:25-26]

That "heaven" that was shut up was the rain Clouds of the Sky.

The period of three and a half years is significant in prophecy. It is the
duration of the ministry of the two witnesses, and it corresponds to
the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and with the last half of the
70th week, the period in which Christ confirms his covenant with his people
[Daniel 9:24-27]. The covenant is the promise given to Abraham, that in his
seed, all nations will be blessed. Peter preached this, [Acts 3:25-26] and
Paul called it the gospel [Galatians 3:8].

Like I said That three and a half years is prophetic time. and needs to be
delt with as such. it does not mean any 3.5 literal years but much longer
then that.
You will see when and if you are able to receive the keys that unlock the
code the Prophesies are written in.
No it does not have any thing to do with any last half of a week in
some other prophecy that is not to be chopped up because of our
ignorance..
The 70 weeks of years went on from beginnig to end and was fulfilled
3.5 years after Jesus was crucified.
It was fulfilled in it's entirity with no pauses as some try to place on it.
Sorry it is not to be done and it does not call for that kind of application.

James also referred to the three and a half years of no rain in the days of
Elijah, as an example of faith. "Elias was a man subject to like passions
as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained
not on the earth by the space of three years and six months." [James 5:17]

He also prayed earnestly and it did rain again.

The three years and six months are symbolic of the age of the Church. It is
period of time the prophet Elijah was hidden from Israel, when there was no
rain. In the prophecy of Revelation 11, Elijah is a figure of the holy
Spirit of God. Just as Elijah held back the rain in Israel, God's spirit
has been lacking among Christians. Although men have sought for truth, and
for the word of God, they have failed to find it.

They fail to find it because they love a lie and hate the truth.
This is why God handed over the saints to the beast for the time,
Times and half time or the 42 months or the 1260 Prophetic day.
or the prophetic 3 and a half years or any other prophetic time mentioned.
REad the explanation between the parrable of the sower and the
explanation of the Sower to see God gives the word in parable form
and it is up to the wise to know what and how to unlock the meaning of it.

The prophet Zechariah said the spirit of grace and prayer will be poured
upon the house of David, which is the Church, those who believe in Christ
as their king. "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and
they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for
him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him,
as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." [Zechariah 12:10]

Do you have a clue who the Inhabitants of Jerusalem really are after it was
leveled in 70 AD and even before that time as Jesus was building his
New Jerusalem from the very day he was Resurrected from the grave?

The phrase "they shall look upon me who they have pierced" depicts people
coming to know Jesus Christ, who is our king, and the saviour of all.
People mourn when then they understand how misguided they were. At that
time, many turn to God! Just as Elijah in ancient times turned the hearts
of the people of Israel to the true God, the Spirit of God, hidden for
centuries, reveals God to us.

Zechariah's prophecy is parallel to Matthew 24:30, "And then shall appear
the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory."

If you only knew what you are posting it would be a miracle. as
you talk about miracles.

Jesus said all the tribes of the earth will see the glory of God, which is
when the Spirit of God is poured out upon his Church, the holy city where
Christ rules. This is what Malachi foretold. Elijah the prophet was to come
before the day of the Lord. And Jesus said that prophecy was fulfilled by
the ministry of John the Baptist. [Matthew 17:12] Malachi wrote, "Remember
ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all
Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the
prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he
shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the
children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
[Malachi 4:4-6]

Has Elijah came yet??
See Matthew 11:13-14 ff I think it is.
13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

The scriptures, and the holy spirit have been with the church, but as John's
prophecy shows, heaven has remained shut. And the two witnesses are
overcome and killed by the beast from the bottomless pit, and are like
corpses lying in the street. The great city, where their bodies are
exposed, is the world, which John identifies with Babylon, because Jesus
was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. Sodom and Egypt were places
from which God's people escaped. [Revelation 11:7-11]

No heaven has not been locked up.
Jesus is the Way to Heaven just do His Word that you fine in His Words
of the 2 Testaments of the 2 Witnesses.

The spirit of life from God revives the corpses of the two witnesses, and
causes them to stand up on their feet. When they hear a voice calling them
to come up to heaven, those who are in Christ begin to understand Bible
prophecy.

You can understand Bible Prophecy now if you open your minds Eye to it.
M,

Doug

User: "Doug"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	07 Jan 2008 09:40:34 PM

On January 7, 2008 03:07 pm, Misty <yardholler@charter.net> wrote:

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:UbOdnQ95hcEMJh3anZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@sentex.net...

<snip>

The period of three and a half years is significant in prophecy. It is
the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses, and it corresponds to
the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and with the last half of
the 70th week, the period in which Christ confirms his covenant with his
people
[Daniel 9:24-27]. The covenant is the promise given to Abraham, that in
[his
seed, all nations will be blessed. Peter preached this, [Acts 3:25-26]
and Paul called it the gospel [Galatians 3:8].

Like I said That three and a half years is prophetic time. and needs to
be
delt with as such. it does not mean any 3.5 literal years but much longer
then that.
You will see when and if you are able to receive the keys that unlock the
code the Prophesies are written in.
No it does not have any thing to do with any last half of a week in
some other prophecy that is not to be chopped up because of our
ignorance..
The 70 weeks of years went on from beginnig to end and was fulfilled
3.5 years after Jesus was crucified.
It was fulfilled in it's entirity with no pauses as some try to place on
it.

The prophet Daniel introduced the phrase "a time, times, and a half" in
Daniel 7:25. It is the period in which the saints are dominated by a little
horn, with "eyes like the eyes of a man" and "a mouth speaking great
things". The "eyes like the eyes of a man" represent a human viewpoint, as
opposed to a divine one. This condition still exists today. One cannot
believe that the saints are already blessed with the "unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God" that Paul refers to Ephesians 4:13.
So the influence of that sinister "little horn" remains. Perhaps this is why
there are thousands of denominations and sects, and the saints are
scattered. Daniel tells us the period "a time, times, and a half" lasts to
the completion of all his prophecies: "And I heard the man clothed in
linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right
hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever
that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have
accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things
shall be finished." [Daniel 12:7]
Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks points to the Messiah coming at the end of
the 69th week and confirming the covenant for one week, which is the 70th
and final week. It is divided into two parts by the crucifixion of Jesus.
The first part of the week was the ministry of Jesus, which was 3.5 years.
Jesus continues to confirm his covenant with those who believe the gospel,
and so the final half week has not ended. Therefore it must be a symbolic
3.5 years, and it is represented in ways that make no sense if they are
literally three and a half years, such as 1,260 days, in Revelation 11 &
12, and 1,290 days or 1,335 days in Daniel 12. None of these numbers are
equal to a literal three and a half years. They all require a month of 30
days, but real months are a little less. They all work out to 3.5 years
where different combinations of leap years (of 13 months) and regular years
(of 12 months) are involved. In the ancient Hebrew calendar there were
years of either 12 or 13 months, that depended on observation of the phases
of the moon. The "time, times and a half" to the end of all the prophecies
of Daniel, mentioned in Daniel 12:7 is expressed as:
1,290 days = 13 * 30 + 2 * 12 * 30 + ½ * 12 * 30
1,335 days = 12 * 30 + 2 * 13 * 30 + ½ * 13 * 30
1,260 days = 12 * 30 + 2 * 12 * 30 + ½ * 12 * 30
These all represent the same symbolic period, also called a "time, times and
a half" in Daniel 7:25 and 42 months in Revelation 11:2. It is best
understood as "the remaining time of the church" in the prophecies in
Revelation.
Doug
.

User: "Misty"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	08 Jan 2008 03:45:45 PM

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:qKidndtUVOApbR_anZ2dnUVZ_oKhnZ2d@sentex.net...

On January 7, 2008 03:07 pm, Misty <yardholler@charter.net> wrote:

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:UbOdnQ95hcEMJh3anZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@sentex.net...

<snip>

The period of three and a half years is significant in prophecy. It is
the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses, and it corresponds to
the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and with the last half of
the 70th week, the period in which Christ confirms his covenant with his
people
[Daniel 9:24-27]. The covenant is the promise given to Abraham, that in
[his
seed, all nations will be blessed. Peter preached this, [Acts 3:25-26]
and Paul called it the gospel [Galatians 3:8].

Like I said That three and a half years is prophetic time. and needs to
be
delt with as such. it does not mean any 3.5 literal years but much longer
then that.
You will see when and if you are able to receive the keys that unlock the
code the Prophesies are written in.
No it does not have any thing to do with any last half of a week in
some other prophecy that is not to be chopped up because of our
ignorance..
The 70 weeks of years went on from beginnig to end and was fulfilled
3.5 years after Jesus was crucified.
It was fulfilled in it's entirity with no pauses as some try to place on
it.

God introdueced that [ "a time, times, and a half"] not Daniel
and it is prophetic time period. you will als find it in Daniel 12 and
Revelation 12.
We must deal with it as a prophetic time and not a literal time period.
It is also broken down into 42 months, and 1260 days, all prophetic
time periods that are meant as the wise will deal with them as The Lord
Provides Understanding to the wise.
You are right it is human view points that are apposed to all that is truth.
You are also right it is still with us today and it is up to the Lord to be
cutting it to pieces but only on a God timeline. We do not know
when that will be exactly but it is a prophecy that is to be fulfilled yet
in the future.
That little Hord did receive it's "deadly wound and that wound also was
healed. so that much of the Prophecy has been fulfilled so far.

So the influence of that sinister "little horn" remains. Perhaps this is why
there are thousands of denominations and sects, and the saints are
scattered. Daniel tells us the period "a time, times, and a half" lasts to
the completion of all his prophecies: "And I heard the man clothed in
linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right
hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever
that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have
accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things
shall be finished." [Daniel 12:7]

7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters
of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven,
and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times,
and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power
of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
It does not say "lasts to the completion of all his prophecies"
unless you have a different Bible then I am using.
(KJV) AND (NIV).

Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks points to the Messiah coming at the end of
the 69th week and confirming the covenant for one week, which is the 70th
and final week. It is divided into two parts by the crucifixion of Jesus.

It is not divided it is talking about what was to happen in that last week of
the prophecy.
"In the middle of that week He would be cut off ". That is not to say
the Prophecy is cut off.
3 days after He was cut off he came back to life and right away started
to confirm that Covenant with His choosen New Bride,
it was at the end of the last half of that week God sent out Paul to the
Gentiles to include them into that New Jerusalem, "His City that is build
but not with Human hands. ae. 34 AD. see it being done in Luke 24
and John 20.

The first part of the week was the ministry of Jesus, which was 3.5 years.
Jesus continues to confirm his covenant with those who believe the gospel,
and so the final half week has not ended. Therefore it must be a symbolic
3.5 years, and it is represented in ways that make no sense if they are
literally three and a half years, such as 1,260 days, in Revelation 11 &
12, and 1,290 days or 1,335 days in Daniel 12. None of these numbers are

You are mixing and trying to match too many prophesies into one though.
Separate the prophesies and apply the Kes and you will be able to
put those prophetic time in the time line of History and you will
see there is not to be any gap in the Daniel 9 prophecy which is
different then the end time prophecy of time, times and half time",
they are 2 different prophesies that are not to be combined in to one.

equal to a literal three and a half years. They all require a month of 30
days, but real months are a little less. They all work out to 3.5 years
where different combinations of leap years (of 13 months) and regular years
(of 12 months) are involved. In the ancient Hebrew calendar there were
years of either 12 or 13 months, that depended on observation of the phases
of the moon. The "time, times and a half" to the end of all the prophecies
of Daniel, mentioned in Daniel 12:7 is expressed as:

1,290 days = 13 * 30 + 2 * 12 * 30 + � * 12 * 30
1,335 days = 12 * 30 + 2 * 13 * 30 + � * 13 * 30
1,260 days = 12 * 30 + 2 * 12 * 30 + � * 12 * 30

My fellow Christian! those "day" you have up there posted will become
"literal years" when you apply the keys to it.
Now what length of time will that be?
See Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:4-6 it is given 3 times so the wise will
know what it means and how to apply it.

These all represent the same symbolic period, also called a "time, times and
a half" in Daniel 7:25 and 42 months in Revelation 11:2. It is best
understood as "the remaining time of the church" in the prophecies in
Revelation.

As I said you are mixing and matching too many prophesies into one.
With each Prophecy you use see if you can find a beginning date for it
or and ending date for it. If you can do that you will see you are dealing with
too many prophesies all at one time and trying to jam them into one
prophetic time period.
This is not to be done Please!
M,

Doug

User: "Doug"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	08 Jan 2008 06:45:31 AM

On January 8, 2008 04:45 pm, Misty <yardholler@charter.net> wrote:

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:qKidndtUVOApbR_anZ2dnUVZ_oKhnZ2d@sentex.net...

On January 7, 2008 03:07 pm, Misty <yardholler@charter.net> wrote:

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:UbOdnQ95hcEMJh3anZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@sentex.net...

<snip>

The period of three and a half years is significant in prophecy. It is
the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses, and it corresponds
to the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and with the last half
of the 70th week, the period in which Christ confirms his covenant with
his people
[Daniel 9:24-27]. The covenant is the promise given to Abraham, that in
[his
seed, all nations will be blessed. Peter preached this, [Acts 3:25-26]
and Paul called it the gospel [Galatians 3:8].

Like I said That three and a half years is prophetic time. and needs to
be
delt with as such. it does not mean any 3.5 literal years but much
longer then that.
You will see when and if you are able to receive the keys that unlock
the code the Prophesies are written in.
No it does not have any thing to do with any last half of a week in
some other prophecy that is not to be chopped up because of our
ignorance..
The 70 weeks of years went on from beginnig to end and was fulfilled
3.5 years after Jesus was crucified.
It was fulfilled in it's entirity with no pauses as some try to place
on it.

God introdueced that [ "a time, times, and a half"] not Daniel
and it is prophetic time period. you will als find it in Daniel 12 and
Revelation 12.
We must deal with it as a prophetic time and not a literal time period.
It is also broken down into 42 months, and 1260 days, all prophetic
time periods that are meant as the wise will deal with them as The Lord
Provides Understanding to the wise.

You are right it is human view points that are apposed to all that is
truth.

You are also right it is still with us today and it is up to the Lord to
be
cutting it to pieces but only on a God timeline. We do not know
when that will be exactly but it is a prophecy that is to be fulfilled yet
in the future.
That little Hord did receive it's "deadly wound and that wound also was
healed. so that much of the Prophecy has been fulfilled so far.

So the influence of that sinister "little horn" remains. Perhaps this is
why there are thousands of denominations and sects, and the saints are
scattered. Daniel tells us the period "a time, times, and a half" lasts
to the completion of all his prophecies: "And I heard the man clothed in
linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right
hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever
that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have
accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things
shall be finished." [Daniel 12:7]

7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters
of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto
heaven,
and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times,
and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power
of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

It does not say "lasts to the completion of all his prophecies"
unless you have a different Bible then I am using.
(KJV) AND (NIV).

Well you need to look at the question that was asked, which this is the
answer to. Daniel was told to "shut up the words, and seal the book". Then
he heard one of the messengers ask "How long shall it be to the end of
these wonders?" [Daniel 12:6] That was the question to which the angel
raised his hands toward heaven and swore by him that lives for ever and
ever "it shall be for a time, times, and an half." It is given great
prominence in this chapter and the same time period is expressed by the
cryptic numbers 1,290 days and 1,335 days which also point to a symbolic
three years and a half.

Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks points to the Messiah coming at the end
of the 69th week and confirming the covenant for one week, which is the
70th and final week. It is divided into two parts by the crucifixion of
Jesus.

The 70th week includes no only the crucifixion, but in the midst of the week
the sacrifice and oblation cease, and the desolating abomination is set up.
The sacrifices and oblation ceased in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed
and the city was taken by the Romans. So the prophecy has to span a longer
period than 7 literal years.

it was at the end of the last half of that week God sent out Paul to the
Gentiles to include them into that New Jerusalem, "His City that is build
but not with Human hands. ae. 34 AD. see it being done in Luke 24
and John 20.

Incorrect, and Paul does not make such a claim. There is no indication in
the entire New Testament that Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled
during the first century AD. The Apostles would have recorded such a
significant event, but none of them did. Instead, they identified the last
half-week of the 70th week with the remaining time of the church, and
the "time, times, and an half" that John refers to in Revelation.

literally three and a half years, such as 1,260 days, in Revelation 11 &
12, and 1,290 days or 1,335 days in Daniel 12. None of these numbers are

It is true there is no gap in the 70 weeks as Dispensationalists claim, but
neither was it completely fulfilled in the 1st century AD as the Preterists
say. Yet the 70th week spans all the time from the beginning of Christ's
ministry to the coming resurrection.
Doug
.

User: "Misty"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	09 Jan 2008 12:56:28 PM

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:AI-dnay6R7_s7R7anZ2dnUVZ_qygnZ2d@sentex.net...

On January 8, 2008 04:45 pm, Misty <yardholler@charter.net> wrote:

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:qKidndtUVOApbR_anZ2dnUVZ_oKhnZ2d@sentex.net...

snip<

God introdueced that [ "a time, times, and a half"] not Daniel
and it is prophetic time period. you will als find it in Daniel 12 and
Revelation 12.
We must deal with it as a prophetic time and not a literal time period.
It is also broken down into 42 months, and 1260 days, all prophetic
time periods that are meant as the wise will deal with them as The Lord
Provides Understanding to the wise.

You are right it is human view points that are apposed to all that is
truth.

You are also right it is still with us today and it is up to the Lord to
be
cutting it to pieces but only on a God timeline. We do not know
when that will be exactly but it is a prophecy that is to be fulfilled yet
in the future.
That little Horn did receive it's "deadly wound and that wound also was
healed. so that much of the Prophecy has been fulfilled so far.

So the influence of that sinister "little horn" remains. Perhaps this is
why there are thousands of denominations and sects, and the saints are
scattered. Daniel tells us the period "a time, times, and a half" lasts
to the completion of all his prophecies: "And I heard the man clothed in
linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right
hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever
that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have
accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things
shall be finished." [Daniel 12:7]

7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters
of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto
heaven,
and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times,
and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power
of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

It does not say "lasts to the completion of all his prophecies"
unless you have a different Bible then I am using.
(KJV) AND (NIV).

I assume the end of these wonders would be ending at the end of the
"time, times and a half..
In a short that would time would expire at the end of the Great Tribulation
for that is when the Wound was delivered.
As for sealing up the words and seal the book that was pretty much in
Daniels life time. as also Daniel stated no one had a clue to what it all meant
and that was because it was future prophesies at that time and there
was not a thing to apply it too until some of those prophesies were fulfilled.
I do know that the 1290 days prophecy was to start when Jesus was crucified.
but I am not sure when the 1335 days prophecy was to start.

Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks points to the Messiah coming at the end
of the 69th week and confirming the covenant for one week, which is the
70th and final week. It is divided into two parts by the crucifixion of
Jesus.

When Jesus Died on the cross the Veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom
and then every one could see right into the Holy of Holies in the temple and that is
what put an end to daily sacrfice. That was 31 AD.
If they still did the daily sacrfices after that they would have had to sew up that
veil.
The prophecy was only 70 weeks but the scope of what was to come went past
that time. That is why I am not sure how to add in the 1290 days and the
1335 days that were also mentioned in Chapter 12 or if it is to be added to
that that way or not.
The distruction was an added in thing but it does not say it would be part
of the 70 weeks but went beyond that time frame.
Jesus was still working even harder after he resurrected then he did before
as the Gospels show, I think.

It was not up to Paul to make that claim.
That claim is told in the Book of The Acts Of the Apostles and Paul is in
there getting his comupances.
There is not one thing in the prophecy that says it was to stop in the middle
of the week just because the Prince was cut off either but many love to
run with such bunk.
There is not one thing in that prophecy that says any thing about
the time, times and a half.
Stop trying to add that in.
That is part of a different prophecy all together.
IF you do want to add something in you can also add the 2300 evenings
and mornings because that was the first part of that 70 weeks prophecy.
but it did not add to the lenght of time for the prophecy itself at all.

literally three and a half years, such as 1,260 days, in Revelation 11 &
12, and 1,290 days or 1,335 days in Daniel 12. None of these numbers are

It goes 3 and a half years past the Resurrction is all and what happened
at that time is when God inclueded the Gentiles by sending Paul (one
apostled) to the gentile nations beyond the Children of Israel or the Jews.
That made God also to be adding in The Gentiles as they came to believe
one at a time. and it also incluede the Jews too but after that they too had
to come one at a time and not assume they are a shew in like they did before
the Crucifixtion and resurrection of the Messiah.
M,

Doug

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	07 Jan 2008 12:55:21 PM

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:07:06 -0800, "Misty"
<yardholler@charter.net> said the following:

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:UbOdnQ95hcEMJh3anZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@sentex.net...

And it happened for 3.5 years and is over with.
Oh wait! I'm sorry! I forgot! You need it to be
about *you*!
--
"Why is it socially reprehensible for a man to leave
a baby fatherless, but courageous, even admirable,
for a woman to have a baby whom she knows will
be so?" - Penelope Leach
.

User: "Mark T moi@home000whatever174"
Title: Re: How Doug's widdle brain is shut	06 Jan 2008 02:58:00 PM

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wroteth:
.... whatever ....
Can we stone you if you are wrong???????
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I
have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other
gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall
we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in
the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the
thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it
presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deut18:20 - 22:
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: How Doug's widdle brain is shut	06 Jan 2008 05:36:35 PM

"Mark T" <moi@home000whatever174> wrote in message
news:478140dd$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wroteth:

... whatever ....

Can we stone you if you are wrong???????

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I
have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other
gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How
shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet
speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to
pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet
hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Deut18:20 - 22:

Is more stoned possible?
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><

--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.

My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

User: "Doug"
Title: A prophecy that fits Mark to a T!	06 Jan 2008 03:31:51 PM

On January 6, 2008 03:58 pm, Mark T <moi@home000whatever174> wrote:
Hey Mark, this one fits you to a "T"!
Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations
shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer
their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them,
and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two
prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Wow!!! That's U mate!
Doug

User: ""
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	06 Jan 2008 04:41:29 PM

On Jan 6, 10:29=A0pm, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:

Scripture shows that heaven has been shut, for many centuries. John wrote =

the two witnesses, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in
the days of their prophecy." [Revelation 11:6] The duration of their
prophecy is 1,260 days. [Revelation 11:3] These 1,260 days are a symbolic
period of three years and a half, that represent the age of the Church.

Jesus identified two things that would testify of him, the Spirit of God
[John 15:26], and the Word of God [John 5:39]. They are therefore two
witnesses, as one who testifies is a witness, and these two things can be
identified with the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

How has heaven been shut? The "rain" is symbolic of the word of God, and t=

gifts of the Spirit of God to his saints. As rain causes crops and other
plants to grow and provide us with food, the Spirit of God causes us to
develop and grow spiritually. =A0Isaiah compared God's word with rain: "Fo=

as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not
thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that i=

may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be
that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it=
shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing
whereto I sent it." [Isaiah 55:10-11]

Instead of growing spiritually, many Christians today are struggling, and
one reason for this is because heaven has been shut. For example there has=
been no scripture since the days of the Apostles, miracles have ceased, an=

Christians are scattered amongst thousands of sects and denominations.
Which is the true church? There is no sect or denomination in the world
today that fits!

Can you expand that last paragraph a little? I couldn't correlate
spiritual growth with the explanation that follows.
On no true church today: have you surveyed the churches in other parts
of the world like Africa or Asia?
If there aren't any true church near where you live, I take it you
aren't a regular church attendee. Would you prepared to travel if
there is one?

As the prophet Elijah held back the rain in ancient Israel, the Spirit of
God has been held back from Christians, since the days of the Apostles, an=

there has been a long famine of "hearing the word of God." This famine was=
foretold by the prophet Amos: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst=
for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander fro=

sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro=
to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it." [Amos 8:11-12]

The famine during the time of Elijah was mentioned by Jesus, who tells us
that it lasted for three years and six months. Jesus said to the Jews, "Bu=

I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias,
when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine
was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save
unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow." [Luke
4:25-26]

The period of three and a half years is significant in prophecy. It is the=
duration of the ministry of the two witnesses, and it corresponds to
the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and with the last half of the=
70th week, the period in which Christ confirms his covenant with his peopl=

[Daniel 9:24-27]. The covenant is the promise given to Abraham, that in hi=

seed, all nations will be blessed. Peter preached this, [Acts 3:25-26] and=
Paul called it the gospel [Galatians 3:8].

James also referred to the three and a half years of no rain in the days o=

Elijah, as an example of faith. "Elias was a man subject to like passions
as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained
not on the earth by the space of three years and six months." [James 5:17]=

The three years and six months are symbolic of the age of the Church. It i=

period of time the prophet Elijah was hidden from Israel, when there was n=

rain. In the prophecy of Revelation 11, Elijah is a figure of the holy
Spirit of God. Just as Elijah held back the rain in Israel, God's spirit
has been lacking among Christians. Although men have sought for truth, and=
for the word of God, they have failed to find it.

The prophet Zechariah said the spirit of grace and prayer will be poured
upon the house of David, which is the Church, those who believe in Christ
as their king. "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and
they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for
him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him,=
as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." [Zechariah 12:10]

The phrase "they shall look upon me who they have pierced" depicts people
coming to know Jesus Christ, who is our king, and the saviour of all.
People mourn when then they understand how misguided they were. At that
time, many turn to God! Just as Elijah in ancient times turned the hearts
of the people of Israel to the true God, the Spirit of God, hidden for
centuries, reveals God to us.

Zechariah's prophecy is parallel to Matthew 24:30, "And then shall appear
the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the=
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory."

Jesus said all the tribes of the earth will see the glory of God, which is=
when the Spirit of God is poured out upon his Church, the holy city where
Christ rules. This is what Malachi foretold. Elijah the prophet was to com=

before the day of the Lord. And Jesus said that prophecy was fulfilled by
the ministry of John the Baptist. [Matthew 17:12] Malachi wrote, "Remember=
ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for al=

Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah th=

prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And h=

shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the
children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
[Malachi 4:4-6]

The scriptures, and the holy spirit have been with the church, but as John=

prophecy shows, heaven has remained shut. And the two witnesses are
overcome and killed by the beast from the bottomless pit, and are like
corpses lying in the street. The great city, where their bodies are
exposed, is the world, which John identifies with Babylon, because Jesus
was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. Sodom and Egypt were places
from which God's people escaped. [Revelation 11:7-11]

The spirit of life from God revives the corpses of the two witnesses, and
causes them to stand up on their feet. When they hear a voice calling them=
to come up to heaven, those who are in Christ begin to understand Bible
prophecy.

Doug

User: "Doug"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	06 Jan 2008 05:30:08 PM

On January 6, 2008 05:41 pm,

> wrote:

On Jan 6, 10:29 pm, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:

Can you expand that last paragraph a little? I couldn't correlate
spiritual growth with the explanation that follows.

I think having a better understanding of Bible prophecy would encourage
Christians and strengthen their faith, don't you?

On no true church today: have you surveyed the churches in other parts
of the world like Africa or Asia?

I did not mean to say there is no true Church! Of course there is, but
Christians are scattered, and they are found in many sects and
denominations. Some have no affiliation at all. There is not a single group
or sect or denomination that is the "true Church" although some may claim
to be. And scripture shows that some who call themselves "Christian" are
really not, but they are "uncircumcised in heart" and so are called
Gentiles in John's prophecy. They occupy the outer court of the temple in
Revelation 11:2, while the temple itself mentioned in verse 1 represents
the Church of God. And John says they "tread under foot" the holy city,
which is the Church. Curiously, those people like to "trample" and dominate
those who believe!

If there aren't any true church near where you live, I take it you
aren't a regular church attendee. Would you prepared to travel if
there is one?

As I said, no single sect or denomination is THE Church, but there are many
Christians, and Jesus said, "For where two or three are gathered together
in my name, there am I in the midst of them." [Matthew 18:20] Of course I
would travel to fellowship with Christians when necessary.
Doug

As the prophet Elijah held back the rain in ancient Israel, the Spirit of
God has been held back from Christians, since the days of the Apostles,
and there has been a long famine of "hearing the word of God." This
famine was foretold by the prophet Amos: "Behold, the days come, saith
the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of
bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And
they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not
find it." [Amos 8:11-12]

The famine during the time of Elijah was mentioned by Jesus, who tells us
that it lasted for three years and six months. Jesus said to the Jews,
"But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of
Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great
famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent,
save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow." [Luke
4:25-26]

The period of three and a half years is significant in prophecy. It is
the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses, and it corresponds to
the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and with the last half of
the 70th week, the period in which Christ confirms his covenant with his
people
[Daniel 9:24-27]. The covenant is the promise given to Abraham, that in
[his
seed, all nations will be blessed. Peter preached this, [Acts 3:25-26]
and Paul called it the gospel [Galatians 3:8].

James also referred to the three and a half years of no rain in the days
of Elijah, as an example of faith. "Elias was a man subject to like
passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and
it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months."
[James 5:17]

The three years and six months are symbolic of the age of the Church. It
is period of time the prophet Elijah was hidden from Israel, when there
was no rain. In the prophecy of Revelation 11, Elijah is a figure of the
holy Spirit of God. Just as Elijah held back the rain in Israel, God's
spirit has been lacking among Christians. Although men have sought for
truth, and for the word of God, they have failed to find it.

The prophet Zechariah said the spirit of grace and prayer will be poured
upon the house of David, which is the Church, those who believe in Christ
as their king. "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and
they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for
him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for
him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." [Zechariah 12:10]

The phrase "they shall look upon me who they have pierced" depicts people
coming to know Jesus Christ, who is our king, and the saviour of all.
People mourn when then they understand how misguided they were. At that
time, many turn to God! Just as Elijah in ancient times turned the hearts
of the people of Israel to the true God, the Spirit of God, hidden for
centuries, reveals God to us.

Zechariah's prophecy is parallel to Matthew 24:30, "And then shall appear
the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of
the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
of heaven with power and great glory."

Jesus said all the tribes of the earth will see the glory of God, which
is when the Spirit of God is poured out upon his Church, the holy city
where Christ rules. This is what Malachi foretold. Elijah the prophet was
to come before the day of the Lord. And Jesus said that prophecy was
fulfilled by the ministry of John the Baptist. [Matthew 17:12] Malachi
wrote, "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto
him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I
will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and
dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to
the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come
and smite the earth with a curse."
[Malachi 4:4-6]

The scriptures, and the holy spirit have been with the church, but as
John's prophecy shows, heaven has remained shut. And the two witnesses
are overcome and killed by the beast from the bottomless pit, and are
like corpses lying in the street. The great city, where their bodies are
exposed, is the world, which John identifies with Babylon, because Jesus
was crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. Sodom and Egypt were places
from which God's people escaped. [Revelation 11:7-11]

The spirit of life from God revives the corpses of the two witnesses, and
causes them to stand up on their feet. When they hear a voice calling
them to come up to heaven, those who are in Christ begin to understand
Bible prophecy.

Doug

User: ""
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	06 Jan 2008 06:14:51 PM

On Jan 7, 10:30=A0am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:

On January 6, 2008 05:41 pm,

> wrote:

On Jan 6, 10:29=A0pm, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:

Scripture shows that heaven has been shut, for many centuries. John wro=

of the two witnesses, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain no=

in the days of their prophecy." [Revelation 11:6] The duration of their=
prophecy is 1,260 days. [Revelation 11:3] These 1,260 days are a symbol=

period of three years and a half, that represent the age of the Church.=

Jesus identified two things that would testify of him, the Spirit of Go=

[John 15:26], and the Word of God [John 5:39]. They are therefore two
witnesses, as one who testifies is a witness, and these two things can =

identified with the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

How has heaven been shut? The "rain" is symbolic of the word of God, an=

the gifts of the Spirit of God to his saints. As rain causes crops and
other plants to grow and provide us with food, the Spirit of God causes=
us to develop and grow spiritually. =A0Isaiah compared God's word with
rain: "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and
returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring fort=

and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So=
shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return
unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall=
prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." [Isaiah 55:10-11]

Instead of growing spiritually, many Christians today are struggling, a=

one reason for this is because heaven has been shut. For example there
has been no scripture since the days of the Apostles, miracles have
ceased, and Christians are scattered amongst thousands of sects and
denominations. Which is the true church? There is no sect or denominati=

in the world today that fits!

Can you expand that last paragraph a little? =A0I couldn't correlate
spiritual growth with the explanation that follows.

I think having a better understanding of Bible prophecy would encourage
Christians and strengthen their faith, don't you?

On no true church today: have you surveyed the churches in other parts
of the world like Africa or Asia?

or sect or denomination that is the "true Church" although some may claim
to be. ...

The Orthodox say that they have continuous lineage back to the
Apostles

... And scripture shows that some who call themselves "Christian" are
really not, but they are "uncircumcised in heart" and so are called
Gentiles in John's prophecy. ...

You mean the nations. 'Gentiles' doesn't occur in Revelation.

... They occupy the outer court of the temple in
Revelation 11:2, while the temple itself mentioned in verse 1 represents
the Church of God. And John says they "tread under foot" the holy city,
which is the Church. Curiously, those people like to "trample" and dominat=

those who believe!

You lost me there. What you are saying is that the false-church are
Gentiles while the true chuch are Jews.

If there aren't any true church near where you live, I take it you
aren't a regular church attendee. =A0Would you prepared to travel if
there is one?

As I said, no single sect or denomination is THE Church, but there are man=

Christians, and Jesus said, "For where two or three are gathered together
in my name, there am I in the midst of them." [Matthew 18:20] Of course I
would travel to fellowship with Christians when necessary. =A0

I take it you aren't churched anywhere at the moment.

Doug

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	07 Jan 2008 08:29:35 PM

<roymock@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c16bc6f0-8a29-4e8e-83f2-95e19e115d57@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 10:30 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:

On January 6, 2008 05:41 pm,

> wrote:

The Orthodox say that they have continuous lineage back to the
Apostles

That's an unfortunate boast. It's as though they haven't heard: He is
alive. We have direct lineage to Christ, Himself.
<Snip>
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
.

User: ""
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	07 Jan 2008 10:08:40 PM

On Jan 8, 1:29=A0pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:c16bc6f0-8a29-4e8e-83f2-95e19e115d57@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 10:30 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:> On January 6, 2008 05:4=

1 pm,

> wrote:

The Orthodox say that they have continuous lineage back to the
Apostles

That's an unfortunate boast. It's as though they haven't heard: =A0He is
alive. We have direct lineage to Christ, Himself.

=46rom memory: their key verse would be Eph 2:19-20. They have a better
trace of apostolic lineage, while we reformed Protestants have made a
historical break.

<Snip>

His,

--http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak

ho echon ota akoueto =A0 =A0 =A0 Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a=
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	08 Jan 2008 01:28:33 AM

<roymock@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:296792e6-e96f-4206-8ea8-959df3e9d488@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 8, 1:29 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:c16bc6f0-8a29-4e8e-83f2-95e19e115d57@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 10:30 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:> On January 6, 2008
05:41 pm,

> wrote:

<snip to point>

The Orthodox say that they have continuous lineage back to the
Apostles

That's an unfortunate boast. It's as though they haven't heard: He is
alive. We have direct lineage to Christ, Himself.

From memory: their key verse would be Eph 2:19-20. They have a better
trace of apostolic lineage, while we reformed Protestants have made a
historical break.
Reply I understand what they are saying, and we were with them
before the split sharing the same lineage. But what I was addressing was
their speaking as though He were either dead and could no more appoint and
anoint.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
.

User: ""
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	08 Jan 2008 05:03:39 PM

On Jan 8, 6:28=A0pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:296792e6-e96f-4206-8ea8-959df3e9d488@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 8, 1:29 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:c16bc6f0-8a29-4e8e-83f2-95e19e115d57@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...=
On Jan 7, 10:30 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:> On January 6, 2008
05:41 pm,

> wrote:

The Orthodox say that they have continuous lineage back to the
Apostles

That's an unfortunate boast. It's as though they haven't heard: He is
alive. We have direct lineage to Christ, Himself.

From memory: their key verse would be Eph 2:19-20. They have a better
trace of apostolic lineage, while we reformed Protestants have made a
historical break.

Reply =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0I understand what they are saying, and we wer=

e with them

before the split sharing the same lineage. =A0But what I was addressing wa=

their speaking as though He were either dead and could no more appoint and=
anoint.

Isn't appointment in the hands of men (e.g. Tit 1:5)? It could
explain how there can be "bishops and deacons" (Phil 1:1) in some
places.

His,

--http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak

ho echon ota akoueto =A0 =A0 =A0 Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a=
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	09 Jan 2008 03:55:43 AM

<roymock@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5014fe2a-d8b3-4a86-b18c-19b7c850cca9@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 8, 6:28 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:296792e6-e96f-4206-8ea8-959df3e9d488@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 8, 1:29 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:c16bc6f0-8a29-4e8e-83f2-95e19e115d57@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 10:30 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:> On January 6, 2008
05:41 pm,

> wrote:

The Orthodox say that they have continuous lineage back to the
Apostles

That's an unfortunate boast. It's as though they haven't heard: He is
alive. We have direct lineage to Christ, Himself.

Isn't appointment in the hands of men (e.g. Tit 1:5)? It could
explain how there can be "bishops and deacons" (Phil 1:1) in some
places.
Reply Yes, but as the head of the church He can complement or
countermand the decisions of the men. When Judas killed himself, the
remaining apostles chose Matthias, the Lord chose Paul.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
.

User: ""
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	09 Jan 2008 08:33:06 AM

On Jan 9, 8:55=A0pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:5014fe2a-d8b3-4a86-b18c-19b7c850cca9@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 8, 6:28 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:296792e6-e96f-4206-8ea8-959df3e9d488@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...=
On Jan 8, 1:29 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:c16bc6f0-8a29-4e8e-83f2-95e19e115d57@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com.=

...

On Jan 7, 10:30 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:> On January 6, 2008
05:41 pm,

> wrote:

The Orthodox say that they have continuous lineage back to the
Apostles

That's an unfortunate boast. It's as though they haven't heard: He is
alive. We have direct lineage to Christ, Himself.

From memory: their key verse would be Eph 2:19-20. They have a better
trace of apostolic lineage, while we reformed Protestants have made a
historical break.

Reply I understand what they are saying, and we were with them
before the split sharing the same lineage. But what I was addressing was=
their speaking as though He were either dead and could no more appoint a=

anoint.

Isn't appointment in the hands of men (e.g. Tit 1:5)? =A0It could
explain how there can be "bishops and deacons" (Phil 1:1) in some
places.

Reply =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Yes, but as =A0the head of the church He can =

complement or

countermand the decisions of the men. When Judas killed himself, the
remaining apostles chose Matthias, the Lord chose Paul.

Aye. Good answer.
Cheers.

User: "Misty"
Title: Re: How heaven is shut	07 Jan 2008 03:39:01 PM

<roymock@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c16bc6f0-8a29-4e8e-83f2-95e19e115d57@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 10:30 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:

On January 6, 2008 05:41 pm,

> wrote:

On Jan 6, 10:29 pm, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:

How has heaven been shut? The "rain" is symbolic of the word of God, and
the gifts of the Spirit of God to his saints. As rain causes crops and
other plants to grow and provide us with food, the Spirit of God causes
us to develop and grow spiritually. Isaiah compared God's word with
rain: "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and
returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth
and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So
shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return
unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall
prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." [Isaiah 55:10-11]

Instead of growing spiritually, many Christians today are struggling, and
one reason for this is because heaven has been shut. For example there
has been no scripture since the days of the Apostles, miracles have
ceased, and Christians are scattered amongst thousands of sects and
denominations. Which is the true church? There is no sect or denomination
in the world today that fits!

Can you expand that last paragraph a little? I couldn't correlate
spiritual growth with the explanation that follows.

I think having a better understanding of Bible prophecy would encourage
Christians and strengthen their faith, don't you?

I dunno. I'm not sure what is ment by 'spiritual growth' anyway, or
how this is measured. The only passages that come to mind that comes
close to it have nothing to do with prophesy vis-a-vis Eph 4:10-16 and
2Pet 3:18,
10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to
fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets,
some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people
for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach
unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining
to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here
and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their
deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up
into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held
together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part
does its work
18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be
glory both now and forever! Amen.
Spiritual Groth is how much you retain from you Bible studies and put in
practice that is not secular Doctrin.
The more you understand Gods Word the more you will be growing
in your faith.

On no true church today: have you surveyed the churches in other parts
of the world like Africa or Asia?

The Orthodox say that they have continuous lineage back to the
Apostles
Christians are adopted into Abranam and His Righteousness.

... And scripture shows that some who call themselves "Christian" are
really not, but they are "uncircumcised in heart" and so are called
Gentiles in John's prophecy. ...

You mean the nations. 'Gentiles' doesn't occur in Revelation.
real believing Christians that have been enlightened by Jesus
(raptured) are the New Jerusalem and a Bride of the Lamb ECT. ECt.

You lost me there. What you are saying is that the false-church are
Gentiles while the true chuch are Jews.
The False Church is only Wolves in Sheeps clothing leading the
sheep to the slaughter.

If there aren't any true church near wh