| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"St Dog the Wet" |
| Date: |
16 Jun 2006 08:41:05 PM |
| Object: |
HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME
What We Can Not Know
Let's get this clearly understood: No one can know the day or
hour of the Lord's coming.
However, that should suggest a question, or two: Is recognizing
the "Generation" the same as knowing the day and hour? Is knowing
"When" the same as knowing the day and hour? Paul said, "But ye,
brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you
as a thief." And, "As you see the day approaching..." 1 Thes 5:4,
Heb 10:25. While we cannot know the exact time, we can know
enough that that day will not surprise us like a thief, and we
will see it approaching.
In fact, Jesus said, "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for
looking after those things which are coming on the earth..." Luke
21:25-26. So even those who reject God will see the end coming,
and "their hearts failing them for fear," because of those things
which they see coming on the earth!
Therefore, the truth is somewhere between "NOT knowning when,"
and "Knowing the day and hour." Actually, knowing the general
time, for example, the generation, is not the same as knowing the
day and hour. There are examples of generations who did know what
prophecy would be fulfilled in thier lifetime.
What is time?
Time is the motion of all God's creation toward the conclusion He
has predetermined. The passage of time can be seen in the
transition from one event to the next event in that sequence of
events which climaxes in the conclusion predetermined by God.
Mechanical Clocks
Mechanical clocks were not available to Daniel or John. We, on
the other hand, have come to depend completely on the artificial
method of counting hours and minutes, and we think of this as
"time." It is not "time." Worse, is that we have become dependant
on that pointer moving in a circle to tell us the exact minute or
hour--and we use that to know "when" events (like the train
arriving) should occur.
We need to acknowledge that this is an artificial method, and has
nothing to do with scripture. It is an imitation of the motion of
the earth on its axis. The "machine" has several wheels, and
these wheels have teeth which react with a pendulum or a spring,
working to drive a "pointer" in a circle. These wheels and the
pointers imitate the motion of the earth on its axis, so that
when your location on earth points toward the sun, the hands
point toward "noon." This imitation has nothing to do with the
passage of time except to serve as an artificial counter. As I
said, it imitates the motion of the earth on it axis, and nothing
more. This mechanical method of "keeping time" was not known to
the Apostles.
How the Apostles Knew When
We need to understand the method the Apostles used, and what they
meant by the question, "When will these things be?" We will admit
first, that they could not have meant, "When, according to the
clock," since they did not have mechanical clocks. Well, then
what did they mean?
The key is, "sequence of events."
We know something of history. History as it occurred before we
were born, and history as it has occurred in our lifetime. If we
will give it some thought, we can see that all historical events
are a "chain of events." There was, or is, no event in human
history which was/is an isolated event, without cause or
consequence. There are no events in history which are unrelated
to the events which preceded it, or followed it. All human events
are a part of a sequence of events.
In our recent history: (current events,) the invasion of Iraq was
an event which was preceded by other events. If you've saved your
news papers for the past two years you can re-read the news
articles describing the sequence of events. The invasion of Iraq
is an event which is part of the sequence which caused it. and
will certainly follow it.
What Did Jesus Mean By Day and Hour?
Since the people of His generation did not have mechanical
clocks, what did Jesus mean when He used the words "day or hour?"
Consider the examples of how these terms were used by Jesus
himself. "Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great
is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter
was made whole from that very hour." Mt 15:28 In this example we
must understand that He meant "exact time."
In a second example, Jesus said, "And Jesus rebuked the devil;
and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that
very hour." Mt 17:18 Again we must understand that Jesus meant
"Exact time."
Consider the use of "Day"
Ge 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second
month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all
the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of
heaven were opened. Gen 15:18, 21:8 . Luke 17:29 But the same day
that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from
heaven, and destroyed them all. In every example, Day means exact
time.
The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea
side. Mat 13:1 22:23 Mark 4:35.
Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees,
saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will
kill thee. Again the usage is "exact time."
We know that both the People of His day and Jesus knew the
difference between general time and exact time. We know, by these
examples, that when Jesus said "Day and Hour" He meant "exact time."
What We Can Know
It should now be apparent that when the Apostils asked "when,"
that they were not asking Him the day (date) and hour (exact
time). The question they asked was "what shall be the signs of
your return?" They meant "what will be the sequence of events we
can recognize?" The answer to that question, as given by Jesus,
is: "When the leaves begin to turn green, the tree will soon bear
fruit."
Then Jesus described a sequence of events which we can recognize.
Mat 24:7-8, 8-14, 14-21, 29-31.
Jesus Is Telling You How To Tell Prophetic Time.
"When you see clouds on the horizon, the storm is coming."
"When storm clouds gather, and lower, it will rain."
"Red sky at night, sailors delight."
"When the trees’ turn colors and leafs fall, winter will follow."
"When there is no rain in the winter, a hot, dry summer will follow."
"When you see the army on the horizon, the invasion is coming."
"As a dog follows his master, so famine follows war."
What this tells us is; "telling time" is the recognition of a
sequence of events, and knowing which events must follow.
Christians are forewarned.
We know which sequence of events, in God's plan, must occur next.
We have an idea of how these events fit into a sequence, and how
they fit into the sequence of human events. What we cannot do is
use a clock or a calendar to predict an "exact time" for _any_ of
these coming events.
What we can do is recognize, by observing events as they occur,
that we are now in that sequence of events which will result in
the consummation of God's plan. What we can to is recognize our
location in that sequence of events, and be aware which event
must occur next.
"Knowing when" does not mean knowing the day or hour; it does
mean recognizing what must happen next as a result of the
previous event in a sequence of events.
Yes, We Can Know "When"
There are Examples of former generations Understanding Times in
Prophecy. Noah knew it would be when the Boat was finished, even
though he did not know the day or hour until it started to rain.
Moses' generation knew because they counted the years, although
they did not know the day or hour until Moses lead them out. John
the Baptist’s generation knew the time was near because they had
the prophecy of years given by Daniel.
The Lord told Daniel,
"And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is
true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many
days." Dan. 8:26.
"And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and
to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end:
because it is yet for a time appointed." Dan. 11:35.
There are several important points in these verses. First,
though, is that because the vision is closed, then no one can
understand it. Second, is that the time has been appointed.
Then, "So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was
afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O
son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision." Dan.
8:17.
And:
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and
sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made
white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of
the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Dan
12:9-10.
The Lord told Daniel that the vision was "for the time of the
end," and, that "(at the time of the end) the wise shall understand."
Two Examples
Understanding Time Periods in Prophecy
First is Moses' Generation, who understood the numbers of the
years as given by God to Abraham. "And he said unto Abram, Know
of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is
not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them
four hundred years." Gen. 15:13. We can be sure that his
descendants counted those years very carefully, and knew the
generation which would see the fulfillment of the promise.
Second was Daniel; who understood the numbers of years given in
'the books.' "I Daniel understood by books the number of the
years..." Dan. 9:2.
What we have, then, is two scriptural examples that God does give
prophecy which contain a time period, and, that He gives the
understanding of those prophecies to those who please Him.
Now we need to ask, "Are the numbers of years to the Second
Coming of The Lord given in scripture?"
And, if prophecies are given which give the number of years,
"Will the Lord give us the understanding of those prophecies?"
The answer to the first question is a loud, "Yes." The numbers of
years have been given for His coming. Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:25-27,
12:10-12. Revelation 11:3, 9-11, 13:5.
The answer to the second question is also "Yes." Since, "for the
words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many
shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked
shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but
the wise shall understand." Compare Isa 29:11-12, Eze 2:9 - 3:3
and Dan 12:9-10 with Rev 1:1, 6:1-6, 10:7-10.
At the time of the end, the wise shall understand: It is His promise.
Just as the descendants of Abraham could know that they were the
generation, so can this generation.
Just as the Disciples who heard John the Baptist preaching in the
desert, and who witnessed Jesus' power, knew prophecy would be
fulfilled in their generation, so can this generation.
This is "that" generation.
Brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no reason for us to be
surprised by the reunification of Rome, nuclear war, the mark of
the beast, the invasion of Israel or the battle of Armageddon.
For more detailed look at subject, see:
http://www.geocities.com/gaedhealic/when_b.html
oldwetdog
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/tlb/1gen.html
.
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
|
| Title: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
16 Jun 2006 10:02:59 PM |
|
|
"St Dog the Wet" <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1296ndj44fnuc0b@corp.supernews.com...
HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME
What We Can Not Know
Let's get this clearly understood: No one can know the day or
hour of the Lord's coming.
However, that should suggest a question, or two: Is recognizing
the "Generation" the same as knowing the day and hour? Is knowing
"When" the same as knowing the day and hour? Paul said, "But ye,
brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you
as a thief." And, "As you see the day approaching..." 1 Thes 5:4,
Heb 10:25. While we cannot know the exact time, we can know
enough that that day will not surprise us like a thief, and we
will see it approaching.
In fact, Jesus said, "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for
looking after those things which are coming on the earth..." Luke
21:25-26. So even those who reject God will see the end coming,
and "their hearts failing them for fear," because of those things
which they see coming on the earth!
Therefore, the truth is somewhere between "NOT knowning when,"
and "Knowing the day and hour." Actually, knowing the general
time, for example, the generation, is not the same as knowing the
day and hour. There are examples of generations who did know what
prophecy would be fulfilled in thier lifetime.
What is time?
Time is the motion of all God's creation toward the conclusion He
has predetermined. The passage of time can be seen in the
transition from one event to the next event in that sequence of
events which climaxes in the conclusion predetermined by God.
Mechanical Clocks
Mechanical clocks were not available to Daniel or John. We, on
the other hand, have come to depend completely on the artificial
method of counting hours and minutes, and we think of this as
"time." It is not "time." Worse, is that we have become dependant
on that pointer moving in a circle to tell us the exact minute or
hour--and we use that to know "when" events (like the train
arriving) should occur.
============================================
Sundials in the form of obelisks (3500 BC) and shadow clocks (1500 BC) are known from ancient Egypt, and were developed further by
other cultures, including the Chinese, Greek[1], and Roman cultures. A type of sundial without gnomon is described in the old Old
Testament (Isaiah 38:2). [1]
The mathematician and astronomer Theodosius of Bithynia (ca. 160 BC-ca. 100 BC) is said to have invented a universal sundial that
could be used anywhere on Earth. The French astronomer Oronce Finé constructed a sundial of ivory in 1524. The Italian astronomer
Giovanni Padovani published a treatise on the sundial in 1570, in which he included instructions for the manufacture and laying out
of mural (vertical) and horizontal sundials. Giuseppe Biancani's Constructio instrumenti ad horologia solaria discusses how to make
a perfect sundial, with accompanying illustrations.
============================================
We need to acknowledge that this is an artificial method, and has
nothing to do with scripture. It is an imitation of the motion of
the earth on its axis. The "machine" has several wheels, and
these wheels have teeth which react with a pendulum or a spring,
working to drive a "pointer" in a circle. These wheels and the
pointers imitate the motion of the earth on its axis, so that
when your location on earth points toward the sun, the hands
point toward "noon." This imitation has nothing to do with the
passage of time except to serve as an artificial counter. As I
said, it imitates the motion of the earth on it axis, and nothing
more. This mechanical method of "keeping time" was not known to
the Apostles.
How the Apostles Knew When
We need to understand the method the Apostles used, and what they
meant by the question, "When will these things be?" We will admit
first, that they could not have meant, "When, according to the
clock," since they did not have mechanical clocks. Well, then
what did they mean?
The key is, "sequence of events."
We know something of history. History as it occurred before we
were born, and history as it has occurred in our lifetime. If we
will give it some thought, we can see that all historical events
are a "chain of events." There was, or is, no event in human
history which was/is an isolated event, without cause or
consequence. There are no events in history which are unrelated
to the events which preceded it, or followed it. All human events
are a part of a sequence of events.
In our recent history: (current events,) the invasion of Iraq was
an event which was preceded by other events. If you've saved your
news papers for the past two years you can re-read the news
articles describing the sequence of events. The invasion of Iraq
is an event which is part of the sequence which caused it. and
will certainly follow it.
What Did Jesus Mean By Day and Hour?
Since the people of His generation did not have mechanical
clocks, what did Jesus mean when He used the words "day or hour?"
Consider the examples of how these terms were used by Jesus
himself. "Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great
is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter
was made whole from that very hour." Mt 15:28 In this example we
must understand that He meant "exact time."
In a second example, Jesus said, "And Jesus rebuked the devil;
and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that
very hour." Mt 17:18 Again we must understand that Jesus meant
"Exact time."
Consider the use of "Day"
Ge 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second
month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all
the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of
heaven were opened. Gen 15:18, 21:8 . Luke 17:29 But the same day
that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from
heaven, and destroyed them all. In every example, Day means exact
time.
The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea
side. Mat 13:1 22:23 Mark 4:35.
Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees,
saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will
kill thee. Again the usage is "exact time."
We know that both the People of His day and Jesus knew the
difference between general time and exact time. We know, by these
examples, that when Jesus said "Day and Hour" He meant "exact time."
What We Can Know
It should now be apparent that when the Apostils asked "when,"
that they were not asking Him the day (date) and hour (exact
time). The question they asked was "what shall be the signs of
your return?" They meant "what will be the sequence of events we
can recognize?" The answer to that question, as given by Jesus,
is: "When the leaves begin to turn green, the tree will soon bear
fruit."
Then Jesus described a sequence of events which we can recognize.
Mat 24:7-8, 8-14, 14-21, 29-31.
Jesus Is Telling You How To Tell Prophetic Time.
"When you see clouds on the horizon, the storm is coming."
"When storm clouds gather, and lower, it will rain."
"Red sky at night, sailors delight."
"When the trees’ turn colors and leafs fall, winter will follow."
"When there is no rain in the winter, a hot, dry summer will follow."
"When you see the army on the horizon, the invasion is coming."
"As a dog follows his master, so famine follows war."
What this tells us is; "telling time" is the recognition of a
sequence of events, and knowing which events must follow.
Christians are forewarned.
We know which sequence of events, in God's plan, must occur next.
We have an idea of how these events fit into a sequence, and how
they fit into the sequence of human events. What we cannot do is
use a clock or a calendar to predict an "exact time" for _any_ of
these coming events.
What we can do is recognize, by observing events as they occur,
that we are now in that sequence of events which will result in
the consummation of God's plan. What we can to is recognize our
location in that sequence of events, and be aware which event
must occur next.
"Knowing when" does not mean knowing the day or hour; it does
mean recognizing what must happen next as a result of the
previous event in a sequence of events.
Yes, We Can Know "When"
There are Examples of former generations Understanding Times in
Prophecy. Noah knew it would be when the Boat was finished, even
though he did not know the day or hour until it started to rain.
Moses' generation knew because they counted the years, although
they did not know the day or hour until Moses lead them out. John
the Baptist’s generation knew the time was near because they had
the prophecy of years given by Daniel.
The Lord told Daniel,
"And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is
true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many
days." Dan. 8:26.
"And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and
to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end:
because it is yet for a time appointed." Dan. 11:35.
There are several important points in these verses. First,
though, is that because the vision is closed, then no one can
understand it. Second, is that the time has been appointed.
Then, "So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was
afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O
son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision." Dan.
8:17.
And:
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and
sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made
white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of
the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Dan
12:9-10.
The Lord told Daniel that the vision was "for the time of the
end," and, that "(at the time of the end) the wise shall understand."
Two Examples
Understanding Time Periods in Prophecy
First is Moses' Generation, who understood the numbers of the
years as given by God to Abraham. "And he said unto Abram, Know
of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is
not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them
four hundred years." Gen. 15:13. We can be sure that his
descendants counted those years very carefully, and knew the
generation which would see the fulfillment of the promise.
Second was Daniel; who understood the numbers of years given in
'the books.' "I Daniel understood by books the number of the
years..." Dan. 9:2.
What we have, then, is two scriptural examples that God does give
prophecy which contain a time period, and, that He gives the
understanding of those prophecies to those who please Him.
Now we need to ask, "Are the numbers of years to the Second
Coming of The Lord given in scripture?"
And, if prophecies are given which give the number of years,
"Will the Lord give us the understanding of those prophecies?"
The answer to the first question is a loud, "Yes." The numbers of
years have been given for His coming. Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:25-27,
12:10-12. Revelation 11:3, 9-11, 13:5.
The answer to the second question is also "Yes." Since, "for the
words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many
shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked
shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but
the wise shall understand." Compare Isa 29:11-12, Eze 2:9 - 3:3
and Dan 12:9-10 with Rev 1:1, 6:1-6, 10:7-10.
At the time of the end, the wise shall understand: It is His promise.
Just as the descendants of Abraham could know that they were the
generation, so can this generation.
Just as the Disciples who heard John the Baptist preaching in the
desert, and who witnessed Jesus' power, knew prophecy would be
fulfilled in their generation, so can this generation.
This is "that" generation.
Brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no reason for us to be
surprised by the reunification of Rome, nuclear war, the mark of
the beast, the invasion of Israel or the battle of Armageddon.
For more detailed look at subject, see:
http://www.geocities.com/gaedhealic/when_b.html
oldwetdog
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/tlb/1gen.html
.
|
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| User: "St Dog the Wet" |
|
| Title: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
16 Jun 2006 10:40:24 PM |
|
|
Melchizedek wrote:
"St Dog the Wet" <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1296ndj44fnuc0b@corp.supernews.com...
HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME
What We Can Not Know
Let's get this clearly understood: No one can know the day or
hour of the Lord's coming.
However, that should suggest a question, or two: Is recognizing
the "Generation" the same as knowing the day and hour? Is knowing
"When" the same as knowing the day and hour? Paul said, "But ye,
brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you
as a thief." And, "As you see the day approaching..." 1 Thes 5:4,
Heb 10:25. While we cannot know the exact time, we can know
enough that that day will not surprise us like a thief, and we
will see it approaching.
In fact, Jesus said, "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for
looking after those things which are coming on the earth..." Luke
21:25-26. So even those who reject God will see the end coming,
and "their hearts failing them for fear," because of those things
which they see coming on the earth!
Therefore, the truth is somewhere between "NOT knowning when,"
and "Knowing the day and hour." Actually, knowing the general
time, for example, the generation, is not the same as knowing the
day and hour. There are examples of generations who did know what
prophecy would be fulfilled in thier lifetime.
What is time?
Time is the motion of all God's creation toward the conclusion He
has predetermined. The passage of time can be seen in the
transition from one event to the next event in that sequence of
events which climaxes in the conclusion predetermined by God.
Mechanical Clocks
Mechanical clocks were not available to Daniel or John. We, on
the other hand, have come to depend completely on the artificial
method of counting hours and minutes, and we think of this as
"time." It is not "time." Worse, is that we have become dependant
on that pointer moving in a circle to tell us the exact minute or
hour--and we use that to know "when" events (like the train
arriving) should occur.
============================================
Sundials in the form of obelisks (3500 BC) and shadow clocks (1500 BC) are known from ancient Egypt, and were developed further by
other cultures, including the Chinese, Greek[1], and Roman cultures. A type of sundial without gnomon is described in the old Old
Testament (Isaiah 38:2). [1]
The mathematician and astronomer Theodosius of Bithynia (ca. 160 BC-ca. 100 BC) is said to have invented a universal sundial that
could be used anywhere on Earth. The French astronomer Oronce Finé constructed a sundial of ivory in 1524. The Italian astronomer
Giovanni Padovani published a treatise on the sundial in 1570, in which he included instructions for the manufacture and laying out
of mural (vertical) and horizontal sundials. Giuseppe Biancani's Constructio instrumenti ad horologia solaria discusses how to make
a perfect sundial, with accompanying illustrations.
Thanks for your comment, Melchizedek
Sundials are wonderful for marking the hours while the sun is up,
but on a sunless day they don't work.
I do hope you noticed that I mentioned "mechanical clock" by
name, and I wonder if you might have an idea why I would do that?
Can you tell me the difference between a Sundial and a Mechanical
Clock?
I'm wondering if you caught the purpose of my comparison?
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
17 Jun 2006 08:09:36 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 23:02:59 -0400, "Melchizedek"
<Melchizedek@as-if.com> spake thusly:
HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME
It's simple. Stop ignoring the clear time statements
given, such as "this generation", "quickly", "soon",
"the last hour", "at hand", etc., in favor of trying to
pretend that the clock started ticking the day that
you opened your Bible for the first time.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."
http://www.douknow.net/ev_evolution_test.htm
.
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| User: "Pulpitfire" |
|
| Title: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
17 Jun 2006 08:51:02 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:09:36 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 23:02:59 -0400, "Melchizedek"
<Melchizedek@as-if.com> spake thusly:
HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME
It's simple. Stop ignoring the clear time statements
given, such as "this generation", "quickly", "soon",
"the last hour", "at hand", etc., in favor of trying to
pretend that the clock started ticking the day that
you opened your Bible for the first time.
Preterists have convinced themselves that a few "time" passages
irrefutably establish the generation who heard Christ speak as the
ones who must see the fulfillment of prophecy. This may be because
they are troubled and seduced by scoffers who contend God has delayed
his coming (2 Peter 3).
"This generation"
You had your chance to convince me that Matthew 24:34 means only the
contemporary generation of people who were then standing and listening
to Christ speak, and it didn't work. The word can mean "age", or the
"people of an age", and "this generation" is applied directly to a
group of people who were said to have killed the righteous from Abel
to Zecharias, in Matthew 23, so that even in the most immediate
context, the usage of the phrase is not limited to the people then
standing and listening to Christ speak, but extends to their fathers
from thousands of years in the past. Further, as a principle of sound
hermeneutics, I will not accept an interpretation of this verse, which
requires me to spiritualize the entire book of Revelation into an
event, or series of events that occurred in the "land of Jerusalem",
before A.D. 70, and no amount of trying to read these events into the
first century news of the day, will convince me otherwise.
"At hand"
"Near", or "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10) means next. The events of
Revelation are the next events on the prophetic schedule, and ARE near
in that sense.
"Soon", "Quickly"
"Soon" means the events will occur quickly once they begin:
Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and
night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Lu 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily <5034>.
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the
earth?
Here, God says He will avenge His elect "speedily", "though he bear
long with them". This means that once the events begin, they will be
completed quickly, and not that God will avenge the elect within a
short amount of time from when they cry day and night unto him.
Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to
shew unto his servants things which must shortly <5034> come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
(Same word as above)
=============================================
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord
Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That
ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by
spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day
of Christ is at hand." -- 2 Thess. 2:1-2 www.pulpitfire.org
=============================================
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| User: "Bull" |
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| Title: Re: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
17 Jun 2006 09:37:43 AM |
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On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 08:51:02 -0500, Pulpitfire
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:09:36 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 23:02:59 -0400, "Melchizedek"
<Melchizedek@as-if.com> spake thusly:
HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME
It's simple. Stop ignoring the clear time
statements
given, such as "this generation", "quickly",
"soon",
"the last hour", "at hand", etc., in favor of
trying to
pretend that the clock started ticking the day
that
you opened your Bible for the first time.
Preterists have convinced themselves that a few
"time" passages
irrefutably establish the generation who heard
Christ speak as the
ones who must see the fulfillment of prophecy.
This may be because
they are troubled and seduced by scoffers who
contend God has delayed
his coming (2 Peter 3).
"This generation"
You had your chance to convince me that Matthew
24:34 means only the
contemporary generation of people who were then
standing and listening
to Christ speak, and it didn't work. The word can
mean "age", or the
"people of an age", and "this generation" is
applied directly to a
group of people who were said to have killed the
righteous from Abel
to Zecharias, in Matthew 23, so that even in the
most immediate
context, the usage of the phrase is not limited to
the people then
standing and listening to Christ speak, but
extends to their fathers
from thousands of years in the past. Further, as
a principle of sound
hermeneutics, I will not accept an interpretation
of this verse, which
requires me to spiritualize the entire book of
Revelation into an
event, or series of events that occurred in the
"land of Jerusalem",
before A.D. 70, and no amount of trying to read
these events into the
first century news of the day, will convince me
otherwise.
"At hand"
"Near", or "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10) means next.
The events of
Revelation are the next events on the prophetic
schedule, and ARE near
in that sense.
"Soon", "Quickly"
"Soon" means the events will occur quickly once
they begin:
Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect,
which cry day and
night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Lu 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them
speedily <5034>.
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he
find faith on the
earth?
Here, God says He will avenge His elect
"speedily", "though he bear
long with them". This means that once the events
begin, they will be
completed quickly, and not that God will avenge
the elect within a
short amount of time from when they cry day and
night unto him.
Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God
gave unto him, to
shew unto his servants things which must shortly
<5034> come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his
servant John:
(Same word as above)
=============================================
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of
our Lord
Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto
him, That
ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by
spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as
that the day
of Christ is at hand." -- 2 Thess. 2:1-2
www.pulpitfire.org
=============================================
So, what are you saying? Is god's holy book not
so holy after all? It doesn't mean what it says?
What good is it if it takes a priest or guru to
add parts that aren't there in the first place?
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| User: "St Dog the Wet" |
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| Title: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
17 Jun 2006 11:24:18 AM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 23:02:59 -0400, "Melchizedek"
<Melchizedek@as-if.com> spake thusly:
HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME
It's simple. Stop ignoring the clear time statements
given, such as "this generation", "quickly", "soon",
"the last hour", "at hand", etc.,
"Quickly," "soon" and "at hand" are meaningless when you reject
all prophecy which contains days and times.
Dan 7:25, 8:14, 9:27, 12:10-12. Rev 11:3, 9-11, 13:5.
A GRAPH OF THE TIME PERIODS
|<--------- DANIEL'S 70th WEEK ---------->|
|<------------- SEVEN YEARS ------------->|
| (2555 DAYS) |
| |
|<----------- Two Witnesses ------------->|
| | | |<- 40 DAYS ->|
| |<----------- 2300 DAYS ------------------------->|
| | |<------------ 1335 DAYS --------->|
|<----- 1260 DAYS -->|<--- 1290 DAYS -->|<-- 45 DAYS -->|
| 2 | | | | | |
| 9 | | |
| 5 | | | | |
| | <-- 42 MONTHS --> | |
| D | | | | |
| A | <-- 3 1/2 YRS --> | |
| Y | | | | |
| S | <-- 3 1/2 DAYS -> | |
| | | |
<- FOURTH SEAL | | |
|<-FIFTH SEAL | | SEVENTH |
| SIXTH SEAL->| |<-- SEAL |
| | | |
|<- ABOMINATION | |
| OF DESOLATION | |
| |
| |
<-FIRST VIAL-> <-SIXTH-> |<-SEVENTH |
VIAL VIAL |
| |
<--FIRST TRUMPET <-SIXTH-> SEVENTH |
FOURTH TRUMPET-> TRUMPET TRUMPET-->|
|
Dan 7:25, 8:14, 9:27, 12:10-12. Rev 11:3, 9-11, 13:5.
oldwetdog
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
Nothing is more difficult for Americans to understand than the
possibility of tragedy. H. Kissinger
..
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
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| Title: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
18 Jun 2006 09:17:02 AM |
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ESCHATOLOGY - The Doctrine of Last Things.
Here is a (.html) file (25 page) summary:
http://bibleweb.info/public-eschatology-summary.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
// A Christian Bible Study Collection
// Small Group Bible Studies
// http://bibleweb.info/0-newsgroup-material/
[XXXX][O]========= The Word of God =========><>
\\ 250Gb online - 1.5Tb DVD archive
\\
\\ http://Bibleweb.Info/
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| User: "St Dog the Wet" |
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| Title: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
18 Jun 2006 10:33:15 AM |
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Melchizedek wrote:
'The Rapture' and the 'Millennial Reign of Christ on this Earth'
are
DOCTRINE OF DEVILS
In the previous post, "What Is a Doctrine of Devils?" I offered
the following list and presented scripture to demonstrate the
variations and kinds of false doctrines which are defined as
Doctrine of Devils.
Some common traits of Doctrines of Devils; a doctrine of devils
is one which,
A) Lies about God
lies about the Person or Character of God
makes false accusations against God
is blasphemy
B) Lies about God's Word
lies about what God has said
His promises to his people
His Word of Prophecy
C) Lies about God's People
about the Nation Israel (blood descendants of Abraham)
about Israel (descendants by adoption, sons by promise)
about Who God's People are
In this article I will first (PART ONE) present the teachings of
"the doctrine of the rapture" which fit the description above.
Second, (PART TWO) I will examine 'the rapture' doctrine, and
Scripture which is either used to support the false doctrine or
about which the false doctrine lies about, or contradicts.
Last, in the conclusion (PART THREE) I will present the evidence.
PART ONE
A: LIES ABOUT GOD
1.) Lies about Who Causes the Tribulation
This lie ignores the fact that Jesus told us who will cause
the Great Tribulation, and blames it on God. The lie is; that God
brings this tribulation on the world, and is, therefore
blasphemy. Since God is the cause of this tribulation, then God
would be unjust to bring this Tribulation on His People.
Rapture Doctrine teaches: The Tribulation
a) (is) to rain judgment on the "inhabitants of the earth" Rev
3:10; 8:13
*The Lie: John did not say "God would rain judgment" on the
inhabitants of the earth. What John did say (Rev 3:10) is, "the
hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." And
(Rev 8:13) this says; "trumpet of the three angels," not Tribulation.
b) (is) God's wrath being poured out on his bride the church;
Because God has not appointed us to wrath 1 Thes 5:8-10
*The Lie: (see "WRATH" below) the confusion of God's Judgment and
the Vials of Wrath with the Great Tribulation; a false accusation
that God is the Cause of this Tribulation.
c) The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's wrath, Rev 6:16-17;
11:18; 14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19
The Lie: not one of the quoted scriptures say this Wrath is The
Great Tribulation. (Mat 24:14-21, Rev 7:14) Another false
accusation, saying God is the cause of this Tribulation.
d) (is) a time of His judgment Rev 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12,
14;14:7; 15:4; 16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2
*The Lie: not one of the quoted scriptures equates God's Judgment
with The Great Tribulation, (Mat 24:14-21, Rev 7:14.) This is
another false accusation against God, blaming Him for the
Tribulation.
e) (is) Punishment Isa 24:21-22
*The Lie: this scripture does not equate the punishment described
as being The Great Tribulation: 'rapture' doctrine does not
recognize the source, cause or time of this punishment in the
sequence of End Time Events. This scripture, in context,
describes the events of THAT DAY. (2 Pet 3:3-12, Isa 27:13)(Mat
24:14-21, Rev 7:14)
2.) Lies about What the Tribulation Is
"The twofold purpose of the Tribulation, is to prepare Israel,
spiritually, for the Messiah she rejected the first time
(Jeremiah 30-33), and to rain judgment on the 'inhabitants of the
earth' (Rev 3:10; 8:13)."
"The Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's trouble..." Jeremiah 30:7
This lie is two sided:
a) That it is God's punishment on Israel for rejecting the
Messiah, to prepare Israel spiritually to receive Him during His
reign on earth, Jeremiah 30-33
*The Lie: There is no Scripture which teaches the Great
Tribulation is to prepare Israel, or that God is the cause of
this Tribulation (Jacob's trouble). This lie denies that the New
Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah
in the day of Pentecost, AD 33. Acts 2
*The Lie exposed: This scripture, (Jer 30:7) in context, is a
description of That Day, the Day of The Lord; it is not a
description of "Jacob's Trouble:" But it is the day of salvation
for God's People. Compare other scriptures describing That Day,
The Day of The Lord, The Day of God and the events of That Day. 2
Pet 3:3-12
b) That this tribulation is "God's Wrath on the people of the
World." (see #1.a)
Since the Church (according to 'rapture' doctrine) is not Israel,
then this tribulation (according to 'the rapture' doctrine) is
not on the Church (proving the Church absent, according to
'rapture' doctrine, during this time). (This is a lie about who
the Church is. See #C)
*The Lie exposed: see:
The Church / the Kingdom http://tinyurl.com/sxkcz
And
The Church in the Last Days http://tinyurl.com/mfb9l
*The Lie exposed: John did not say "tribulation" in 3:13; his
word is "temptation."
*The Lie exposed: John did not say "rain judgment" on the world;
his words are "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by
reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,
which are yet to sound! The "last three trumpets" are not The
Great Tribulation described by Jesus. Mat 24:14-21
B: Rapture Doctrine: Lies About God's Word
These lies either claim the Word of God states something it does
not, or that it does not mean or say what it in fact does say.
a) "the return of Christ for the church could happen at any time,
John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor 15:51-52; Phil 3:20; Col 3:4; 1
Thes 1:10; 1 Tim 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet 3:3-4 (See below)
*The Lie: none of the quoted scriptures says 'the Lord could
return at any time,' nor do they support that statement.
b) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is the
"outpouring of God's Wrath" (Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1;
16:1, 19)
*The Lie: none of the quoted scriptures says "the Great
Tribulation is the outpouring of God's Wrath," nor do they
support that statement.
c) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is the "A
time of His Judgment" (Rev 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14;14:7; 15:4;
16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2)
*The Lie: not one of the quoted scriptures says "the Tribulation
is a time of His judgment," nor do they support that statement.
d) The Doctrine of the rapture states that "Tribulation and time
of Punishment" Isa 24:21-22
*The Lie: The quoted scripture does say this is a time of
punishment: but does not equate this punishment with The Great
Tribulation as described by Jesus. Mat 24:14-21. This scripture
says, "And it shall come to pass in that day," and the student of
His Word who loves truth will compare other scripture which
describes "that day," the day of the Lord. 2 Pet 3:3-12.
C: "Rapture Doctrine: Lies about God's People
a) "Because Tribulation saints are not the church"
*The Lie: The term "tribulation saints" is not found in the word
of God. (see #c below)
b) Because God promised to deliver the church from the hour of
Tribulation, Revelation 3:10
*The Lie: The word "Tribulation" is not used in this Scripture --
the word used is "temptation."
c) "Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church" something
like 19 times before Revelation 4 refers to the judgments which
shall be "hereafter" falling on "the inhabitants of the earth"
*The Lie: The terms "Saints, Brethren, Brothers, Elect, We Who
Remain, The Twelve Tribes, Israel of God and Witnesses" are used
throughout the Word of God to name His People.
The Church / the Kingdom : http://tinyurl.com/sxkcz
The Church in the Last Days : http://tinyurl.com/mfb9l
PART TWO
Comparing the False Doctrine with the Scripture
Wrath
"God has not appointed us to wrath" 1 Thes 5:8-10
This confusion of Tribulation with both The Vials of Wrath and
the Wrath of God's Judgment is a deliberate effort to,
1.) Lie about God (stating or inferring that God is the source or
cause of The Tribulation)
2.) Lie about God's Word (stating or inferring the God's Word
teaches the escape from The Tribulation)
This Statement ("God has not appointed us to wrath") BEGGS us to
answer the question: "Who Has God Appointed To Wrath?"
When did Salvation Come?
It is written that we are not appointed to wrath. "Jesus which
hath delivered us from the wrath to come." 1 Thes 1:10 and 5:9.
The term `delivered' is past tense: that is, this is something
which has been done, not prophecy about something which will be
done at the end of time. "Now is come salvation, and strength,
and the Kingdom of our God..." Rev 12:10. Notice that the vision
in Rev 12 is of the birth of Christ, so this is a 'first century'
event. Salvation came to all who receive Christ when He died as
our sacrifice.
How did we get salvation? By the death of the Lamb of God. When
did we get salvation? When we accepted the death of the Lamb of
God as atonement for our sins. Mat 1:21, Acts 2:37-47, Col 1:12-14
First Century Saints
This "saved from wrath" means the same thing to us it meant to
the First Century Saints. That is, by His sacrifice the Messiah
has saved us from the eternal separation from God which we earned
by our sins: grace rather than judgment. Acts 2:21, 47; 15:11;
Rom 5:9, 1 Cor 5:5
The First Century Saints were saved from wrath, just as we are;
and still suffered Tribulation, just as we will. Rev 6:9-11,
7:14, 11:3-15, 13.
Who Did God Appoint To Wrath?
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up to
thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the
righteous judgment of God." Rom 2:5-8. Those who reject the
Messiah, deny Truth and refuse to repent from their life of
rebellion are appointed to wrath.
When will those who are appointed to wrath receive that wrath? On
That Day, the Day of Judgment. Rev 11:18, Zep 1:15-16.
Vials of Wrath
And please note: the Vials of wrath are poured out upon the
Beast's Kingdom, not upon the Saints -- just as the 10 Plagues
were poured out upon the Egyptians, not on the Twelve Tribes of
Judah. Rev 16:1-10
Outpouring of Wrath
The Doctrine of 'the rapture states' that Tribulation is the
"outpouring of God's Wrath" (Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1;
16:1, 19)
Examine the scripture to see if these things be so. Acts 17:11-12
These quoted scripture do have one thing in common: they do
contain the word "wrath." However, not one defines this Wrath as
"the Tribulation," or as 'the outpouring of God's Wrath."
Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us, and hide us
from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the
wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able
to stand?
Rev 11:18
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time
of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest
give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest
destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14:19
"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered
the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of
the wrath of God.
Rev 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven
angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up
the wrath of God.
Rev 16:1, 19
1, And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the
seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath
of God upon the earth.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the
cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance
before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the
fierceness of his wrath.
Do any of the Quoted Scripture state that "the Tribulation is the
outpouring of God's Wrath"? No. Because the Doctrine of 'the
rapture' states that The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's
Wrath, then this is both a lie about God and God's Conduct, and
His Word.
Judgment Wrath
The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is the "A
time of His Judgment" (Rev 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14;14:7; 15:4;
16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2)
Examine the scripture to see if these things be so. Acts 17:11-12.
Rev 6:10
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy
and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that
dwell on the earth?
Rev 11:10
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and
make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these
two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 13:8, 12, 14,
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the
first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of
those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the
beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should
make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and
did live.
Rev 14:7
"Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for
the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made
heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 15:4
"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou
only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before
thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Rev 16:5-7
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O
Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged
thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou
hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend
out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that
dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in
the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they
behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 19:2
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged
the great *****, which did corrupt the earth with her
fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Do any of the Quoted Scripture say "the Tribulation is a time of
God's Judgment"? No. The quoted scriptures do not all contain the
word 'Judgment' or 'Judge,' and none contain "tribulation" or
describe "The Great Tribulation" as God's Judgment. (Mat 24:14-21)
Time of Punishment
The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation and time of
"Punishment" Isa 24:21-22
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall
punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings
of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered
in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many
days shall they be visited.
Does this Quoted Scripture say "the Tribulation is a time of
God's Punishment"? No. The quoted scripture does not define
"Punish" or "punishment" as Tribulation, does not contain the
word "tribulation," nor describe "tribulation" AS punishment.
This scripture does not equate the punishment described as being
The Great Tribulation, nor recognize the source, cause or time in
the sequence of End Time Events of this punishment. This
scripture, in context, describes the events of THAT DAY. (2 Pet
3:3-12, Isa 27:13)(Mat 24:14-21, Rev 7:14)
PART THREE
Putting it all together; The Conclusion
A) LIES ABOUT GOD
To lie and falsely accuse God is an act of Blasphemy
1.) The rapture states that The Great Tribulation is the "A
time of His Judgment"
*This is a false accusation against God. (Mat 24:14-21)
2.) The rapture states that The Great Tribulation is the
"outpouring of God's Wrath"
*This is a false accusation against God. (Mat 24:14-21)
These false accusations against God ignore the fact that
Christ, and the Word of God, reveals both the source and causes
of the Great Tribulation. (Mat 24:14-21)
B) LIES ABOUT GOD'S WORD
1.) The return of Christ for the church could happen at any
time, John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor 15:51-52; Phil 3:20; Col 3:4;
1 Thes 1:10; 1 Tim 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet 3:3-4
*The Lie about God's Word: Not one of the quoted scriptures say;
'the Lord could return at any time,' nor do they support that
statement.
2.) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is
the "outpouring of God's Wrath" (Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1;
16:1, 19)
*The Lie about God's Word: Not one of the quoted scriptures say;
'The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's Wrath,' nor do they
support that statement.
3.) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is
the "A time of His Judgment" (Rev 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14;14:7;
15:4; 16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2)
*The Lie about God's Word: Not one of the quoted scriptures say;
'The Tribulation is a time of His judgment,' nor do they support
that statement.
4.) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation and
time of "Punishment" Isa 24:21-22
*The Lie about God's Word: This scripture does not define
"Punish" or "punishment" as Tribulation, does not contain the
word "tribulation," nor describe "tribulation" AS punishment.
C) LIES ABOUT GOD'S PEOPLE
1.) The rapture denies that the New Covenant was established
with the House of Israel and the House of Judah (blood
descendants of Abraham)
*The Lie: The New Covenant was established with the House of
Israel and House of Judah on the Day of Pentecost, in AD 33. Jer
31:31, Acts 2.
2.) The rapture denies that "Tribulation saints" are the Church
*The Lie: The term "tribulation saints" is not found in the word
of God. (see #c below.)
3.) The rapture claims that God promised to deliver the
church from the hour of Tribulation, Revelation 3:10
*The Lie: The word "Tribulation" is not used in this Scripture --
the word used is "temptation."
4.) "Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church"
something like 19 times before Revelation 4 refers to the
judgments which shall be "hereafter" falling on "the inhabitants
of the earth"
*The Lie: The terms "Saints, Brethren, Brothers, Elect, We Who
Remain, The Twelve Tribes, Israel of God, and Witnesses are used
throughout the Word of God to name His People.
CONCLUSION
Both "the rapture doctrine" and "the millennial reign of Christ
on this earth" are in fact Doctrine of Devils.
THE BIGGEST LIE
Perhaps the Grandest Lie ever presented to God's People --
and mankind -- is that God is the cause, and is to be blamed for,
the Great Tribulation which the false "God" of Modern Rome will
cause.
For the entire past generation, perhaps the last 80 years, the
writers, teachers and preachers of "the rapture" have been
selling this Doctrine of Devils to mankind. Embedded in the false
hope of their escape from Tribulation is concealed the cause and
source of the suffering the Church is to escape.
The entire world has become aware of the false hope of the
Church's escape, and they laugh at the ridiculous visions of cars
running empty on streets while Christians are whisked into the
sky. The world laughs; but they are not so blind or ignorant that
they miss the not so subtle statement that it is God who brings
this Tribulation on the world.
So the World knows Christians believe that God is the source and
causes of the Tribulation coming on the world. And who taught the
world this lie? Was it Satan? No, not as far as the world knows:
it was Christianity.
So Satan has used God's People to tell The Biggest Lie to the
entire World!
Now, while Satan laughs, and the tribulation becomes impossible
to ignore or deny, the people of the world will blame Christians
-- because, after all, the Church taught them that it is the God
of Abraham who is the cause of this Tribulation.
TRUTH LOST
During the last generation the Church has lost the
opportunity to teach her people the Truth: That Modern Rome will
soon rise to rule the World; that Satan will occupy the body
prepared for him and then proclaim himself to be "God."
During this generation the Church has lost the opportunity to
teach the World the Truth: that Satan's conquest of the world and
claiming to be "God" is the cause of Tribulation.
Because The Church has failed to recognize this Doctrine of
Devils, and has failed to teach both God's People and the people
of the world the truth, the Church will endure the Tribulation of
these Last Days.
Because these false teachers and prophets have lied and added
words to the visions of John, they have added the wrath of the
seven vials of God's Wrath to their own lives.
If you are one who has believed the lies of the 'rapture' and the
'millennial reign of Christ on this earth,' and you will not
abandon these lies, you too will receive your portion of the
vials of God's Wrath.
If you are one who has refused to abandon these lies you will
also endure the laughter and ridicule of those who hate you --
when they discover you can not escape.
It Is Done: There will be no more delay.
oldwetdog
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
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| Title: Re: HOW TO TELL PROPHETIC TIME |
18 Jun 2006 09:16:04 AM |
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ESCHATOLOGY - The Doctrine of Last Things.
Here is a (.html) file (25 page) summary:
http://bibleweb.info/public-eschatology-summary.html
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// A Christian Bible Study Collection
// Small Group Bible Studies
// http://bibleweb.info/0-newsgroup-material/
[XXXX][O]========= The Word of God =========><>
\\ 250Gb online - 1.5Tb DVD archive
\\
\\ http://Bibleweb.Info/
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The Rapture and Christ's Second Coming
13 Biblical Scholars Discuss The Rapture and Christ's Second Coming
7 Segments Media Player Video Series
Dr. John Walvoord, Hal Lindsey, Dr. Zola Levitt, Peter Lalonde, Dr. David Breese,
Dr. Renald Showers, Dr. John Feinberg, Dr. Paul Feinberg, Dr. Earl Radmacher,
Dr. Randal Price, Dave Hunt, Dr. Elwood McQuaid, and Dr. Jimmy DeYoung Discuss:
· Pretribulationalists, Midtribulationists, Posttribulationists - what do they believe?
· How the Jewish wedding ceremony forms the back ground of Jesus' words in John 14
· Key biblical passages about the rapture.
· Verses that teach the Rapture could happen any moment.
· The difference between afflictions and the wrath of God
· Why Christians will never experience the wrath of God during the Tribulation
· Does the Bible teach two future comings of the Lord - One before the Tribulation Period and one after?
· Daniel 9:27 and the Tribulation
· What does Jesus say about the Tribulation in Matthew 24?
· What takes place on earth when the seals are broken in Heaven?
· A comparison of Revelation 6 with Matthew 24
http://207.234.208.119/bibleweb.info/=DRIVE=bibleweb-drive/_-_/=CD=R=ankerberg-rapture/index.html
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// A Christian Bible Study Collection
// Small Group Bible Studies
// http://bibleweb.info/0-newsgroup-material/
[XXXX][O]========= The Word of God =========><>
\\ 250Gb online - 1.5Tb DVD archive
\\
\\ http://Bibleweb.Info/
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