On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:27:53 -0500,
=A0in article <66isp3lbgrur229qa093q98s9093mng...@4ax.com>,
=A0Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:

How Was Acts 1:11 Fulfilled in 70 AD?,
by Ken Davies

Acts 1:11, says; "This same Jesus, who was taken up from
you into Heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw
Him go into heaven."

<insert comment - begin>

Before going any further, let me say that you look like
an idiot, when you make fun of the Preterist view for
an "invisible return" and then claim that Jesus will return
"invisibly" to rapture the church away!

So I have saved you some time and if you're smart enough
to get the point, you won't be made fun of for not only
being a hypocrite, but actually being stupid enough to
make such a ridiculously stupid comment!

<insert comment - end>

Randall E. Otto, in his book Coming in the Clouds:
An Evangelical Case for the Invisibility of Christ at His
Second Coming (Lanham, MD: University Press of America,
1994), examines this passage (along with Luke 24:48-49)
on pp. 252ff. =A0Otto points out that Luke's gospel describes
the ascension using the word ep=E9rthe (Gr. ephrqh), aorist
passive of epa=EDro (Gr. epairw). =A0This word "does not have
to do with an active physical lifting up but with a lifting
up of someone in stature or divinity" (p. 253). =A0The
"use of this word does not denote a literal and physical
elevation of the person, but rather describes in figurative
terms the elevation of the person in honor and dignity,
i.e., exaltation" (ibid.).

The similarity to Elijah's ascension is noted:

As Norman H. Snaith says [The Interpreter's Bible, 2 Kings]
of Elisha's beholding of Elijah's theophanic chariot,
"It was not every man who could see this heavenly chariotry
(6:17). =A0The youth needed to have his eyes opened in order
that he might see them.". =A0Special spiritual insight was
necessary in order to "see" the ascension of Elijah as
he was enwrapped by the stormcloud which then arose
to Heaven. =A0That special spiritual insight was also the
privilege of the disciples as they now looked for Jesus
to usher in the kingdom in its fullness.

<insert comment - begin>

In other words, without this special spiritual insight,
they did "see" it happen! =A0And so, listen to THE BIBLE
and stop pretending that Jesus was speaking in,
"opposite of what God said in the OT Scriptures speak"!!!

And another good example, is found in 2 Kings, when
Elisha had an army of angels around him, but the young
boy with him and the opposing army could not see them!
But Elisha prayed that the young boy would be able to
see them and he did after that! =A0But it was not automatic,
even though the Heavenly host was there to fight the
opposing army! =A0But how did they fight them? =A0They
struck the opposing army with blindness and that
opposing army could not see to fight! =A0So yes they ere
there, but they were not seen! =A0So to be stubborn and
to say that angels doing things in the NT (even Revelation),
claiming that it absolutely must be physically literal and
be physically seen by human eyes is just that: stubbornness!

<insert comment - end>

This accent on the centrality of spiritual insight further
attests to the impossibility of a universal beholding
of Christ at his parousia. Faith is required to see the
theophanic exaltation of God's chosen mediators in
their vanishing amidst a stormcloud (p. 256).

"The cloud, of course, symbolizes the Divine Glory of God,
which, as always, must be hidden from men (even of faith),
due to their incapacity to see it in its unveiled splendor"
(ibid.).

[T]he cloud:

(a) Manifests by symbolic and representational means
=A0 =A0 the presence of the Divine Glory...

(b) Veils that glory from men, who cannot behold it...

(c) Exalts the one enveloped by the intimacy of the
=A0 =A0 association with the Divine Glory...

(d) Signals by its physical and visible rise into the
=A0 =A0 heavens the spiritual and invisible nature of
=A0 =A0 the exaltation of the one hidden by and enveloped
=A0 =A0 within the cloud

"[W]e must emphasize that the Lord Himself is invisible
and is only made visible by the symbolic and
representational cloud, which reveals the presence of
His Divine Glory by hiding it" (ibid.).

While [Acts 1:10-11] is generally cited to prove that
the glorified Jesus will Himself be personally visible
at His Second Coming, it is in fact the case that the
glorified Jesus cannot be seen by any man because
His glorified person is veiled, hidden, and enveloped
within the cloud of God's presence. ...Just as the
disciples had not seen Christ going up to Heaven,
but rather the cloud which veiled him and his Divine
Glory, so in the same manner, i.e., hidden within
the cloud, he would return (ibid.).

<insert comment - begin>

This is quite simple folks! =A0While you Futurists claim
that Jesus must be personally and physically seen
returning and try to use Acts 1:11 to prove it, reading
Acts 1:9-11 proves that He was *NOT* seen ascending!
Rather, it clearly says that He was not seen and that only
the cloud that took Him up was seen!

So when you try to single out one verse, instead of
reading all three together and claim that He must be
seen, you are being dishonest in your argument, or
being ignorant (you decide), because it says that He
was *NOT* seen!

<insert comment - end>

Some will probably be wondering at this point about the
reference in Rev. 1:7 to "every eye" seeing Him and how
this fits in with this interpretation. =A0It should be noted
that the word for "see" is often used not of sight, but
of perception. =A0For example, in John 14:19, Jesus says,
"He that has seen Me has seen the Father". =A0Or, "every
one that sees the Son and believes in Him shall have
everlasting life" (John 6:40). =A0Now, if you use the same
interpretation here as most do in Rev. 1:7, only those
who saw Jesus with their literal eyes could be saved!

We use the word "see" in the same manner today,
sometimes with literal intent: "I see clouds in the sky"
and with figurative intent at other times: "I see!".
As Paul wrote to the Ephesians, "May the eyes of
your understanding be enlightened" (Eph 1:18).

Some have said that the judgment of AD 70 didn't sound
like the "glorious appearing" of Christ mentioned in Titus
2:13. =A0This is likely the case with most who hold to
Futurist views of the Second Coming. =A0Having read
the fabulously imaginative descriptions of what Christ's
parousia (second coming) should be like in the popular
prophetic paperbacks, we have been conditioned to expect
certain phenomena. =A0We have been led to believe that
the return of Christ must be more spectacular than any
of Hollywood's most fantastic special effects. =A0And since
the reading of history has virtually become a thing of the
past, ignorance of the events surrounding the fall of Israel
in AD 66-70 abounds. =A0Even those that have attempted
some study of the first century must admit that reading
about the events isn't nearly as spectacular as watching
an exciting movie on the big screen. =A0Perhaps one day
a movie will be made, and the special effects wizards
will dazzle us with the wonders that took place during
that fateful war. =A0For now, however, we must be content
to read the eyewitness accounts recorded by Jewish and
Roman historians such as Josephus and Tacitus, and use
our imaginations.

Picture the disconcerting sight of a comet, shaped like a
sword, hanging over the city of Jerusalem for an entire
year; the massive Eastern Gate opening by itself, unearthly
light emanating from the temple, and the voice of God
thundering, "Let us depart from this place!"; and the
terrifying spectacle of angelic hosts in glittering battle
array surrounding the capital city and fighting against
it (see Josephus' Wars of the Jews 6:5:3; and Tacitus'
Histories 5:13). =A0Witness the hand of God striking those
that rejected His covenant, first with madness, then with
starvation and death (Wars 5:1:4-5; 6:3:3), and finally
selling them into slavery in Egypt (Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4).
This may all seem ho-hum to those of us raised with TV
and movie theaters, but to those who witnessed these
things in the first century, they were indeed spectacular,
and none could deny that they had seen the glorious
return of the righteous Judge! =A0As John Lightfoot said:

"Then shall the Son of man give proof of himself, whom
they would not before acknowledge: a proof, indeed,
not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment
so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be
forced to acknowledge him the avenger. =A0The Jews would
not know him: now they shall know him, whether they
will or no, Isa. 26:11. =A0Many times they asked of him
a sign: now a sign shall appear, that this is the true
Messiah, whom they despised, derided, and crucified,
namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never
any nation felt from the first foundations of the world
(A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud
and Hebraica, 4 vols. Oxford University Press, 1859;
reprinted by Hendrickson, Peabody, Mass., 1979.
Vol. 2, p. 320).

<insert comment - begin>

The bottom line is, that no, things today are nowhere near
as bad as they were then! =A0You think homosexuals have
free run now and think it's a sign of the end times? =A0Those
were over long ago and when the NT was being written,
you could go to a pagan temple and hire a young boy to
have sex with, wrshipping this false god/goddess! =A0Nero
had a young teen castrated and then married him as his
wife! =A0Christians were tarred and hung on poles or trees
along the road and lit on fire to light the streets at night
and burned alive!

There are many, many, many, many more things I could
list for you! =A0And as I said, things today are nowhere near
as bad as they were then! =A0NO! =A0You are NOT living in the
"worse generation ever" and yes, I am saying that things
today are not worse than they were and even the storms
and earthquakes today, are not worse than they were
back then!

So take you ego and vanity and squash it before responding,
please, because your vain desire to be the center of all
time, does not impress me, nor do I buy it, just because
you wanna be it!

So let's discuss this without your assumption that Jesus
came in the 1st century, just to talk right past His
disciples, because H ewas really talking to you!

And let's please discuss this, without the assumption that
His time machine must have broken, because you think
that He obviously must have missed the right century to
land in and so, just made the best of it!

And please stop thinking that you are the center of all time
and ask yourself 3 simple questions AND DON'T DUCK THEM!!!

1) If it's all about you in the 21st century, then why did
=A0 =A0Jesus come in the 1st century?

2) If the Bible is all about you today then why did God stop
=A0 =A0inspiring Scripture to be written in the 1st century?

3) Why do you believe that every time Jesus looked at His
=A0 =A0disciples and said, "When YOU see...", that He really
=A0 =A0meant, "When people in the 21st century see..."?

You have to face a fact! =A0Either Jesus kept His word in
Mat 24:34, or He was a liar! =A0And no, it does NOT SAY;
"The generation that sees these signs"! =A0You added those
words, so why do you quote Rev 22:18 to others and not
quote it to yourself?! =A0And since Jesus staked His
credibility on Mat 24:34 (which the Greek shows He did,
since it is very emphatic), why do you not apply Deut
to Him? =A0Because if He did not live up to what He said,
it means that He died for His own sin and not for ours,
under the Law, which He had to be under while walking
the Earth?

Deuterinomy 18:20-22

20) But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in
My name, which I have not commanded him to speak,
or who speaks in the name of other gods, THAT PROPHET
SHALL DIE.
21) And if you say in your heart, How shall we know
the word which the LORD has not spoken?
22) When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD,
if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is
the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet
has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid
of him.

So make your choice, people! =A0Believe Jesus did what
He said He would, WHEN He said He would, or He
died as a FALSE prophet, for HIS OWN sins!

<insert comment - end>

What a filibuster of complete bull-crap. =A0Few passages, other
than your blatant perversion and denial of the bodily
resurrection of the saints as set forth in 1 Corinthians 15
and Philippians 3:21, expose the lies of preterism, in a more
glaring fashion than Acts 1:9-11.

You're the one always telling us we should interpret the Bible
the way the people it was written to would have understood it.
Well, how would people who just saw Christ literally,
physically, and bodily ascend from the ground up into heaven,
have understood Christ would return, when they were told it
would be in the manner they just saw Him depart? =A0They would
have understood that Christ will return in the manner they
just saw Him depart, which was literally, physically, and
bodily, from heaven, back to earth!

Oh no, Dave couldn't admit that. =A0Why they must have had a
flash-back to Isaiah, where it talks about the Lord riding the
clouds in a spiritualized sense, and have thought that Christ
will not actually return in the manner they just saw Him
depart, but rather, only in some spiritual sense that
preterists claim! =A0What an aggravated system of glaring,
bold-faced lies is preterism!

=A92007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
--
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. =A0=862 Corinthians 10:5

Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).