| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Bible John" |
| Date: |
10 Nov 2005 08:52:35 AM |
| Object: |
How we can know if someone is saved |
There are a number of verses but here are just a few.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel
other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Gal. 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is
preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be
eternally condemned!
Gal. 1:10 ¶ Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am
I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would
not be a servant of Christ.
Gal. 1:11 ¶ I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is
not something that man made up.
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the
Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,
which he bought with his own blood.
Acts 20:29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among
you and will not spare the flock.
Acts 20:30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the
truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never
stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
Eph. 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but
rather expose them.
What all christians should be doing and not just conservatives.
Titus 2:15 ¶ These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and
rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
Titus 3:1 ¶ Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities,
to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,
Some take this out of context to conclude that they should argue with
the authorities or anyone in authority. This is not what is being
taught here.
1John 4:1 ¶ Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the
spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets
have gone out into the world.
Amen
SOME OF MY FAVORITES
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and
examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I always strive to do this with everyone. Many of the liberals do not
like it, but nevertheless its what God commanded. I always test them by
their doctrine and what they teach. If they do not teach the doctrine
that Jesus taught (on the faith), then I conclude they are not saved.
Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been
taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute
those who oppose it.
Refuting those who do not preach sound doctrine is the duty of all
christians. Some believe that these verses are only for elders, and yes
they are, but all christians have this duty and should have this duty,
especially in a day like today, when many pastors and elders do NOT
refute those who do not preach sound doctrine. Many today strive to
preach a message that appeals to men rather than God.
John 10:11 ¶ ³I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his
life for the sheep.
John 10:12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So
when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then
the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
John 10:13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares
nothing for the sheep.
This reminds me much of many pastors in the church today. Many care
little for their sheep. Many of the pastors today could care anything
about false doctrine and the savage wolves that often enter our churches.
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season;
correct, rebuke and encourage with great patience and careful
instruction.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound
doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around
them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to
hear.
2Tim. 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside
to myths.
This one I have memorized and so should all christians.
--
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
John 14:6 Jesus answered, ³I am the way and
the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me.
AIM-Crucifyself03
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| User: "Terrell" |
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| Title: Re: How we can know if someone is saved |
10 Nov 2005 09:05:56 AM |
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"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:john.doggett-2AE660.06523410112005@News-West.newsfeeds.com...
There are a number of verses but here are just a few.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel
other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Gal. 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is
preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be
eternally condemned!
Amen. That's why we continue to rebuke you, wolfie. You teach
Fundamentalism, a cult that has only been around for circa 200 years and
that is fairly unique to the US. It is you, wolfie, that teach "another
gospel."
--
Terrell
http://www.lastofall.com
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| User: "Bible John" |
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| Title: Re: How we can know if someone is saved |
10 Nov 2005 09:14:18 AM |
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In article <olJcf.4970$Lv.681@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
"Terrell" <composer7@NOSPAM.com> wrote:
Amen. That's why we continue to rebuke you, wolfie. You teach
Fundamentalism, a cult that has only been around for circa 200 years and
that is fairly unique to the US. It is you, wolfie, that teach "another
gospel."
If you are saved then answer these questions.
1. Why do you believe that the triune God is not a essential doctrine?
2. Why do you believe against the bible (2 Tim 3:16) and believe it is
not inerrant?
John
--
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
John 14:6 Jesus answered, ³I am the way and
the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me.
AIM-Crucifyself03
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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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| User: "Agent 007" |
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| Title: Godhead Re: How we can know if someone is saved |
11 Nov 2005 09:24:38 PM |
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"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:john.doggett-15D828.07134810112005@News-West.newsfeeds.com...
In article <olJcf.4970$Lv.681@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
"Terrell" <composer7@NOSPAM.com> wrote:
Amen. That's why we continue to rebuke you, wolfie. You teach
Fundamentalism, a cult that has only been around for circa 200 years and
that is fairly unique to the US. It is you, wolfie, that teach "another
gospel."
If you are saved then answer these questions.
1. Why do you believe that the triune God is not a essential doctrine?
Acts 17
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your
own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that
the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's
device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men
every where to repent:
Acts 17
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your
own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that
the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's
device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men
every where to repent:
Colossians 2
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after
the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after
Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and
power:
The Three Persons in the Godhead:
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion
of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen . 2 Cor. 13:14.
Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the
fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed
heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his
person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by
himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance
obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this
day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall
be to me a Son?
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| User: "Agent 007" |
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| Title: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
11 Nov 2005 09:33:03 PM |
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.......does that mean they are not repentant of the persecutions and that it
was meant to be? If they are infallible, then they should still believe
those persecutions were justified.
"Whosoever does not accept and rely upon the teachings of the Roman Church
and the Roman pontiff as the infallible rule of faith, and as that from
which Holy Scripture itself derives its obligation and authority, is a
heretic." Thus spoke the haughty Prierias,and then he proceeded to attack
Luther with the spirit of a buffoon and inquisitor, rather than with the
spirit of a calm and dignified defender of the church of Christ. (egw)
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
12 Nov 2005 06:51:35 PM |
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Agent 007 wrote:
......does that mean they are not repentant of the persecutions and that it
was meant to be? If they are infallible, then they should still believe
those persecutions were justified.
"Whosoever does not accept and rely upon the teachings of the Roman Church
and the Roman pontiff as the infallible rule of faith, and as that from
which Holy Scripture itself derives its obligation and authority, is a
heretic." Thus spoke the haughty Prierias,and then he proceeded to attack
Luther with the spirit of a buffoon and inquisitor, rather than with the
spirit of a calm and dignified defender of the church of Christ. (egw)
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of the
Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which he and
Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
12 Nov 2005 07:07:54 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
Agent 007 wrote:
......does that mean they are not repentant of the persecutions and
that it was meant to be? If they are infallible, then they should
still believe those persecutions were justified.
"Whosoever does not accept and rely upon the teachings of the Roman
Church and the Roman pontiff as the infallible rule of faith, and as
that from which Holy Scripture itself derives its obligation and
authority, is a heretic." Thus spoke the haughty Prierias,and then
he proceeded to attack Luther with the spirit of a buffoon and
inquisitor, rather than with the spirit of a calm and dignified
defender of the church of Christ. (egw)
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of the
Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which he and
Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
Luther made no changes to the bible beyond saying he didn't think the
Apocrypha belonged.
However he left it in and it remained in all bibles until 1880 or so.
It's interesting that this removal came about the same time as the
ministerium declared that the pope was now infallible. This was something
new.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 08:15:55 AM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:07:54 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of the
Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which he and
Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
Luther made no changes to the bible beyond saying he didn't think the
Apocrypha belonged.
However he left it in and it remained in all bibles until 1880 or so.
They took it out?
It's interesting that this removal came about the same time as the
ministerium declared that the pope was now infallible. This was something
new.
No, the Pope was always led by the Holy Spirit, and God can't be wrong.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 11:33:34 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:07:54 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of the
Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which he and
Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
Luther made no changes to the bible beyond saying he didn't think the
Apocrypha belonged.
However he left it in and it remained in all bibles until 1880 or so.
They took it out?
It's interesting that this removal came about the same time as the
ministerium declared that the pope was now infallible. This was something
new.
No, the Pope was always led by the Holy Spirit, and God can't be wrong.
===>So they CLAIM.
Of course they are even admitting they were wrong -- about the Jews,
about Galileo, etc.
You are just as illogical in your prejudice as a Catholic
as those "heretics" are as Protestants. -- L.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 05:16:20 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
duke wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:07:54 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of
the Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which
he and Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
Luther made no changes to the bible beyond saying he didn't think
the Apocrypha belonged.
However he left it in and it remained in all bibles until 1880 or
so.
They took it out?
It's interesting that this removal came about the same time as the
ministerium declared that the pope was now infallible. This was
something new.
No, the Pope was always led by the Holy Spirit, and God can't be
wrong.
===>So they CLAIM.
Of course they are even admitting they were wrong -- about the Jews,
about Galileo, etc.
You are just as illogical in your prejudice as a Catholic
as those "heretics" are as Protestants. -- L.
Do something nice for all of us and killfile "duke" who is not honest enough
to use his real name, Earl Weber.
He argues for the sake of arguing and never admits being wrong.
This is not unusual for his kind but the evil he demonstrated during Katrina
brought about a massive plonking by most of us.
He's not worth talking to and being ignored is probably the worst punishment
that can be imposed.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 05:51:24 PM |
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Mike Painter wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
duke wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:07:54 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of
the Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which
he and Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
Luther made no changes to the bible beyond saying he didn't think
the Apocrypha belonged.
However he left it in and it remained in all bibles until 1880 or
so.
They took it out?
It's interesting that this removal came about the same time as the
ministerium declared that the pope was now infallible. This was
something new.
No, the Pope was always led by the Holy Spirit, and God can't be
wrong.
===>So they CLAIM.
Of course they are even admitting they were wrong -- about the Jews,
about Galileo, etc.
You are just as illogical in your prejudice as a Catholic
as those "heretics" are as Protestants. -- L.
Do something nice for all of us and killfile "duke" who is not honest enough
to use his real name, Earl Weber.
He argues for the sake of arguing and never admits being wrong.
This is not unusual for his kind but the evil he demonstrated during Katrina
brought about a massive plonking by most of us.
He's not worth talking to and being ignored is probably the worst punishment
that can be imposed.
===>He claims to be a Catholic, but seems quite ignorant
about that religion. -- L.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 03:13:18 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:33:34 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Luther made no changes to the bible beyond saying he didn't think the
Apocrypha belonged.
However he left it in and it remained in all bibles until 1880 or so.
They took it out?
It's interesting that this removal came about the same time as the
ministerium declared that the pope was now infallible. This was something
new.
No, the Pope was always led by the Holy Spirit, and God can't be wrong.
===>So they CLAIM.
The Pope is an assignment from Christ.
Of course they are even admitting they were wrong -- about the Jews,
about Galileo, etc.
Men are wrong. God never is. The Pope is only infallible in matter of faith
and morals.
You are just as illogical in your prejudice as a Catholic
as those "heretics" are as Protestants. -- L.
Then let's talk.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 04:46:33 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:33:34 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Luther made no changes to the bible beyond saying he didn't think the
Apocrypha belonged.
However he left it in and it remained in all bibles until 1880 or so.
They took it out?
It's interesting that this removal came about the same time as the
ministerium declared that the pope was now infallible. This was something
new.
No, the Pope was always led by the Holy Spirit, and God can't be wrong.
===>So they CLAIM.
The Pope is an assignment from Christ.
===>WRONG.
The Pope is a chief priest elected by men.
Of course they are even admitting they were wrong -- about the Jews,
about Galileo, etc.
Men are wrong. God never is. The Pope is only infallible in matter of faith
and morals.
===>The matter of the Jews and Galileo (Giordano Bruno,
Savonarola, etc.) were "matters of faith".
And the actions against them showed incredibly poor morals. -- L.
You are just as illogical in your prejudice as a Catholic
as those "heretics" are as Protestants. -- L.
Then let's talk.
===>Go ahead, talk. -- L.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 05:15:30 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:46:33 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
The Pope is an assignment from Christ.
===>WRONG.
The Pope is a chief priest elected by men.
Wrong. Christ assigned Simon Peter as the first Pope. Mat 16:17-20.
Acts 15:7 is very enlightening.
Of course they are even admitting they were wrong -- about the Jews,
about Galileo, etc.
Men are wrong. God never is. The Pope is only infallible in matter of faith
and morals.
===>The matter of the Jews and Galileo (Giordano Bruno,
Savonarola, etc.) were "matters of faith".
Galileo beyond a shadow of a doubt. What do you mean by "Jews"?
And the actions against them showed incredibly poor morals. -- L.
This is your chance to reveal why.
The Jewish faith is part of my faith as a Christian. So that blows that out of
the water. Now what do you have to say about Galileo?
You are just as illogical in your prejudice as a Catholic
as those "heretics" are as Protestants. -- L.
Then let's talk.
===>Go ahead, talk. -- L.
I've already started. Your turn.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "DOC WATSON docwatson@yup" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 05:52:18 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:15:30 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said
the following funny stuff in this here little old new 'froup:
Wrong. Christ assigned Simon Peter as the first Pope. Mat 16:17-20.
WRONG as usual. Jesus never ever mentioned any so-called 'pope'.
That's another romanist lie.
--
Confucious say: "Don't judge people by their relatives!"
Sign in feudin' homestead: "Friends Welcome. Relatives by Appointment.!"
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| User: "Pastor Steve Winter" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
14 Nov 2005 08:51:09 AM |
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DOC WATSON <docwatson@yup> spake thusly and wrote:
WRONG as usual. Jesus never ever mentioned any so-called 'pope'.
That's another romanist lie.
The blatant hypocrisy of false-christian scum like Merle Elaine
Matthews says more about them than I ever could. How can these
deceitful scum like Merle make such a mockery of the Bible and
still expect to be taken seriously.
So far the deceiving, polytheistic false-christian dirt Merle
Elaine Matthews always changes the subject when she is asked what
the difference is between the trinity that she worships and the
trinity that the pope worships. That is because, in spite of her
ravings against "romanism", she is just as "romanist" as the pope
is and worships the EXACT same "Romanist" god squad.
In what way is Merle's Roman idol god squad different from the
popes three headed Roman idol god squad?
In what way is Merle's trinity cult baptism different than the
pope's trinity cult baptism?
Merle can't answer these questions without making major
admissions, eh? Merle is just as "Romanist" as the pope.
Pastor Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 05:49:30 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:46:33 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
The Pope is an assignment from Christ.
===>WRONG.
The Pope is a chief priest elected by men.
Wrong. Christ assigned Simon Peter as the first Pope. Mat 16:17-20.
===>It appears that verse is falsely applied, which is typical of Christians.
Protestants simply do it a lot more than Catholics.
Because EVEN IF that were the case, there is NOTHING SAID
about "Peter" being a "Pope" or having to have a "successor".
IESOUS was supposed to come back long before there was a
single "church".
Acts 15:7 is very enlightening.
===>Meaning what?
Acts, and ecclesiastic history, shows that it was Yakov ("James")
the brother of Iesous, not Peter, who was the head of the earliest group
following Iesous. In fact both Acts and the Pauline letters describe
Peter as acting as an ENVOY of Yakov.
Of course they are even admitting they were wrong -- about the Jews,
about Galileo, etc.
Men are wrong. God never is. The Pope is only infallible in matter of faith
and morals.
===>The matter of the Jews and Galileo (Giordano Bruno,
Savonarola, etc.) were "matters of faith".
Galileo beyond a shadow of a doubt. What do you mean by "Jews"?
===>The Church's attack on the Jews as "Christ killers".
The late Pope apologized for that. A great gesture of honesty and
humility on his part.
And the actions against them showed incredibly poor morals. -- L.
This is your chance to reveal why.
The Jewish faith is part of my faith as a Christian. So that blows that out of
the water. Now what do you have to say about Galileo?
===>The late Pope said all that needs to be said.
SEE: London Times
January 6, 1997
Pope will apologise to Jews for past errors
From Richard Owen In Rome
The Vatican is to apologise formally for the "anti-Semitic errors" of
Catholicism as part of an attempt to reconcile the three great monotheistic
religions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam - in time for the millennium.
Vatican officials said yesterday that the Pope had instructed a new
historical-theological commission to examine the persecution and torture
of Jews by the Inquisition in 15th-century Spain and to tackle the issue of
the sometimes ambivalent attitude of Catholics toward the Nazi elimination
of Jewish populations in occupied Europe during the Second World War.
The 76-year-old Pope, who counted many Jews among his friends in wartime
Poland, is increasingly preoccupied with the millennium, which he speaks of
in almost apocalyptic terms. He has rehabilitated a number
of famous "heretics", including Galileo and Darwin, as part of his pre-millennium
"squaring accounts with history".
Do you need more references?
You are just as illogical in your prejudice as a Catholic
as those "heretics" are as Protestants. -- L.
Then let's talk.
===>Go ahead, talk. -- L.
I've already started. Your turn.
===>And now, it is yours. -- L.
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Luther the REFORMER not rebel WAS: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
12 Nov 2005 07:12:52 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
Agent 007 wrote:
......does that mean they are not repentant of the persecutions and that it
was meant to be? If they are infallible, then they should still believe
those persecutions were justified.
"Whosoever does not accept and rely upon the teachings of the Roman Church
and the Roman pontiff as the infallible rule of faith, and as that from
which Holy Scripture itself derives its obligation and authority, is a
heretic." Thus spoke the haughty Prierias,and then he proceeded to attack
Luther with the spirit of a buffoon and inquisitor, rather than with the
spirit of a calm and dignified defender of the church of Christ. (egw)
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of the
Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which he and
Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
That's true Libertarius... most people don't realize that Luther was
not a radical who wanted to break from the church. He wanted certain
reforms WITHIN the church. It was Zwingli and Calvin who were the ones
who wanted to break away.
Here is an interesting radio interview on this topic.
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Nov_10c.wma
-KnA
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Luther the REFORMER not rebel WAS: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 02:16:17 PM |
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Carl Walther wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
Agent 007 wrote:
......does that mean they are not repentant of the persecutions and
that it was meant to be? If they are infallible, then they should
still believe those persecutions were justified.
"Whosoever does not accept and rely upon the teachings of the Roman
Church and the Roman pontiff as the infallible rule of faith, and
as that from which Holy Scripture itself derives its obligation and
authority, is a heretic." Thus spoke the haughty Prierias,and then
he proceeded to attack Luther with the spirit of a buffoon and
inquisitor, rather than with the spirit of a calm and dignified
defender of the church of Christ. (egw)
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of the
Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which he and
Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
That's true Libertarius... most people don't realize that Luther was
not a radical who wanted to break from the church. He wanted certain
reforms WITHIN the church. It was Zwingli and Calvin who were the ones
who wanted to break away.
Here is an interesting radio interview on this topic.
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Nov_10c.wma
That's what the young Luther wanted. Later he decided that there was no
need for priests and that everybody should be thier own minister.
In later life he out-poped the pope and said, "I do not admit that my
doctrine can be judged by anyone, even the angels. He who does not receive
my doctrine cannot be saved"
-- Martin Luther Werke (Erlangen),XXIX , 217-33, on Maritian, 15.
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| User: "markwise" |
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| Title: Re: Luther the REFORMER not rebel WAS: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 03:04:05 PM |
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Mike Painter wrote:
That's what the young Luther wanted. Later he decided that there was no
need for priests and that everybody should be thier own minister.
In later life he out-poped the pope and said, "I do not admit that my
doctrine can be judged by anyone, even the angels. He who does not receive
my doctrine cannot be saved"
-- Martin Luther Werke (Erlangen),XXIX , 217-33, on Maritian, 15.
Actually that's a bit of a misunderstanding of Luther's theology. He
never fully denied the need for priests, or rather the need for the
office of the public ministry (bishop/pastor/preacher), in place of
everyone being their own "minister."
"There must be bishops, pastors, or preachers, who publicly and
privately give, administer, and use the aforementioned four things or
holy possessions in behalf of and in the name of the church, or rather
by reason of their institution by Christ"
Luther, M. (1999, c1966). Vol. 41: Luther's works, vol. 41 : Church
and Ministry III (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.).
Luther's Works. Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
This being from his treatise "On the Councils and the Church" from
1539.
You can also see the Augsburg Confession article V which outlines the
need for the office of preacher. This was from 1530, although not
written directly by Luther it was directly reflective of his theology.
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Re: Luther the REFORMER not rebel WAS: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 05:16:37 PM |
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markwise wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
That's what the young Luther wanted. Later he decided that there was no
need for priests and that everybody should be thier own minister.
In later life he out-poped the pope and said, "I do not admit that my
doctrine can be judged by anyone, even the angels. He who does not receive
my doctrine cannot be saved"
-- Martin Luther Werke (Erlangen),XXIX , 217-33, on Maritian, 15.
Actually that's a bit of a misunderstanding of Luther's theology. He
never fully denied the need for priests, or rather the need for the
office of the public ministry (bishop/pastor/preacher), in place of
everyone being their own "minister."
"There must be bishops, pastors, or preachers, who publicly and
privately give, administer, and use the aforementioned four things or
holy possessions in behalf of and in the name of the church, or rather
by reason of their institution by Christ"
Luther, M. (1999, c1966). Vol. 41: Luther's works, vol. 41 : Church
and Ministry III (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.).
Luther's Works. Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
This being from his treatise "On the Councils and the Church" from
1539.
You can also see the Augsburg Confession article V which outlines the
need for the office of preacher. This was from 1530, although not
written directly by Luther it was directly reflective of his theology.
You certainly know your stuff, Markwise. Luther's comments on ministry
are usually taken out of context by followers of Zwingli and Calvin.
The small catechism makes it clear (among other confessional writings)
that the Office of the Public Ministry is for those who are rightly
called to serve as pastor of a congregation, not just "whoever wants
it".
God's peace,
--Carl
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: Luther the REFORMER not rebel WAS: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 07:04:14 AM |
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Uzytkownik "Carl Walther" <no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:1131844372.767967.314320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Libertarius wrote:
Agent 007 wrote:
......does that mean they are not repentant of the persecutions and
that it
was meant to be? If they are infallible, then they should still
believe
those persecutions were justified.
"Whosoever does not accept and rely upon the teachings of the Roman
Church
and the Roman pontiff as the infallible rule of faith, and as that
from
which Holy Scripture itself derives its obligation and authority, is a
heretic." Thus spoke the haughty Prierias,and then he proceeded to
attack
Luther with the spirit of a buffoon and inquisitor, rather than with
the
spirit of a calm and dignified defender of the church of Christ. (egw)
===>Yet, Luther accepted some 90% of the doctrines and dogmas of the
Catholic Church, even -- with some changes -- its Bible which he and
Protestants in general made into a PAPER POPE. -- L
That's true Libertarius... most people don't realize that Luther was
not a radical who wanted to break from the church. He wanted certain
reforms WITHIN the church. It was Zwingli and Calvin who were the ones
who wanted to break away.
Here is an interesting radio interview on this topic.
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Nov_10c.wma
-KnA
In general the reformation was not so much about us leaving the Catholic
church, as about us getting excommunicated, and in many cases burned.
If the Catholic church wants us back, then they must allow for our doctrines
to be represented at all levels.
The unbiblical doctrine of priestly celibacy effectively prevents us from
being able to join back with equal rights.
If that were not the case, I would see more sense in reuniting with
Catholics than with a good deal of protestantism gone wrong.
But ecumenism is no good when all it is about is making us play second
fiddle to tradition-followers, liturgists, sacerdotalists and mariolaters.
Uncle Davey
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| User: "DOC WATSON docwatson@yup" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
12 Nov 2005 02:17:30 PM |
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On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:33:03 -0800, "Agent 007" <Agent007@three.com>
said the following funny stuff in this here little old new 'froup:
......does that mean they are not repentant of the persecutions and that it
was meant to be? If they are infallible, then they should still believe
those persecutions were justified.
"Whosoever does not accept and rely upon the teachings of the Roman Church
and the Roman pontiff as the infallible rule of faith, and as that from
which Holy Scripture itself derives its obligation and authority, is a
heretic." Thus spoke the haughty Prierias,and then he proceeded to attack
Luther with the spirit of a buffoon and inquisitor, rather than with the
spirit of a calm and dignified defender of the church of Christ. (egw)
Nothing about the romanist cult is infallible. In daring to claim
their elected popoes are 'infallible', they are proven wrong every
time one of them takes sick or dies!
--
Confucious say: "Don't judge people by their relatives!"
Sign in feudin' homestead: "Friends Welcome. Relatives by Appointment.!"
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| User: "Agent 007" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
12 Nov 2005 05:39:22 PM |
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"DOC WATSON" <docwatson@yup> wrote in message
news:pbjcn15e77ealr2nso9ueee02ic4k1rbb5@4ax.com...
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:33:03 -0800, "Agent 007" <Agent007@three.com>
said the following funny stuff in this here little old new 'froup:
......does that mean they are not repentant of the persecutions and that
it
was meant to be? If they are infallible, then they should still believe
those persecutions were justified.
"Whosoever does not accept and rely upon the teachings of the Roman Church
and the Roman pontiff as the infallible rule of faith, and as that from
which Holy Scripture itself derives its obligation and authority, is a
heretic." Thus spoke the haughty Prierias,and then he proceeded to attack
Luther with the spirit of a buffoon and inquisitor, rather than with the
spirit of a calm and dignified defender of the church of Christ. (egw)
Nothing about the romanist cult is infallible. In daring to claim
their elected popoes are 'infallible', they are proven wrong every
time one of them takes sick or dies!
--
Confucious say: "Don't judge people by their relatives!"
Sign in feudin' homestead: "Friends Welcome. Relatives by Appointment.!"
Of course. I posted a text last night where Paul called out Peter on an
error he was making.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 08:11:28 AM |
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On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:39:22 -0800, "Agent 007" <Agent007@three.com> wrote:
Of course. I posted a text last night where Paul called out Peter on an
error he was making.
Right - man is a sinner - Heb 4:15.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "DOC WATSON docwatson@yup" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 10:02:05 AM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:11:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said
the following funny stuff in this here little old new 'froup:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:39:22 -0800, "Agent 007" <Agent007@three.com> wrote:
Of course. I posted a text last night where Paul called out Peter on an
error he was making.
Right - man is a sinner - Heb 4:15.
That also includes you elected popes. duke. THEY are sinners also.
duke
*****
--
Confucious say: "Don't judge people by their relatives!"
Sign in feudin' homestead: "Friends Welcome. Relatives by Appointment.!"
.
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| User: "Mike I" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 10:18:46 AM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:02:05 -0500, DOC WATSON <docwatson@yup> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:11:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said
the following funny stuff in this here little old new 'froup:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:39:22 -0800, "Agent 007" <Agent007@three.com> wrote:
Of course. I posted a text last night where Paul called out Peter on an
error he was making.
Right - man is a sinner - Heb 4:15.
That also includes you elected popes. duke. THEY are sinners also.
Where did you get the idea that they were not sinners Doc? I don't any
Catholics who think otherwise.
I'll ask you again:
Doc or 007 what do you think infallible means? How is it applied in
context with the Church and the seat of Peter?
--
Mike
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure
of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy
of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that
arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking
around." - Orthodoxy, 1908 G K Chesterton
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 03:11:18 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:18:46 -0600, Mike I <hope2basaint@nospamjustice.com>
wrote:
Right - man is a sinner - Heb 4:15.
That also includes you elected popes. duke. THEY are sinners also.
Where did you get the idea that they were not sinners Doc? I don't any
Catholics who think otherwise.
Doc is such a confused person.
I'll ask you again:
Doc or 007 what do you think infallible means? How is it applied in
context with the Church and the seat of Peter?
She will NEVER answer you.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Mike I" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 03:18:57 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:11:18 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:18:46 -0600, Mike I <hope2basaint@nospamjustice.com>
wrote:
Right - man is a sinner - Heb 4:15.
That also includes you elected popes. duke. THEY are sinners also.
Where did you get the idea that they were not sinners Doc? I don't any
Catholics who think otherwise.
Doc is such a confused person.
I'll ask you again:
Doc or 007 what do you think infallible means? How is it applied in
context with the Church and the seat of Peter?
She will NEVER answer you.
Good think I wasn't holding my breath.. huh :)
Pax
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
--
Mike
Common sense is not universal nor is it common...
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 05:10:18 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:18:57 -0600, Mike I <hope2basaint@nospamjustice.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:11:18 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:18:46 -0600, Mike I <hope2basaint@nospamjustice.com>
wrote:
Right - man is a sinner - Heb 4:15.
That also includes you elected popes. duke. THEY are sinners also.
Where did you get the idea that they were not sinners Doc? I don't any
Catholics who think otherwise.
Doc is such a confused person.
I'll ask you again:
Doc or 007 what do you think infallible means? How is it applied in
context with the Church and the seat of Peter?
She will NEVER answer you.
Good think I wasn't holding my breath.. huh :)
Pax
There's nothing more frightening to someone like doc than a Roman Catholic who
knows scripture.
As soon as you get the "these" Protest_ants out of the OT and into the NT, they
are blown away.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If the Catholic Church is Infallible...... |
13 Nov 2005 03:10:23 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:02:05 -0500, DOC WATSON <docwatson@yup> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:11:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said
the following funny stuff in this here little old new 'froup:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:39:22 -0800, "Agent 007" <Agent007@three.com> wrote:
Of course. I posted a text last night where Paul called out Peter on an
error he was making.
Right - man is a sinner - Heb 4:15.
That also includes you elected popes. duke. THEY are sinners also.
As long as the Pope is a man, yes he is a sinner. And every day at Mass, the
Pope says "I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be
healed".
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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