If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger.



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Ghamph"
Date: 17 Jan 2008 05:26:25 PM
Object: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger.
If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger.
The alleged (all powerful super being) God, if He wanted us to believe in
Him, He would just snap His finger.
What that means is, that God doesn't want us to know that He exists.
Or, He doesn't exist at all.
That's the bottom line, even a child could understand that.
.

User: "Read The Bible"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 18 Jan 2008 04:39:53 AM

Ghamph said on Jan 17, 3:26 pm:
If God wanted us to believe He would snap his
finger

If God the Father wants people to have a saving
faith in His Son Jesus Christ, He miraculously gives
them this faith: "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of
God" (Ephesians 2:8). "Not of yourselves" means that
people cannot gain a saving faith in Jesus Christ
except by God the Father's miraculous gift: "No man
can come unto me, except it were given unto him of
my Father" (John 6:65). "No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John
6:44). "As many as were ordained to eternal life
believed" (Acts 13:48).

Ghamph said:
The alleged (all powerful super being) God ...

Not alleged; God truly is omnipotent: "Ah, Lord GOD
[YHWH], behold, thou hast made the heaven and the
earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and
there is nothing too hard for thee" (Jeremiah 32:17).
Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is also God,
for "unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for
ever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8); and so Jesus too is
omnipotent: "And Jesus came and spake unto them,
saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in
earth" (Matthew 28:18).

Ghamph said:
... God doesn't want us to know that He exists.

He must, for "the heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day
uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth
knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where
their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out
through all the earth, and their words to the end of
the world" (Psalms 19:1-4).
There is no excuse for people not believing in the
existence of God, "because that which may be known
of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it
unto them. For the invisible things of him from the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being
understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
excuse. Because that, when they knew God, they
glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but
became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish
heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise,
they became fools" (Romans 1:19-22). "The fool hath
said in his heart, There is no God" (Psalms 14:1).
So it's not that God doesn't want people to know that
He exists; it's that people don't want to retain the
knowledge that He exists, but want to replace it with
foolish inventions of their own imaginations.
But even if people do come around to admitting that
God exists, that still doesn't save them, for "Thou
believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the
devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know,
O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James
2:19-20). This means that what matters is what works
accompany belief in God's existence; a merely
intellectual acknowledgment of His existence means
nothing, for even the demons headed for hellfire
believe in His existence. People can "profess that
they know God, but in works they deny him, being
abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work
reprobate" (Titus 1:16).
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we
might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said
unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe
on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:28-29). So the
first work people must do to be saved is believe in
Jesus Christ, the Son of God: "For God so loved the
world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life ... He that believeth on the
Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not
the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God
abideth on him" (John 3:16,36). "Jesus saith unto
him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6);
"Jesus Christ of Nazareth ... Neither is there
salvation in any other: for there is none other name
under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
saved" (Acts 4:10,12).
But a merely intellectual acknowledgment that Jesus
of Nazareth is the Christ, the Son of God, means
nothing, for even the demons headed for hellfire
believe that: "And devils also came out of many,
crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of
God" (Luke 4:41); "And there was in their synagogue
a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out,
Saying, Let us alone, what have we to do with thee,
thou Jesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy us?
I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God" (Mark
1:23-24).
What matters is what works accompany belief in
Jesus: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord,
Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he
that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"
(Matthew 7:21); "He [Jesus] became the author of
eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"
(Hebrews 5:9).
The first thing people who believe in Jesus must
do to do the will of the Father and to obey Jesus
is to "Believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). "And [Jesus]
said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it
behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead
the third day: And that repentance and remission of
sins should be preached in his name among all
nations" (Luke 24:46-47). "Go ye into all the world,
and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark
16:15). "I declare unto you the gospel which I
preached unto you, which also ye have received, and
wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye
keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye
have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first
of all that which I also received, how that Christ
died for our sins according to the scriptures; and
that he was buried, and that he rose again the third
day according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians
15:1-4).
Once people have faith in the gospel, this still
doesn't assure their salvation, for they, by their
own free will, can choose to turn away from this
faith and believe instead demonic doctrines which
support their continuing in their favorite lusts:
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the
latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving
heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience
seared with a hot iron" (1 Timothy 4:1-2). "Preach
the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and
doctrine. For the time will come when they will not
endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts
shall they heap to themselves teachers, having
itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears
from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables"
(2 Timothy 4:2-4). "Because iniquity shall abound,
the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:12).
"It is impossible for those who were once
enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have
tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the
world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew
them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to
themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an
open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain
that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs
meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth
blessing from God; but that which beareth thorns and
briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing, whose
end is to be burned" (Hebrews 6:4-8).
Even if people don't commit apostasy, but continue
to have faith in the gospel, this still doesn't
assure their salvation, for they, by their own free
will, can choose to continue in their favorite lusts
without any repentance, wrongly thinking that God's
grace covers even unrepentant sin: "For if we sin
wilfully after that we have received the knowledge
of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for
sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment
and fiery indignation, which shall devour the
adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died
without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how
much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son
of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and
hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
(Hebrews 10:26-29).
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit
the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the
kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). "Now the
works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations,
wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings,
murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of
the which I tell you before, as I have also told you
in time past, that they which do such things shall
not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).
"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish"
(Luke 13:3).
No amount of good works done in the name of Jesus
can ever outweigh unrepentant sin, for "Many will
say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast
out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful
works? And then will I profess unto them, I never
knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
(Matthew 7:22-23).
They must have not repented, for "If we confess our
sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
(1 John 1:9).
Repentance, like saving faith, is received as a gift
from God to those He chooses: "God peradventure will
give them repentance to the acknowledging of the
truth; and that they may recover themselves out of
the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him
at his will" (2 Timothy 2:25-26); "He that committeth
sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8).
God allows some people to continue in their sins for
so long that they no longer feel guilty for them,
"having their conscience seared with a hot iron"
(1 Timothy 4:2). "Because sentence against an evil
work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart
of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil"
(Ecclesiastes 8:11).
God can even harden some sinners so that they will
never repent: "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he
will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou
wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?
-For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who
art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing
formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made
me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of
the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and
another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew
his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with
much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to
destruction: and that he might make known the riches
of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had
afore prepared unto glory" (Romans 9:18-23).
This doesn't mean that God ever makes anyone sin,
for "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted
of God. For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither
tempteth he any man. But every man is tempted, when
he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then
when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and
sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death"
(James 1:13-15).
So when God hardens somebody, He's simply causing
them to persist in what their own lust has already
drawn them into over and over and over again. It's
only by God's miraculous grace, through Jesus Christ,
that people can ever escape from their slavery to
sin: "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of
sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for
ever, but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore
shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed"
(John 8:34-36).
If people want to be freed from the terrible,
urgent, dictatorship of lust in their lives, day
after day after day, all they can do is cry out to
God, through Jesus Christ, and ask that He would
deliver them from all lust, temptation, and sin,
every sinful thought and action: "Casting down
imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth
itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing
into captivity every thought to the obedience of
Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5). "And ye know that he
was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is
no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known
him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he
that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he
is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the
devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For
this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is
born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed
remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is
born of God. In this the children of God are
manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever
doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he
that loveth not his brother" (1 John 3:5-10).
But people have to be diligent in crying out to God;
they have to be willing to cry out over and over and
over again; they have to make sure that they truly
do not want to ever sin again, and that they truly
believe that God has the power, if He wants to give
them repentance, to snap His fingers, and, voila,
their lustful fantasies will no longer appear, the
images of sinful actions will no longer come
forcefully into their minds; temptation's urgent,
"DO IT NOW!", power over their will will vanish;
and they will realize that sin's chains have
melted away, that they are truly free.
But none of this liberation is possible if people
have chosen to reject their knowledge of God's
existence, for "without faith it is impossible to
please him: for he that cometh to God must believe
that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that
diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6).
People must be willing to not only believe in God's
existence, but also to diligently seek Him, through
Jesus Christ, over and over and over again, if they
are ever to be freed from sin, their adversary: "And
he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men
ought always to pray, and not to faint; saying, There
was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither
regarded man. And there was a widow in that city, and
she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine
adversary. And he would not for a while, but
afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not
God, nor regard man, yet because this widow troubleth
me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming
she weary me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust
judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect,
which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long
with them? I tell you that he will avenge them
speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:1-8).
.
User: "Chuck Stamford"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 18 Jan 2008 11:42:52 PM
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9bfad650-19b7-4340-9b5b-d359f4a08cc4@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Ghamph said on Jan 17, 3:26 pm:
If God wanted us to believe He would snap his
finger


If God the Father wants people to have a saving
faith in His Son Jesus Christ, He miraculously gives
them this faith: "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of
God" (Ephesians 2:8). "Not of yourselves" means that
people cannot gain a saving faith in Jesus Christ
except by God the Father's miraculous gift: "No man
can come unto me, except it were given unto him of
my Father" (John 6:65). "No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John
6:44). "As many as were ordained to eternal life
believed" (Acts 13:48).

This needs some qualification or it can easily be misconstrued. I see,
having skimmed your below, that what you have there in effect DOES qualify
the above, but I thought I'd add to it here for those who don't get that far
in your post, or for whom your effectual qualifying of it below is not
clear; looks like a denial of what you've got above.
Faith isn't the sort of thing God can "inject" into someone while they're
sleeping or otherwise unconscious. Further, if it is solely up to God
whether one has saving faith, it becomes impossible to explain God as
perfectly good in a creation of His where the fact is, as Jesus told us:
"[w]ide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and
there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is
the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt 7:13-14
If God alone is responsible for people being saved, and many are not saved,
then it is difficult to explain how God ALONE is not responsible for their
loss to "destruction". And if God alone is responsible for the torment of so
many persons, it becomes EXTREMELY difficult to construct any coherent
explanation for the biblical claim that God is perfectly good.
The free will defense is the only way to escape here; the only sound
argument by which the Christian philosopher/theologian can respond to the
argument from evil against the existence of the Christian God. Without this
defense, the atheist Mackie is correct, and there is an inherent
contradiction present in the conjunction of the two premises:
1.) God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, and
2.) There is evil in the world
So I would be very careful about how I stressed the fact that without God's
acting in the world to save us from our sins, we would be lost. That's
true, but it does not follow from it being true that we have no part to
play; cannot thwart the perfect will of God by our significantly free
choices and actions. It is a Divine truth that it is by grace ALONE that we
are saved, through faith that is a gift of God, but that doesn't entail we
are not free to accept or reject the gift. We are "elect" of God from the
foundation of the world, not in the sense that God forces us to believe and
be saved, but in the sense of His perfect knowledge of all things. He has
known which of us would accept His gift from the foundation of the world,
and thus, which of us are His "elect" and "predestined" to salvation.
God bless
Chuck


Ghamph said:
The alleged (all powerful super being) God ...


Not alleged; God truly is omnipotent: "Ah, Lord GOD
[YHWH], behold, thou hast made the heaven and the
earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and
there is nothing too hard for thee" (Jeremiah 32:17).

Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is also God,
for "unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for
ever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8); and so Jesus too is
omnipotent: "And Jesus came and spake unto them,
saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in
earth" (Matthew 28:18).

Ghamph said:
... God doesn't want us to know that He exists.


He must, for "the heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day
uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth
knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where
their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out
through all the earth, and their words to the end of
the world" (Psalms 19:1-4).

There is no excuse for people not believing in the
existence of God, "because that which may be known
of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it
unto them. For the invisible things of him from the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being
understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
excuse. Because that, when they knew God, they
glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but
became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish
heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise,
they became fools" (Romans 1:19-22). "The fool hath
said in his heart, There is no God" (Psalms 14:1).

So it's not that God doesn't want people to know that
He exists; it's that people don't want to retain the
knowledge that He exists, but want to replace it with
foolish inventions of their own imaginations.

But even if people do come around to admitting that
God exists, that still doesn't save them, for "Thou
believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the
devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know,
O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James
2:19-20). This means that what matters is what works
accompany belief in God's existence; a merely
intellectual acknowledgment of His existence means
nothing, for even the demons headed for hellfire
believe in His existence. People can "profess that
they know God, but in works they deny him, being
abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work
reprobate" (Titus 1:16).

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we
might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said
unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe
on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:28-29). So the
first work people must do to be saved is believe in
Jesus Christ, the Son of God: "For God so loved the
world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life ... He that believeth on the
Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not
the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God
abideth on him" (John 3:16,36). "Jesus saith unto
him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6);
"Jesus Christ of Nazareth ... Neither is there
salvation in any other: for there is none other name
under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
saved" (Acts 4:10,12).

But a merely intellectual acknowledgment that Jesus
of Nazareth is the Christ, the Son of God, means
nothing, for even the demons headed for hellfire
believe that: "And devils also came out of many,
crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of
God" (Luke 4:41); "And there was in their synagogue
a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out,
Saying, Let us alone, what have we to do with thee,
thou Jesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy us?
I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God" (Mark
1:23-24).

What matters is what works accompany belief in
Jesus: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord,
Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he
that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"
(Matthew 7:21); "He [Jesus] became the author of
eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"
(Hebrews 5:9).

The first thing people who believe in Jesus must
do to do the will of the Father and to obey Jesus
is to "Believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). "And [Jesus]
said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it
behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead
the third day: And that repentance and remission of
sins should be preached in his name among all
nations" (Luke 24:46-47). "Go ye into all the world,
and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark
16:15). "I declare unto you the gospel which I
preached unto you, which also ye have received, and
wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye
keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye
have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first
of all that which I also received, how that Christ
died for our sins according to the scriptures; and
that he was buried, and that he rose again the third
day according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians
15:1-4).

Once people have faith in the gospel, this still
doesn't assure their salvation, for they, by their
own free will, can choose to turn away from this
faith and believe instead demonic doctrines which
support their continuing in their favorite lusts:
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the
latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving
heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience
seared with a hot iron" (1 Timothy 4:1-2). "Preach
the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and
doctrine. For the time will come when they will not
endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts
shall they heap to themselves teachers, having
itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears
from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables"
(2 Timothy 4:2-4). "Because iniquity shall abound,
the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:12).

"It is impossible for those who were once
enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have
tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the
world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew
them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to
themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an
open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain
that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs
meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth
blessing from God; but that which beareth thorns and
briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing, whose
end is to be burned" (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Even if people don't commit apostasy, but continue
to have faith in the gospel, this still doesn't
assure their salvation, for they, by their own free
will, can choose to continue in their favorite lusts
without any repentance, wrongly thinking that God's
grace covers even unrepentant sin: "For if we sin
wilfully after that we have received the knowledge
of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for
sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment
and fiery indignation, which shall devour the
adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died
without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how
much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son
of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and
hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
(Hebrews 10:26-29).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit
the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the
kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). "Now the
works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations,
wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings,
murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of
the which I tell you before, as I have also told you
in time past, that they which do such things shall
not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish"
(Luke 13:3).

No amount of good works done in the name of Jesus
can ever outweigh unrepentant sin, for "Many will
say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast
out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful
works? And then will I profess unto them, I never
knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
(Matthew 7:22-23).

They must have not repented, for "If we confess our
sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
(1 John 1:9).

Repentance, like saving faith, is received as a gift
from God to those He chooses: "God peradventure will
give them repentance to the acknowledging of the
truth; and that they may recover themselves out of
the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him
at his will" (2 Timothy 2:25-26); "He that committeth
sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8).

God allows some people to continue in their sins for
so long that they no longer feel guilty for them,
"having their conscience seared with a hot iron"
(1 Timothy 4:2). "Because sentence against an evil
work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart
of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil"
(Ecclesiastes 8:11).

God can even harden some sinners so that they will
never repent: "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he
will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou
wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?
-For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who
art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing
formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made
me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of
the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and
another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew
his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with
much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to
destruction: and that he might make known the riches
of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had
afore prepared unto glory" (Romans 9:18-23).

This doesn't mean that God ever makes anyone sin,
for "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted
of God. For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither
tempteth he any man. But every man is tempted, when
he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then
when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and
sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death"
(James 1:13-15).

So when God hardens somebody, He's simply causing
them to persist in what their own lust has already
drawn them into over and over and over again. It's
only by God's miraculous grace, through Jesus Christ,
that people can ever escape from their slavery to
sin: "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of
sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for
ever, but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore
shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed"
(John 8:34-36).

If people want to be freed from the terrible,
urgent, dictatorship of lust in their lives, day
after day after day, all they can do is cry out to
God, through Jesus Christ, and ask that He would
deliver them from all lust, temptation, and sin,
every sinful thought and action: "Casting down
imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth
itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing
into captivity every thought to the obedience of
Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5). "And ye know that he
was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is
no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known
him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he
that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he
is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the
devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For
this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is
born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed
remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is
born of God. In this the children of God are
manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever
doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he
that loveth not his brother" (1 John 3:5-10).

But people have to be diligent in crying out to God;
they have to be willing to cry out over and over and
over again; they have to make sure that they truly
do not want to ever sin again, and that they truly
believe that God has the power, if He wants to give
them repentance, to snap His fingers, and, voila,
their lustful fantasies will no longer appear, the
images of sinful actions will no longer come
forcefully into their minds; temptation's urgent,
"DO IT NOW!", power over their will will vanish;
and they will realize that sin's chains have
melted away, that they are truly free.

But none of this liberation is possible if people
have chosen to reject their knowledge of God's
existence, for "without faith it is impossible to
please him: for he that cometh to God must believe
that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that
diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6).

People must be willing to not only believe in God's
existence, but also to diligently seek Him, through
Jesus Christ, over and over and over again, if they
are ever to be freed from sin, their adversary: "And
he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men
ought always to pray, and not to faint; saying, There
was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither
regarded man. And there was a widow in that city, and
she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine
adversary. And he would not for a while, but
afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not
God, nor regard man, yet because this widow troubleth
me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming
she weary me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust
judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect,
which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long
with them? I tell you that he will avenge them
speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:1-8).

.
User: "Read The Bible"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 19 Jan 2008 04:57:02 AM

Chuck Stamford said on Jan 18, 9:42 pm:
Faith isn't the sort of thing God can "inject"
into someone while they're sleeping or otherwise
unconscious.

God could give people His gift of saving faith in
Jesus even while they were sleeping, by having Jesus
Himself appear to them in a dream and tell them of
His death on the cross for their sins and His rising
from the dead on the third day, or by causing them to
have a dream whereby someone was preaching this
Gospel to them. God could give people His gift of
saving faith in Jesus even while they were
unconscious, even while they were technically "dead"
on an operating table, for their soul could have a
"near death experience" of Jesus, so that when they
were resuscitated on the operating table and returned
to consciousness they would immediately want to tell
everyone about what they saw and about their new
faith in Jesus.
But these would be exceptional cases, for God usually
gives people His gift of saving faith in Jesus by
sending other people to them to preach the Gospel to
them while they are awake: "How then shall they call
on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall
they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And
how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall
they preach, except they be sent? As it is written,
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the
gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good
things" (Romans 10:14-15).
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the
word of God" (Romans 10:17). This would include
someone hearing the words of the Bible spoken to
him, whether in person or on a Bible CD, or someone
"hearing" the Word in his mind as he reads scripture
quotations on the internet or in a tract, or as he
reads an electronic Bible on his computer or a
printed Bible given to him by his friend.

Chuck said:
... if it is solely up to God whether one has
saving faith, it becomes impossible to explain God
as perfectly good

It doesn't become impossible, for God's perfect
goodness has no logical connection to His sovereign
choosing of who gets to receive His gift of saving
faith and who doesn't. His passing over people, even
His hardening the hearts of people who have by their
own free will already chosen sin over Him, in no way
changes His perfect goodness (which He shows to those
He graciously grants saving faith to), but allows Him
to also reveal His wrath and make His power known.
God can practice double predestination, that is,
assign some people to eternal life and others to
eternal damnation, even before they have been born,
without this affecting His perfect goodness, His
perfect righteousness, in any way.
"For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but
of him that calleth, it was said unto her [Rebecca],
The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
|
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with
God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have
mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have
compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it
is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture
saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have
I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee,
and that my name might be declared throughout all the
earth.
|
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then
unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath
resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that
repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to
him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath
not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump
to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto
dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath,
and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to
destruction, and that he might make known the riches
of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had
afore prepared unto glory" (Romans 9:11-23).
Those who are saved were predestined by God to be
saved: "According as he hath chosen us in him before
the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love, having
predestinated us unto the adoption of children by
Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good
pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of
his grace" (Ephesians 1:4-6). "For whom he did
foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed
to the image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did
predestinate, them he also called; and whom he
called, them he also justified; and whom he
justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).
Those who are damned were predestined by God to be
damned: "Before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men" (Jude 1:4); "Them which stumble at the
word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were
appointed" (1 Peter 2:8). This doesn't mean that God
ever makes people be ungodly or disobedient, for "Let
no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God;
for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither
tempteth he any man. But every man is tempted, when
he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then
when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin, and
sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death"
(James 1:13-15). So people sin by their own free
will.
At the same time, even their most heinous sins were
all predetermined by God, for "Him [Jesus], being
delivered by the determinate counsel and
foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked
hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).
But how can this be? How can they have "free" will
yet be under the "determinate" counsel and
foreknowledge of God, so that there is no way that
they will choose to do anything different than what
God has already determined that they will choose to
do? How can God's counsel and foreknowledge
determine how people employ their free will?
In this way: In His omniscience, before He even
created the world, God could foresee all the possible
timeline-sequences of all the possible free-willed
actions of all people throughout the entire history
of mankind. There would be an infinite number of
possible timeline-sequences, for a single change of
mind by a single person, so that they chose to do B
instead of A, would require a separate timeline-
sequence.
Looking over the infinite number of different
timeline-sequences, God chose that one in which He
could best reveal both His mercy and glory on the
one hand, and His wrath and power on the other: "What
if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the
vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, and that he
might make known the riches of his glory on the
vessels of mercy" (Romans 9:22-23).
The revelation of God's mercy and the revelation of
His wrath both require that people choose to commit
sin, for His mercy is mercy toward sinners, and His
wrath is wrath toward sinners. So the timeline-
sequence He chose to bring into actual existence
would have to be one of those in which everyone, by
their own free will, would choose to commit sin:
"All have sinned" (Romans 3:23). And He picked among
the timeline-sequences in which everyone would
choose to commit sin until He found that one
timeline-sequence where people would choose to commit
exactly those sins which would give Him the best
opportunity to completely reveal His mercy and His
wrath.
Once He brought that particular timeline-sequence
into actual existence, everyone's actions were set
in stone, as it were, before they had even committed
them, before they had even been born. And yet when
the time came for them to act, they would act by
their own free will. God wouldn't be making them do
anything, even though what they did was already
completely foreordained and appointed by God through
His determinate counsel and foreknowledge.

Chuck said:
Jesus told us: "[w]ide is the gate and broad is
the way that leads to destruction, and there are
many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate
and difficult is the way which leads to life, and
there are few who find it." [Matthew] 7:13-14

The few who find it are the few whom God alone has
chosen to find it, "for many be called, but few
chosen" (Matthew 20:16); "God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation" (2 Thessalonians 2:13);
"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed"
(Acts 13:48).

Chuck said:
If God alone is responsible for people being saved,
and many are not saved, then it is difficult to
explain how God ALONE is not responsible for their
loss to "destruction".

Of course He alone is reponsible for their damnation
insofar as He alone can damn anyone, but He is not
responsible for their sin which is the reason for
their damnation, for they committed their sin by
their own free will. At the same time, He is
responsible for bringing into actual existence a
particular timeline-sequence in which they chose to
commit sin, instead of bringing into actual existence
some other timeline-sequence in which they never
chose to commit sin. But even His choice in that
regard in no way impinges on His perfect goodness,
His perfect righteousness, for as the Sovereign
Creator God He can bring people into actual existence
in any form that He pleases: "Thou wilt say then unto
me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted
his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest
against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that
formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the
potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
(Romans 9:19-21).
Now someone could say, "Hold on a minute. We're not
talking inanimate pots here; we're talking conscious
entities. What right does God have to purposely
bring into actual existence conscious entities in a
sinful form just so that He can torture them
forever? If that is not the ultimate evil, what is?"
It is no evil at all; what is evil, even the ultimate
evil, is the pride of an infinitesimal creature
thinking that it has any say over the morality of
what the infinite God does or doesn't do. That is
the Satanic pride which is the downfall of all who
are damned: thinking that they know better than God.
They forget that to the infinite God, all together we
are less than nothing: "Behold, the nations are as a
drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust
of the balance ... All nations before him are as
nothing, and they are counted to him less than
nothing, and vanity. To whom then will ye liken God?
Or what likeness will ye compare unto him?" (Isaiah
40:15-18).
Compared with God, we are infinitely smaller than
bacteria are compared with us. How many of us wring
our hands over what happens to bacteria, or think
that the bacteria should be able to shout out to
us: "How evil you are spraying that disinfectant on
us! How evil you are boiling us to death!"
Someone could answer, "Hold on, you're going back
to basically unconscious things, instead of sticking
with creatures with consciousness".
But who's to say that even bacteria don't have some
unknown form or level of consciousness, one which we
don't deign to even imagine because we think that our
form or level of consciousness is so "advanced". If
we are all together "less than nothing" compared with
God, then that includes our level of consciousness
compared with His own Consciousness. Compared with
ours, His Consciousness is infinitely more advanced
than our consciousness is compared with bacteria.
Someone could answer, "Okay, but who among us would
want to create a strain of bacteria just so that he
could torture most of it forever, except some
psycho?"
That's misunderstanding God's reaction to the eternal
torture of the damned. He doesn't do it in order to
get some sick pleasure out of their suffering per se,
for, "As I live, saith the Lord GOD [YHWH], I have no
pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezekiel 33:11).
Rather, His pleasure derives from His bringing into
existence an opportunity to fully and eternally
reveal His wrath and power: "Thou art worthy, O Lord,
to receive glory and honour and power, for thou hast
created all things, and for thy pleasure they are
and were created" (Revelation 4:11); "The LORD [YHWH]
hath made all things for himself, yea, even the
wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4); "What if
God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of
wrath fitted to destruction" (Romans 9:22).
Someone could answer, "Still, even if God takes no
pleasure in the actual suffering itself, He still is
deriving pleasure from a situation which requires
that suffering. And that is evil".
No, it isn't. What is evil is the pride of
infinitesmal man to think that his suffering is more
important than the pleasure of the infinite God.
Calling the eternal suffering of the damned evil is
an attempt to make man more important than God, and
so is just another expression of the root cause of
all sinfulness: that Satanic pride that thinks one
should be able to be, nay, is wholly worthy to be,
just like God: "For thou hast said in thine heart, I
will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above
the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of
the congregation, in the sides of the north; I will
ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be
like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to
hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isaiah 14:13-15).
Satan knows that His ultimate fate will be eternal
torture in the lake of fire: "Having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time"
(Revelation 12:12); "And the devil that deceived
them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall
be tormented day and night for ever and ever"
(Revelation 20:10).
But He still cannot give up His pride. He would
rather be tortured forever than bow down and submit
to God. There are some people who feel the same way,
and so Satan doesn't have to deceive them about
anything besides deceiving them into thinking that
God is evil. But because most people would rather do
anything than be tortured forever, even bow down
before a supposedly "evil" God, Satan has to deceive
them in other ways in order to get them to continue
in their unrepentant sin. For example, he gets some
to believe that God doesn't even exist, so there will
be no recompense for their sin. He gets others to
believe that God is too loving to ever torture
anyone, no matter what they do without repentance,
so that they can expect no serious recompense for
their unrepentant sin.
Satan's ultimate deception could come during the
coming tribulation, when he could convince the world
that he, "Lucifer the Divine Dragon", and his
"Divine" human "Son" (known to believers as the
Antichrist or the beast), are actually "The real God,
while YHWH is just a puny imposter, one which
mankind, once united behind Lucifer and His Son, will
be able to defeat whenever YHWH dares to show his
vile face; and so mankind will be forever free from
any fear of eternal torture at the hands of that evil
tyrant YHWH".
The whole world will be so convinced by Satan's
deception during the coming tribulation that they
will worship him and the Antichrist, and revile
YHWH and kill His followers: "And they worshipped
the dragon which gave power unto the beast, and they
worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the
beast? Who is able to make war with him? And there
was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and
blasphemies; and power was given unto him to
continue forty and two months. And he opened his
mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his
name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in
heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with
the saints, and to overcome them. And power was given
him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And
all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life of
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
(Revelation 13:4-8).
So Satan will have his ultimate way with mankind for
about 3 1/2 years (possibly during 2013-2016). But
when he knows that his time is just about up, that
the second coming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth is only
a couple of months away, he could tell the world that
"It is the evil YHWH who has dared to muster his
pathetic forces and is now approaching the planet.
Together, we have all the power that we need to
completely defeat him, as the miracles we have
performed prove. So let all the armies of the world
gather together against him and when he arrives we
will finally see his end, and be free of him forever".
"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out
of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of
the beast, and out of the mouth of the false
prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working
miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth
and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle
of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as
a thief" (Revelation 16:13-15). "And I saw heaven
opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat
upon him was called Faithful and True, and in
righteousness he doth judge and make war ... And I
saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their
armies, gathered together to make war against him
that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the
beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that
wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived
them that had received the mark of the beast, and
them that worshipped his image. These both were cast
alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And
the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat
upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his
mouth; and all the fowls were filled with their
flesh" (Revelation 19:11,19-21).
But a mere physical death will not be the ultimate
fate of the followers of Satan, whether they
unwittingly followed him by committing unrepentant
sin until they died before the tribulation, or
whether they consciously worshipped him during the
tribulation; no, their ultimate fate will be
Satan's own. Satan will succeed through deception in
dragging almost all of humanity with him into the
eternal torment, the eternal death, of the lake of
fire. At the final judgment, Jesus will say to the
damned: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting
fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ... And
these shall go away into everlasting punishment"
(Matthew 25:41,46); "Where their worm dieth not, and
the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44); "Tormented
with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their
torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have
no rest day nor night" (Revelation 14:10-11); "In the
lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which
is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

Chuck said:
... it is by grace ALONE that we are saved, through
faith that is a gift of God, but that doesn't
entail we are not free to accept or reject the
gift.

That's right, for while "few are chosen" to be given
the gift of saving faith, even fewer will be faithful
to the end. In the end, "They that are with him
[Jesus] are called, and chosen, and faithful"
(Revelation 17:14). "For we are made partakers of
Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence
stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:14). "Christ as a
son over his own house, whose house are we, if we
hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the
hope firm unto the end" (Hebrews 3:6). "If ye
continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be
not moved away from the hope of the gospel"
(Colossians 1:23). "He that shall endure unto the
end, the same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13).
Even those who have gladly received the gift of
saving faith can subsequently reject it by
committing apostasy in order to escape suffering
for their faith: "If we suffer, we shall also reign
with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us"
(2 Timothy 2:12). "For it is impossible for those
who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the
heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy
Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the
powers of the world to come, if they shall fall
away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing
they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame. For the earth which
drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and
bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is
dressed, receiveth blessing from God. But that which
beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh
unto cursing, whose end is to be burned" (Hebrews
6:4-8).
Or, those who have gladly received the gift of
saving faith can subsequently reject it because of
its moral teachings, so that they can feel justified
in continuing in their favorite lusts without
repentance: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in
the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their
conscience seared with a hot iron" (1 Timothy 4:1-2).
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of
season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all
longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come
when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after
their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn
away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned
unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:2-4).
One of these fables is that God's grace covers
unrepentant sin, so that those who are "saved" won't
be damned no matter what they do. This is clearly
wrong, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have
received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth
no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful
looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which
shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses'
law died without mercy under two or three witnesses.
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son
of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and
hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
(Hebrews 10:26-29); "Turning the grace of our God
into lasciviousness" (Jude 1:4). "I tell you, Nay,
but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish"
(Luke 13:3).
.
User: "Chuck Stamford"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 20 Jan 2008 01:33:04 AM
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9dfd50a1-d010-4847-879a-62c9ead3331e@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Stamford said on Jan 18, 9:42 pm:
Faith isn't the sort of thing God can "inject"
into someone while they're sleeping or otherwise
unconscious.


God could give people His gift of saving faith in
Jesus even while they were sleeping, by having Jesus
Himself appear to them in a dream and tell them of
His death on the cross for their sins and His rising
from the dead on the third day, or by causing them to
have a dream whereby someone was preaching this
Gospel to them.

Then if God is perfectly good and "desires that none perish", why doesn't He
do this; if, as you claim, God could do it and all would believe?
<snip rest>
Chuck
.
User: "Read The Bible"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 20 Jan 2008 06:30:16 AM

Chuck Stamford said on Jan 19, 11:33 pm:
Then if God is perfectly good and "desires that
none perish", why doesn't He do this; if, as you
claim, God could do it and all would believe?

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as
some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to
us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that
all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). Here
the "us" is not all of humanity, but all of the
elect, "the vessels of mercy, which he had afore
prepared unto glory, Even us" (Romans 9:23-24);
"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God"
(1 Thessalonians 1:4). God is giving enough time for
all of the elect to come to repentance; "Therefore I
endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they
may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ
Jesus" (2 Timothy 2:10); "according to the faith of
God's elect" (Titus 1:1).
The "elect" means those "chosen" by God to be given
saving faith: "God hath from the beginning chosen
you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13); "For
by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works,
lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). This
means that God doesn't choose to give people saving
faith because of anything that they've done, or
will do; rather, He chooses people "from the
beginning", before they have done anything at all:
"For the children being not yet born, neither having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works, but
of him that calleth, it was said unto her [Rebecca],
The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Romans
9:11-13).
So God "loves" and "hates" people not based on their
works, but solely based on His sovereign election.
Everyone is in the same boat regarding their works,
"For all have sinned" (Romans 3:23). Those God loves
are no better than those He hates, "whose damnation
is just. What then? are we better than they? No, in
no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and
Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is
written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There
is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none
that doeth good, no, not one" (Romans 3:8-12).
While we're all vile sinners, God sovereignly chooses
who He is going to save and who He is going to make
sure never gets saved: "What shall we say then? Is
there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he
saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth
mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for
this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might
shew my power in thee, and that my name might be
declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he
mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he
hardeneth" (Romans 9:14-18).
But why? Why not save everyone as He is certainly
able to? Paul gives the answer: "What if God, willing
to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: And that he might make known
the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us"
(Romans 9:22-24). This means that God doesn't save
everybody because He wants an opportunity to show
His wrath. If He saved everybody, all He would make
known would be His mercy.
But someone could ask, "Okay, then why doesn't He
just show His wrath for a few minutes and then show
mercy to everybody forever?"
Because He wants to show His wrath forever, just as
He wants to show His mercy forever: "And these shall
go away into everlasting punishment: but the
righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46). The
saved and the damned will exist side by side forever,
so that even on the new earth the saved can go and
look at the damned suffering their eternal torment
in the lake of fire: "For as the new heavens and the
new earth, which I will make, shall remain before
me, saith the LORD [YHWH], so shall your seed and
your name remain ... And they shall go forth, and
look upon the carcases of the men that have
transgressed against me: for their worm shall not
die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah
66:22,24); "cast into hell fire: Where their worm
dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark
9:47-48); "shall have their part in the lake which
burneth with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:8);
"tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke
of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and
they have no rest day nor night" (Revelation
14:10-11).
Someone could ask, "Why? Why? Why? That is vile!".
Everyone will agree that it's vile; the damned in
their torment "shall be an abhorring unto all flesh"
(Isaiah 66:24).
Someone could say, "No, I meant that it's vile that
God would let them be tormented forever. He is vile,
He is evil, for doing that".
No, He isn't. He is showing His righteous wrath
against sin.
"Why? Why not just show it for a couple of minutes
and let it go at that?"
He wants to show it forever.
"Why? Why is that necessary? What's the point?"
One point will be that for His mercy to be known
forever for what it is, His wrath has to exist
forever as a continual foil, a continual contrast.
Just as "up" cannot be known for what it is without
"down", so God's mercy cannot be known for what it
is without His wrath. For mercy means not getting
what you deserve; if you don't know what you
deserve from God (the lake of fire), then how can
you know His mercy?
"Pictures! A movie! Place the damned in the lake of
fire and take a picture, a movie of them being
tortured for 30 seconds and screaming and crying,
and then, poof!, let them out. Then make copies of
the movie and make everyone watch it on their Ipods
every morning before their prayers. Voila, they
are reminded every day of what they didn't suffer
because of God's mercy."
That wouldn't be good enough.
"Why not?"
30 seconds isn't eternal wrath.
"Make a loop with the movie, so that the 30 seconds
plays over and over without any breaks. Project
it onto walls and billboards everywhere, so that
wherever someone looks they see the continual
fire and the screaming; and when they see it they
can cross themselves and mumble, 'there but for the
mercy of God go I'."
It's still not eternal wrath; it's just an eternal
movie of 30 seconds of wrath.
"Why does it have to be eternal, for God's sake?"
Because God's mercy is eternal.
"So what? He can show His mercy forever and forget
about His wrath."
He could, but He is not willing to. He is willing to
show His wrath.
"At the expense of people? That is vile."
To vilify God for His eternal wrath against people is
to make people more important than God.
"How? I don't think people are more important than
God, but He would still be vile to torture them
forever. Just as I don't think dogs are more
important than people, but people would still be vile
to torture dogs forever."
That's equating people to God.
"How?"
It's saying that people can judge God just as they
judge other people.
"Evil is evil. I don't care who does it, even God."
That's the whole point: to vilify God for His eternal
wrath against people is to make people more important
than God, to make people able to say "I don't care"
about the difference between people and God.
"Morality has to apply to both of them."
Once again, that's equating people with God; it's
saying that the morality decided on by people can
be applied to God.
"God wants us to torture dogs forever? Nope. It's
His morality that's against torture. I'm just
applying His own morality against Him."
Once again, that makes you more important than God;
you "know better" than God what is moral for Him to
do.
"No, HE knows He shouldn't torture people. That's
why He's evil to do it; He's going against His
own morality."
Once again, that makes you more important than God;
you think that you can not only decide what His own
morality is, but then be judge and jury and condemn
Him.
"Oh, okay, so we should go out and torture dogs."
You're back to equating what people do to dogs, to
what God does to people; you're back to equating
people to God.
"Then His morality is different than ours? He can
do things that we can't do?"
Of course. He is the Almighty, Infinite, Creator
God. He can do whatever He pleases with His
Creation, whenever He pleases, however He pleases.
"But people can't."
Of course not. People are puny, infinitesimal
creatures wholly dependent on God for their very
continued existence.
"Should He really take advantage of us, then? I
mean, shouldn't He give us some slack, instead of
torturing us forever?"
By saying "should", you are once again sitting in
judgment on God, determining what is moral for Him
to do.
"We can't use common sense?"
Not in relation to God, for He is in no way
"common"; and our human "sense" is woefully lacking
in being able to determine the morality of the
infinite, Creator God's actions in relation to His
Creation.
"So we have to just throw up our hands? Say, whatever
you want, O Big God?"
Exactly. We have to root out every last vestige of
our human pride and totally humble ourselves before
God: "I uttered that I understood not; things too
wonderful for me, which I knew not ... Wherefore I
abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes"
(Job 42:3,6).
"Oh, I get it. We have to hate ourselves, hate
people, in order to properly love God. That's sick."
It isn't, if we understand "hate" as "love less":
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and
mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and
sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my
disciple" (Luke 14:26); "He that loveth father or
mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that
loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of
me" (Matthew 10:37). So we can still love ourselves,
still love people; but we must love God even more.
We can never hate God because of anything that He
does to us or to other people.
"We just have to take it, huh?"
Yes.
"That makes me want to scream."
That's the pride in you. It's been cornered, and it's
going crazy.
"I still want to scream."
Because you are still holding onto your pride.
"If I let it go, then I've got nothing."
Exactly. The only way to be saved is to get yourself
to the point where you have nothing: "whosoever he be
of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot
be my disciple" (Luke 14:33); "He that loveth his
life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in
this world shall keep it unto life eternal" (John
12:25).
"Does that mean we have to commit suicide?"
No. It means we have to get to the point where we
don't even hold onto our own life anymore; we don't
even love our own life more than God, but love Him
above everything.
"Wow. I'm not there yet."
I'm not sure any of us are, except maybe those who
have sacrificed their lives unto death in their
loving service to God.
"Why does God demand everything? I mean, why not just
set us all up in ice cream parlors and let us have
fun forever? Surely He's got the power to do that."
He wants something better for us.
"What's better than fun forever."
Becoming more like God forever.
"Doesn't God have fun forever?"
The word "fun" is too light; it can in no way
encompass God's pleasure.
"Ah, so we get pleasure?"
Of course: "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in
thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand
there are pleasures for evermore" (Psalms 16:11).
"Okay, I'll take one of those."
It's not like a thing that can be "taken"; it's
pleasures that derive only from continuing "in thy
presence", from continuing in "the path of life".
"How do I do that?"
By getting as close to God as people can get, for
He Himself is the path of life: "I am the way, the
truth, and the life" (John 14:6); He Himself is our
reward: "I am ... thy exceeding great reward"
(Genesis 15:1).
"I don't get an ice cream parlor?"
You could, but it would only be one where you were
with Him, in Him, forever.
"How do I get 'with Him, in Him'?"
The only way is to love Him more than anything
else, even yourself.
"Why can't I get an ice cream parlor by myself, for
just me and my friends?"
God doesn't want you to forget Him.
"Why not? Why does He care?"
He cares about you.
"Okay, then He should give me whatever I want."
Do you give your child whatever he wants?
"If it won't hurt him."
It's the same way with God. He knows that if we get
things without Him, it hurts us, because we start to
get attached to the things instead of to Him, our
very source of continued existence. We start to cut
ourselves off from true "life" and replace it with
an ersatz "fun" that never quite satisfies, that
always leaves us cold and empty in the end.
"Ice cream leaves me cold and full in the end!"
Only for a little time; then you get hungry again.
And I dare say it's possible to get sick of ice cream
if one eats enough of it.
"I can't get sick of 'too much God'?"
No, no. If you have "too much" of Him for you to
contain, He'll flow out of you like a fountain to
bless others: "out of his belly shall flow rivers of
living water. But this spake he of the Spirit" (John
7:38-39).
.
User: "Chuck Stamford"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 20 Jan 2008 05:26:00 PM
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dd052b7c-84fc-4cd9-9992-59e249c44a03@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Stamford said on Jan 19, 11:33 pm:
Then if God is perfectly good and "desires that
none perish", why doesn't He do this; if, as you
claim, God could do it and all would believe?


"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as
some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to
us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that
all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). Here
the "us" is not all of humanity, but all of the
elect, "the vessels of mercy, which he had afore
prepared unto glory, Even us" (Romans 9:23-24);
"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God"
(1 Thessalonians 1:4). God is giving enough time for
all of the elect to come to repentance; "Therefore I
endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they
may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ
Jesus" (2 Timothy 2:10); "according to the faith of
God's elect" (Titus 1:1).

The "elect" means those "chosen" by God to be given
saving faith:

You're missing the problem.
If you say that the word of God tells us that God ALONE is the active agent
in our salvation (not forgiveness of sins; "salvation"), then it is God
ALONE who is active in those who are not saved being lost. The principle of
inclusion (*) in the state of affairs consisting in God ALONE being
causitive in salvation must make it the case that God ALONE is causitive in
damnation.
Do you understand that? I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but you
need to understand that before we go onto any biblical truths that are more
complex or/and subtle.
Chuck
(*) The principle of inclusion in dealing with states of affairs is a
widely accepted and firmly established principle of logic that is fully and
completely analogous to the principle of entailment in propositions. The
best way to understand it is by looking at an example of it. So...
Take a state of affairs (almost any will do), for example, the state of
affairs consisting in me being (let's say) six feet tall (and for
convenience, let's name this state of affairs "S1"). This state of affairs
"includes" several other states of affairs in the sense that if S1 actually
obtains, so do several other states of affairs S2, S3, S4....Sn, and they do
so in every possible world in which S1 actually obtains. Some examples of
what the set of states of affairs (S2...Sn) would "include" would be "me
existing", "me having a three dimensional shape", "there being something
that exists that exemplifies S1", "the existence of a three dimensional
space in the world in which I exist", etc.
Or say we make our "S1" here a "red ball". Then our set (S2...Sn) would
includes states of affairs like "there is at least one ball that exists in
the world in which S1 actually obtains", "there is at least one colored ball
in the world in which S1 actually obtains", etc.
We cannot plausibly deny that this principle of "inclusion" of several
states of affairs within a single, specified/expressed state of affairs is
used almost automatically in virtually every human cognitive activity.
There is virutally nothing one can say or conceptualize that does not
include several other implicit truths. It only remains to discover what
those other implicit truths are before we can use them with equal validity
as those we see expressed or have conceptualized, and this holds true for
anything you say, or I say, or God says in His word, the Bible.
.
User: "Chuck Stamford"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 20 Jan 2008 06:11:50 PM
"Chuck Stamford" <shell__stamford@cox.net> wrote in message
news:lMQkj.1042$ov5.46@newsfe15.phx...


"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dd052b7c-84fc-4cd9-9992-59e249c44a03@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Stamford said on Jan 19, 11:33 pm:
Then if God is perfectly good and "desires that
none perish", why doesn't He do this; if, as you
claim, God could do it and all would believe?


"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as
some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to
us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that
all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). Here
the "us" is not all of humanity, but all of the
elect, "the vessels of mercy, which he had afore
prepared unto glory, Even us" (Romans 9:23-24);
"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God"
(1 Thessalonians 1:4). God is giving enough time for
all of the elect to come to repentance; "Therefore I
endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they
may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ
Jesus" (2 Timothy 2:10); "according to the faith of
God's elect" (Titus 1:1).

The "elect" means those "chosen" by God to be given
saving faith:


You're missing the problem.

If you say that the word of God tells us that God ALONE is the active
agent in our salvation (not forgiveness of sins; "salvation"), then it is
God ALONE who is active in those who are not saved being lost. The
principle of inclusion (*) in the state of affairs consisting in God ALONE
being causitive in salvation must make it the case that God ALONE is
causitive in damnation.

Do you understand that? I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but
you need to understand that before we go onto any biblical truths that are
more complex or/and subtle.

Chuck

(*) The principle of inclusion in dealing with states of affairs is a
widely accepted and firmly established principle of logic that is fully
and completely analogous to the principle of entailment in propositions.
The best way to understand it is by looking at an example of it. So...

Take a state of affairs (almost any will do), for example, the state of
affairs consisting in me being (let's say) six feet tall (and for
convenience, let's name this state of affairs "S1"). This state of
affairs "includes" several other states of affairs in the sense that if S1
actually obtains, so do several other states of affairs S2, S3, S4....Sn,
and they do so in every possible world in which S1 actually obtains. Some
examples of what the set of states of affairs (S2...Sn) would "include"
would be "me existing", "me having a three dimensional shape", "there
being something that exists that exemplifies S1", "the existence of a
three dimensional space in the world in which I exist", etc.

A much needed correction here: a spatial realm of three dimensions is not
necessary for "height" to actually obtain, and therefore is irrelevant to
the point of the example. Two will do nicely. Therefore, the above should
have read, "the existence of a two dimensional space in the world in which I
exist".


Or say we make our "S1" here a "red ball". Then our set (S2...Sn) would
includes states of affairs like "there is at least one ball that exists
in the world in which S1 actually obtains", "there is at least one colored
ball in the world in which S1 actually obtains", etc.

We cannot plausibly deny that this principle of "inclusion" of several
states of affairs within a single, specified/expressed state of affairs is
used almost automatically in virtually every human cognitive activity.
There is virutally nothing one can say or conceptualize that does not
include several other implicit truths. It only remains to discover what
those other implicit truths are before we can use them with equal validity
as those we see expressed or have conceptualized, and this holds true for
anything you say, or I say, or God says in His word, the Bible.

.

User: "Read The Bible"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 21 Jan 2008 03:01:27 AM

Chuck Stamford said on Jan 20, 3:26 pm:
If you say that the word of God tells us that God
ALONE is the active agent in our salvation ...

The Word of God tells us that God alone is the active
agent who initiates the possibility of salvation:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath
sent me draw him" (John 6:44); "no man can come unto
me, except it were given unto him of my Father"
(John 6:65); "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of
God" (Ephesians 2:8); "as many as were ordained to
eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).
It is only by God's foreordination, His
predestination, that anyone is given by Him the gift
of saving faith: "God hath from the beginning chosen
you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13);
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the
foundation of the world ... Having predestinated us
.... being predestinated according to the purpose of
him who worketh all things after the counsel of his
own will" (Ephesians 1:4-5,11).
Unbelievers can't just wake up one day and decide on
their own: "I think I will become a believer", or
"I think I'll start working real hard to become a
believer". No, only God can decide whether or not He
will offer them, by His mercy, the ability to become
believers: "So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth
mercy" (Romans 9:16); "them that believe on his name"
are "born, not of ... the will of the flesh, nor of
the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
But even though God alone is the active agent who
initiates the possibility of salvation, God is not
the only active agent in the ultimate attainment of
salvation, for believers must "work out your own
salvation" (Philippians 2:12), by performing good
works of faith, for "by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only" (James 2:24); "Not every one
that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my
-Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21);
"Wherefore we labour, that ... we may be accepted of
him" (2 Corinthians 5:9).
And in order to remain saved, believers must hold
fast to their faith unto the end and not throw it
away to escape suffering for it: "If we suffer, we
shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also
will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12).
And believers must not throw away their faith in
order to continue in unrepentant sin: "the Spirit
speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some
shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in
hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron" (1 Timothy 4:1-2); "For the time will come when
they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their
own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears; And they shall turn away their
ears from the truth" (2 Timothy 4:3-4); "if we sin
wilfully after that we have received the knowledge
of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for
sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment
and fiery indignation, which shall devour the
adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).
So God giving people the gift of saving faith in no
way turns them into robots; they have to choose by
their own free will to cooperate with God and get up
off their duffs and do works of faith, or they will
hear those terrible words: "Thou wicked and slothful
servant ... cast ye the unprofitable servant into
outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing
of teeth" (Matthew 25:26,30). "They profess that
they know God; but in works they deny him, being
abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good
work reprobate" (Titus 1:16).
And believers have to choose by their own free will
to cooperate with God and hold onto their faith unto
the end: "he that shall endure unto the end, the
same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13); "For we are
made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning
of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews
3:14); "Christ as a son over his own house; whose
house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and
the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end"
(Hebrews 3:6); "continue in the faith grounded and
settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the
gospel" (Colossians 1:23).

Chuck Stamford said:
... our salvation (not forgiveness of sins;
"salvation")

-Forgiveness of sins is an integral part of
salvation: "salvation unto his people by the
remission of their sins" (Luke 1:77); "the gospel
.... By which also ye are saved ... how that Christ
died for our sins" (1 Corinthians 15:1-3); "And so
all Israel shall be saved ... when I shall take
away their sins" (Romans 11:26-27); "a Saviour, for
to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of
sins" (Acts 5:31); "he shall save his people from
their sins" (Matthew 1:21); "Even when we were dead
in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
(by grace ye are saved)" (Ephesians 2:5); "we have
redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of
sins" (Ephesians 1:7).

Chuck Stamford said:
... then [you're saying that] it is God ALONE who
is active in those who are not saved being lost.

Yes, insofar as He alone can damn people, but not
insofar as damned people alone are responsible for
their sins for which they are damned, for "Let no
man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for
God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he
any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn
away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust
hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when
it is finished, bringeth forth death" (James
1:13-15). "There is nothing from without a man, that
entering into him can defile him: but the things
which come out of him, those are they that defile the
man ... For from within, out of the heart of men,
proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications,
murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit,
lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride,
foolishness: All these evil things come from within,
and defile the man" (Mark 7:15,21-23).
While God never makes people commit any sin, and
never even tempts them to do so by their own free
will, He can harden their hearts so that they will
continue in their sin: "whom he will he hardeneth"
(Romans 9:18). He can even actively cause the
deceiving of those who have ultimately rejected His
gift of faith, in order to assure their damnation:
"because they received not the love of the truth,
that they might be saved. And for this cause God
shall send them strong delusion, that they should
believe a lie: That they all might be damned who
believed not the truth, but had pleasure in
unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).
"For it is impossible for those who were once
enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have
tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the
world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them
again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to
themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an
open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain
that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs
meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth
blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and
briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose
end is to be burned" (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Chuck Stamford said:
The principle of inclusion (*) in the state of
affairs consisting in God ALONE being causitive in
salvation must make it the case that God ALONE is
causitive in damnation.

While God alone is the cause of salvation and
damnation insofar as He alone can make salvation
possible for people and He alone can damn people,
God alone is not the cause of salvation and
damnation insofar as those for whom He makes
salvation possible must choose by their own free
will to cooperate with Him unto the end, and those
He damns are not damned because of anything that He
made them do, but because of what they chose to do
by their own free will.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)

Dave said on Jan 20, 3:39 pm:
Jesus is Lord RIGHT NOW

Yes, "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus" (Romans
10:9). But He has not yet physically descended from
heaven to the Mount of Olives to begin His millennial
reign on the earth: "this same Jesus, which is taken
up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner
as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned
they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet"
(Acts 1:11-12); "Then shall the LORD go forth ... And
his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of
Olives ... And the LORD shall be king over all the
earth" (Zechariah 14:3-4,9); "when the Son of man
shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall
sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of
Israel" (Matthew 19:28); "That ye may eat and drink
at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Luke 22:30).
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had
received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their
hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a
thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not
again until the thousand years were finished. This
is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he
that hath part in the first resurrection: on such
the second death hath no power, but they shall be
priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with
him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4-6).
"... we shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10);
"he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the
end, to him will I give power over the nations: And
he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels
of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as
I received of my Father. And I will give him the
morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what
the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation
2:26-29).
"And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke
strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their
swords into plowshares, and their spears into
pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword
against nation, neither shall they learn war any
more. But they shall sit every man under his vine
and under his fig tree; and none shall make them
afraid" (Micah 4:3-4).
"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).

Dave said:
... [someone] claimed that the Jews will be
performing animal sacrifices for sins and that this
will be a valid means to their salvation.

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross has forever replaced
all animal sacrifices for sin: "there is no more
offering for sin" (Hebrews 10:18); "he had offered
one sacrifice for sins for ever ... For by one
offering he hath perfected for ever them that are
sanctified" (Hebrews 10:12,14). So the animal
sacrifices for sin envisioned in Ezekiel 40-46 will
never be fulfilled; that vision was conditional on
Israel's acceptance of it (Ezekiel 43:11) before
Jesus' sacrifice took place.
Jesus' sacrifice for our sins is the only way to
salvation: "the gospel ... By which also ye are
saved ... how that Christ died for our sins"
(1 Corinthians 15:1-3); "Neither is there salvation
in any other: for there is none other name under
heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
(Acts 4:12); "I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John
14:6).

Dave said:
... [someone claimed that] there is another method
AND that Christ Himself will approve of Jews
spitting in His face with their animal sacrifices

Christ would in no way approve of people who did
that, but that is different than saying that the
sacrifices themselves would be evil, for if they are
performed exactly according to the old Mosaic law,
in God's eyes they would still be holy in themselves,
for even today "the law is holy, and the commandment
holy, and just, and good" (Romans 7:12). This will
apply to the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in
Jerusalem as well: it will be holy in itself,
regardless of any unholiness of those who built it.
This is not the same as saying that the old Mosaic
law is still in effect in relation to Israel,
because it isn't; it was completely replaced by the
new covenant of Christ: "I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of
Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made
with their fathers in the day that I took them by
the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt ...
I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember
their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:31-32,34); "For this
is my blood of the new testament [new covenant],
which is shed for many for the remission of sins"
(Matthew 26:28).
Nonetheless, the old Mosaic law remains valid by
itself; this is why it is still in heaven: "And the
temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was
seen in his temple the ark of his testament"
(Revelation 11:19). This is the ark of the old
testament (old covenant), which, even though it
remains holy in God's sight, is no longer in any
effect on the earth, and will never be again, not
even during the millennium: "they shall say no more,
The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it
come to mind: neither shall they remember it;
neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be
done any more. At that time they shall call Jerusalem
the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be
gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to
Jerusalem" (Jeremiah 3:16-17).
During the coming tribulation, while Christ will not
approve of the unbelieving Jews continuing to reject
Him and His sacrifice in their building of the temple
and performing of animal sacrifices for sin, this is
not the same as saying that they must all ultimately
be damned, for all of them who survive until the
second coming will be saved at that time: "And so
all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There
shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn
away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant
unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As
concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your
sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved
for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of
God are without repentance" (Romans 11:26-29).
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon
the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace
and of supplications: and they shall look upon me
whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for
him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be
in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness
for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a
great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of
Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land
shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the
house of David apart, and their wives apart; the
family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives
apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and
their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and
their wives apart; All the families that remain,
every family apart, and their wives apart"
(Zechariah 12:10-14).
Jesus will have mercy on them just as He has had
mercy on us: "For as ye in times past have not
believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through
their unbelief: Even so have these also now not
believed, that through your mercy they also may
obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in
unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Romans
11:30-32).
.
User: "Chuck Stamford"

Title: Re: If God wanted us to believe He would snap his finger. 22 Jan 2008 02:06:25 AM
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b362c910-6278-4558-8849-528ee141b9e2@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

Chuck Stamford said on Jan 20, 3:26 pm:
If you say that the word of God tells us that God
ALONE is the active agent in our salvation ...


The Word of God tells us that God alone is the active
agent who initiates the possibility of salvation:

No, it doesn't. There is no passage in the Bible that says, "God alone is
the active agent in our salvation". And I'm snipping all the passages you
take TO be saying it that don't actually say it, because it's not God's word
saying it, it's you.
So you ARE saying that God ALONE is the causitive agent in our salvation;
that nothing else is needed but the action of God.
snip

... our salvation (not forgiveness of sins;
"salvation")

Look, if you want to preach, start a church. This is a NEWSGROUP, and here
we argue and discuss...which means you've got to let me finish my thought,
and once I do, then you're supposed to respond to IT, not to something it
reminds you of, or as a launching pad for a sermon.
Now, the issue is if God alone is active in salvation, then God alone is
active in damnation.
.