There is no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, and it drives
them nuts.

Susan

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 18:26:19 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:51:48 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:

"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:4222E8A2.E3146FBB@netvigator.com...

The primitives that made the story up made it for people of their own
simple
logic, so they ignored the first twenty years of the man's life.

"The son of a god lives for twenty years with nothing, but nothing,
recorded
about his most important and formative years".

With this kind of lunacy no wonder the ranks of atheism grow

Documents ranging from 50AD to 100AD spanning different communities dictate
the existence of Jesus of Nazareth . The religious-scholastic world hardly
disputes that through multiple attestation, he was a real person.

No they don't. But then you know that, so why keep repeating it?

The *O*N*L*Y* items from that era two paragraphs in Josephus. The
major one has obviously been tampered with afterwards as it uses
Christian language , terminology etc finishing up with "to this day",
at a time when Christians were very rare and it was still a Jewish
breakaway cult. The paragraph is out of context with the surrounding
material.

The other minor reference is to James "the brother of Jesus" but this
is not the James of the Gospels because it describes how he was
killed, and this is at odds with church history. It is widely
considered that this is an insertion as well.

The fact of the tampering makes it unreliable. The fact of the forgery
in the major part makes the minor one untrustworthy.

It says what they want to hear, therefore it must be true. You are
pointing out reasons why it should not be accepted, therefore you must
be evil. It all makes perfect sense, if one judges evidence based on
what one has decided to believe beforehand.

"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:4223d34a$0$88034$16895aa@news.airnews.net...

RS wrote:

If you xians want to become like Jesus so much, why do none of you
actually bother to follow his commands? Pray strictly in private in
your closets, not publically.

Why do none of us? Are you presuming every single one of us do this? I
was praying on this newsgroup earlier... I apologized for it because I
erred in
my own teachings and was being hypocritical. I removed that hypocricy
then.

Sell all you have an give to the poor.

On the contrary, this isn't so much a teaching of Christ. Let's look at
the scripture.

Luke 14:36
So likewise, Whoseoever he be of you that foresaketh not all he hath,
he cannot be my disciple.

There is no Luke 14:36. I've looked in four different versions. Not
there. I presume, of course, you meant Luke 14:33

"Who does not renounce all his possessions cannot be my disciple." We
must
recognize the context of this passage.

Christ was speaking to the crowds
who were travelling with him, telling these crowds what they needed to do
to
continue following him. This is referring to the prediction of Christ as
those who will sit on the 12 thrones in heaven. Continue it further,
theologically, to Matthew 19, we get "And everyone who has left houses or
brothers or sisters or fathers or mother or children or fields for the
sake of our Heavenly Father will recieve a hundred times more in the life
to come."

Followers who adhered to this all too literally are known as Counter cult
groups. In all reality, it refers to the willingness to be martyred for
Christ. Those who refuse to leave these things behind when Christ calls
them to aren't true disciples of Christ. Those who kling to material
things
can't be followers of Christ. Those who rely on the generosity of others
and are generous to others, however, can be true followers of Christ. I
am
looking about my room right now. My room serves as a workstation, office,
bedroom, and living space all in one. I look at my possessions and
realize
them to be one thing. All of my "possessions" (of the vast majority of
them) aren't my own. Through the generosity of family and friends and in
exchange for my hard work, I have been given them and the ability to
purchase them. I do not seek after riches or wealth. I do not store
treasures on earth. If someone were to break into my studio and take
everything I own, I would still be wealthy for my treasures aren't these
physical things that I use, but the values of my faith.

Luke 12:33
Sell all you hath and give alms; provide
yourselves with bags that wax not old, a treasure
in heaven that fails not, where no thief approacheth,
nor moth corrupt.

I would, therefore, not sell the gifts that have been given me by the
generosity of others. Rather, I would make use of them as I was meant to,
so that I can educate myself further and be able to provide for a family
and to help those in need, rather than concerning myself and hoarding
treasures for myself.

No religous oaths, not on money not in a court on
a bible, not being sworn in as president.

I have never taken an oath on money, nor in a court, nor been sworn in as
president... Though there is nothing wrong with making a promise before
God, such as one does when he is baptized or confirmed.

No voting for a president that lied us into a war.

It was indeed a sad election. I didn't apperciate any of the candidates,
but voted for Bush even though my vote meant for nothing (New York State
went overwhelmingly to Kerry).

No divorces.

I haven't divorced nor do I believe in divorce. There are Christians who
have, but the Church still recognizes the marriages as valid (that is why
a married-in-the-Church and divorced-by-the-state couple can't remarry in
the Church unless the first marriage is enulled).

Basically, we don't have any christians in America, do we?
Why then, do you faux xians prattle and spew at us while
refusing to do god's will as expressed without ambiguity
by Jesus Christ?

That is a claim that you've no right to make. Christ is the sole author
of determination, and the Father in heaven the sole source of authority
and
judgment. I believe there to be good Christians in America. I consider
myself to be strong in faith, myself. That doesn't make me a better
person
than you. On the contrary, you could be a nicer person to me, and one who
is more aware of the feelings of those around you. I tend to be quite
oblivious sometimes to those around me. I know, however, that God's will
for me isn't to take a vow of poverty and celibacy. I know that if I
concern my life with the hoarding of material riches on earth, that I will
be consumed by them and lose heaven.

Why preach at us when YOU have a lot of work to do
to become a real Christian yourself?

Have I? A real Christian is one who puts his faith and heart in Christ.
Living a lonely homeless life doesn't make one a real Christian. Knowing
that what material possessions you have aren't really yours, but blessings
from the Father, and understanding that they mean nothing in the end is
where the heart of Christianity is inspired.

When you have the guts to sell all you have like Christ
repeately demanded, THEN come back here and bloviate at us.
Not until then. You don't really believe this bible, no more
than me, an Atheist.

That judgment is one that you make out of misinterpretation of scripture.
Like right now. Sitting near my left hand is a cell phone. It was given
to
me as a gift. Am I then to sell it and give the money to the poor? No,
for
the phone isn't mine. This computer I am typing on was purchased for me
by
my parents for use at university. Am I to sell it and give money to the
poor? No, because it isn't mine to sell. The television, the lamp, the
speakers, the printer, the table, the chair, the clothing, the sheets,
etc. etc. are gifts to me from others, or purchased by myself from monies
I
secured in exchange for labor. I recognize, however, that none of these
possessions are my own and I recognize the day when these same possessions
will be taken from me and given to others (my wife and children) when
nothing I have will be my own, but theirs.

Not one of you bleating, mouth flapping, insincere, preaching
windbags does. Not one. I am tired of being preached at by liars who
themselves will not follow their own advice and follow the bible
and the teachings of Christ.

I am sorry that you are tired of this, but it is a fact of this world.
Why,
though, do you judge all of us in the same group? "Not one of you". You
call us insincere preachers. Have I preached to you? As far as I am
aware,
talking about my beliefs doesn't qualify as preaching to you. I recognize
hypocracy. I am quick to correct it. I do take my advice, however, and I
wouldn't ask anyone to give up everything that has been given to them for
the sake of religion, for what possessions we do have, unless hoarded for
the sole purpose of having them, aren't are own.

You are an atheist. I respect that. I do not agree with it, but in the
end
it is your decision to make just as it is mine to be a theist. I do sin,
I
recognize that. I recognize that Christ has expected certian things of
his original disciples and though I would like to be able to emulate that,
I
can't. Though I have the ability to use possessions around me, however, I
recognize that they aren't mine to keep. I am looking at my table top
right
now and recognize this: The desk isn't my own. It is rent-covered by a
loan
which my family is paying for. The computer, printer, and speakers aren't
my own, but purchased by my family. The cell phone is a gift from a
friend,
the cross, prayer book, and bible aren't my own, but gifts. The music
player and CD are gifts as well. When I look around my room, I see many
things, most of them I have to give back. I also realize one thing. If
someone broke into my room and took everything, I would only loose about
400 dollars of things I consider purchased with my own money (which isn't
my
own, exactly, since it was exchanged for labor). Think of St. Francis of
Assisi. He renounced all of his worldly possessions, giving them back to
those who gave them to him (his father). Still, he labored for food and
clothing and supplies to build the roof over his head. Christ and his
apostles, as well, had money that was their own from labor (they had a
money
bag). With that, they purchased clothing and food.

Think of Lazarus, who was a true follower of Christ. His sister was as
well, who was well-to-do. The faith comes from teh recogniztion that the
possessions we can make use of aren't ours to claim, and the moment we
make claim to them, the moment we accept them and store them as treasures
on
earth. That doesn't mean that I would hand my computer to you if you
walked
into my room and demanded it. It isn't mine to give away, but he who paid
for it.

-RS