Religions > Bible > If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Matt. " |
| Date: |
16 Jun 2007 12:12:56 PM |
| Object: |
If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
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| User: "Jack Baun" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 09:25:05 PM |
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"Matt." <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote in message
news:gg5873h5k1os1op37lho660kq7bl9lhc0j@4ax.com...
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
Hi Mat , Do the part you understand, that will be enough, When you don't
know the truth you wont be held accountable for it . This verse is letting
you know not to put anything ahead of God in your life that's all , the rich
guy loved his posessions more.
I'm trying to understand the trinity but dont believe it is keeping me from
being a Christian and righjt now I think you are right.
Jack
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 10:50:31 PM |
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Jack Baun wrote:
"Matt." <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote in message
news:gg5873h5k1os1op37lho660kq7bl9lhc0j@4ax.com...
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
Hi Mat , Do the part you understand, that will be enough, When you don't
know the truth you wont be held accountable for it . This verse is letting
you know not to put anything ahead of God in your life that's all , the rich
guy loved his posessions more.
I'm trying to understand the trinity
Don't bother with the trinity --- even those who preach it admit is not
comprehensible...
.... and even those who preach it admit it is not in the Bible!
but dont believe it is keeping me from
being a Christian and righjt now I think you are right.
Jack
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
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| User: "Matt. " |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 12:49:39 AM |
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:25:05 -0400, "Jack Baun" <bluejay@gwis.com>
wrote:
"Matt." <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote in message
news:gg5873h5k1os1op37lho660kq7bl9lhc0j@4ax.com...
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
Hi Mat , Do the part you understand, that will be enough, When you don't
know the truth you wont be held accountable for it . This verse is letting
you know not to put anything ahead of God in your life that's all , the rich
guy loved his posessions more.
I'm trying to understand the trinity but dont believe it is keeping me from
being a Christian and righjt now I think you are right.
I think you are right. I believed because my parents taught it but
never explained it. Not sure they did.
I do not believe it is part of salvation or Christ himself would of
said so and he did not.
Vera made me doubt it was part of salvation.
Still haven't made up my mind
God Bless
Matt
Jack
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 07:20:22 AM |
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"Matt." <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote in message
news:gg5873h5k1os1op37lho660kq7bl9lhc0j@4ax.com...
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
It is told where in the Bible? What you quoted is not what you claim we are
told..?
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| User: "Sam Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
18 Jun 2007 03:42:48 PM |
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For By thy Doctorines shalt thou be saved, and not by grace.
it is a Gift from G-D to those who know the right Formula
it is this Fornula which G-D hast savest You, to believe in
Eph 8:9.&10
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 06:53:41 PM |
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Just more silly Biblical nonsense!
"Matt." <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote in message
news:gg5873h5k1os1op37lho660kq7bl9lhc0j@4ax.com...
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
.
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| User: "Sam Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
18 Jun 2007 02:40:24 AM |
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Have You not read the scripture?
By thy doctorines are Thou saved, and not by grace.
and again, it is not by the seeing of the Eye, nor the hearing of the
ear
dost thy G-D save You, but by thy doctrines.
and even again.
For by Thy Doctrines are thou saved, and agreeing with the Dogmas, and
Creeds invented by men years after the death of My messiah.
and again G-D is a father
G-D is a son
yea G-D is a holy Ghost.
for it's not one G-d, nor two g-D's
but Thre G-d's Yea The G-D's in one.
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 06:57:20 PM |
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Last time that great scribe Matt. <trdell1234@......gmail.com> chipped
away at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
No evidence is required for alien abduction either.
--
Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 12:26:40 PM |
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Matt. <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
I very much doubt it. Unless God really is the mindless idiot the fundies
make Him out to be.
--
Midwinter
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 12:10:34 PM |
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"Midwinter" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9951BBDF6A5Emidwintermhotmailcou@216.196.109.145...
Matt. <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
It's not as simple as that, but midwinter adds:
I very much doubt it. Unless God really is the mindless idiot the fundies
make Him out to be.
--
Midwinter
If you very much doubt it, that's a nice opinion. If you have God's Word to
back that up, then you'd have something to go on. So where in God's word
that by anything other than believing in the blood of Jesus Christ do we get
to heaven?
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of
the Lord shall be saved.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave
he power to become the sons of God, even to
them that believe on his name:
It can't get any clearer than that. We get to heaven by realizing we are
sinners, repenting from our sins, realizing the wages of sins is death, and
believing that Jesus Christ, being the son of God, bore the punishment for
our sins on the cross. This is the only way to get into heaven.
Rather than offering your opinion, or the opinion of those who clearly do
not preach to you from the Bible, why don't you rely on the what the Bible
says? Quote from the Bible where it says you can get to heaven any other
way. If you cannot, then what you say is not the Word of God. It's that
simple.
Thanks for posting and God Bless!
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 02:17:53 PM |
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"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
If you very much doubt it, that's a nice opinion. If you have God's
Word to back that up, then you'd have something to go on. So where in
God's word that by anything other than believing in the blood of Jesus
Christ do we get to heaven?
I'll answer this unrelated question here and address the point I actually
made in a moment:
God is supposedly all-powerful. If He wanted me to know something, then
I would know it; and I would know the truth of it. I do not have that
confidence in the Bible. Therefore, it is either not the Word of God, or
it is not the Word He intended for me.
Rather than offering your opinion, or the opinion of those who clearly
do not preach to you from the Bible, why don't you rely on the what
the Bible says?
Because the Bible was written by man.
Quote from the Bible where it says you can get to
heaven any other way. If you cannot, then what you say is not the Word
of God. It's that simple.
Now we get to what I actually said. The question was whether you
automatically go to Hell if you do not believe in the Trinity. The
Trinity is a convenient way to render three particular aspects of an
infinite and eternal God. The Trinity, whether viewed from a Trinitarian
or a 'Oneness' or indeed any other perspective, does not equate to
Christ.
--
Midwinter
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 04:01:54 PM |
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Thanks for posting, Midwinter.
"Midwinter" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9952CEBD03CEBmidwintermhotmailcou@216.196.109.145...
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
If you very much doubt it, that's a nice opinion. If you have God's
Word to back that up, then you'd have something to go on. So where in
God's word that by anything other than believing in the blood of Jesus
Christ do we get to heaven?
I'll answer this unrelated question here and address the point I actually
made in a moment:
God is supposedly all-powerful. If He wanted me to know something, then
I would know it; and I would know the truth of it.
That's idolatry. You assume that God should be the way you define Him, and
since he's not, you reject Him. It's not God's will that He make it so
obvious to you that you're pretty much forced into believing in Him. It's
His will that you come to Him by faith.
John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou
hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed
are they that have not seen, and yet have
believed.
You want to see miracles as proof, then try to come to a point of belief by
faith.
Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because
of their unbelief.
I do not have that
confidence in the Bible. Therefore, it is either not the Word of God, or
it is not the Word He intended for me.
There's no therefore. You don't have confidence in the Bible. You are not
trying hard enough to seek him.
Using your logic, even if every single person on the earth believed in God,
one could choose not to and say "therefore it's not the Word of God, or it's
not the Word He intended for me". And they'd be wrong.
Rather than offering your opinion, or the opinion of those who clearly
do not preach to you from the Bible, why don't you rely on the what
the Bible says?
Because the Bible was written by man.
Then what makes you think you know anything of God, since you reject His
Word?
Quote from the Bible where it says you can get to
heaven any other way. If you cannot, then what you say is not the Word
of God. It's that simple.
Now we get to what I actually said. The question was whether you
automatically go to Hell if you do not believe in the Trinity. The
Trinity is a convenient way to render three particular aspects of an
infinite and eternal God. The Trinity, whether viewed from a Trinitarian
or a 'Oneness' or indeed any other perspective, does not equate to
Christ.
So you still didn't answer the question. Where is it you're told then on how
you get to heaven, since you clearly imply there's another way? You clearly
reject the Bible, even though it's been written over 1,500 years, over 60
books by 40 authors, and is clearliy to most believers the inspired Word of
God. Who wrote the book you believe in that tells you the Word of God? What
is it you're lead to believe that gets you into heaven?
Thanks for posting and God Bless!
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 04:32:26 PM |
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"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
God is supposedly all-powerful. If He wanted me to know something,
then I would know it; and I would know the truth of it.
That's idolatry. You assume that God should be the way you define Him,
and since he's not, you reject Him.
On the contrary: it is precisely because I do *not* worship the Bible
itself, as so many Christians seem to do, that I credit God with the
ability to communicate with His creations directly should He so choose.
It's not God's will that He make
it so obvious to you that you're pretty much forced into believing in
Him. It's His will that you come to Him by faith.
Assuming the existence of your God, then whatever happens is His will.
If I do not believe, and if He condemns me to eternal torment because of
it, all of that, even my non-belief, is HIS WILL. It cannot be
otherwise, or He cannot be what you tell me He is.
There's no therefore. You don't have confidence in the Bible. You are
not trying hard enough to seek him.
I am here if He wants me. If He does not, then it will be as He wills
it.
Using your logic, even if every single person on the earth believed in
God, one could choose not to and say "therefore it's not the Word of
God, or it's not the Word He intended for me". And they'd be wrong.
You say so, of course, because you believe. Therefore, it is impossible
for you to see your God as I see Him.
Then what makes you think you know anything of God, since you reject
His Word?
I reject the word of man when man presumes to tell me God's mind. If God
wishes to tell me His mind, He is quite capable, and does not require
human assistance.
So you still didn't answer the question.
I did in fact answer the question you asked, despite the fact that it was
unrelated to the point I made initially.
You clearly reject the Bible, even though it's been written over 1,500
years
Because a text is old, it does not make it true. When Lord of the Rings
is 1,500 years old, Sauron will be no more real.
and is clearliy to most believers the inspired Word of God.
And there are three words that are the crux (pardon me) of this: "to most
believers". I am not a believer, since I have no reason to believe. The
belief of others is certainly not reason enough in itself for me to
believe.
Who wrote the book you believe in that tells you the Word of God?
There is no book that tells me the Word of God. The Word of God cannot
be bound between dusty covers. One can hear the Word of God only by
listening to God - and even then, only if He has something to say to you.
What is it you're lead to believe that gets you into heaven?
I do not believe in Heaven - therefore how I might get into it is of no
concern. But again, this question you're fixating on here, let's not
forget, is unrelated to the original point I made and that you chose to
respond to:
I said, in answer to the question of whether not believing in (focus,
because this bit's important) *THE TRINITY* would guarantee one's
damnation, that it didn't seem likely. That is because I credit God with
a brain (or ethereal, non-corporeal equivalent) and do not believe that
if He exists He would be a mindless automaton.
Even so, as I explained previously, and as you still apparently fail to
understand, *the Trinity* does NOT equate to Jesus Christ.
--
Midwinter
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 08:51:09 PM |
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Hi again, Midwinter,
"Midwinter" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9952E58CFD701midwintermhotmailcou@216.196.109.145...
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
God is supposedly all-powerful. If He wanted me to know something,
then I would know it; and I would know the truth of it.
That's idolatry. You assume that God should be the way you define Him,
and since he's not, you reject Him.
On the contrary: it is precisely because I do *not* worship the Bible
itself, as so many Christians seem to do, that I credit God with the
ability to communicate with His creations directly should He so choose.
Yes, should He so choose, He would directly communicate with us. But instead
He offers us His Written Word to tell us what we need to know. He doesn't
choose to communicate directly with us anymore. We are in the age of faith.
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you:
for the prince of this world cometh,
and hath nothing in me.
It's not God's will that He make
it so obvious to you that you're pretty much forced into believing in
Him. It's His will that you come to Him by faith.
Assuming the existence of your God, then whatever happens is His will.
If I do not believe, and if He condemns me to eternal torment because of
it, all of that, even my non-belief, is HIS WILL. It cannot be
otherwise, or He cannot be what you tell me He is.
He gives us free will to choose. It's His will that you are free to choose.
John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because
thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen,
and yet have believed.
You have no guide as to what the will of God is save that which you imagine
it to be?
[ .. ]
You clearly reject the Bible, even though it's been written over 1,500
years
Because a text is old, it does not make it true. When Lord of the Rings
is 1,500 years old, Sauron will be no more real.
I didn't say the text was old. I said it was written over a timespan of
1,500 years. Not over the span of a few years of one person's life, by one
author, like the Lord of the Rings. And the Bible has 40 author's. The LoTR
has one. The Bible has over 60 books, each one created at different times
over 1,500 years. The LoTR has three books by one author written over a few
decades, if not less. The LoTR does not try to indicate that sauron is real.
To compare the Bible to the LoTR is silly at best.
and is clearliy to most believers the inspired Word of God.
And there are three words that are the crux (pardon me) of this: "to most
believers". I am not a believer, since I have no reason to believe.
If you are not a believer, what is this "God" *you* speak of?
The
belief of others is certainly not reason enough in itself for me to
believe.
Correct. But if you are a rational person, as I'm sure you are, it should at
least merit your curiosity as to whether there's any merit to what they
believe in, to the miracles they bear witness to in the amazing
transformation of their own lives from the inside out.
Who wrote the book you believe in that tells you the Word of God?
There is no book that tells me the Word of God. The Word of God cannot
be bound between dusty covers.
So the God you believe in is powerless to put His word in a book and
preserve it throughout the ages from us mortals who apparently have more
power than God in this regard?
One can hear the Word of God only by
listening to God - and even then, only if He has something to say to you.
Yes, sometimes we can discern the Will of God for our lives by listening and
praying, but not by direct words from Him .. but rather by what we feel He
has layed upon our hearts, and the interaction of other's in some relevant
way to our prayers that only God knew about.
Does your "God" talk to you directly then? Or to others?
What is it you're lead to believe that gets you into heaven?
I do not believe in Heaven - therefore how I might get into it is of no
concern.
And if by chance you're wrong? God may have given you the information, and
you reject it. So if you're wrong, you cannot say it was His will that you'd
be wrong. He gave you the chance to figure that out, and many other things,
and you rejected His attempt to give it to you through others. Something you
surely must consider. Does your God never try to communicate to you
*through* other people?
But again, this question you're fixating on here,
It was the question asked, so to act like fixating on it is suddenly bad
makes little sense. People tend to "fixate" on the questions asked when
responding, rather than fixating on, say, the weather that day. 8-)
let's not
forget, is unrelated to the original point I made and that you chose to
respond to:
I said, in answer to the question of whether not believing in (focus,
because this bit's important) *THE TRINITY* would guarantee one's
damnation, that it didn't seem likely. That is because I credit God with
a brain (or ethereal, non-corporeal equivalent) and do not believe that
if He exists He would be a mindless automaton.
I said in response, and you also focus here as this is important: where did
you get the information that any trusting in Christ is not necessary, and
that God's will in the matter makes him brainless?
He'd be mindless if He just allowed people to sin no matter what, reject
him, and all of those same people make it to heaven. Now heaven would be no
different than earth. That would be mindless.
Even so, as I explained previously, and as you still apparently fail to
understand, *the Trinity* does NOT equate to Jesus Christ.
Understanding the trinity is often a difficult thing. While Jesus Christ
does not equate exactly to the trinity, He is certainly a part of it.
--
Midwinter
So, please tell me more about what you know about God, if you don't mind.
Thanks for posting!
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
18 Jun 2007 02:14:34 PM |
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"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, should He so choose, He would directly communicate with us. But
instead He offers us His Written Word to tell us what we need to know.
He doesn't choose to communicate directly with us anymore. We are in
the age of faith.
And being our Creator, of course He knows precisely what each of us needs
in order to make us believers. He should: He designed us.
Therefore, if God truly chooses to restrict His revelation to the Bible,
knowing that it is the nature of the majority of humans alive today not
to accept that, then He effectively makes a conscious decision
determining which of us will believe and which will not.
Had He wished, He could have designed all of us to accept the Bible as
truth, as He presumably designed you to. But He chose not to do that.
He gives us free will to choose. It's His will that you are free to
choose.
It is my 'free will' to follow my program, as you follow your own. The
'free will' we believe we have is the freedom to act in accordance with
our nature - which of course was designed and created by God, supposedly.
My nature is the program He wrote and the environment in which He placed
me. And He knows everything I will do, and He has made it so.
I didn't say the text was old. I said it was written over a timespan
of 1,500 years. Not over the span of a few years of one person's life,
by one author, like the Lord of the Rings. And the Bible has 40
author's. The LoTR has one. The Bible has over 60 books, each one
created at different times over 1,500 years. The LoTR has three books
by one author written over a few decades, if not less. The LoTR does
not try to indicate that sauron is real. To compare the Bible to the
LoTR is silly at best.
Had you stopped at the first two statements above, I would simply have
apologised for my misunderstanding. Unfortunately, you didn't. You then
felt compelled to tell me why a book written over centuries by myriad
authors, each with different opinions and points of view; compiled by
different editors, each with different opinions and points of view; then
translated numerous times by different translations, each with different
opinions and points of view is more reliable than one written by one
author.
That seems to me to be counter to common sense.
If you are not a believer, what is this "God" *you* speak of?
The god in question is one I do not believe in. I speak out of academic
interest only.
Correct. But if you are a rational person, as I'm sure you are, it
should at least merit your curiosity as to whether there's any merit
to what they believe in, to the miracles they bear witness to in the
amazing transformation of their own lives from the inside out.
You seem to assume I have no familiarity with the Christian faith.
However, I merely said I did not believe in it.
So the God you believe in is powerless to put His word in a book and
preserve it throughout the ages from us mortals who apparently have
more power than God in this regard?
That was a nice try. I would have been more impressed, though, if the
Bible - the very Word of God, according to you - was not in some ways so
prone to alteration (usually according to the publisher's own agenda);
and in other ways so entirely inflexible as to fail entirely (at least
discounting the wishful re-interpretation of believers) to address modern
concerns and challenges.
But to humour you: no, it's not that my 'God' - or yours, for that matter
- is *incapable* of doing this. He's *capable* of doing it - it's just
that a moment's thought tells us that He's no need to. Why in the world
would you imagine that God's Word needs preserving on insubstantial,
evanescent paper, when God Himself is *eternal*? Why should He not write
His messages in the stars? Though even they are just brief flares in His
eyes...
Yes, sometimes we can discern the Will of God for our lives by
listening and praying, but not by direct words from Him .. but rather
by what we feel He has layed upon our hearts, and the interaction of
other's in some relevant way to our prayers that only God knew about.
Well done. Yet you look only for direct words, written in an ancient
book.
Does your "God" talk to you directly then? Or to others?
'God', I'm sure, has many things to say. Those who listen may well hear
them.
And if by chance you're wrong? God may have given you the information,
and you reject it. So if you're wrong, you cannot say it was His will
that you'd be wrong. He gave you the chance to figure that out, and
many other things, and you rejected His attempt to give it to you
through others. Something you surely must consider. Does your God
never try to communicate to you *through* other people?
You're asking me now about *my* gods, which are a very different matter.
Are you quite sure you want me to speak of them? I would not like to
seem to be preaching, and I wouldn't have thought they were particularly
relevant. Do you believe otherwise?
But again, this question you're fixating on here,
It was the question asked, so to act like fixating on it is suddenly
bad makes little sense.
No, this is the question that was asked:
"It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?"
This is the answer I gave at first:
"I very much doubt it. Unless God really is the mindless idiot the
fundies make Him out to be."
You then jump in with:
"If you very much doubt it, that's a nice opinion. If you have God's Word
to back that up, then you'd have something to go on. So where in God's
word that by anything other than believing in the blood of Jesus Christ
do we get to heaven?"
The mistake you make here seems quite clear: Where I answered the
question of whether or not one goes to Hell if one does not believe in
THE TRINITY, *you* challenged an answer I hadn't given, namely that one
could go to Heaven without believing in CHRIST.
Of course, as I said, it's all academic to me - but that doesn't preclude
me from answering from my understanding of Christianity. If you wish to
challenge that understanding then by all means do, insincere smileys or
not - but you WILL impress me more if you give the impression that you
know what I've actually said.
I said in response, and you also focus here as this is important:
where did you get the information that any trusting in Christ is not
necessary
Nowhere. Which is why I didn't say that. Read back.
--
Midwinter
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| User: " ::: vera :::" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 02:54:07 PM |
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In news:eWddi.95393$Sa4.94315@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net,
Gabriel <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> typed:
"Midwinter" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9951BBDF6A5Emidwintermhotmailcou@216.196.109.145...
Matt. <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you
automatically go to hell. Is this so?
It's not as simple as that, but midwinter adds:
I very much doubt it. Unless God really is the mindless idiot the
fundies make Him out to be.
--
Midwinter
If you very much doubt it, that's a nice opinion. If you have God's
Word to back that up, then you'd have something to go on. So where in
God's word that by anything other than believing in the blood of
Jesus Christ do we get to heaven?
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of
the Lord shall be saved.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave
he power to become the sons of God, even to
them that believe on his name:
It can't get any clearer than that. We get to heaven by realizing we
are sinners, repenting from our sins, realizing the wages of sins is
death, and believing that Jesus Christ, being the son of God, bore
the punishment for our sins on the cross. This is the only way to get
into heaven.
Jesus Christ - right! Not Jesus Gonzales, right?
Now, what is the difference?
Rather than offering your opinion, or the opinion of those who
clearly do not preach to you from the Bible, why don't you rely on
the what the Bible says? Quote from the Bible where it says you can
get to heaven any other way. If you cannot, then what you say is not
the Word of God. It's that simple.
Thanks for posting and God Bless!
God Bless,
::: vera :::
<> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Revelation 22:17 WEB The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" He who hears,
let him say, "Come!" He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires,
let him take the water of life freely.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 04:04:22 PM |
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Thanks for posting, vera.
" ::: vera :::" <veralein@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:5dlhr3F352n0cU1@mid.individual.net...
In news:eWddi.95393$Sa4.94315@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net,
Gabriel <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> typed:
"Midwinter" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9951BBDF6A5Emidwintermhotmailcou@216.196.109.145...
Matt. <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you
automatically go to hell. Is this so?
It's not as simple as that, but midwinter adds:
I very much doubt it. Unless God really is the mindless idiot the
fundies make Him out to be.
--
Midwinter
If you very much doubt it, that's a nice opinion. If you have God's
Word to back that up, then you'd have something to go on. So where in
God's word that by anything other than believing in the blood of
Jesus Christ do we get to heaven?
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of
the Lord shall be saved.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave
he power to become the sons of God, even to
them that believe on his name:
It can't get any clearer than that. We get to heaven by realizing we
are sinners, repenting from our sins, realizing the wages of sins is
death, and believing that Jesus Christ, being the son of God, bore
the punishment for our sins on the cross. This is the only way to get
into heaven.
Jesus Christ - right! Not Jesus Gonzales, right?
Now, what is the difference?
Probably the same difference between people who believe in God that post in
religious newsgroups out of sincerity, spreading the Word of God, and those
who blaspheme God who post in religious newsgroups out of the desire to
spread discord.
Rather than offering your opinion, or the opinion of those who
clearly do not preach to you from the Bible, why don't you rely on
the what the Bible says? Quote from the Bible where it says you can
get to heaven any other way. If you cannot, then what you say is not
the Word of God. It's that simple.
Thanks for posting and God Bless!
God Bless,
::: vera :::
<> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Revelation 22:17 WEB The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" He who hears,
let him say, "Come!" He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let
him take the water of life freely.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
Thanks for posting and God Bless!
.
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| User: " ::: vera :::" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
17 Jun 2007 05:58:24 PM |
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In news:qlhdi.179499$p47.23479@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net,
Gabriel <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> typed:
Thanks for posting, vera.
You are welcome.
" ::: vera :::" <veralein@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:5dlhr3F352n0cU1@mid.individual.net...
In news:eWddi.95393$Sa4.94315@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net,
Gabriel <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> typed:
"Midwinter" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9951BBDF6A5Emidwintermhotmailcou@216.196.109.145...
Matt. <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you
automatically go to hell. Is this so?
It's not as simple as that, but midwinter adds:
I very much doubt it. Unless God really is the mindless idiot the
fundies make Him out to be.
--
Midwinter
If you very much doubt it, that's a nice opinion. If you have God's
Word to back that up, then you'd have something to go on. So where
in God's word that by anything other than believing in the blood of
Jesus Christ do we get to heaven?
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of
the Lord shall be saved.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave
he power to become the sons of God, even to
them that believe on his name:
It can't get any clearer than that. We get to heaven by realizing we
are sinners, repenting from our sins, realizing the wages of sins is
death, and believing that Jesus Christ, being the son of God, bore
the punishment for our sins on the cross. This is the only way to
get into heaven.
Jesus Christ - right! Not Jesus Gonzales, right?
Now, what is the difference?
Probably the same difference between people who believe in God that
post in religious newsgroups out of sincerity, spreading the Word of
God, and those who blaspheme God who post in religious newsgroups out
of the desire to spread discord.
Good answer - yes, this might be comparable.
Rather than offering your opinion, or the opinion of those who
clearly do not preach to you from the Bible, why don't you rely on
the what the Bible says? Quote from the Bible where it says you can
get to heaven any other way. If you cannot, then what you say is not
the Word of God. It's that simple.
Thanks for posting and God Bless!
God Bless,
::: vera :::
<> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Revelation 22:17 WEB The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" He who
hears, let him say, "Come!" He who is thirsty, let him come. He who
desires, let him take the water of life freely.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
Thanks for posting and God Bless!
May the Lord continue to shine His light on you!
::: vera :::
.
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| User: "Ben Mitts" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 12:58:06 PM |
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Matt. wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
Matt,
I think it is safe to make
the statement that Salvation
comes by believing in Jesus
Christ and trusting in Him that
He is able to keep that which
is His. It is not by works that
we are guaranteed Eternal life
but one of simple believing in
Christ
This is the Truth I hold as a be-
liever, how say you?
--
Peace!
Sincerely,
Ben mitts :)
2) preach the word; be ready in season and out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound
doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will
accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their
own desires, (4) and will turn away their ears from the truth
and will turn aside to myths.(2 Tim 4:2-4)
From The Word of God: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in
the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that
whoever believes may in Him have eternal life." Therefore we
may, as many will to do so: "But as many as received Him, to
them He gave the right to become children of God, even to
those who believe in His name," (John 1:12)
.
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| User: "servitum" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 01:15:31 PM |
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Ben Mitts wrote:
Matt. wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me about what is
good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
Matt,
I think it is safe to make
the statement that Salvation
comes by believing in Jesus
Christ and trusting in Him that
He is able to keep that which
is His. It is not by works that
we are guaranteed Eternal life
but one of simple believing in
Christ
This is the Truth I hold as a
believer, how say you?
"Believing in Jesus Christ" does not include believing trinity doctrine.
No. Martha gave the confession which saves us, John 11:
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that
believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest
thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ,
the Son of God, which should come into the world."
Martha confessed what she knew in her mind and what she believed in her
heart and soul... and that is not/was not trinity doctrine.
Glenn
His witness
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| User: " ::: vera :::" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 02:41:25 PM |
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In news:1378a63r8g7jh4d@corp.supernews.com,
servitum <ser.vitum@xprt.net> typed:
"Believing in Jesus Christ" does not include believing trinity
doctrine.
Another confession that OWD is a blasphemer...
No. Martha gave the confession which saves us, John 11:
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that
believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ,
the Son of God, which should come into the world."
Martha confessed what she knew in her mind and what she believed in
her heart and soul... and that is not/was not trinity doctrine.
It is sad that God has not revealed to Glenn that Jesus is God. But do
not be fooled by this charlatan.
Glenn
His witness
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| User: "Matt. " |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 04:30:22 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:58:06 -0400, Ben Mitts <benmitts@comcast.net>
wrote:
Matt. wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
Matt,
I think it is safe to make
the statement that Salvation
comes by believing in Jesus
Christ and trusting in Him that
He is able to keep that which
is His. It is not by works that
we are guaranteed Eternal life
but one of simple believing in
Christ
This is the Truth I hold as a be-
liever, how say you?
I believe in Jesus Christ yes.
Believing in Christ may be enough but doing good works doesn't hurt
either. Doing both is to me the best.
God Bless
Matt
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
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| User: "MichaelB" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 07:03:15 PM |
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Matt you are correct. Paul taught that a faith without works is a dead
faith. Romans can be misunderstood as Paul is a Pharisee of Pharisees. We
could say he is like the Chief Justus of the Supreme court. In Romans he
speaks to four people groups. I suggest a book by Mark Nanos "The Mystery
of Romans". A very good writing that puts the first century into
perspective.
Very little in the NT has not been taught already in the Old. If you have
questions on Atonement look up Lev 17. Especially 17:1 , and 17:11-14.
GOD is teaching Moshe about atonement and how it works. It will clear up
the term "blood". As it is the physical representation of LIFE. Blood
atones because of the LIFE. Blood has been a idiom for over 3500 years to
mean LIFE. These are not my words but GOD's.
Someone else has already stated that the NT is a an explanation of the Old.
How so very true.
If you want to know what Torah was to the Israelites, research what a
ketubah is in the Jewish faith. You'll find out why Israel is called the
Bride. Why GOD sent the prophets, why GOD will not abandon the Israelites,
why GOD will be faithful to Israel even in her rebellion.
Believing in Christ may be enough but doing good works doesn't hurt
either. Doing both is to me the best.
Just remember to have faith in GOD first. Thru
massiah/Torah/Jesus/Yeshua/Word of GOD/Scripture all is accomplished. Do
not fall into the trap of son worship. I know; if you have the son you have
the father, but even Jesus said believe in the father that sent me. He only
does the will of his father; nothing on his own.
God Bless
Matt
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
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| User: "servitum" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 12:43:16 PM |
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Matt. wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
No. Martha gave the confession which saves us, John 11:
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that
believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest
thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ,
the Son of God, which should come into the world."
Martha confessed what she knew in her mind and what she believed in her
heart and soul... and that is not/was not trinity doctrine.
These are Christ words:
Matthew 19 (New International Version)
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is
only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the
commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not
steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and
mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still
lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had
great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is
hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell
you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and
asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What
then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all
things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have
followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes
of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters
or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive
a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who
are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
Be well
Matt
http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/
This is a good post, Matt.
If I may, please allow me to comment:
"TRINITY" IS NOT IN GODS WORD
In the thread "TO REFUTE THE TRIUNE GOD," one of the posters has
confessed that,
Quote:
"Early Christians attempting to reconcile [scripture describing God, the
Son of God and Spirit of God] developed the doctrine of the Trinity as a
way of explaining them collectively."
End quote.
http://tinyurl.com/zaq7s
This admission that "... developed the doctrine of the Trinity" is PROOF
that the doctrine of "trinity" is NOT in the Bible, BUT WAS "DEVELOPED"
(formulated) by the mind of man in an attempt to explain scripture which
describes God, The Son of God and the Holy Spirit. That they needed to
"develop an explanation" is a confession that they did NOT comprehend
the subject they were attempting to explain.
This same poster then states,
quote:
The Bible makes a number of claims, and the doctrine of the Trinity is
an explanation of those claims.
end quote.
http://tinyurl.com/elwac
This is yet another confession that 'trintiy' doctrine is NOT in God's
Word, but that it is "an explanation." In fact, this doctrine is a Greek
Mythological explanation of pagan three headed gods "painted over"
(added into) the Bible in an attempt to explain the infinite God to the
finite mind of man.
BUILDING BLOCKS OF FALSE DOCTRINE
This poster goes on to attempt to support the "development" of a
doctrine which is NOT in the Bible by stating,
Quote:
The foundational building blocks of the doctrine are right there in the
Bible.
End quote.
http://tinyurl.com/he5ab
Yet, again, this is an admission that the doctrine of the 'trinity' is
NOT in the Bible, but that its "building blocks" are... So you claim the
"building blocks" are in the Bible, but admit the doctrine is not.
The same 'building blocks' were used in Jonestown and Waco Texas, et al,
ad infinitum in nauseous. The "building blocks" found in the Bible have
been used to build any number of false doctrines ... and 'trinity' is
just one more.
Matt, to reply to your question:
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
No! And neither are Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Daniel or John the Baptist!
A staunch supporter of trinity doctrine confessed that it is not in the
Bible, and was not needed for salvation by the First Century Church --
and is therefore not needed today!
The false doctrine of the "trinity" was "formulated" and or "developed"
during the three or four hundred years after the passing of the Apostles
-- after the Bible was complete.
See 'A brief History of the trinity :
Found at: http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/53.htm
The false doctrine of the triune god was institutionalized by the pagan
man/god Constantine in AD 325. The "trinity" is a Greek Metaphysical
explanation of pagan triune gods 'painted over' (added into) scripture.
The idea that God is a "triune god" is not found in the Word of God.
Athanasius has also admitted that the triune gods was added to the
church after the Bible was completed -- and that those who believe what
IS in the Bible will be judged for what they find IN God's Word:
Quote:
I certainly agree that for those who are truly seperated from the
historical Christian Church and her teachings and who have possession
of the Holy Bible and have faith in God will not be judged according
to what I or any within the historical Church have been exposed to,
but will stand before God on the Last day and shall be accountable to
Him for what they -did- know and how they loved and responded to
others with the little truth they had.
end quote.
See.
http://tinyurl.com/edrvk
or try
http://tinyurl.com/zdg6k
-------------------------
Athanasius statement is certainly convoluted, but it is a confession
that "trinity doctrine" was unknown to First Century Christians, and
that it is unnecessary for salvation.
A Christian may, indeed should, believe every Word God gave to describe
and reveal Him Self, His Son and His Holy Spirit to His People -- and
reject the false doctrine of the triune gods.
May the Lord Bless you,
and lead you
Glenn
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| User: "Sam Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
18 Jun 2007 03:57:05 PM |
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Of olde it hast been said
Hear Oh Israel the L-rd thy G-d is
Three in One giving blessing unto those
who are taught the Right formula.
BUT will smite those in anger with His mighty three in one arm whom
are not taught this formula nor settest their hearts to believe this
Holy three in one Formula
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| User: "Mike Bugal" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
18 Jun 2007 12:24:34 AM |
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On Jun 16, 12:12 pm, Matt. <trdell1234@......gmail.com > wrote:
It is told that if you do not believe in the trinity you automatically
go to hell. Is this so?
The first question I have to ask is this:
If we deny the triune nature of God, Who do we rob of the divinity
clear gievn to Them by the Word of God?
Do we deny that the Father is God... even though the Bible clearly
says that He is? Do we deny that the Son is God... even though the
Bible clearly says that He is? Do we deny that the Holy Spirit is
God...even though the Bible clearly teaches that He is?
The next question is:
If we deny the triune nature of God, Who do we rob of mind, will and
emotion (distinct Personhood) given to them by the Word of God?
Do we deny that the Father has mind, will and emotion...even though
the Bible clearly says that He does? Do we deny that the Son has mind
will and emotion...even though the Bible clearly says He does? Do we
deny that the Holy Spirit has mind, will and emotion...even though the
Bible says that He does?
No, the triune nature of God is not easy for man to grasp... in fact,
it is impossible for us to COMPREHEND it. It would be like an amoeba
trying to grasp humanity. But we can APPREHEND it because the Bible
clearly teaches that the Father,Son and Holy Spirit are GOD and They
are distinct One from Another in mind, will and emotion. The doctrine
called "The Trinity" does a far better job of defining "God" without
robbing those attributes the Bible clearly gives us than any other
teaching devised by men over the last 2,000+ years.
His and Yours,
Mike Bugal
Heartland Christian Ministries
http://www.hcm2.org/
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| User: "Mark T moi@ere13" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
18 Jun 2007 06:20:25 PM |
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"Mike Bugal" wrote:
Do we deny that the Son is God... even though the
Bible clearly says that He is?
It DOESN'T clearly say so. Does God have a God?
"I [Jesus] am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, MY GOD AND YOUR GOD" -
John 20:17
No, the triune nature of God is not easy for man to grasp... in fact,
it is impossible for us to COMPREHEND it.
That's because it isn't true.
Numbers 23: 19 - God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man,
that he should change his mind.
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity/ song covers & pics & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 12:37:24 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 09:12:56 -0800, Matt.
<trdell1234@......gmail.com > spoke thusly:
I have studied this but found no real evidence that trinity is
required for salvation.
Early Christians did not have access to the Bible are they mostly
Damned?
They had access to the Scriptures. And they wrote
the New Testament and others read their writings.
Besides this, the NT is the revealing of the message
in the OT.
The question is, how do we find salvation by not
believing in who He is?
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
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| User: "old man joe" |
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| Title: Re: If you do not believe in the trinity you automaticly go to Hell |
16 Jun 2007 03:33:06 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 09:12:56 -0800, Matt. <trdell1234@......gmail.com
wrote:
It is told that if you do n | |
