| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Timothy Sutter" |
| Date: |
07 Dec 2003 10:10:37 AM |
| Object: |
Imperial Edict Christianity |
when The Roman Empire "converted"
to christianity, the Roman civil
authority remained essentially the same.
that is to say, people do not become
"christian" by Imperial Edict. an Emperor
may declare his realm "christian" but that
same Emperor does not have the ability
to breath the Holy Spirit into his subjects.
that should be clear.
so, though the population under
the Emperor was now -called- "christian"
by virtue of an Imperial Decree, there
were still many Platonist/Aristotelian
philosophical 'deists' and Epicurean/Lucretian
'materialist non-theists' in the realm
who did no such thing, and who were now
-called- "Christian" by virtue of
that same Imperial Decree.
that is to say, they were now
"Christian" in name only, but
they were no more "christian"
after Decree than they were before.
the difference being between a
"Christian" by Imperial Edict and
a "christian" by the indwelling
Spirit of God.
this should be clear.
this now concerns all of europe,
inasmuch as it concerns the political
environment of the Roman Church
after 476 AD.
digression:
this is the major flaw in the erection
of a "christian" political structure.
being born in a "Christian" nation or
Empire does -not- make all land born
citizens of that state "christian".
one may be born in a "Christian" nation,
and therefore called "Christian" and live
out their entire life, never having been
'begotten of God" by virtue of the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and,
therefore, -not- actually
-being- a "christian".
that's not even a knotty situation.
first off, "welcome to America"
here, one is born simply 'an american'
and bears not the burden of being
called "Christian" from birth.
and we still realize that the defining
element -of- christianity -is- this
'supra-natural' indwelling of God's
own Spirit in our earthly jars.
and now, back to Rome;
what this seeming confusion does do is
make a target for reactionary anti-christians
to point at and claim "christians are the
source of a great deal of harm in the world."
but seeing clearly the confusion caused by
Imperial Edict, one must discount these
claims against "christians" as unfounded.
when the truth of the matter is, that the
political establishment in that mileu
was near totally non-theist in form anyway.
before Justinian and Constantine, they had
devolved into a state where the emperor
was god, and no real Deity outside of
the Emperor was believed to exist.
this is basically secular humanism with a statuary.
"Man is the Measure of All Things"
their "religion" was the roman civil authority.
and when Justinian [or Constantine] 'converted'
to "christianity" believe it or not, he simply
waved his magic wand and declared the entire
roman world "christian" by His Imperial Decree.
get this straight, the emperor waved his wand
and declared to be "christian" people who were,
up to that point, secular humanists who "worshipped"
or paid special reverence to the emperor,
in among the Roman Civil Authority.
now, a rose may smell sweet if you call it a frog,
but a non-theist materialist does not
become a christian by waving a magic wand.
period.
and just think on this for 2 seconds,
imagine how cynical these people were/became
when a depraved maniac like Caligula was their
"god", and you'd like to try and convince yourself
that the Roman civil authority represented
a Monolith of ethics and ideology.
ethicists who, by the way, form the basis
for much of your "modern" political world view.
but who, in no manner were ever "christian" in
anything other than that Justinian or Constantine
waved his magic wand over their collective heads.
so, when you damn the early Roman Church
you are basically damning the Roman Civil
Authority who is comprised nearly entirely
of materialist, non-theist emperor worshipping
non-christian, human beings.
and any idea that anyone may feel that they may
continue to attribute the bastardized ethics of
the Roman civil authority to "christians" is such
an irrational anti-christian stand that they
should turn in your forensics pins immediately.
mind you, in large part, these are the folks
who dream up these elaborate metaphysical
arguments about "god".
arguments which also form the basis
for much of the "religion of science"
these form the underpinning for
most of your widely held beliefs.
just remember; Galileo was arguing against
the 'greco-roman' earth centered universe
and _not_ against any sort of hebraic
biblical reckoning of the universe.
that is, the earth centered universe
-was- the "science" of the aristotelian
"non-christian" world, and -not-
the christian world.
some of this should clear the bugs
from your screen when looking at
so-called 'historic records' of
'christian behavior'.
-i- -can- make no apologetic statements
for the behaviors of a "Christian"
environment that is -not- the product
of Holy Spirit indwelling,
and neither do i now nor will
i ever feel impelled to do so.
quite the contrary, -my- people
are owed the well wishing.
we smile.
there's more...
.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: Imperial Edict Christianity |
07 Dec 2003 10:12:55 AM |
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Constantine promoted Christianity as the religion
of the Roman state and involved himself closely in
internal Church affairs
Constantine did not 'promote' Christianity, he tolerated it.
Constantine was baptized.
a baptism is a public declaration.
Constantine, as emperor, -is- "the state"
therefore, when Constatine is baptized, he makes
a public declaration that the "state" has converted
to some form of 'christianity'.
and a "public declaration" -is- and "edict"
this is more than a toleration.
becoming baptized, whether near
death or not, is full promotion.
And his involvement in the Council of Nicaea was
to do with 'public order'. Doctrinal disputes in
the Church were leading to riots in the streets.
i would think that it would have more to do with
the empire's -need- for 'christian' allegiance
considering the fact that the numbers of christians
within the empire's sphere of influence
was growing to a large number.
so, you -could- say that Constantine's
concerns were that of political expediancy.
questioning Constatine's motives is not the issue here.
the issue is one of "state religion"
however, if you would like
to consider Constatine's motives,
there are, at first glance, two options;
either his "conversion" was genuine
or his "conversion" was not genuine.
was his "conversion" a cynical grasp
at 'christian allegiance'?
or was it genuine?
i'm -willing- to accept that it was genuine.
-but- even if this roman emperor
had some sort of genuine conversion,
his personal public declarations of christian faith
do not transfer to a christianization of all imperial
subjects, whether or not "the state" declares it so.
if his conversion was not genuine, but -only-
a political ploy, then most assuredly, his public
declarations are meaningless entirely.
The Church endured persecution after Constantine's death - notably
under Emperor Julian ('the Apostate');
Constantine's immediate successors tried
to overturn Constantine's public declaration.
fine.
but when you say "the Church" i bet
you'll find that the Roman systematized
Church structure, as exists today,
was not in place.
and you only need to read Apuleius' 'Golden *****' to see
how strong paganism was at the end of the 4th century.
what exactly is 'paganism'?
no -Roman- would ever have
called Jupiter a 'pagan' deity.
'pagan' is a latin term which means "country dweller"
this is sort of a "outside/inside
the beltway" type of mentallity.
that is, there's the world inside of Rome,
and then there's the outlying countryside
or "the sticks" and that's where "pagans" live.
and so, a Roman citizen living in Rome
would never have referred to himself
or herself as a "pagan"
therefore, to a Roman citizen, living in
the city, who celebrated "Jupiter" would
never have suggested that "Jupiter"
was a "pagan deity"
to a Roman, jerusalem and Judea was
most definitely "the sticks"
so, for the Roman, the practices of
the so-called 'jews' would have
been considered "pagan"
now, what exactly do you call
"pagan" in this context?
though he was not actually
baptized a Christian until a few days before his death.
Constantine was baptised by an Arian bishop,
be that as it may, when Constantine is bapized as "Christian"
he makes a de facto declaration concerning "the state"
if you mean to say that his conversion
was not genuine, that's your business.
maybe it wasn't.
and some of his successors tried to enforce Arianism
on the Church - Athanasius of Alexandria and the Bishops
of Rome stood out strongly against this Imperial policy.
[Arians deny the Holy Trinity - Jehovah's Witnesses are a modern
example.]
arianism and aspects of gnosticism
quite probably did find their way
into the church doctrine.
simple example is this;
accoding to the gnostics,
YHWH is a demonic influence.
the jews, being a people of YHWH could
then be villified as "agents of the devil"
or "agenst of Satan"
trouble is, that many of the gnostics
who glommed onto christianity were jews.
so, when -they- tried to smuggle in
these trouiblesome ideas of YHWH as demon,
they become an assist in the church's hatred of jews.
so, it's not so easy to point fingers.
one of the very insidious and
damaging aspects of gnosticism.
but basically, when an Emperor 'promotes' a thing ...
yes - we have seen this in England when the Henry VIII and his
successors 'promoted' Protestantism.
actually, England has a "State Church"
are you at all disagreeing with the statement that
one does not become a christian by Imperial Edict?
i'm more than willing to hash out internal strife
within what may have been a "christian" church in
name only, of any stripe, but the primary statement
that i wanted to make here was that one is not
"christian" by Edict or by "state religion"
and so, some who may have been called "christian"
by virtue of such a "state religion" need not have
had any actual relationship with Jesus Christ in
The Holy Spirit and therefore, one may not 'blame'
Church excesses on "christians" who are, in fact,
the product of Holy Spirit indwelling.
is -that- ok with you?
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: Imperial Edict Christianity |
07 Dec 2003 10:13:32 AM |
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just remember this;
neither Greece nor Rome conquered
the ancient world using "reason" as such.
Alexander did not roll into towns -arguing-
the benefits of life under Grecian domination.
Rome used an iron military force to conquer people,
essentially, "obey the Roman legions
or we put your head on a pipe."
the only 'rational' response being;
"oh, i see your point"
and the streets were still, oftentimes,
lined with people's heads on a pipe.
Roman Reason in a nutshell.
this can -not- be said of 'christianity'
christians did not go town to town
and threaten people with bodily harm
should they not accept Jesus Christ as Savior.
no, they went town to town and reasoned
and discussed the beneficial aspects
of a life in Christ. Paul being an
example of this sort of travelling
discussion group.
Paul was threatened with bodily harm
and Paul was beaten and scourged
on several occasions.
Paul did -not- club people over
the head with some "or else" attitude.
so, the "reason" of Greece and Rome
that 'conquered' the ancient world is,
"do as i say or suffer the consequences"
can be categorized somewhere
under Cynical Pragmatism[CP].
"good is good for me and
bad is not good for me"
whereas, the reason that christians use
is that "we may return to God thru
Jesus Christ and here's how."
what happens after Constantine gets
a hold of it is the infusion of such
an authoritarian [CP] "reason" with
the -Name- of Christ.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: Imperial Edict Christianity |
07 Dec 2003 10:14:44 AM |
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and for the sake of reason;
in Athens, the only people who
could participate in voting was
male landowners over the age of 30.
and so, the only people who could
acually -use- logical discourse
for any purposeful gain were
these same people.
and it's of record that the Platonic/Aristotelian
vision of women was basically that they were some
sort of freak of nature and not really
even human at all.
whereas, Israel is on record as having
a 'prophetess' called Deborah who actually
sat in Moses' seat and Judged among the people.
-this- would have been unheard
of in any other 'society' to the
point of being laughable.
as far as Paul's dictum that a woman should
not take authority over a man in doctrinal
discourses within a marriage, he in no way
excludes women from full membership in the
Body of Christ, and the indication is
that we are all taught by Christ inasmuch
as the Body of believers -is-
the Bride of Christ.
and so, we always defer to Christ.
Paul even says that people held as
slaves are full members of this Body.
so, tell me again how the "reason" of
the Greco-Roman world is of a superior
stature than that of the Indwelling Nature of Christ.
truly, even the 'foolishness' of God
outranks the grandest 'wisdom' that
man can accomplish of his own device.
man's 'wisdom' ends always in
privatized cabals who seek their
own good to the exclusion of all else.
now tell me, is a man's head
on a pipe good for -that- man?
when the 'reasonable discussion' of 'the good'
takes on this egocentric frame of mind,
a narcissistic population who survives
at the end of a weapon is the
-only- possible result.
<sarcasm>
hurray for Hercules and his 'syndrome'
</sarcasm>
the Levitical call to put to death that
part of your nature which tends towards
egocentrism is well founded and
a Godly sort of Wisdom.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Galatian Indulgences |
07 Dec 2003 10:16:44 AM |
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this is that bit about Galatian
indulgences i was promising.
If you read the letter to the Galatians
thru this sort of filter, you'll see
more clearly just what Paul
is so irate about.
look at these first;
-----
Ezekiel 22:12
In you they take bribes to shed blood;
you take usury and increase; you have made
profit from your neighbors by extortion,
and have forgotten Me," says YHWH.
Isaiah 1:23
Your princes are rebellious, And companions of
thieves; Everyone loves bribes, And follows after
rewards. They do not defend the fatherless,
Nor does the cause of the widow come before them.
Isaiah 5:23
Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And
take away justice from the righteous man!
Amos 5:12
For I know your manifold transgressions And your
mighty sins: Afflicting the just and taking bribes;
Diverting the poor from justice at the gate.
Micah 7:3
That they may successfully do evil with both hands--
The prince asks for gifts, The judge seeks a bribe,
And the great man utters his evil desire;
So they scheme together.
-----
remember, Paul taught Christ
from the Law and The Prophets.
----
Acts 28:23
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came
in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying.
From morning till evening he explained and declared
to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them
about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
----
i want you to get a feel for why
our dear brother Paul was so irate
over this thing, and this is the
sort of background material that
will assist in that effort.
and now, here's my own little drama;
here's the 'priests and magistrates'
under the -traditions- of bribery
and injustice for pay;
----
supplicant:
i looked at a piece of bacon
and it sure was yummy,
i wanted some.
priest:
gimme fifty bucks
and we'll overlook
this offense.
----
see cuz look, there are prescriptions
for propitiating various infractions
and maintaining 'ritual purity'
in the big L Law.
and Israel was a peculiar people to YHWH.
that is, YHWH was keeping a peculiar
people to pull Messiah out from.
that was one of the main purposes of "ritual purity."
but some priests used it as a tool to bind
the people up in sins and extract a
charge from them for that.
all too often, this charge was usurious.
the people didn't know much, they only saw the
priests wearing finery and smelling like
roses and myrhh and standing before the Temple,
with salves and ointments to balm up the great
big sores that -they- had helped place on
the people's bodies.
they kept the people's minds always on their "sin"
and sat there with a bucket in
their hands to collect -their- debt.
they tied the people up in a bondage,
and they didn't lift a finger to alleviate
the real trouble, and they did away with
the prescriptions from the Law and just
sat there with their collective hands
out to "take way the sin guilt"
Christ's Faithful Life and bloody sacrifice
on the Cross justifies -you- and makes you
neat and tidy with the Almighty.
so, don't let anyone sneak up behind
you and demand an indulgence from
you ever again.
"oops, stubbed your toe, that'll be
200 dollars or you don't get your
free parking and you go directly
to jail[hell]."
no no no no no.
don't be a foolish Galatian.
rely on Jesus Christ.
I may add some details here, but essentially,
"ritual purity" became "bondage to sin"
and in Israel, a peculiar people to YHWH,
such infractions of ritual purity
left an immediate sign on the body.
and why was it that everyone was getting
sicker under the indulgent practices
of the priests?
greedy for gain.
but -this- sort of thing is what
Paul is raving about to The Galatians.
-not- and -never- that The Law
was an institution of Slavery.
just so you know, more often than not,
even in Israel, these folks had not even
any sort of belief in God other than
their own bellies.
----
Micah 3:11
Her heads judge for a bribe, Her priests teach for
pay, And her prophets divine for money. Yet they
lean on YHWH, and say, "Is not YHWH among us?
No harm can come upon us."
----
see, they even speak amongst themselves
as if YHWH sanctions their own
Idolatry of Self.
-that- is a blindness.
they may have spoken in "godly" tones you'd
recognize, but they were no less non-theist
than these "modern day" free range atheists
who roam about spewing their gainsaying
from ignorance.
i know where they stand,
and i know where I stand,
and i won't be standing with them,
ever.
and now, don't -ever- get the idea
that Jesus -didn't- come and say;
"well done thou good and faithful servant"
to these people because they were properly
carrying out their duties under Big L Law
and he didn't like them for that.
in other words, Jesus chastized these people in the
harshest tones possible for the very fact that they
had utterly abrogated their _duties_ in favor of
enslaving the people to -their- plylacteries,
and the intentional perversion of Justice.
mind you, it wasn't even -their- duties they
had abrogated, as the levites were given a
secondary position and the some of the Judah-ites,
who had crawled into bed with the Roman civil
authority, usurped and took over the duties of
Temple worship and ritual purity aside from
their attribution under the law.
Herod was a Roman puppet, -but-, he was a 'jew'
and you have some of the "cheif priests saying;
"we have no King but Caesar"
---
John 19:15
But they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him!
Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify
your King?" The chief priests answered,
"We have no king but Caesar!"
---
no, Jesus didn't give them the nod -because- they
had turned away and instituted a vicious greedy
money-making scheme of their own.
you don't owe nobody nuthin'
except to love them.
that's actually a bible verse too;
---
Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything except to love
one another, for he who loves
another has fulfilled the law.
---
remember, YHWH God doesn't take bribes.
---
Exodus 23:8
And you shall take no bribe, for
a bribe blinds the discerning and
perverts the words of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 10:17
For YHWH your God is God of gods and
Lord of lords, the great God, mighty
and awesome, who shows no partiality
nor takes a bribe.
---
don't you -offer- them.
cuz it is true, in part, that you
should not -be able- to cheat
an honest person.
and there you'd be, thinking you can bribe God.
and them, encouraging this wayward attitude.
and you, spiralling into oblivion.
and then you see what it means to have
a blind man lead the blind into a ditch.
self deceived and deceiving others.
-but- "we see" you say, and "your sin remains"
you -think- you see, but your imaginings are
so utterly darkened by your -own- sin that
you can -never- see clearly enough to assist
your brothers in removing that speck from their eyes.
and so, you poke their eyes out instead.
and then ask _them_ to ask forgiveness
after -you- have poked out _their_ eyes.
----
Proverbs 15:27
He who is greedy for gain troubles his own house,
But he who hates bribes will live.
Proverbs 17:23
A wicked man accepts a bribe behind
the back To pervert the ways of justice.
----
mind you, i'm not trying to indict
any specific living people.
but if you see tghis sort of thing
creep up in your houses, -try-
to steer clear of it.
ask Jesus for the Mercy to
see this and seek correction.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: God is Aware |
07 Dec 2003 10:18:39 AM |
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just remember, we don't
"anthropomorphize" God,
no, we 'deomorphize' human beings,
that is, we reckon that human beings
have characteristic -potentials- 'like'
God and that -these- are the traits
which are to be magnified.
so, if we suggest to you that God has form
we need not be accused of abstracting an
Image of God from humanity, and neither
will we be found demoting God to a lessened
image of the Creation and neither will we
be found relegating God exclusively to some
amorphous aetherial quality that simply
hangs on the air like a mist.
where God, may, in part, have all such
qualities and attributes, which, when
taken by themselves, would not be a
complete portrait of God.
that is, God may very well be said to have
form and fully 'resemble' -things- which
we can, in fact, see and hear and taste
and smell and touch.
and that God -can- and -does-
see and hear and taste and
smell and touch.
God is aware
God is aware if God
God is -aware- of all things
including that which is -not- God
God is not just some pipeline
of amenities in to which you
may tap, even if God -is- a
pipeline of amenities into
which you -must- tap.
just remember Jesus, and how he felt
a 'virtue'[dunamis] flow from him when
a woman who was beleaguered by a discharge
touched his garment. [Luke 8:43-48]
[a dunamis is a sort of ability capability
power influence type of thing that is
translated as 'virtue' in some instances]
in that instance, that woman used a
belief to tap in to a 'virtue' that was
operating thru Jesus, the man, but that
Jesus stopped and pursued her so as
to reckon the personal identification
of the source of that 'virtue'
she saw that she had been noticed and
came trembling to Jesus and he made
very certain that she knew exactly
what happened and how it happened.
and in certain respects, you may be able
to tap into God's 'virtues' but you can
be sure that God's Presence will not be
off in the distance oblivious to your existance.
and/or that you will be able to tap
into the Holy Spirit like Simon [Acts 8:9-25]
the sorcerer who wanted to buy it from
the apostles so as to use it in the
furtherance of his own ends.
point being, God may not necessarily
have to be the sole -directing- influence
of God's own 'virtues' in that, -you- have
access to that Faith which carries curative
emblems, but also, that you won't be able
to mock God by suggesting that God is impersonal.
---
Ezekiel 47:9
And it shall be that every living thing
that moves, wherever the rivers go, will
live. There will be a very great multitude
of fish, because these waters go there;
for they will be healed, and everything
will live wherever the river goes.
Isaiah 58:8
Then your light shall break forth like
the morning, Your healing shall spring
forth speedily, And your righteousness
shall go before you; The glory of YHWH
shall be your rear guard.
Psalm 67:1-3
God be merciful unto us, and bless us;
and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah.
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy
saving health among all nations. Let the
people praise thee, O God; let all
the people praise thee.
---
# just remember, we don't
# "anthropomorphize" God,
# no, we 'deomorphize' human beings,
# that is, we reckon that human beings
# have characteristic potentials 'like'
# God and that these are the traits
# which are to be magnified.
aside from the indwelling of
the Holy Spirit, one is not
a "christian" at all.
the indwelling -is- that substantial
Faith which is Christ's own Faith which
is given to human beings, and is not
simply some academic exercise nor
the product of man's own accomplishings.
the "charisms" are the
"gifts" of the Holy Spirit.
based on two things,
which are these;
"Jesus ascended into the
heavenly places and gave
gifts to human beings"
and
[Jesus speaking]
"I will not leave you without comfort"
one may examine themself and determine
whether they are, indeed, a "christian"
as i said, the charisms are the gifts,
and the gifts are given by Christ.
and the gifts provide the essential
knowledge of God which is comforting
so that you can be assured in your
own mind that God exists and is
actively concerned with your life.
alright, then there's the notion of
"evidence" and this evidence is twofold,
the ethereal and inexplicable, and
the tangible and substantial.
it's funny, because the charisms play
a sort of intermediary role between
the intangible Comfort of the Holy Spirit
and the substantial fruit bearing
offspring of the Presence.
ok, so fine, here are a few of the manners
that human beings are born with naturally,
having inherited them directly from our
progenitors, 'Adam and Eve.'
and by the way, these things are at
enmity to God, and can be likened
as "fruit" of the 'sin consciousness'
and the 'self in want'
here's a few;
quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness,
slander, gossip, conceit, disorder,
fornication, impurity, licentiousness,
idolatry, drug abuse, enmity, strife,
dissension, party spirit, envy,
drunkenness, carousing and the like.
this sort of behavior and attitude
applies to all human beings living
aside of God's Presence, and as no
human being, aside from Jesus, is
born the first time from their mother
as also "begotten of God" we can say
that this applies to all human beings.
[right here is where the bits with the
diagrams about Adam and the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil some of those
related texts and the bits about Jesus
and YHWH would fit in case those questions
re-arise and it seems as if i haven't
addressed them here and now]
anyway;
two things: just saying to yourself,
"my conscience does not bother me about
them" and "oh, that's not me" won't
make them go away, but they do stand
in your way to a clear vision of God,
and so, -if- you -want- to draw nearer
to God and gain and maintain a clear
vision of God, these must decrease
while the following bits must increase,
and so, as we draw nearer to God and God
draws nearer to us, we replace that stuff
which doesn't profit, with attitudes and
actions that were God's intention for us
to walk in in the first place.
may take some time, so, the sooner
you get started, the better as the
more ingrained -that- stuff becomes,
the more difficult it wil be to clean
it away.
miracles happen, but you're likely to
carry around memories of the old man
and you may just give up because
things hurt, and so, if you get
on your way early you can use that
gungho youthful exuberance to get
yourself off to a flying start,
Christ willing and Christ is willing.
i may look at this little
detail, in more depth, later,
if i haven't already.
anyway;
the 'fruit' of the Spirit:
love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self-control;
against -these- behaviors and attitudes,
there is no law, and when it comes down
to it, as far as character traits are
concerned, -these- are by far the
Superior traits and to be desired.
those other attitudes -are- the easy
way out and lead you directly to ruin.
alright, so now we've taken up our cross
and put away that tired old man who was
born at enmity to God thru Adam, and
replaced him with a new creature in Christ.
now we can start to unwrap and make use
of some of the Presents that the Presence
has offered to me.
and here is a listing of gifts of the Spirit.
the utterance of wisdom,
the utterance of knowledge
faith by the same Spirit,
gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
working of miracles,
prophecy, speaking the truth
the ability to distinguish between spirits,
various kinds of tongues,
the interpretation of tongues.
and these are the charisms.
and they most certainly are an outward
substantial show of an inexplicable
supernatural inward affair.
trust in Christ to bring the good work
that Christ began to fruition, and
Christ will not let you down.
here's a few scrittures;
[yes, scrittures]
1 Corinthians 12:1-11
Galatians 5:13-26
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Hebrews 2:4
i've probably mentioned this before
but maybe only i heard it, it was sort
of along the lines of human beings,
who are transformed in the likeness
and Image of God thru Christ,
revitalizing the universe.
in a way, you get to be "like Christ"
in a very real manner and you are granted
planets by The Almighty and it's your
assignment to refurbish them and make
them live again and maybe even grow a
crop of material human beings that may
just opt for the Tree of Life without
ever going thru all that knowledge
of good and evil bit.
maybe that fervent heat which will melt
away the elements and formulate the basis
for a new heaven and earth will come,
in part, at our hands, thru Christ
with Christ for Christ and by Christ.
always remembering that those "twinklings"
of an eye can be experienced on more than
one level, and maybe one of those levels is
is like a frame you don't even see, and one
of those levels is like slow motion.
so, something could happen in a twinkling
of an eye and you still see your entire
life flash before your eyes.
there are a few different ways
to look at this sort of thing,
but compare this to the
parable of the "talents"
---
Matthew 25:14-21
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a man
traveling to a far country, who called his
own servants and delivered his goods to them.
before he went on his journey, he gave one
servant five talents, that servant went
and traded with them, and made another
five talents.
After a long time the lord of those
servants came and settled accounts
with his them.
"So he who had received five talents
came and brought five other talents,
saying, "Lord, you delivered to me
five talents; look, I have gained
five more talents besides them.'
His lord said to him, "Well done,
good and faithful servant; you were
faithful over a few things, I will
make you ruler over many things.
Enter into the joy of your lord.'
---
at any rate, showing yourself as
faithful in matters pertaining to
this world is value.
and in "the world to come" untold,
unseen, unimagined magnificence
and responsibility.
be nice to yourself, yourselves
and your things here and now,
and we can enter in to
the Joy of God.
God is The Creator
we may very well be
entering in to -that- Joy.
remember;
---
Job 38:4,7
Where were you when I laid the
foundations of the earth?...
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Declare, if you have understanding....
---
see, the Creation was a Joyous event.
what if you were given the
ability to breathe life
into a planet?
what sort of "God" would -you- be?
well, one thing we figure for sure
is that you will never -get- that
ability outside of Faith and Unity
in God's Presence.
just something to think about.
sometimes, you may find, the thought
of such a tremendous -responsibility-
is, in itself, humbling.
greedy and fearful is not value.
Unity of God's presence in Christ is value.
the Resurrection is value.
there is no fear in the Resurrection.
only Love
.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: God is Aware |
07 Dec 2003 10:19:30 AM |
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This concerns a somewhat allegorical
look at "baptism" and resurrection,
where baptism is a total 'immersion'
and resurrection is a rising up.
it centers around the written
words known as Holy Scriptures.
sort of like becoming immersed in the writings,
and they kill you, and as you progress they raise
you back up from that death, and then you sort
of walk on top of them for the rest of your life.
the source of Living Waters
set these aside for your benefit.
so, you dip yourselves in these waters,
and they can help to kill that aspect
of you that is contrary to God.
and as The Spirit leads you into
newness of Life, cleansing your
consciousness of the contrary
attitudes towards God, the words
will also assist you in imprinting
Life onto your mind.
just remember,
The Spirit and The Word
walk hand in hand.
we're already aware of the notion of
the Spiritual Indwelling putting you
to death and raising you in newness of
Life to be seated at the Right Hand of God
in the heavenly places.
and like I pointed out somewhere before,
Jesus takes the baptism, he goes down
under the water, the water of death,
and then he never tastes death again,
and he strides atop that water
from thereafter.
of course, it is somewhat symbolic,
albeit, if there are "elemental spirits"
meaning, if the wind and the rain and the
fire are possessed by elemental spirits
of nature, then surely Jesus who was in
possession of the fullness of Deity bodily,
was entirely in command of even these
elemental spirits of nature, and could
therefore use his effective Faith
to actually walk atop water.
but we see that he does stand in boats
on the seashore from time to time.
but anyway, yes, the "new birth" or
"the begettal from above" is of prime
importance, as it provides that initial
glimpse into the death burial and
resurrection of Christ, but one should
not neglect this other form of baptism
which i am trying to point out to you here.
when I suggest that one can "walk atop the waters"
of those writings, well, obviously i'm not saying
that you can simply cast them aside as empty and
no longer necessary after you feel that you have
grown to a stature in Christ where you feel
confidant in your walk towards God,
but the complete immersion in Spirit and Word
will well up from within, and you will have
that fountain of Living Waters inside of
you as a primary source of Life from God.
that Unity of Word and Spirit.
and this will produce a Truth
in you as you -are- your word.
and that's what you want.
God -is- this sort of situation,
no conflict, no contradiction
self consistent and at peace.
human beings tend towards that prison of
cynical pragmatism which is schismatic and
at war with itself, in that the body is
placing undue demands for governance of
the total being over top of the mind
which is weakened to the point of death
in the absence of God's own Spiritual Depth.
and so, the body leads -you- down the road
to ruin in that it seeks to monopolize your
attitudes exclusively towards it's own rather
selfish needs, and in such a manner that
is -prone- to warfare.
you want your mind aligned with God
and your body aligned with your mind.
and the bible is a very definite
help in that respect, in that it
-is- an 'excellance' upon which
you should dwell.
as opposed to dwelling on dead works
and dead issues which only serve to
provide you with an engraved
invitation to Sheol.
let the great fish spit you out on shore.
what you don't want is for 'each other'
to be biting and pulling 'each other' down
and then saying that it's normal to be;
"well, i'm human and no one is perfect
so lets all kill each other because
there's no better person in the world
than all of us ripping each other's
throats out"
that's a load of bull and a cop out
and self defeating and the way the
"world" convinces itself that it's
'ok' to be a rotten scoundrel.
which is where you might want to fit
in some sort of ability to properly
encourage and praise 'each other'
without that becoming just another
occasion for the flesh to become
puffed up with itself,
and also would make way for 'each other'
assisting in the identification of sore
spots and pointing those out in hopes
that those things are put to death and
-not- to murder each other's growth
in the Spirit.
praise and rebuke from the flesh is
self motivated, and the flesh is
subject to distortions.
praise and rebuke from the Spirit is God
motivated, and the Spirit of God has that
Image of goodly perfection in Christ.
Christ is your goal and aim -even-
if the final firing which burns away
the flesh in your ultimate Glorification
in likeness to Christ is an event you see
from a distance while in the flesh.
if your 'peer group' isn't operating
along these sorts of lines, split.
the world will like to put you down
so that you can be mired in the same
swamp it is mired in and not because
it is so much better or more admirable
than you are. cuz it ain't.
Christ is your ultimate source
of consolation anyway.
better a small portion with God
than all you can eat and a one
way ticket to destruction.
and so, dieing and being raised
in newness is a thing in which
-you- are constantly engaged.
don't find yourself sitting there
saying you know all that and you've
heard it all before because you don't
know that ultimate Glorification.
Jesus Christ knows that,
and we see Jesus.
we are known by -God-.
when we see Jesus as Jesus sees
Jesus then we can come around
to saying we know something.
now in part then in full.
so, while we would never say that
you -can't- know God -at all-
we simply agree that this knowledge
is not as intimate as it will be
upon ultimate Glorification
which is not and never to be taken
as some sort of excuse to render up
occasion to the flesh to become mired
in the "well nobody's perfect" routine
which spirals quickly into the
"everyone is corrupted" reality.
press on so as to win
always knowing the Christ
-has- the victory sealed up.
in all honesty, this is for your good.
take it up in your hands
and declare it to be yours.
nothing -can- take it away
from you so don't put it down.
yes, you can hear of God and Christ and
believe upon the value of Christ's empty tomb
and come to some personal conclusion that
you'd like to know of Jesus and draw close
to God and resolve to be a nice person and
set out to -do- things that you feel would
be acceptibly appropriate -to- God, and not
anyone would fault you for this.
but, for those who like likenesses,
that would be like putting a lampshade
on your head and screwing lightbulbs
into your ears and never plugging
yourself into the socket.
assuming, of course, that you would be a lamp.
no, i'm not making light of the situation.
but what is sort of funny is that you
-may- even accomplish some sort of good
deeds with the lampshade on your head
and the bulbs in your ears and -still-
Christ doesn't -know- _you_.
remember your -aren't- an electric
lightbulb, that's just a likeness.
but you can -look- like a lamp and even
function somewhat as a lamp functions,
afterall, in some homes, lamps are more
for decoration than for actual
luminating effects.
-anyway- -we- don't -want- Jesus to say;
"i never knew you"
-we- want Jesus to say;
"well done, good and faithful human being"
and, in order for Jesus to offer
such praise that comes from God,
you have to burn with the
Zeal of God's own Presence.
-ask- God for God's Spirit, plead with
God for more of God's Own Faith, declare
this to be yours, take it up in your
hands and make use of it.
if you -have- oil in your jars
ask and plead for more
declare an open flame
you are not to be a cardboard cut-out.
this is how God knows God's people.
let the Zeal for God's house,
whose home -you- are, consume -you-.
so, all i'm saying is,
don't look around
and say;
"well, i feel like i'm a christian and i do
nice things so i'm sure of a ticket to the
last roundup but this Holy Spirit thing remains
aloof and mysterious to me, we don't do things
like that in my church"
God d o e s n 't k n o w you
this is the way you start to drift away from
your first love and from the bible and start
concentrating on bake sales and bingo and denigrating
the very blood of Christ which saves you.
so why do you keep the name?
if all you are is a social organization
why maintain that you are Christ's Church?
for tax purposes?
that's just you taking the name of God
upon yourself in a vain manner and all
who do this sort of thing will not
go without a reckoning.
if you've abandoned Christ
for Baal and Astarte which are material slavery
ownership fame and fortune, then please, drop
the name of Christ from your churches for your
own good, because you will eat a major pile
of unpalatable fecal matter in the long run
if you persist in taking God's name upon
yourself in a vain manner.
if you mean to worship matter and the
purely material, make no claims that
you have any connection with Christ.
and aside from The Holy Spirit
dwelling in your houses,
you have no God.
no more pretend
the Truth is burning in your midst.
aside from this intimate marriage of
your understanding and God's own Spirit.
yes, of course you can eat
cupcakes and take a spouse,
but -we- want some semblance of a full
-human- potential to become apparent
and -not- dreams of lolling on clouds
because we -deserve- to lay down our hammers.
we will have rest
we will have peace
God is always at work
let us enter in to that work
and then that peace that surpasses
all understanding will guard our
hearts and minds and make us free.
remembering that it's a dangerous thing
to take the Name of God upon yourself
in a vain manner.
God's visits the name of God.
and there you are worshipping
the material totem pole, and
even going so far as to etch
the Name of God upon your
material totem.
that's not just playing with Fire
that's -asking- for all your
'sins' to be regarded as debt.
and if all that tonnage of ill fame
falls upon your head in the
twinkling of an eye,
a resounding crash will be heard.
thank you Jesus for dealing
with me in an ongoing basis.
i have no ton of bricks hanging over my head.
but someone may,
and i realize that it will be
no pleasure for me nor you nor
anyone else when the restraints
to recompense are severed.
still, you are to be dreaded.
albeit, there is nothing i can lose
to Fire that i will be the sorry for.
my Treasures -are- in your Name.
thank you Jesus.
God isn't robbing -me- of
a will, God is Gifting
me a will.
oh, and let's never accuse God
of being envious as if God
covets anything you have.
so, saying God is 'jealous' is
such a poor rendering it should
make your eyes bleed.
no, God is Zealous.
an all consuming passion for
that Name which will reside
where God declares it.
and with the Name comes The Presence.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Identified with Christ |
07 Dec 2003 10:20:37 AM |
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In Light of Christ we may
make statements like this;
"God chooses to overlook my shortfall."
so, God knows i fall short
and pulls me aside and says;
"I know you fall short, and I choose
not to recognize this in you"
now, how would you act?
returning God's favor or
misusing your life ever
more extremely?
now, we know that there was nothing
i did to earn God's choice not
to see me as short of God's Glory.
and likewise, there's nothing i may
do to force God to continue to see
me as not short of God's Glory.
it wasn't a thing i did in the first place,
so, there's nothing i can do to keep
God seeing me as not short of God's Glory.
now, after Adam and before Christ,
God had no choice but to see all
people as short of God's Glory.
"God had no choice?"
well, just remember, God is a God of
God's Word, and cannot simply tresspass
across God's own unretractible authority.
-that- would be a 'lie'
and God can not lie,
but, God can address the ball where
it lies and set things on the road
back to wellness and uprightness
and still maintain Justice.
essentially, God had declared a form
of war against humanity because of
that first human's error.
and in this state of warfare,
God had no choice but to -see-
all as short of God's Glory.
and even sharpen the view, of
man as short, thru The Law.
remember, The Man and The Woman were both naked
and God did not -view- them as naked, and they felt
nothing untoward about being naked.
even though God is -clothed- in Majesty
and Righteousness and Might, among
other things.
but now, thru Christ,
God has that choice again.
God can choose to see me as
not short of God's Glory.
and God does this by strictly identifying
-me- with Christ and Christ's Crucifixion.
of course me and the law and the accuser
are still trying our hardest to remind
God of my shortfall.
but, no matter how much i try to remind
God of how short i fall, God has still
chosen not to see me as short of God's Glory.
God has declared peace with
me from God's point of view.
and all I have to do is recognize
this and accept it and walk in it.
God gives this revelation,
and our brother Paul asks us;
knowing this, don't you think it's
the very least you can do to return
the favor and seek to walk in the light?
sure fine, and also, stop trying
to remind God of how short you fall.
walking in the light makes
you look ten feet tall.
again; "God chooses to overlook my shortfall"
fine, so i'm not seen as short of God's Glory.
it's not only within my reach, but God's
sees me that way already, thru Christ.
# now, we know that there was nothing
# i did to earn God's choice not
# to see me as short of God's Glory.
great, so i can't run around waving my flag
in people's faces or in God's face screaming
"I am so great" at the top of my lungs.
# and likewise, there's nothing i may
# do to force God to continue to see
# me as not short of God's Glory.
God -declares- me God's righteousness
and I -become- that thing.
see, we'd rather that the light
didn't stop at exposing my shortfall.
we'd rather that the light
lead me into a unity with God.
apparently, your own conscience
testifies to you as to your shortfall.
and, identifying yourself as short
of God's Glory can keep you bound
in shortfall, but God lifts you up
by God's declaration of rightness.
You -are- the righteousness of God.
You -are- a letter crafted by God.
just pick up your mat and walk.
yes, of course we don't
-deny- the blood of Christ.
that gives God the power and ability
to see and declare me as right and correct.
we have peace and i can pursue peace.
"gives God power and ability?"
and again, just remember, God is a God of
God's Word, and cannot simply tresspass
across God's own unretractible authority.
-that- would be a 'lie'
and God can not lie,
but, God can address the ball where
it lies and set things on the road
back to wellness and uprightness
and Justice.
see, cuz, remember,
God has that ability to;
"declare a thing that is not as though it is"
and then that thing -is-
Just like that centurion seeking a healing
for someone in his family, who said to Jesus,
"you don't have to come to my house,
just say the word and it will be done"
and God is declaring me right with God
thru Christ. and this same would be true
for anyone so aligned with Christ.
you -are- the righteousness of
God because God said so.
now, -become- what you are
and were always meant to be.
we have some fine white linens
with your name on'em. [a figure]
and one other thing;
this is part of another problem;
-we- set up a sliding scale of non-specific
criteria for the positive proof of love,
all the while holding an unmovable set
of criteria for the negative proof of love.
you know, like, "if you love
me you'll do such and such"
only the "such and such" just keeps
expanding to things that are
never suitably met.
"if you love me, you'll roll around
in a puddle of mud,.. if you love me,
you'll eat three worms and six razor
blades" etc.etc.etc.etc.etc."
"if you steal from me, i know right
off that you don't love me and now
you -can not- love me."
and this is sort of what the law addresses.
it sets down some of that criteria
that people will readily view
as -not- love.
and it makes some attempt at pointing
in the direction of behaviors that can
be construed as those stemming from
a loving attitude.
but we see how people can abuse the
-semblance- of loving bahaviors as a
front for the same old appeasement
of the Idolatry of Self.
and so, while this tendency towards a
sliding scale of positive attribution
is, apparently, doomed to failure in
-proving- love, the negative aspect
is able to be met with a single infraction.
meaning, we can never meet with approval
by this sliding set of criteria for
a positive proof of love.
and so, you'll just have to trust me.
and believe that hope can never be betrayed.
now, they say that patience leads
to perserverance and perserverance
leads to hope.
and so, if love can not be sufficiently proved,
faith and hope are the primary attributes that
will sufficiently do away with the
need for such proof.
now, Jesus suggests that we even go so
far as to allow ourselves to be defrauded.
counterintuitive, yes, but what this does do,
is remove the need for proof from the
outward to that of an inward show.
meaning, seeing that this thing called love
may never be sufficiently proven based on
a sliding set of criteria that may never be met,
the hope that such a thing exists,
remains as the criterion that
needs no such proof.
and so, it will remain your love,
alone, that can prove another's.
simply put, you'll just have to trust me.
and realize that holding firm to a sliding
set of unmeetable criteria, will only prove
to disintegrate the trust of an other.
what is all this babbling about?
you want proof?
eventually, it will be based
upon your own implacable Hope.
a thing which, no doubt,
will not come easily.
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