| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Mike" |
| Date: |
11 Jun 2005 11:37:06 AM |
| Object: |
Inconsistancy? Help. |
I have found an apparent contradiction and I would love for someone to
show me why it is not. The story is of Joseph being sold into slavery
in Egypt. But let me back up a bit and set the stage. Verses taken
from the NASB.
***
Gen 16:15 So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his
son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael.
Gen 25:1 Now Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah.
Gen 25:2 She bore to him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and
Ishbak and Shuah.
***
As we are all aware Abram and Abraham are the same person. The Bible
will then call descendants of specific people by a clan name. An
example the descendants of Ishmael are called the Ishmaelites, the
descendants of Midian are the Midianites.
On to the question at hand. Genesis 37
I will paraphrase the first part of the story. Joseph is sent out by
his father Israel to find his brothers. His brothers have taken a
disliking to him. When he comes upon them, they through him in a pit
and are planning what to do with him as they eat lunch.
***
Gen 37:28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled him up
and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for
twenty shekels of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.
***
So the result of this verse is that the Midianites sell him to the
Ishmaelites.
***
Gen 37:36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold him in Egypt to Potiphar,
Pharaoh's officer, the captain of the bodyguard.
***
The result of this verse is that the Midianites sell him to an Egyptian.
I would appreciate any ideas on how this would not be a contradiction.
Mike
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Inconsistancy? Help. |
11 Jun 2005 04:24:36 PM |
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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:37:06 -0700, Mike
<ku_coyoteNO@SPAMMERSyahoo.com> spake thusly:
On to the question at hand. Genesis 37
I will paraphrase the first part of the story. Joseph is sent out by
his father Israel to find his brothers. His brothers have taken a
disliking to him. When he comes upon them, they through him in a pit
and are planning what to do with him as they eat lunch.
***
Gen 37:28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled him up
and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for
twenty shekels of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.
***
So the result of this verse is that the Midianites sell him to the
Ishmaelites.
***
Gen 37:36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold him in Egypt to Potiphar,
Pharaoh's officer, the captain of the bodyguard.
***
The result of this verse is that the Midianites sell him to an Egyptian.
I would appreciate any ideas on how this would not be a contradiction.
That doesn't have to be the conclusion. There is more
than one possible explanation there. You should also
look at Genesis 39:1...
"And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and
Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the
guard, an Egyptian, bought him of the hands
of the Ishmaelites, which had brought him
down thither."
They were obviously one and the same people
to Moses and he mixes their names as no big
deal, knowing the readers would understand that.
They may also have just been traveling together.
It was probably a confederation of tribes that is
referred to, by "Medianites". I've never looked
into it, but to draw the conclusion that it must
be a contradiction, without any research at all,
seems ridiculous to me.
Another way of looking at it, is to understand
that the Bible does not always detail events
and sometimes merely speaks of effect and
then details it.
For example, if it were two separate tribes,
we see that in the end, Joseph ends up being
sold into Egypt. So, the Midianites buy him
and sell him to the Ishmaelites, who actually
sold him to Egypt, but the Midianites are the
reason that he ended up being sold into Egypt.
Just as genealogies sometimes skip a generation
in the Bible, so might this be.
As I said though, it seems that this was
a confederation of tribes. Some translations
also have it as, "Midianitish". Just some thoughts.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
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| User: "Mike" |
|
| Title: Re: Inconsistancy? Help. |
11 Jun 2005 10:24:46 PM |
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That doesn't have to be the conclusion. There is more
than one possible explanation there. You should also
look at Genesis 39:1...
"And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and
Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the
guard, an Egyptian, bought him of the hands
of the Ishmaelites, which had brought him
down thither."
They were obviously one and the same people
to Moses and he mixes their names as no big
deal, knowing the readers would understand that.
They may also have just been traveling together.
It was probably a confederation of tribes that is
referred to, by "Medianites". I've never looked
into it, but to draw the conclusion that it must
be a contradiction, without any research at all,
seems ridiculous to me.
Another way of looking at it, is to understand
that the Bible does not always detail events
and sometimes merely speaks of effect and
then details it.
For example, if it were two separate tribes,
we see that in the end, Joseph ends up being
sold into Egypt. So, the Midianites buy him
and sell him to the Ishmaelites, who actually
sold him to Egypt, but the Midianites are the
reason that he ended up being sold into Egypt.
Just as genealogies sometimes skip a generation
in the Bible, so might this be.
As I said though, it seems that this was
a confederation of tribes. Some translations
also have it as, "Midianitish". Just some thoughts.
Your quote of Gen 39:1 just adds to the confusion for me. So we have a
statement that the Midianites sell him to Potiphar, and we have a
statement that the Ishmaelites sell him to Potiphar. The only way that
both of these statements are true is if as you state that Moses
considers them to be one and the same people.
If he does see them as the same people, why does he identify their
progenitors as separate individuals (half bothers). Ishmael is a son of
Abram by Hagar (Gen 16:15). Midian is a son of Abraham by Keturah (Gen
26:1,2). (As we know Abram and Abraham are the same person.)
Moses identifies Ishmael as having a number of sons. (Gen 25:13-15)
"And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names,
according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and
Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar,
and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
Moses identifies Midian as having several sons. Gen 25:4 "And the sons
of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All
these were the children of Keturah."
To take this a step further, in Exodus, Moses flees the pharaoh to the
land of Midian (Exo 2:15,16, Exo 3:1, Exo 4:19) where he marries
Jethro's (a Midian priest) daughter, Zipporah.
After clearly identifying the separateness of the generations of Ishmael
and Midian, would he really think of them as the same peoples?
Would he really think of them as the same peoples when he specifically
states in Gen 37:28 "Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they
pulled him up and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the
Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver."
Which translations have "Midianitish" for these passages? I have looked
through quite a number and can't find one.
One last thing, you make the statement "to draw the conclusion that it
must be a contradiction, without any research at all, seems ridiculous
to me." I wish to make clear that I am not claiming that it is a
contradiction. I stated that I have found an apparent contradiction and
asked for explanations why it would not be. I have done quite a bit of
research on this and have not drawn any conclusions as of yet.
Mike
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Inconsistancy? Help. |
11 Jun 2005 11:35:03 PM |
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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:24:46 -0700, Mike
<ku_coyoteNO@SPAMMERSyahoo.com> spake thusly:
That doesn't have to be the conclusion. There is more
than one possible explanation there. You should also
look at Genesis 39:1...
"And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and
Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the
guard, an Egyptian, bought him of the hands
of the Ishmaelites, which had brought him
down thither."
They were obviously one and the same people
to Moses and he mixes their names as no big
deal, knowing the readers would understand that.
They may also have just been traveling together.
It was probably a confederation of tribes that is
referred to, by "Medianites". I've never looked
into it, but to draw the conclusion that it must
be a contradiction, without any research at all,
seems ridiculous to me.
Another way of looking at it, is to understand
that the Bible does not always detail events
and sometimes merely speaks of effect and
then details it.
For example, if it were two separate tribes,
we see that in the end, Joseph ends up being
sold into Egypt. So, the Midianites buy him
and sell him to the Ishmaelites, who actually
sold him to Egypt, but the Midianites are the
reason that he ended up being sold into Egypt.
Just as genealogies sometimes skip a generation
in the Bible, so might this be.
As I said though, it seems that this was
a confederation of tribes. Some translations
also have it as, "Midianitish". Just some thoughts.
Your quote of Gen 39:1 just adds to the confusion for me. So we have a
statement that the Midianites sell him to Potiphar, and we have a
statement that the Ishmaelites sell him to Potiphar. The only way that
both of these statements are true is if as you state that Moses
considers them to be one and the same people.
Or, as I said, it is skipping the middle man in one of
the statements. Reread what I wrote carefully.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: Inconsistancy? Help. |
12 Jun 2005 02:32:20 PM |
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The Bibles are loaded with myths, folklore, legends, metaphors and
contradictions. Your are never going to obtain true "facts" from the Bibles.
They are copies of copies made by hundreds of copiers over a period of about
3,000 years. The writings in the Bibles were made 1500 and more years before
the invention of the printing press. There are NO
ORIGINALS in existence.
"Mike" <ku_coyoteNO@SPAMMERSyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11am4phqcpb3401@corp.supernews.com...
I have found an apparent contradiction and I would love for someone to
show me why it is not. The story is of Joseph being sold into slavery
in Egypt. But let me back up a bit and set the stage. Verses taken
from the NASB.
***
Gen 16:15 So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his
son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael.
Gen 25:1 Now Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah.
Gen 25:2 She bore to him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and
Ishbak and Shuah.
***
As we are all aware Abram and Abraham are the same person. The Bible
will then call descendants of specific people by a clan name. An
example the descendants of Ishmael are called the Ishmaelites, the
descendants of Midian are the Midianites.
On to the question at hand. Genesis 37
I will paraphrase the first part of the story. Joseph is sent out by
his father Israel to find his brothers. His brothers have taken a
disliking to him. When he comes upon them, they through him in a pit
and are planning what to do with him as they eat lunch.
***
Gen 37:28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled him up
and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for
twenty shekels of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.
***
So the result of this verse is that the Midianites sell him to the
Ishmaelites.
***
Gen 37:36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold him in Egypt to Potiphar,
Pharaoh's officer, the captain of the bodyguard.
***
The result of this verse is that the Midianites sell him to an Egyptian.
I would appreciate any ideas on how this would not be a contradiction.
Mike
.
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