Religions > Bible > Is Carl McCasky Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People?
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Bible Bob" |
| Date: |
27 Dec 2007 03:33:18 PM |
| Object: |
Is Carl McCasky Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
I am not a prophet and do not have the God given authority to call
Carl McCasky a heretik. God through Jesus Christ through Paul gave
that authority to a prophet by the name of Titus - no one else named
in the Scriptures was specifically given authority to do so. However,
it would be reasonable to assume that since the authority was
transfered to Titus via Paul the Apostle; then an Apostle or Prophet
would have authority to declare a peson a heretic. There is nothing
in the Scriptures that authorizes lay people; or pastors, or
evangelists or teachers to make such a determination about a child of
God.
Speaking specifically to Titus, God said:
Tit 3:10-11 KJV
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition
reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being
condemned of himself.
Over the past several days Carl McCasky has been attacking
non-Christians using the word of God deceitfully. He has been
corrected several times; but refuses to accept the admonitions and
refuses to repent of his evil behavior towards those whom God "may"
have chosen to be children of God.
A primary responsibility of every Christian is to serve the Lord Jesus
Christ as an ambassador with the goal of reconciling men to God. To
do this God gave us both the word of reconcilation and the ministry of
reconcilation. It is by speaking the truth in love to unbelievers
that unbeleivers become saved. Faith cometh by hearing the word of
God. The word of God is not the word of God unless it is rigjtly
divided. Therefore, faith cometh by hearing the rightly divided word
of truth.
2Co 5:17-20 KJV
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old
things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by
Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto
himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed
unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech
you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Do you see any name calling targeting the un-reconciled in Paul's
words; or do you see the word "beseech?" We are admonished to
overcome evil with God and we are told that it is the goodness of God
that leadeth men to repentance.
Rom 12:21 KJV
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
That is the last verse from the twelfth chapter of Romans where the
topic is the renewed mind and and reasonable service. Those whose
minds are being renewed will overcome evil with good. Theose who try
to overcome evil with evil are not manifesting reneewed mind or
reasonable service.
Rom 2:1-5 KJV
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that
judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;
for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth
against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such
things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of
God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and
longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to
repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto
thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous
judgment of God;
Romans two continues the topic from chapter one concerning generic men
and women who commit idolatry, etc. The word "Therefore" in 2:1
refers back to the preceding verses. This is the most basic of
Christians doctrines. A person that judges andother while doing the
same thing is not only a hypocrite but despises the richness of God's
goodness, etc.
Today, Carl posted a post titled "Fools and Liars" in which be proved
himself to be a fool and a liar while calling others fools and liars.
Below is what he wrote. He opens by asking how God addresses fools
and liars in the context of unbelievers. God does not speak directly
to unbelievers except by prophets, ambassadors, angels, or some form
of phenomena because God is spirit and does not communicate directly
with the flesh. The natural man cannot communicate with God because
he does not have the spirit of God in him or upon him. Without that
spiritual connection God cannot communicate directly with man. Again,
there are cases where God communicated with unbelievers, but in every
case it was via a prophet, ambassador, a manifestation of the spirit,
an angel, or some form of phenomena. For Carl to alledge that God
communicates with unbelievers vioates one of the most basic tenants of
Christianity and promotes the false doctrine that natural man does not
need to be saved to communicate with God (Yes, God can hear natural
man; but natural man cannot hear God). Natural man can see the
manifestations of God; but not God.
Carl wrote the following hate post aimed at unbelievers:
Carl wrote:
How does God address fools and liars (ex. - atheists, heretics,
agnostics, mockers of God)? Read the following examples:
BB offers:
Carl cites passages from Psalms and Proverbs attemptinmg to deceive
unbelievers into thinkinmg that those verses are wrtitten to them.
That is a blatant misrepresentation and a deliberate wrong dividing of
the word of truth. Every one of the versers addresses Israel; not
Gentiles which is what atheists, agnostics, and the like would be.
Psalm 14:1, for example, was written by David the man of God to the
Chief Musician of Israel; not to unbelievers. The fools it speaks
about are people raised as Jews who were taught the word of God but
refused to believe it. Granted, an atheist or agnostic might be an
outoffellowshoip Jew or Christian; but we have to assume that they are
unbelievers until we learn otherwise. Carl was admonished several
times that he was wrongly dividing the word of truth. Carl was
admonished that he was using the word of God deceitfully. Yet Carl
refused to heed the admonitions. Rather than repent of his evil
behavior, he escalated it. He was admonished for wrongly dividing the
word of truth to "sheblew" on six occassions. Attacking one
unbeliever was not sufficent; he attacked unbelievers in general. That
is not the love of God. It is not loving to strike out at someone you
do not even know.
To make matters worse, Carl showed his ignorance of the Scriptures by
putting atheists, agnostics, hereticks, and mockers of God in the same
class. A heretick is not in the same class with atheists and
agnostics because a heretick is a person who has departed from the
faith. It is a believer that is doing bad things; just like Carl is
doing. Carl, apparently thinks himself very righteous for posting
such foolishness and that points to a lack of a sound spiritual mind.
Tit 3:10-11 KJV
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition
reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being
condemned of himself.
Carl is behaving like a heretick in that he has been admonished and
shown from the word of God that his behavior is wrong on more than one
occassion; yet he continues to behave the same way. He is too
arrogant to admit wrong doing, to arrogant to repent of wrong behavior
and that is proof that he is subverted and sinneth being condemned of
himself. He condemned his ownself by calling people fools and liars
while lying and behaving like a fool.
Carl will not listen to me because his pride and arrogance prevent him
from doing so. He worships men gods in lieuf of God and since I am
not John MacArthur or Billy Graham; he will not listen to me. But he
might listen to one of your who are Trinitarian. You would be doing
God and the body of Christ and Carl a favor by using your
ambassadorship to reconcile Carl to God. Despite his wrong behavior
over the past year, Carl does have potential and could be a great
assett to Christ once he decides to serve Chrsit in lieu of the men he
worships.
Carl wrote:
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their
ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the
world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the
brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion.
The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no knowledge;
those
may truly be said to know nothing that do not know God, v. 4. (from
Matthew
Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a
fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights
in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult.
(NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of
fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly.
(NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own
opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than
both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle,
you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools.
This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of
fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
Many more verses in scripture show clearly that God does not think
highly of
those whom He considers fools such as atheists, heretics, agnostic,
mockers
of God and the like. And He also makes it clear that we should not
answer to
their folly since they are fools. So I encourage my Christian brethren
to
not be lured into pointless and vain arguments and discussions with
them for
to do so is to lower yourself to their low level and behave in a
foolish
manner as well. Leave them be and turn to scripture and prayers for
them
instead.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
.
|
|
| User: " ::: good news :::" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
27 Dec 2007 04:41:07 PM |
|
|
Bible Bob,
What exactly was Carl's heresy in your opinion?
Since when has posting Scripture become heresy?
And why did you use his full name in the subject line while you yourself
come along as anonymous as "Bible Bob"?
In how far does your post here differ from an ad hominem attack on a
Christian?
::: vera :::
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
In news:2k38n3h2bkcovfhsag5o1hmocaena87mmu@4ax.com,
Bible Bob <biblebob@saintly.com> typed:
I am not a prophet and do not have the God given authority to call
Carl [snip] a heretik. God through Jesus Christ through Paul gave
that authority to a prophet by the name of Titus - no one else named
in the Scriptures was specifically given authority to do so. However,
it would be reasonable to assume that since the authority was
transfered to Titus via Paul the Apostle; then an Apostle or Prophet
would have authority to declare a peson a heretic. There is nothing
in the Scriptures that authorizes lay people; or pastors, or
evangelists or teachers to make such a determination about a child of
God.
Speaking specifically to Titus, God said:
Tit 3:10-11 KJV
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition
reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being
condemned of himself.
Over the past several days Carl McCasky has been attacking
non-Christians using the word of God deceitfully. He has been
corrected several times; but refuses to accept the admonitions and
refuses to repent of his evil behavior towards those whom God "may"
have chosen to be children of God.
A primary responsibility of every Christian is to serve the Lord Jesus
Christ as an ambassador with the goal of reconciling men to God. To
do this God gave us both the word of reconcilation and the ministry of
reconcilation. It is by speaking the truth in love to unbelievers
that unbeleivers become saved. Faith cometh by hearing the word of
God. The word of God is not the word of God unless it is rigjtly
divided. Therefore, faith cometh by hearing the rightly divided word
of truth.
2Co 5:17-20 KJV
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old
things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by
Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto
himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed
unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech
you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Do you see any name calling targeting the un-reconciled in Paul's
words; or do you see the word "beseech?" We are admonished to
overcome evil with God and we are told that it is the goodness of God
that leadeth men to repentance.
Rom 12:21 KJV
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
That is the last verse from the twelfth chapter of Romans where the
topic is the renewed mind and and reasonable service. Those whose
minds are being renewed will overcome evil with good. Theose who try
to overcome evil with evil are not manifesting reneewed mind or
reasonable service.
Rom 2:1-5 KJV
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that
judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;
for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth
against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such
things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of
God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and
longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to
repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto
thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous
judgment of God;
Romans two continues the topic from chapter one concerning generic men
and women who commit idolatry, etc. The word "Therefore" in 2:1
refers back to the preceding verses. This is the most basic of
Christians doctrines. A person that judges andother while doing the
same thing is not only a hypocrite but despises the richness of God's
goodness, etc.
Today, Carl posted a post titled "Fools and Liars" in which be proved
himself to be a fool and a liar while calling others fools and liars.
Below is what he wrote. He opens by asking how God addresses fools
and liars in the context of unbelievers. God does not speak directly
to unbelievers except by prophets, ambassadors, angels, or some form
of phenomena because God is spirit and does not communicate directly
with the flesh. The natural man cannot communicate with God because
he does not have the spirit of God in him or upon him. Without that
spiritual connection God cannot communicate directly with man. Again,
there are cases where God communicated with unbelievers, but in every
case it was via a prophet, ambassador, a manifestation of the spirit,
an angel, or some form of phenomena. For Carl to alledge that God
communicates with unbelievers vioates one of the most basic tenants of
Christianity and promotes the false doctrine that natural man does not
need to be saved to communicate with God (Yes, God can hear natural
man; but natural man cannot hear God). Natural man can see the
manifestations of God; but not God.
Carl wrote the following hate post aimed at unbelievers:
Carl wrote:
How does God address fools and liars (ex. - atheists, heretics,
agnostics, mockers of God)? Read the following examples:
BB offers:
Carl cites passages from Psalms and Proverbs attemptinmg to deceive
unbelievers into thinkinmg that those verses are wrtitten to them.
That is a blatant misrepresentation and a deliberate wrong dividing of
the word of truth. Every one of the versers addresses Israel; not
Gentiles which is what atheists, agnostics, and the like would be.
Psalm 14:1, for example, was written by David the man of God to the
Chief Musician of Israel; not to unbelievers. The fools it speaks
about are people raised as Jews who were taught the word of God but
refused to believe it. Granted, an atheist or agnostic might be an
outoffellowshoip Jew or Christian; but we have to assume that they are
unbelievers until we learn otherwise. Carl was admonished several
times that he was wrongly dividing the word of truth. Carl was
admonished that he was using the word of God deceitfully. Yet Carl
refused to heed the admonitions. Rather than repent of his evil
behavior, he escalated it. He was admonished for wrongly dividing the
word of truth to "sheblew" on six occassions. Attacking one
unbeliever was not sufficent; he attacked unbelievers in general. That
is not the love of God. It is not loving to strike out at someone you
do not even know.
To make matters worse, Carl showed his ignorance of the Scriptures by
putting atheists, agnostics, hereticks, and mockers of God in the same
class. A heretick is not in the same class with atheists and
agnostics because a heretick is a person who has departed from the
faith. It is a believer that is doing bad things; just like Carl is
doing. Carl, apparently thinks himself very righteous for posting
such foolishness and that points to a lack of a sound spiritual mind.
Tit 3:10-11 KJV
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition
reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being
condemned of himself.
Carl is behaving like a heretick in that he has been admonished and
shown from the word of God that his behavior is wrong on more than one
occassion; yet he continues to behave the same way. He is too
arrogant to admit wrong doing, to arrogant to repent of wrong behavior
and that is proof that he is subverted and sinneth being condemned of
himself. He condemned his ownself by calling people fools and liars
while lying and behaving like a fool.
Carl will not listen to me because his pride and arrogance prevent him
from doing so. He worships men gods in lieuf of God and since I am
not John MacArthur or Billy Graham; he will not listen to me. But he
might listen to one of your who are Trinitarian. You would be doing
God and the body of Christ and Carl a favor by using your
ambassadorship to reconcile Carl to God. Despite his wrong behavior
over the past year, Carl does have potential and could be a great
assett to Christ once he decides to serve Chrsit in lieu of the men he
worships.
Carl wrote:
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their
ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the
world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the
brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion.
The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no knowledge;
those
may truly be said to know nothing that do not know God, v. 4. (from
Matthew
Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a
fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights
in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult.
(NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of
fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly.
(NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own
opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than
both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle,
you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools.
This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of
fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
Many more verses in scripture show clearly that God does not think
highly of
those whom He considers fools such as atheists, heretics, agnostic,
mockers
of God and the like. And He also makes it clear that we should not
answer to
their folly since they are fools. So I encourage my Christian brethren
to
not be lured into pointless and vain arguments and discussions with
them for
to do so is to lower yourself to their low level and behave in a
foolish
manner as well. Leave them be and turn to scripture and prayers for
them
instead.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
.
|
|
|
| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
27 Dec 2007 09:39:16 PM |
|
|
On Dec 28, 2:41 am, " ::: good news :::" <veral...@lycos.com> wrote:
Bible Bob,
What exactly was Carl's heresy in your opinion?
Since when has posting Scripture become heresy?
And why did you use his full name in the subject line while you yourself
come along as anonymous as "Bible Bob"?
JERRY
Carl does the same thing, referring to BB as his Christian name,
Robert Sowle. It's a fairly common thing to do here, apparently.
In how far does your post here differ from an ad hominem attack on a
Christian?
JERRY
You should talk. I'm still waiting for you to show where I *ever*
claimed that some woman was the reincarnation of Jesus, which you
claimed in another post.
.
|
|
|
| User: " ::: good news :::" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
27 Dec 2007 10:13:14 PM |
|
|
In
news:5459ea06-1dee-43ae-8087-c0dffd16f8b9@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com,
rogue <rogue719@hotmail.com> typed:
On Dec 28, 2:41 am, " ::: good news :::" <veral...@lycos.com> wrote:
Bible Bob,
What exactly was Carl's heresy in your opinion?
Since when has posting Scripture become heresy?
And why did you use his full name in the subject line while you
yourself come along as anonymous as "Bible Bob"?
JERRY
Carl does the same thing, referring to BB as his Christian name,
Robert Sowle. It's a fairly common thing to do here, apparently.
In how far does your post here differ from an ad hominem attack on a
Christian?
JERRY
You should talk. I'm still waiting for you to show where I *ever*
claimed that some woman was the reincarnation of Jesus, which you
claimed in another post.
You have not found my post yet?
It was posted many hours ago... maybe you look for it and answer it
where it is on your newsreader... but there it is, if you do not find
it...
In news:5tief5F1d77brU1@mid.individual.net,
::: good news ::: <veralein@lycos.com> typed:
In
news:bd4c1bdf-7180-4057-a9aa-a67020febb2e@a35g2000prf.googlegroups.com,
rogue <rogue719@hotmail.com> typed:
On Dec 25, 5:48 pm, " ::: good news :::" <veral...@lycos.com> wrote:
Innews:2l11n3dpt5dl2a37haqeb02m6hh8im7f6p@4ax.com,
Bible Bob <bible...@saintly.com> typed:
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:01:24 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veral...@lycos.com> wrote:
In
news:9405e391-f1c0-4499-a5d8-b9f7e50bc18f@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com,
sai...@nettally.com <sai...@nettally.com> typed:
On Dec 24, 3:32 am, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
JERRY
Then you can count on going straight to hell, Carl, for lying
about needing to believe in the Trinity to be saved when the
Bible says no such thing.
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Correct!
May God bless,
Carl
my website --http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog --http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
God Bless,
::: vera :::
Vera,
Do you realize what you have done? You have agreed with Satan,
against a child of God.
VERA
Preterists like Jerry have unfortunalely messed it. People who do
not give Christ all the honour have, too.
Though I like Jerry very much, he is a convert by "Pastor" Dave.
JERRY
Boy, you really haven't been paying attention, have you? I'm not a
preterist. I do not believe that Jesus returned around 70 AD, I
don't believe he has ever returned and I don't believe he ever will.
I did not speak of you, but of Jerry, the "Spiritman". Sorry if I
caused confusion. I did not know "rogue" is "Jerry", too.
Dave Raymond is another biblical literalist like yourself, like Carl
and like Bob, but while you all have differing interpretations of the
text, you all believe the text is true.
On the other hand, I look at the text in the context of history and
see that the bible isn't true at all. I can see that the bible is
historically inaccurate and incorrect, which means that the god of
the bible didn't dictate it or lacked the power to protect it.
Did you read it all yourself, or is this just a second-hand knowledge?
I see that the text of the bible has changed tremendously over the
years and that means the god of the bible didn't dictate it or lacked
the power to protect it.
Can you give an example, please?
I see that the bible fails on it's prophecies, therefore the god of
the bible didn't dictate the bible or lacked the power to ensure the
prophecies he gave his prophets came true.
How could you see that? *scratching-my-head*
Please give an example. Where exactly did Bible prophecy fail in your
view?
I see that the books of the bible contradict each other and therefore
the men who wrote the bible did so on their own, without any help
from God, or that God lacked the power to protect his word and
ensure it was true to try to bring followers to him.
I cannot see such contradictions, so please back them up by examples.
All of these things mean that the people who believe the bible to be
literally true, Vera, are people who aren't smart enough to
understand what they are reading. They were told something is true
and they believe it because they are unable or unwilling to ensure
what they believe has some factual basis.
You are wrong, and you have obviously NOT read my story. If you want
me to take you seriously, you should do the same with me, or there is
no base for a dialogue.
Carl, the hypocrite, an accuser for Satan speaking against a child
of God quoted the passage incompletely leaving out the things he
himself is guilty of.
VERA
Oh, you have become a judge?
JERRY
Much like yourself apparently, and not a very sharp one if you think
that I follow Dave Raymond in any manner. Read the archives, Vera,
and you will see that Dave Raymond received much the same hounding on
his lack of biblical knowledge that I have thrown at Carl recently.
You will also see Dave try to challenge me on the bible on multiple
occasions only to turn tail and run when confronted with facts that
he can't refute. Carl, on the other hand, is more like Jistaskkin
from alt.talk.creationism, refusing to respond with anything but
verses which actually condemn himself, when he's not spamming the
newsgroups with mindless copy-and-pasted sermons that contradict
each other.
I did not know your name was Jerry. I thought it was Rogue, and Jerry
was quoted.
vera
That is what I think, too. I do not mean you have to use the term
"Trinity", but God is One in three persons.
JERRY
But, what you or I or anyone else thinks is irrelevant if you can't
show it in the text, Vera. Carl can't support his claim that you
have to believe in the Trinity to be saved. Carl KNOWS he can't
support it because he attempted to once before and looked pretty
silly doing it. In fact, he looked like any other smorgasbord
Christian. He looked like Glenn.
Therefore, you may think the same thing, but God apparently doesn't
think so since it's not in the word you believe to be absolutely
true. You and other Christians can argue the "true nature" of God
till the Judgment Day that will never come, but it won't make any
difference, since God apparently doesn't care if a follower knows his
true nature in order to be saved.
Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the Creator God. If there are
doubts, I can back it up by Scripture very well, but usually people do
not want to see it, because it proves them wrong. And only few are
really interested in the truth, but more in being right. Which group
do you fit in?
There is a path we are to walk as followers of the Lord Jesus
Christ and that is behind the Lord Jesus Christ. Carl replaced
the Lord Jesus Christ with men gods that he owes allegiance to.
VERA
I have never seen him doing that.
JERRY
Yes you have. Carl has no opinions of his own that he's willing to
risk in discussion so he constantly copies and pastes the opinions of
others. He offers those same cut-and-paste opinions as "facts" to
support his own claims.
It proves that he is not alone with what he believes in.
What do you believe in? I could not see so far, and do not want to
research... So please clear me up. What is your point in the Christian
newsgroups?
vera
But this newsgroup is not all about Jerry, you or me. It is about
those who might seek, and find false gospels all around, while all
the Christians have run away - well, fortunately not all.
JERRY
What this newsgroup is about, IMO, is discussion on Christianity and
Christians. That means that where the bible is concerned, either
fundamental differences in interpretations of the text or even
discussions on whether the bible is true are all fair game. It also
means the behavior of Christians and non-Christians alike are fair
game.
I don't feel unfairly attacked. I *do* feel that you haven't been
reading my posts at all if you think that Dave Raymond and I have
anything in common. Ewwwww. ;-)
No, I have NEVER read any of your posts so far. I addressed myself to
you as rogue, and thought you had quoted Jerry (Spiritman). That can
happen, but my words were for you, Rogue. Why do you call yourself
"Rogue"?
Carl despises the riches of God's goodness and forbearing
and longsuffering. If he knew the goodness of God he would have
used the goodness of God in his reponse to Jerry.
VERA
There is truth in Carl's words, but not in Jerry's.
JERRY
Really? Then why not have CARL tell you where the text in the NT
shows that you have to believe in the Trinity to be saved? Not what
you *believe,* vera, but what the text actually says?
I believe in what GOD tells me, and Carl does the same.
Chuck made his best shot and fell waaaaaaaaaay short last month.
Carl tried before that and only lasted about 2 posts before he
realized he had no case in the text.
There is truth in my claim that the bible does not support that
position. I have shown where Jesus and others have said what you
need to do to be saved. Belief in the Trinity is never mentioned.
Christian believers will automatically believe in Jesus as one person
of the One God. God is the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This
concept has been summarized in the term "Trinity" - but it is not the
term that matters, but if you believe in Jesus Christ, who died for
your sins on the cross, was resurrected on the third day as the first
who overcome death, Immanuel - which means "God with us", Jesus,
which means "God saves".
I await you to actually support your claim. ;-)
Rom 2:4 KJV
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and
longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to
repentance?
Jerry, is a born again skeptic
CERA
I do not agree. In fact, he is not sceptical enough and accepts any
weird ideas of others around. A few years ago he believed that a
woman who posted in the usenet was Jesus Christ reincarnated.
JERRY
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
Are you NUTS? Where and when? Please show support for this
ridiculous assertion in the archives of Usenet. Show the thread, the
date and my post to support that.
No need for that, sorry. I was speaking about Spiritman Jerry. I do
not know anything about you and have not followed your talks.
Vera, I don't accept the bible as true, much less that ANYONE is
Jesus reincarnated. Hell, I've argued that there is not even any
empirical evidence to support that the historical Jesus even
existed. Now, HOW can someone who didn't even exist become
"reincarnated?"
Oh, there you go and claim what not even His worst enemies claim
anymore... It is rather proved that Jesus was on earth. Where is your
proof that he did not exist? It is just that you cannot imagine it.
You cannot imagine miracles, because they have never happened to you.
Have you ever asked for one?
You are waaaaaaaaaaaaay out on a limb here, kiddo, and you can't
support that claim even a little bit.
Which claim?
Rogue, there are two aspects of this world... there is a physical
side, and a spiritual side of it - do you not agree? Obviously I am
talking of apples while you are talking of pears.
and as a child of God is due the
rightlly divided word of truth via doctrine, reproof, and
correction spoken in love; not lies in hypocricy. For some reason
that you or I or Carl may not understand; God called Jerry to the
family of God and gave him a place in that family. Jerry's
response was to what Carl had said. According to what Carl said;
Carl was bound for hell. Jerry called his attention to what he had
said and that is not a sin.
Carl in his arrogant prideful way responded to Jerry's right
behavior with wrong behavior. It was Carl that was wrong in this
situation; not Jerry.
VERA
That is what you say, but I have not read that. I know that Jerry is
on a false trip, and I also know that Carl posted Scripture.
JERRY
Oh, he'll post Scripture, always out of context and always trying to
twist it to say something other than what it says. I post scripture
too, Vera, and I don't take it out of context, and I *do* show why
I'm correct. That's why Carl avoids me.
You do not look like his best friend - so why should he long for
debates with you?
Now, I'm waiting very patiently for you to prove your claim that I
stated that a woman on Usenet was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ
or admit that you were at best mistaken or at worst, a liar for
Jesus.
Sorry again, that was another Jerry I was talking about.
::: vera :::
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
27 Dec 2007 11:43:45 PM |
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On Dec 28, 8:13 am, " ::: good news :::" <veral...@lycos.com> wrote:
Innews:5459ea06-1dee-43ae-8087-c0dffd16f8b9@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com,
rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> typed:
On Dec 28, 2:41 am, " ::: good news :::" <veral...@lycos.com> wrote:
Bible Bob,
What exactly was Carl's heresy in your opinion?
Since when has posting Scripture become heresy?
And why did you use his full name in the subject line while you
yourself come along as anonymous as "Bible Bob"?
JERRY
Carl does the same thing, referring to BB as his Christian name,
Robert Sowle. It's a fairly common thing to do here, apparently.
In how far does your post here differ from an ad hominem attack on a
Christian?
JERRY
You should talk. I'm still waiting for you to show where I *ever*
claimed that some woman was the reincarnation of Jesus, which you
claimed in another post.
You have not found my post yet?
It was posted many hours ago... maybe you look for it and answer it
where it is on your newsreader... but there it is, if you do not find
it...
JERRY
Found it. I don't use a newsreader but browse through Google and I
had to wade through a bunch of posts to get to it. I've responded
though.
.
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| User: "Bible Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
27 Dec 2007 07:48:54 PM |
|
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On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:41:07 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:
Bible Bob,
What exactly was Carl's heresy in your opinion?
Since when has posting Scripture become heresy?
And why did you use his full name in the subject line while you yourself
come along as anonymous as "Bible Bob"?
In how far does your post here differ from an ad hominem attack on a
Christian?
::: vera :::
Vera,
Carl quotes passages of Scripture applicable to one group of people
and applies them to a group of people that they do not apply to. For
example, Psalms 14:1, was written by David the man of God to the Chief
Musician of Israel. It speaks to Israel; not to the Gentiles. The
Old Testament was not written to the Gentiles. It was written to the
Jews. The Bible was not written to unbelievers. It is written to
believers. Psalms 14:1 speaks to Jews about Jews. Jews were taught
the word of God from childhood. Those that refused those teachings
and said there is no God were the fools spoken of; not the Chinese or
African pygmies who were never taught the word of God.
It is the love of God that draws people to God. Carl manifests the
hatred of Satan by trying to alienate those whom God may have called.
We do not know who is and who is not saved or who will be saved, but
God does. Who is to say that an "atheist" reading the newsgroup may
not read something that somehow leads him to Christ? Trying to "get
even" with all atheists and agnostics because of Carl's hard feelings
against a few atheists is unjust and not of God.
The atheists defeat Carl because Carl does not know the word of God
well enough. Ratrher than learn the word of God and learn how to
communciate with people, Carl becomes haughty and begins calling
people names.
Here is a better way to explain it. In the NT there are two words
translated "unbelief"; "apetheia" and "apistia".
Apistia is faithlessness, untrustiness, distrust, unbelief, apply to
all without regard to their circumstances or opportunities of knowing
the truth. An African Pygmy who had never heard of God would fit into
this category. So would an agnostic or an atheist who has not heard
"sufficient" word of God to believe.
Apethia is unwillingness to be persuaded, wilful unbeleif which
opposes itself; hence unbelief in action, disobedience, restricted to
those who have heard and know the truth. It is a stronger term than
apistia and denotes an actual manifestation of it. Carl fits into
this category because he has heard enough of the word of God but
refuses to believe and act upon it.
Both words are used twice in Romans 11. Apistia is used twice in
verses 20 and 23 to speak about unbelief due to ignorance. Verses 30
and 32 speak about unbeleif that is due to apathy. Paul speaking to
the Gentiles said:
Rom 11:13-34 KJV
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the
Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my
flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,
what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the
root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild
olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the
root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest
not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be
graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief [Gr. apistia] they were broken off, and
thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also
spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which
fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his
goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief [Gr. apistia],
shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by
nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree:
how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed
into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this
mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness
in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be
come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall
come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from
Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their
sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as
touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now
obtained mercy through their unbelief [Gr. apethia]:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy
they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief [Gr. apethia], that he
might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his
counsellor?
Carl pretends to know the mind of God and to be God's counselor. Carl
pretends to know what is in the hearts and minds of "all" atheists and
"all" agnostics because he is attempting to usurp authority from God
by classifying all atheists and all agnostics as liars and fools.
Well, are all atheist liars and fools? If so, we do they defeat Carl
so easily. Are all agnostics liars and fools; every single one of
them, or could it be that they have not heard enough to make the right
decision. If God gives them a whole lifetime to believe; why can't
Carl.
Hebrews four explains this so very well. Apethia occurs in verses 6
and 11.
Heb 4:1-13 KJV
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the
word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them
that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I
have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the
works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and
they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief
[Gr. apethia]:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so
long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden
not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have
spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his
own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall
after the same example of unbelief [Gr, apethia].
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any
twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and
spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the
thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight:
but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we
have to do.
Carl has given people an example of unbelief. Carl does not care what
God wants. Carl only cares about what Carl wants. In the preceding
chapter apistia is used twice in verses 12 and 19.
Heb 3:1-19 KJV
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,
consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was
faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch
as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all
things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a
testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we
hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the
end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his
voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of
temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty
years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do
alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of
unbelief [Gr. apistia], in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any
of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of
our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not
your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that
came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them
that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but
to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief [Gr.
apistia].
Carl has demonstrated over and over again that he lacks the maturity
of a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is arrogant, stubborn, and
self seeking. He seeks glory for himself, rather than for the Lord
Jesus Christ.
Heb 4:12 KJV
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any
twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and
spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the
thoughts and intents of the heart.
It does not matter who speaks the word of God. The word of God is the
word of God and ALL Christians are to submit themselves to it
regardless of who speaks it. We submit ourselves to the word of God;
not people. Ephesians does speak about submitting ourselves one to
another. The word submit being from hupotasso which includes the
meaning of a deliberate decision by proper arrangement. In the case
of the married (wives submit (hupotasso) - it refers to the couple
deciding who will take out the trash. The couple lovingly decide who
should do the task. But, when it coems to obedience to the word of
God, we are to obey the word of God no matter who speaks it.
If an atheist catches me doing wrong and shows me from the word of God
that I am wrong; then I must repent. If I do not I prove to the
atheist and to everyone else that I am a hypocrite. That is what Carl
has done. He makes unrighteous judgments against groups of people he
does not even know while doing the same things that he accuses them
of.
Vera, I am not against Carl. He is my brother in Christ and the word
of God commands me to love him. I am being "loving" by admonishing
him to do the word of God. His subverted mind may tell him that he
should not listen to me because a non-Trinitarian writes the words.
That only proves his arrogance. A believer believes the word of God
noi matter who speaks it.
Hope that helps.
Bob
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
In news:2k38n3h2bkcovfhsag5o1hmocaena87mmu@4ax.com,
Bible Bob <biblebob@saintly.com> typed:
I am not a prophet and do not have the God given authority to call
Carl [snip] a heretik. God through Jesus Christ through Paul gave
that authority to a prophet by the name of Titus - no one else named
in the Scriptures was specifically given authority to do so. However,
it would be reasonable to assume that since the authority was
transfered to Titus via Paul the Apostle; then an Apostle or Prophet
would have authority to declare a peson a heretic. There is nothing
in the Scriptures that authorizes lay people; or pastors, or
evangelists or teachers to make such a determination about a child of
God.
Speaking specifically to Titus, God said:
Tit 3:10-11 KJV
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition
reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being
condemned of himself.
Over the past several days Carl McCasky has been attacking
non-Christians using the word of God deceitfully. He has been
corrected several times; but refuses to accept the admonitions and
refuses to repent of his evil behavior towards those whom God "may"
have chosen to be children of God.
A primary responsibility of every Christian is to serve the Lord Jesus
Christ as an ambassador with the goal of reconciling men to God. To
do this God gave us both the word of reconcilation and the ministry of
reconcilation. It is by speaking the truth in love to unbelievers
that unbeleivers become saved. Faith cometh by hearing the word of
God. The word of God is not the word of God unless it is rigjtly
divided. Therefore, faith cometh by hearing the rightly divided word
of truth.
2Co 5:17-20 KJV
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old
things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by
Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto
himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed
unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech
you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Do you see any name calling targeting the un-reconciled in Paul's
words; or do you see the word "beseech?" We are admonished to
overcome evil with God and we are told that it is the goodness of God
that leadeth men to repentance.
Rom 12:21 KJV
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
That is the last verse from the twelfth chapter of Romans where the
topic is the renewed mind and and reasonable service. Those whose
minds are being renewed will overcome evil with good. Theose who try
to overcome evil with evil are not manifesting reneewed mind or
reasonable service.
Rom 2:1-5 KJV
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that
judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;
for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth
against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such
things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of
God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and
longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to
repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto
thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous
judgment of God;
Romans two continues the topic from chapter one concerning generic men
and women who commit idolatry, etc. The word "Therefore" in 2:1
refers back to the preceding verses. This is the most basic of
Christians doctrines. A person that judges andother while doing the
same thing is not only a hypocrite but despises the richness of God's
goodness, etc.
Today, Carl posted a post titled "Fools and Liars" in which be proved
himself to be a fool and a liar while calling others fools and liars.
Below is what he wrote. He opens by asking how God addresses fools
and liars in the context of unbelievers. God does not speak directly
to unbelievers except by prophets, ambassadors, angels, or some form
of phenomena because God is spirit and does not communicate directly
with the flesh. The natural man cannot communicate with God because
he does not have the spirit of God in him or upon him. Without that
spiritual connection God cannot communicate directly with man. Again,
there are cases where God communicated with unbelievers, but in every
case it was via a prophet, ambassador, a manifestation of the spirit,
an angel, or some form of phenomena. For Carl to alledge that God
communicates with unbelievers vioates one of the most basic tenants of
Christianity and promotes the false doctrine that natural man does not
need to be saved to communicate with God (Yes, God can hear natural
man; but natural man cannot hear God). Natural man can see the
manifestations of God; but not God.
Carl wrote the following hate post aimed at unbelievers:
Carl wrote:
How does God address fools and liars (ex. - atheists, heretics,
agnostics, mockers of God)? Read the following examples:
BB offers:
Carl cites passages from Psalms and Proverbs attemptinmg to deceive
unbelievers into thinkinmg that those verses are wrtitten to them.
That is a blatant misrepresentation and a deliberate wrong dividing of
the word of truth. Every one of the versers addresses Israel; not
Gentiles which is what atheists, agnostics, and the like would be.
Psalm 14:1, for example, was written by David the man of God to the
Chief Musician of Israel; not to unbelievers. The fools it speaks
about are people raised as Jews who were taught the word of God but
refused to believe it. Granted, an atheist or agnostic might be an
outoffellowshoip Jew or Christian; but we have to assume that they are
unbelievers until we learn otherwise. Carl was admonished several
times that he was wrongly dividing the word of truth. Carl was
admonished that he was using the word of God deceitfully. Yet Carl
refused to heed the admonitions. Rather than repent of his evil
behavior, he escalated it. He was admonished for wrongly dividing the
word of truth to "sheblew" on six occassions. Attacking one
unbeliever was not sufficent; he attacked unbelievers in general. That
is not the love of God. It is not loving to strike out at someone you
do not even know.
To make matters worse, Carl showed his ignorance of the Scriptures by
putting atheists, agnostics, hereticks, and mockers of God in the same
class. A heretick is not in the same class with atheists and
agnostics because a heretick is a person who has departed from the
faith. It is a believer that is doing bad things; just like Carl is
doing. Carl, apparently thinks himself very righteous for posting
such foolishness and that points to a lack of a sound spiritual mind.
Tit 3:10-11 KJV
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition
reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being
condemned of himself.
Carl is behaving like a heretick in that he has been admonished and
shown from the word of God that his behavior is wrong on more than one
occassion; yet he continues to behave the same way. He is too
arrogant to admit wrong doing, to arrogant to repent of wrong behavior
and that is proof that he is subverted and sinneth being condemned of
himself. He condemned his ownself by calling people fools and liars
while lying and behaving like a fool.
Carl will not listen to me because his pride and arrogance prevent him
from doing so. He worships men gods in lieuf of God and since I am
not John MacArthur or Billy Graham; he will not listen to me. But he
might listen to one of your who are Trinitarian. You would be doing
God and the body of Christ and Carl a favor by using your
ambassadorship to reconcile Carl to God. Despite his wrong behavior
over the past year, Carl does have potential and could be a great
assett to Christ once he decides to serve Chrsit in lieu of the men he
worships.
Carl wrote:
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their
ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the
world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the
brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion.
The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no knowledge;
those
may truly be said to know nothing that do not know God, v. 4. (from
Matthew
Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a
fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights
in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult.
(NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of
fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly.
(NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own
opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than
both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle,
you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools.
This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of
fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
Many more verses in scripture show clearly that God does not think
highly of
those whom He considers fools such as atheists, heretics, agnostic,
mockers
of God and the like. And He also makes it clear that we should not
answer to
their folly since they are fools. So I encourage my Christian brethren
to
not be lured into pointless and vain arguments and discussions with
them for
to do so is to lower yourself to their low level and behave in a
foolish
manner as well. Leave them be and turn to scripture and prayers for
them
instead.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
.
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| User: "Chuck Stamford" |
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| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
28 Dec 2007 05:02:11 AM |
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"Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> wrote in message
news:cui8n3hv3i9hbg2t6v2buhspbfnlhqsrhh@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:41:07 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:
Bible Bob,
What exactly was Carl's heresy in your opinion?
Since when has posting Scripture become heresy?
And why did you use his full name in the subject line while you yourself
come along as anonymous as "Bible Bob"?
In how far does your post here differ from an ad hominem attack on a
Christian?
::: vera :::
Vera,
Carl quotes passages of Scripture applicable to one group of people
and applies them to a group of people that they do not apply to. For
example, Psalms 14:1, was written by David the man of God to the Chief
Musician of Israel. It speaks to Israel; not to the Gentiles. The
Old Testament was not written to the Gentiles. It was written to the
Jews. The Bible was not written to unbelievers. It is written to
believers. Psalms 14:1 speaks to Jews about Jews. Jews were taught
the word of God from childhood. Those that refused those teachings
and said there is no God were the fools spoken of; not the Chinese or
African pygmies who were never taught the word of God.
Nonsense.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what
may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his
eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they
knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools Romans 1:18-22 (NIV)
That's Paul, heretic. Now what are you going to blather on about? It's the
long way of putting Psalm 14:1, but there is NO doubt that's what it's
doing. Don't you ever get tired of having people point out just how little
you know about the Bible? I would have thought that any self-respecting
person would by now have either shut up, or gone back and learned something.
It is the love of God that draws people to God. Carl manifests the
hatred of Satan by trying to alienate those whom God may have called.
Carl calls a heretic a heretic, which is entirely biblical, regardless of
how you'd like to spin it.
We do not know who is and who is not saved or who will be saved, but
God does. Who is to say that an "atheist" reading the newsgroup may
not read something that somehow leads him to Christ? Trying to "get
even" with all atheists and agnostics because of Carl's hard feelings
against a few atheists is unjust and not of God.
Calling an atheist and atheist, or a heretic a heretic is not "getting even"
or manifesting hatred toward them. It's dealing with them in the truth.
You are a heretic, and if you don't repent of your sin, you are going to end
up in hell. And I'm telling you this out of love, not hate. If I hated
you, I'd be encouraging you in your sin, instead of warning you of its
consequences to you.
The atheists defeat Carl because Carl does not know the word of God
well enough. Ratrher than learn the word of God and learn how to
communciate with people, Carl becomes haughty and begins calling
people names.
Here is a better way to explain it. In the NT there are two words
translated "unbelief"; "apetheia" and "apistia".
Apistia is faithlessness, untrustiness, distrust, unbelief, apply to
all without regard to their circumstances or opportunities of knowing
the truth. An African Pygmy who had never heard of God would fit into
this category. So would an agnostic or an atheist who has not heard
"sufficient" word of God to believe.
Oh please. What would be "sufficient" short of them actually believing?
The Gospel is not that complex. Your average person can put it in a couple
of sentences.
Besides, "apistia" says nothing about applying to all regardless of
circumstances. It denotes only the epistemic state of lacking trust in
something, with no implication whatsoever as to the reason for that lack.
Apethia is unwillingness to be persuaded, wilful unbeleif which
opposes itself; hence unbelief in action, disobedience, restricted to
those who have heard and know the truth.
More crap. The concept it denotes is restricted to having heard,
understanding what has been heard, and rejecting it. There is nothing about
knowing the truth in the denotation of the word. Apparently it's not just
the Bible that you can't resist twisting. Greek lexicons get the same
treatment, eh?
It is a stronger term than
apistia and denotes an actual manifestation of it.
It's not "stronger", for that implies the two words denote the same concept,
only to a different degree. That's not the case between "apistia" and
"apeitheia". The latter simply includes in the concept it denotes an
attitude of certainty in unbelief that is missing from the former.
The difference is the difference between lacking belief that A is true for
no particular reason (or at least where no particular reason is specified in
the context), and believing that A is false because one believes B, and B
entails A is false. One can lack belief in A without believing A false, by
simply being agnostic regarding A. One cannot be "apeitheia" regarding A if
one is agnostic about A... at least not in any case where one is sane. So
it is the denyer of A's truth that is "apeitheia", and the agnostic
regarding A that is "apistia". That's the difference between them.
Carl fits into
this category because he has heard enough of the word of God but
refuses to believe and act upon it.
Perhaps so, but never in any post of his I've read where he is responding to
you. You, otoh, are constantly denying God's word in one fashion or
another.
Both words are used twice in Romans 11. Apistia is used twice in
verses 20 and 23 to speak about unbelief due to ignorance. Verses 30
and 32 speak about unbeleif that is due to apathy. Paul speaking to
the Gentiles said:
Rom 11:13-34 KJV
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the
Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my
flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,
what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the
root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild
olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the
root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest
not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be
graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief [Gr. apistia] they were broken off, and
thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Let's all remember here what you just argued above: "Apistia is
faithlessness, untrustiness, distrust, unbelief, apply to
all without regard to their circumstances or opportunities of knowing the
truth. An African Pygmy who had never heard of God would fit into this
category. So would an agnostic or an atheist who has not heard
"sufficient" word of God to believe."
Not to belabor the obvious here, but I don't think Paul is talking about
African pygmies at verse 20, nor is he thinking "agnostic or an atheist who
has not heard 'sufficient' word of God to believe". You know, just once I'd
like to see you get through an entire post without stepping on your own
shoelaces.
If your understading of the difference between the Greek "apistia" and
"apeitheia" held any water whatsoever, Paul would have had to use
"apeitheia" at verse 20, rather than his actual choice of "apistia". For we
are told over and over again in both the Old and New Testaments of the
obstinancy of Israel. Except God doesn't call them obstinate. He calls
them "stiff-necked". Same thing.
"I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a
stiff-necked people. Ex 32:9 (NIV)
For the LORD had said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites, 'You are a
stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might
destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with
you.'" Ex 33:5 (NIV)
Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD
your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked
people. Deut 9:6 (NIV)
For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been
rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much
more will you rebel after I die! Deut 31:27 (NIV)
Add to the above 1 Ki. 17:14, 2 Ch 30:8, 36:13, Ne. 9:16, 17, 29; Jer. 7:26,
17:23, and 19:15. And we could, in a pinch, throw in Acts 7:51 to boot!
I mean, it's almost laughable how wrong you are in this post! It's like
being treated to Charlie Chaplin's version of a New Testament Greek scholar.
Real slapstick.
Hope that helps.
Bob
Yeah, Bob, it always helps when you talk or write out your thoughts. If
there was ever any doubt that you're a pretender to the Christian faith and
knowledge of the Bible, you remove it every time you post. You know why I
respect Jerry much more than I do you? Because he's not pretending to be
something he isn't. He's lost his faith, and it's left him with a bit of a
bad taste in his mouth concerning Christianity, and he wears the truth right
out there on his sleeve where everyone can see what motivates him. Not you.
You hide in the dark, and wait for the unsuspecting and weak to wander by.
You I have no respect for at all.
Chuck Stamford
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| User: "Bible Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
28 Dec 2007 07:43:13 AM |
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On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 03:02:11 -0800, "Chuck Stamford"
<shell__stamford@cox.net> wrote:
"Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> wrote in message
news:cui8n3hv3i9hbg2t6v2buhspbfnlhqsrhh@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:41:07 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:
Bible Bob,
What exactly was Carl's heresy in your opinion?
Since when has posting Scripture become heresy?
And why did you use his full name in the subject line while you yourself
come along as anonymous as "Bible Bob"?
In how far does your post here differ from an ad hominem attack on a
Christian?
::: vera :::
Vera,
Carl quotes passages of Scripture applicable to one group of people
and applies them to a group of people that they do not apply to. For
example, Psalms 14:1, was written by David the man of God to the Chief
Musician of Israel. It speaks to Israel; not to the Gentiles. The
Old Testament was not written to the Gentiles. It was written to the
Jews. The Bible was not written to unbelievers. It is written to
believers. Psalms 14:1 speaks to Jews about Jews. Jews were taught
the word of God from childhood. Those that refused those teachings
and said there is no God were the fools spoken of; not the Chinese or
African pygmies who were never taught the word of God.
Nonsense.
Not nonsense. Here is Psalms 14:1-3 with the superscription:
Psa 14:1-3 KJV
1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> The fool hath said in
his heart, {There is} no God. They are corrupt, they have done
abominable works, {there is} none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see
if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
{there is} none that doeth good, no, not one.
Notice that the word set "there is" occurs three times and in every
case was added by the version editors. By the way, you also have
another problem to overcome. According to the Sopherim, the word
translated God was Jehovah but they changed it to El. There is a big
difference between saying there is no Creator (Elohim) and a Lord
(Jehovah) which is the same God in covenant relationship with man. The
fool says in his heart there is no "Jehovah," no Lord; not "no God."
For example, to be saved we must confess Jesus as Lord; not as God
because Lord denotes submission and obedience to.
Rom 10:9 KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou
shalt be saved.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what
may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his
eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they
knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools Romans 1:18-22 (NIV)
Well done, though I wish you wouldn't have used a kiddie Bible to
quote from. Had Carl done what you did, we would not be having this
conversation. Indeed Romans 1:18-22 speaks ABOUT generic man; BUT,
the words were spoken TO the church of God ABOUT generic man.
Rom 1:7 KJV
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to
you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Here is what you are failing to take into consideration. God gave us
knowledge about unbelievers so that we can understand the plight of
unbelievers so that we as ambassadors for Christ might reconcile them
to God. We were not given the information to torture unbelievers
with.
Stop for a second a consider the plight of some unbelievers. Some of
those described in the verses are mentally ill people; people that
would have sex with peopole of the same sex. These people stand to
lose those that they "think" they love if they are to be converted -
from their perspective. As believers we have to be able to understand
how these people think so that we can overcome their wrong thinking
with right information. It is one thing for me to say to you
"professing yourself wise you became a fool" because you have the
spiritual ability to understand what the words mean. The natural man
does not have spirit and therefore does not have the ability to
discern spiritual truth. Faith comes by hearing the word of God when
the truth is spoken in love. A fire and brimstone rendition of the
verses to scare a person into believing is not loving. A mature
Christian will explain all that the person needs to know to him in a
loving compassionate way knowing that were it not for the grace of God
he could be in the same or worse shape than the person he is speaking
to.
That's Paul, heretic. Now what are you going to blather on about? It's the
long way of putting Psalm 14:1, but there is NO doubt that's what it's
doing. Don't you ever get tired of having people point out just how little
you know about the Bible? I would have thought that any self-respecting
person would by now have either shut up, or gone back and learned something.
I'm not the heretic, here. It is you that have a history of preaching
false doctrines which you cannot substantiate from the Scriptures that
behaves like a heretic. It is you who denies the One True God and
replaces Him with a creature that you worship in lieu of God.
I don't get tired of people pointing out that I am wrong because they
rarely prove me wrong. It's a joyous occassion for me when someone
rises to the point in their life that they can prove me wrong from the
Scriptures because it tells me that there is someone beside me that
has taken the time to learn them.
You attack the messenger just have hyperreligious brainwashed fanatics
have done for centuries. You have yet to provide evidence from the
Scriptures that I am wrong. All you offer is your opinion which is
wrong which is why you can't back it with Scripture.
It is the love of God that draws people to God. Carl manifests the
hatred of Satan by trying to alienate those whom God may have called.
Carl calls a heretic a heretic, which is entirely biblical, regardless of
how you'd like to spin it.
Foolish one, a heretick is a unbelieving believer; not an atheist or
agnostic who is not a member of the body fo Christ. Read the verses
yourself, learn something so you won't be as ignorant as Carl.
Tit 3:8-11 KJV
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm
constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to
maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and
strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition
reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being
condemned of himself.
Heretics were members of the church; not unbelievers such as atheists
and agnostics which did not attend church. They were those who
believed God but were contentious who promoted heretical doctrines. A
person that promotes the false doctrine of the Trinity would be
heretical; not a person that promotes that Jesus Christ is the Son of
God.
We do not know who is and who is not saved or who will be saved, but
God does. Who is to say that an "atheist" reading the newsgroup may
not read something that somehow leads him to Christ? Trying to "get
even" with all atheists and agnostics because of Carl's hard feelings
against a few atheists is unjust and not of God.
Calling an atheist and atheist, or a heretic a heretic is not "getting even"
or manifesting hatred toward them. It's dealing with them in the truth.
You are a heretic, and if you don't repent of your sin, you are going to end
up in hell. And I'm telling you this out of love, not hate. If I hated
you, I'd be encouraging you in your sin, instead of warning you of its
consequences to you.
No lie is of the truth. You fundamentalists believe that the end
justifies the means. You promote lying and you lie to convey truth.
No lie is of the truth.
Rom 3:7 KJV
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his
glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
You are a sinner because you lie while pretending to speak truth. Your
end justifies the means philosophy is contrary to the word of God.
Chuck, your problem is that you think that if you say something that
makes it true. Well, it don't. The truth is that in order for you to
document truth you need truth as a source of truth. I prove just
about every statement I make with Scripture. If I am wrong, at least
I tried to be right. You glory in being wrong and promoting
foolishness. Who is the worse sinner?
The atheists defeat Carl because Carl does not know the word of God
well enough. Ratrher than learn the word of God and learn how to
communciate with people, Carl becomes haughty and begins calling
people names.
Here is a better way to explain it. In the NT there are two words
translated "unbelief"; "apetheia" and "apistia".
Apistia is faithlessness, untrustiness, distrust, unbelief, apply to
all without regard to their circumstances or opportunities of knowing
the truth. An African Pygmy who had never heard of God would fit into
this category. So would an agnostic or an atheist who has not heard
"sufficient" word of God to believe.
Oh please. What would be "sufficient" short of them actually believing?
The Gospel is not that complex. Your average person can put it in a couple
of sentences.
Besides, "apistia" says nothing about applying to all regardless of
circumstances. It denotes only the epistemic state of lacking trust in
something, with no implication whatsoever as to the reason for that lack.
Apethia is unwillingness to be persuaded, wilful unbeleif which
opposes itself; hence unbelief in action, disobedience, restricted to
those who have heard and know the truth.
More crap. The concept it denotes is restricted to having heard,
understanding what has been heard, and rejecting it. There is nothing about
knowing the truth in the denotation of the word. Apparently it's not just
the Bible that you can't resist twisting. Greek lexicons get the same
treatment, eh?
It is a stronger term than
apistia and denotes an actual manifestation of it.
It's not "stronger", for that implies the two words denote the same concept,
only to a different degree. That's not the case between "apistia" and
"apeitheia". The latter simply includes in the concept it denotes an
attitude of certainty in unbelief that is missing from the former.
The difference is the difference between lacking belief that A is true for
no particular reason (or at least where no particular reason is specified in
the context), and believing that A is false because one believes B, and B
entails A is false. One can lack belief in A without believing A false, by
simply being agnostic regarding A. One cannot be "apeitheia" regarding A if
one is agnostic about A... at least not in any case where one is sane. So
it is the denyer of A's truth that is "apeitheia", and the agnostic
regarding A that is "apistia". That's the difference between them.
Carl fits into
this category because he has heard enough of the word of God but
refuses to believe and act upon it.
Perhaps so, but never in any post of his I've read where he is responding to
you. You, otoh, are constantly denying God's word in one fashion or
another.
Both words are used twice in Romans 11. Apistia is used twice in
verses 20 and 23 to speak about unbelief due to ignorance. Verses 30
and 32 speak about unbeleif that is due to apathy. Paul speaking to
the Gentiles said:
Rom 11:13-34 KJV
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the
Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my
flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,
what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the
root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild
olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the
root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest
not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be
graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief [Gr. apistia] they were broken off, and
thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Let's all remember here what you just argued above: "Apistia is
faithlessness, untrustiness, distrust, unbelief, apply to
all without regard to their circumstances or opportunities of knowing the
truth. An African Pygmy who had never heard of God would fit into this
category. So would an agnostic or an atheist who has not heard
"sufficient" word of God to believe."
Not to belabor the obvious here, but I don't think Paul is talking about
African pygmies at verse 20, nor is he thinking "agnostic or an atheist who
has not heard 'sufficient' word of God to believe". You know, just once I'd
like to see you get through an entire post without stepping on your own
shoelaces.
If your understading of the difference between the Greek "apistia" and
"apeitheia" held any water whatsoever, Paul would have had to use
"apeitheia" at verse 20, rather than his actual choice of "apistia". For we
are told over and over again in both the Old and New Testaments of the
obstinancy of Israel. Except God doesn't call them obstinate. He calls
them "stiff-necked". Same thing.
"I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a
stiff-necked people. Ex 32:9 (NIV)
For the LORD had said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites, 'You are a
stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might
destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with
you.'" Ex 33:5 (NIV)
Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD
your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked
people. Deut 9:6 (NIV)
For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been
rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much
more will you rebel after I die! Deut 31:27 (NIV)
Add to the above 1 Ki. 17:14, 2 Ch 30:8, 36:13, Ne. 9:16, 17, 29; Jer. 7:26,
17:23, and 19:15. And we could, in a pinch, throw in Acts 7:51 to boot!
I mean, it's almost laughable how wrong you are in this post! It's like
being treated to Charlie Chaplin's version of a New Testament Greek scholar.
Real slapstick.
Hope that helps.
Bob
Yeah, Bob, it always helps when you talk or write out your thoughts. If
there was ever any doubt that you're a pretender to the Christian faith and
knowledge of the Bible, you remove it every time you post. You know why I
respect Jerry much more than I do you? Because he's not pretending to be
something he isn't. He's lost his faith, and it's left him with a bit of a
bad taste in his mouth concerning Christianity, and he wears the truth right
out there on his sleeve where everyone can see what motivates him. Not you.
You hide in the dark, and wait for the unsuspecting and weak to wander by.
You I have no respect for at all.
Chuck Stamford
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
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| User: "Chuck Stamford" |
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| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
28 Dec 2007 09:24:59 AM |
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"Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> wrote in message
news:s0t9n35bb4h0bopaurfh3t83p5avhb69ht@4ax.com...
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
Explains a lot about you, Bob.
.
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| User: "Bible Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
28 Dec 2007 11:20:52 AM |
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On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 07:24:59 -0800, "Chuck Stamford"
<shell__stamford@cox.net> wrote:
"Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> wrote in message
news:s0t9n35bb4h0bopaurfh3t83p5avhb69ht@4ax.com...
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
Explains a lot about you, Bob.
Thank you.
Not being full of trick and duplicity as you are and having a
straightforward and honest nature; it is hard for me to understand why
peo9pole such as yourself can be fooled so easily. Fortunately, the
word of God tells me why.
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
.
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| User: "Chuck Stamford" |
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| Title: Re: Is Carl Becoming a Heretic and an Enemy of God's Chosen People? |
29 Dec 2007 01:03:42 AM |
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"Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> wrote in message
news:o0can35bbv695dtr7uf0809pdc7a3it8j0@4ax.com...
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 07:24:59 -0800, "Chuck Stamford"
<shell__stamford@cox.net> wrote:
"Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> wrote in message
news:s0t9n35bb4h0bopaurfh3t83p5avhb69ht@4ax.com...
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
Explains a lot about you, Bob.
Thank you.
No problem
.
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