| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Transition Zone" |
| Date: |
26 Feb 2004 07:28:19 AM |
| Object: |
is it true ?? |
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
Since the cart never comes before the horse, it's the one not-very-
coincidental-appearing act of nature that makes one wonder about the
New Testament.
Well. The other quote in all of the testaments is: Isaiah 40:22: "It
is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants
thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a
curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either. Makes
you wonder if it isn't all true after all.
Pretty scary.
.
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 10:46:43 PM |
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CHRIST IN TALMUD
The Life of Christ
The Talmud teaches that Jesus Christ was illegitimate and was conceived
during menstruation; that he had the soul of Esau; that he was a fool, a
conjurer, a seducer; that he was crucified, buried in hell and set up as an
idol ever since by his followers.
1. ILLEGITIMATE AND CONCEIVED DURING MENSTRUATION
The following is narrated in the Tract Kallah, 1b:
"Once when the Elders were seated at the Gate, two young men passed by, one
of whom had his covered, the other with his head bare. Rabbi Eliezer
remarked that the one in his bare head was illegitimate, a mamzer. Rabbi
Jehoschua said that he was conceived during menstruation, ben niddah. Rabbi
Akibah, however, said that he was both. Whereupon the others asked Rabbi
Akibah why he dared to contradict his colleagues. He answered that he could
prove what he said. He went therefore to the boy's mother whom he saw
sitting in the market place selling vegetables and said to her: "My
daughter, if you will answer truthfully what I am going to ask you, I
promise that you will be saved in the next life." She demanded that he would
swear to keep his promise, and Rabbi Akibah did so - but with his lips only,
for in his heart he invalidated his oath. Then he said: "Tell me, what kind
of son is this of yours"? To which she replied: "The day I was married I was
having menstruation, and because of this my husband left me. But an evil
spirit came and slept with me and from this intercourse my son was born to
me." Thus it was proved that this young man was not only illegitimate but
also conceived during the menstruation of his mother. And when his
questioners heard this they declared: "Great indeed was Rabbi Akibah when he
corrected his Elders"! And they exclaimed: "Blessed be the Lord God of
Israel who revealed his secret to Rabbi Akibah the son of Joseph"!
That the Jews understand this story to refer to Jesus and his mother, Mary,
is clearly demonstrated in their book Toldath Jeschu - "The Generations of
Jesus" - where the birth of our Savior is narrated in almost the same words.
Another story of this kind is narrated in Sanhedrin, 67a:
"Of all who are guilty of death by the Law, he alone is caught by a ruse.
How is it done? They light a candle in an inner room and place witnesses in
an adjoining room outside where they can see him and hear his voice, but
where they cannot be seen by him. Then the one whom he tried to seduce says
to him "Please repeat here privately what you told me before." If the
seducer repeats what he said, the others ask him "But how shall we leave our
God who is in heaven and serve idols?" If the seducer repents, then all is
well.But if he says "This is our duty and it is right for us to do so," then
the witnesses outside, who have heard him, bring him before the judge and
stone him to death. This is what they did to the son of Stadi in Lud, and
they hanged him on the eve of the Passover. Forthis son of Stada was the son
of Pandira. For Rabbi Chasda tells us that Pandira was the husband of Stada,
his mother, and he lived during the time Paphus the son of Jehuda. But his
mother was stada, Mary of Magdala (a ladies' hairdresser) who, as it is said
in Pumbadita, deserted her husband."
The meaning of this is that his Mary was called Stada, that is, a
prostitute, because, according to what was taught at Pumbadita, she left her
husband and commited adultery. This is also recorded in the Jerusalem Talmud
and by Maimonides.
That the mention here is of Mary, the mother of Jesus, is verified in the
Tract Chagigah, 4b:
"When Rabbi Bibhai was visited once by the Death Angel (the devil), the
latter said to his assistant: "Go and bring to me Mary the hairdresser"
(that is, kill her). He went and brought Mary the children's hairdresser -
in place of the other Mary."
A marginal note explains this passage as follows:
"This story of Mary the Ladies' hairdresser happened under the Second
Temple. She was the mother of Peloni, "that man," as he is called in the
tract Schabbath."
In Schabbath the passage referred to says:
"Rabbi Elizer said to the Elders: "Did not the son Stada practice Egyptian
magic by cutting it into his flesh?" They replied: "He was a fool, and we do
not pay attention to what fools do. The son of Stada, Pandra's son, etc." as
above in Sanhedrin, 67a.
This magic of the son of Stada is explained as follows in the book Beth
Jacobh, fol. 127 a:
"The Magi, before they left Egypt, took special care not to put their magic
in writing lest other peoples might come to learn it But he devised a new
way by which he inscribed it on his skin, or made cuts in his skin and
inserted it there and which, when the wounds healed up, did not show what
they meant."
Buxtorf says:
"There is little doubt who this Ben Stada was, or who the Jews understood
him to be. Although the Rabbis in their additions to the Talmud try to hide
their malice and say that it is not Jesus Christ, their deceit is plainly
evident, and many things prove that they wrote and understood all these
things about him. In the first place, they also call him the son of Pandira.
Jesus the Nazarene is thus called in other passages of the Talmud where
express mention is made of Jesus the son of Pandira. St. John Damascene
also, in his Genealogy of Christ, mentions Panthera and the Son of Panthera.
"Secondly, this Stada is said to be Mary, and this Mary the mother of Peloni
"that certain one," by which without doubt Jesus is meant. For in this way
they were accustomed to cover up his name because they were afraid to
mention it. If we had copies of the original manuscripts they would
certainly prove this. And this also was the name of the mother of Jesus the
Nazarene.
"Thirdly, he is called the Seducer of the People. The Gospels testify that
Jesus was called this by the Jews, and their writings to this day are proof
that they still call him by this name.
"Fourthly, he is called "the one who was hanged," which clearly refers to
the crucifixion of Christ, especially since a reference to the time "on the
eve of the Passover" is added, which coincides with the time of the
crucifixion of Jesus. In Sanhedrin they wrote as follows: "On the eve of the
Passover they hanged Jesus"
"Fifthly, as to what the Jerusalem Talmud says about the two disciples of
the Elders who were sent as witnesses to spy on him, and who were afterwards
brought forward as witnesses against him: This refers to the two "false
witnesses" of whom the Evangelists Matthew and Luke make mention.
"Sixthly, concerning what they say about the son of Stada that he practiced
Egyptian magical arts by cutting into his flesh: the same accusation is made
against Christ in their hostile book Toldoth Jeschu.
"Lastly, the time corresponds. For it is said that this son of Stada lived
in the days of Paphus the son of Jehuda, who was a contemporary of Rabbi
Akibah. Akibah, however, lived at the time of the Ascension of Christ, and
for some time after. Mary is also said to have lived under the Second
Temple. All this clearly proves that they secretly and blasphemously
understand this son of Stada to be Jesus Christ the son of Mary.
"Other circumstances may seem to contradict this. But that is nothing new in
Jewish writings and is done on purpose so that Christians may not easily
detect their trickery."
2. Furthermore, "In the secret books, which are not permitted to fall easily
into the hands of Christians, they say that the soul of Esau came into
Christ, that he was therefore evil and that he was Esau himself."
3. By some he is called a FOOL and INSANE
In Schabbath, 104b:
"They, [the Elders] said to him [Eliezer]: "He was a fool, and no one pays
attention to fools."
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| User: "cindys" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 08:23:18 AM |
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"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
---------
Is it true?? that you keep posting all this off-topic Jesus junk to the
Jewish group even though it is offensive and rude to Jews and belongs in the
Christian groups?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
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| User: "John Fraud Kerry" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 08:35:58 AM |
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"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:qjn%b.92362$%72.90301@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
---------
Is it true?? that you keep posting all this off-topic Jesus junk to the
Jewish group even though it is offensive and rude to Jews and belongs in
the
Christian groups?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
What, the Jews don't believe in the Old Testament any more?? He had quoted
an Old Testament passage, one about the circle the Earth makes as it
processes through the sky. Are you suggesting that today's Jews don't think
that passage is found in the Old Testament?? Are you saying you think the
Old Testament is talking about Jesus in that passage???
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| User: "Transition Zone" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
28 Feb 2004 12:39:49 PM |
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"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:<qjn%b.92362$%72.90301@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
---------
Is it true?? that you keep posting all this off-topic Jesus junk to the
Jewish group even though it is offensive and rude to Jews
It is not offensive to anyone except for you.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
28 Feb 2004 03:05:15 PM |
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On 28 Feb 2004 10:39:49 -0800, (Transition Zone)
wrote:
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:<qjn%b.92362$%72.90301@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Transition Zone" < > wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
---------
Is it true?? that you keep posting all this off-topic Jesus junk to the
Jewish group even though it is offensive and rude to Jews
It is not offensive to anyone except for you.
Stop lying. It is offensive to all non-Christians when you rub your
faeces in our faces.
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| User: "Transition Zone" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
28 Feb 2004 08:33:21 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<li0240lct1l4k7t7u8q0qal4g8aqq5u4tu@4ax.com>...
On 28 Feb 2004 10:39:49 -0800, (Transition Zone)
wrote:
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:<qjn%b.92362$%72.90301@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Transition Zone" < > wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
---------
Is it true?? that you keep posting all this off-topic Jesus junk to the
Jewish group even though it is offensive and rude to Jews
It is not offensive to anyone except for you.
Stop lying. It is offensive to all non-Christians when you rub your
faeces in our faces.
Any proof I did that ?? I only got my info from CNN. Sorry about any offense.
www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/01/25/herod.autopsy
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 10:50:42 AM |
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"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
And the proof of this is....where?
Since the cart never comes before the horse,
Of course it can.
Everything the Xians say that Jesus did to "fulfill the requirements for
being the Messiah" are actually just things culled out of the Torah that
they applied to Jesus afterwards. And most of them had nothing to do
w/Moshiach.
Susan
it's the one not-very-
coincidental-appearing act of nature that makes one wonder about the
New Testament.
Well. The other quote in all of the testaments is: Isaiah 40:22: "It
is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants
thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a
curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either. Makes
you wonder if it isn't all true after all.
Pretty scary.
.
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| User: "Transition Zone" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 06:52:54 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<Ctp%b.20188$fL4.7434@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
And the proof of this is....
- sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Ramah.htm
- ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Courses/NewTest/Study/nt_s3s01.html
- religiouslife.stanford.edu/uploads/documents/csm_02_12_hope.pdf - 30k
- www.inform.umd.edu/StudentOrgs/ubf/matthew/matt2.htm -
- www.wbu.edu/ak/faculty/faculty_bibs_files/ashley/Session%201.ppt
- courses.indwes.edu/bil102/abio12.htm
- www.pitts.emory.edu/dia/detail5.cfm?ID=-1229996924
- www.physics.umd.edu/robot/maga/herod.html
- faculty.rmc.edu/gspagna/public_html/Star%20of%20Bethlehem.html
- www.iuinfo.indiana.edu/ocm/packages/holiday/gospel.htm
-
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| User: "Brenda Nelson" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
27 Feb 2004 12:40:37 PM |
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(Transition Zone) wrote in message news:<3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com>...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
There is no record outside of the Bible of the slaughter of the
innocents. You'd think that *somebody* would notice a little thing
like thousands of dead babies, wouldn't you?
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
Chief Wranger and Ramrod Emeritus
(and Professor of Feline Thermometrics)
EAC Equine Transportation Command/Carne Seca Division
in the Prefecture of Baja, Arizona
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| User: "John Fraud Kerry" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
27 Feb 2004 02:18:12 PM |
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"Brenda Nelson" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote in message
news:311596a5.0402271040.4cc26efe@posting.google.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote in message
news:<3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com>...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
There is no record outside of the Bible of the slaughter of the
innocents. You'd think that *somebody* would notice a little thing
like thousands of dead babies, wouldn't you?
Somebody did. That's why the event is recorded in the Bible.
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| User: "Transition Zone" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
28 Feb 2004 12:38:05 PM |
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(Brenda Nelson) wrote in message news:<311596a5.0402271040.4cc26efe@posting.google.com>...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote in message news:<3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com>...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
There is no record outside of the Bible of the slaughter of the
innocents. You'd think that *somebody* would notice a little thing
like thousands of dead babies, wouldn't you?
Well Mr Professor, maybe you should tell CNN that:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/01/25/herod.autopsy/
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
28 Feb 2004 12:48:04 PM |
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On 28 Feb 2004 10:38:05 -0800, (Transition Zone)
wrote:
skyeyes@dakotacom.net (Brenda Nelson) wrote in message news:<311596a5.0402271040.4cc26efe@posting.google.com>...
(Transition Zone) wrote in message news:<3f224cda.0402260528.5113eb33@posting.google.com>...
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
There is no record outside of the Bible of the slaughter of the
innocents. You'd think that *somebody* would notice a little thing
like thousands of dead babies, wouldn't you?
Well Mr Professor, maybe you should tell CNN that:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/01/25/herod.autopsy/
Maybe you should try re-reading the article for comprehension, and
note that the references to the purported "Slaughter of the Innocents"
are taken exclusively from the Bible.
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| User: "chris" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 11:28:08 AM |
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(Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth. Many other passages describe this flat
Earth as having four corners, but a few, like this, describe it as
round.
Chris
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| User: "John Fraud Kerry" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 11:32:25 AM |
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"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
BTW, why do you think the Earth is flat?
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| User: "Sara Brum" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 02:25:23 PM |
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"John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com> wrote in message
news:I4q%b.25199$AL.466446@attbi_s03...
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
That would be astounding considering that those "2 or 3000 year-old men
wearing togas", or at least those in positions of power or influence,
believed in a geocentric universe - a belief that persisted until only a few
centuries ago. Contrary beliefs were usually persecuted. Here are a few
notable examples:
Aristarchus of Samos (c. 310-230 BC)
A Greek astronomer, first to maintain that the Earth rotates and revolves
around the Sun. On this ground, Cleanthes the Stoic declared that he ought
to be indicted for impiety.
Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus is said to be the founder of modern astronomy. After studying at
Cracow University, he was appointed as a canon in the cathedral of
Frauenburg, where he made his naked-eye celestial observations, and
developed his own theories about planetary motions, contrary to the accepted
Aristotelean philosophy. His works caused quite a stir when they were
finally published, but he was no longer alive to see it.
In 1616, Pope Paul V ordered Cardinal Robert Bellarmine to have the Sacred
Congregation of the Index decide whether the Copernican theory was simlpy a
mathematical tool to calculate planetary positions, or a heretical
proposition of a model for physical reality in which the planets revolve
around the Sun. The cardinals of the Inquisition met on 24 February, 1616
and took evidence from theological experts. They condemned the teachings of
Copernicus.
Giordano Bruno (1548-1600)
Bruno was one of the new breed of scientists who shunned the philosophy of
Aristotle, and thus ran afoul of the doctrines of the church. At first he
was part of the church (entirely necessary in those days if one was to
receive any kind of an education), a Dominican, but not for long. He fled
Italy for Geneva and then went to England, where he taught for a while at
Oxford. In 1585, he returned to Europe and travelled extensively, seemingly
to evade pursuit by the church. In 1592, Bruno was arrested by the
ecclesiastical authorities (the Inquisition) and put on trial for his
beliefs, which were based on the real world such as those of Copernicus, and
which he would not recant. After a seven year trial in Rome, Bruno was
burned at the stake for heresy.
Galileo (1564-1642)
In 1609 Galileo constructed the first astronomical telescope, which he used
to discover the four largest satellites of Jupiter and the stellar
composition of the Milky Way, and in 1632 he published his "Dialogue
Concerning the Two Chief World Systems - Ptolematic and Copernican ", a work
that upheld the Copernican system rather than the Ptolematic system. In
1633, he was brought before the Inquisition in Rome. Under the threat of
torture and death, Galileo was made to renounce all his beliefs and writings
supporting the Copernican theory, and was thereafter sentenced to
imprisonment for the remainder of his days. His sentence was carried out
somewhat sympathetically and it amounted to house arrest rather than a
prison sentence. He had to spend the rest of his life watched over by
officers from the Inquisition.
On 31 October 1992, 350 years after Galileo's death, Pope John Paul II gave
an address on behalf of the Catholic Church in which he admitted that errors
had been made by the theological advisors in the case of Galileo. He
declared the Galileo case closed, but he did not admit that the Church was
wrong to convict Galileo on a charge of heresy because of his belief that
the Earth rotates round the sun.
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| User: "John Fraud Kerry" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 03:00:42 PM |
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"Sara Brum" <sarabrum@medulla.com> wrote in message
news:c1lkok$1ie0q2$1@ID-216353.news.uni-berlin.de...
"John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com> wrote in message
news:I4q%b.25199$AL.466446@attbi_s03...
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,
and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
That would be astounding considering that those "2 or 3000 year-old men
wearing togas", or at least those in positions of power or influence,
believed in a geocentric universe
Did they? That's the very point we are discussing here. You CLAIM that,
yet the EVIDENCE, as mentioned in the Bible verse quoted above, seems to
indicate quite the opposite of your claim.
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| User: "Sara Brum" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 03:29:56 PM |
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"John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com> wrote in message
news:_7t%b.402975$I06.4380209@attbi_s01...
"Sara Brum" <sarabrum@medulla.com> wrote in message
news:c1lkok$1ie0q2$1@ID-216353.news.uni-berlin.de...
"John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com> wrote in message
news:I4q%b.25199$AL.466446@attbi_s03...
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,
and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out
the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell
in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing
togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the
Earth
traces out.
That would be astounding considering that those "2 or 3000 year-old men
wearing togas", or at least those in positions of power or influence,
believed in a geocentric universe
Did they? That's the very point we are discussing here. You CLAIM
that,
yet the EVIDENCE, as mentioned in the Bible verse quoted above, seems to
indicate quite the opposite of your claim.
What evidence? You can't use a quote in the Bible as evidence that your
interpretation of that very quote must be correct. I've given you evidence
to support my claim. You've given me your claim to support your claim.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 06:30:11 PM |
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"John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com> wrote in news:I4q%b.25199$AL.466446
@attbi_s03:
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,
and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
Why would you think that?
BTW, why do you think the Earth is flat?
The bible implies that in some versus and gives an ambiguous account in
others. Many of the ancient peoples believed the earth was flat.
Certainly the greeks had figured out not only that the earth was
spherical in shape but had even calculated its' diameter to a pretty good
accuracy considering the tools at their disposal (Eratosthenes).
Llanzlan.
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| User: "chris" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 08:47:46 PM |
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"John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com> wrote:
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote:
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
That would not make sense in this context. One sitting somewhere
along Earth's orbit would not see it's inhabitants "as grasshoppers"
(much of the time Earth itself would not even be visible as it would
be on the other side of the sun or lost in its glare).
However, to an observer sitting on a rigid dome a mile or so above a
flat Earth, they would.
The Hebrew word in question here is 'chuwg', translated above as
'circle'. A better translation would be 'circuit' or 'boundary'. To
early observers, all celestial objects were thought to travel on or
hang from this dome. Jesus thought the stars were hung from this dome
and predicted that they would one day fall to Earth. The objects that
'travel' independently of the stars (namely the sun, moon, and
planets) are all viewed very near the plane of the ecliptic. That is,
they all trace virtually the same path in the sky, an arc, or a
circuit, or a circle...
This dome is indeed the 'firmament' that god built in Genesis 1.
Again, the Hebrew 'rakia' translated as 'firmament' actually means
'thin metal plate or bowl'.
This is the dome that held up all that water before the supposed
Flood. Besides the water, the lightning and wind of Psalms 135:7, and
the fire and brimstone of Luke 17:29 God tells Job in 38:22 that He
has a reserve of snow and hail stored up there for future use. He
looses these elements on us by opening various windows and doors in
this dome, as in Genesis 7:11, Deuteronomy 28:12, 2 Chronicles 6:26,
Psalms 78:23, Revelations 11:6 and others.
BTW, why do you think the Earth is flat?
I don't, but the writers of the Bible did. Don't you remember when
Satan took Jesus to a mountain so high that they could see all the
kingdoms of Earth? (The tree in Daniel's dream must have been on top
of this mountain, despite being above the tree line, or he would not
have had a similar view :-)
Chris
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| User: "SmirkS" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 01:40:28 PM |
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John Fraud Kerry wrote:
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
good for you. that's what you think. congratulations.
we're arguing about what may have happened thousands of years ago. remember
the kindergarten experiment where the teacher whispers a long sentence into
the first student's ear, and then the message is whispered from student to
student, until the last one says what he thinks was whispered to him?
that's the historical process in action.
BTW, jesus is not from nazareth. there wasn't a place called nazareth at
that time. he may have been a nazarene, however.
if this statement is true, then it invalidates anything in the bible from
being factual.
chew on that one for awhile.
--
TheTruthHurts.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 05:30:19 PM |
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On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:32:25 GMT, "John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com>
wrote:
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
Please explain how you derive that conclusion.
BTW, why do you think the Earth is flat?
He doesn't,but then you knew that anyway. So why lie about him, to
him?
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| User: "John Fraud Kerry" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 06:08:42 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:9a0t309ajtbfv0k8q9ttmg8l38a0g0kr8q@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:32:25 GMT, "John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com>
wrote:
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
Please explain how you derive that conclusion.
Nope, sorry, not gonna do that for ya, Christopher. You failed to demand an
explanation from the poster "chris" when HE baldly asserted the verse is
referring to a "skydome" and a "flat Earth", so you're not entitled to
demand explanations from anyone else concerning THEIR assertions.
You lose.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 08:03:43 PM |
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"John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com> wrote in
news:aUv%b.129518$jk2.540691@attbi_s53:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:9a0t309ajtbfv0k8q9ttmg8l38a0g0kr8q@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:32:25 GMT, "John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com>
wrote:
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the
earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that
stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out
as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing
togas would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space,
either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the
skydome that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the
Earth traces out.
Please explain how you derive that conclusion.
Nope, sorry, not gonna do that for ya, Christopher. You failed to
demand an explanation from the poster "chris" when HE baldly asserted
the verse is referring to a "skydome" and a "flat Earth", so you're
not entitled to demand explanations from anyone else concerning THEIR
assertions.
You lose.
Good to see that you realise that your point of view is an unsupported
assertion.
Llanzlan.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 08:03:41 PM |
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:08:42 GMT, "John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com>
wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:9a0t309ajtbfv0k8q9ttmg8l38a0g0kr8q@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:32:25 GMT, "John Fraud Kerry" <JFK@DNC.com>
wrote:
"chris" <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:6kas30hfaqri06ukrm278orkseoon1091l@4ax.com...
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
Isaiah 40:22: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and
the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the
heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
It's quite coincidental, since the verse is referring to the skydome
that covered the flat Earth.
No, I think it's referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth
traces out.
Please explain how you derive that conclusion.
Nope, sorry, not gonna do that for ya, Christopher.
Because you can't.
You failed to demand an
explanation from the poster "chris" when HE baldly asserted the verse is
referring to a "skydome" and a "flat Earth", so you're not entitled to
demand explanations from anyone else concerning THEIR assertions.
***** - I've seen it (can't remember where though). It's not my
problem. It's one of the many places where the book is just plain
wrong.
But in any case, YOU tacitly accepted that by saying you interpreted
it as "referring to the roughly circular orbit that the Earth traces
out".
Try not to make your attempted copouts so transparent.
You lose.
Translation: Kerry doesn't realise how transparent his copouts are.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 05:16:02 PM |
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(Transition Zone) wrote:
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
Since the cart never comes before the horse, it's the one not-very-
coincidental-appearing act of nature that makes one wonder about the
New Testament.
Well. The other quote in all of the testaments is: Isaiah 40:22: "It
is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants
thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a
curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either. Makes
you wonder if it isn't all true after all.
Pretty scary.
I am sorry - I appear to have missed the point that everyone else seems to
have grasped. You ask in your subject, "is it true". You say you wonder
whether it was coincidence that Herod etc etc - although I wonder why you
would wonder that since the Bible (bearing in mind its unreliability as a
historical source) actually says clearly that that was why he did it.
You go on to talk about people in togas knowing what the world looked
like. That they knew the Earth was round was no surprise - the old 'ship
disappearing over the horizon' thing usually clinches that argument, if
the circular shadow of Earth on the Moon during lunar eclipses does not do
it for you. (What puzzles me more is how they came to be 2-3,000 years
old.)
But I have to confess I am at a loss on what your question actually is.
Is WHAT true? Is WHAT a coincidence? And what do the toga guys have to
do with anything? What did I miss?
--
Midwinter
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| User: "chris" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 09:30:30 PM |
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Midwinter <solstice688@TAKEYOURSPAMANDhotmail.com> wrote:
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
(What puzzles me more is how they came to be 2-3,000 years old.)
Perhaps they're the Nephites?
Moqulah does sound like a Mormon name...
Chris
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| User: "Transition Zone" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
27 Feb 2004 07:07:28 AM |
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chris <www211@infionline.net> wrote in message news:<abet309r1ed0ub3usn0mabll1mn7tm8169@4ax.com>...
Midwinter <solstice688@TAKEYOURSPAMANDhotmail.com> wrote:
mogulah@hotmail.com (Transition Zone) wrote:
It's not very coincidental that 2 or 3000 year-old men wearing togas
would know how the earth looked as it orbited in space, either.
(What puzzles me more is how they came to be 2-3,000 years old.)
Perhaps they're the Nephites?
Moqulah does sound like a Mormon name...
With a "g", not a "q", it means that army life is an afghan *****.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
26 Feb 2004 07:52:31 PM |
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In alt.atheism on 26 Feb 2004 05:28:19 -0800,
(Transition Zone) let us all know that:
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
That event never happened. It is only recorded in Luke, and
NOWHERE ELSE AT ALL IN ANY OTHER BOOK ANYWHERE.
Not even Josephus mentions it. It never happened.
Since the cart never comes before the horse, it's the one not-very-
coincidental-appearing act of nature that makes one wonder about the
New Testament.
Well. The other quote in all of the testaments is: Isaiah 40:22: "It
is he that sitteth upon the circle
Circles are flat. The earth is not.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Transition Zone" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
28 Feb 2004 12:35:08 PM |
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Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message news:<tk8t30972actfp00hhq9mmtf5bmk0cccbb@4ax.com>...
In alt.atheism on 26 Feb 2004 05:28:19 -0800,
(Transition Zone) let us all know that:
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
That event never happened. It is only recorded in Luke, and
NOWHERE ELSE AT ALL IN ANY OTHER BOOK ANYWHERE.
Not even Josephus mentions it. It never happened.
Well Mr Professor. CNN says otherwise:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/01/25/herod.autopsy/
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: is it true ?? |
29 Feb 2004 01:55:17 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on 28 Feb 2004 10:35:08 -0800, a stranger called
by some (Transition Zone) came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message news:<tk8t30972actfp00hhq9mmtf5bmk0cccbb@4ax.com>...
In alt.atheism on 26 Feb 2004 05:28:19 -0800,
(Transition Zone) let us all know that:
Well, I guess I have wondered whether it was pure coincidence or not
that King Herod tried to kill all of the kids born at the same time
Jesus was - in an attempt to kill Jesus.
That event never happened. It is only recorded in Luke, and
NOWHERE ELSE AT ALL IN ANY OTHER BOOK ANYWHERE.
Not even Josephus mentions it. It never happened.
Well Mr Professor. CNN says otherwise:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/01/25/herod.autopsy/
Here are the only passages in that article refering to the massacre:
"A classic "bad boy" of the Bible, scholars believe the headstrong
Herod died in 4 B.C. -- shortly after ordering the so-called
"Slaughter of the Innocents" recorded in the New Testament.
"After hearing of the birth of Jesus, called the newborn King of the
Jews by the three visiting wise men, Herod became enraged and tried to
kill him off.
""Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was
exceedingly angry," the book of Matthew recounts. "He sent forth and
put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all
its districts, from two years old and under."
"But while biblical scholars could explain these deaths, historians
had no clear explanation as to what killed Herod -- except for a few
details laid out by Jewish scholar Flavius Josephus. "
There isn't one word there about any evidence outside Matthew. In
fact, there are two refences to the Bible, and nothing else.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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