Religions > Bible > Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell?
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Bible John, BA" |
| Date: |
08 Aug 2005 08:00:16 PM |
| Object: |
Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
I dont know Dave if you are a brother in the Lord or a spiritual
terrorist that I need and have been fighting against. John MacArthur
gave me some advice on dealing with terrorists at the Shepherds
conference this year (Luke 11:37ff). Jason also told me that you were
not a brother and you refuse to tell us your doctrine so I assumed you
were not saved, but maybe we were wrong. If it can be proven that you
do accept historic doctrine, then I will very very publicly apologize
for my deceptions about you on my unbeliever page and my general
attitude about you which I would be wrong.
<Of course. Expressed in three Persons.
Now if you don't believe that, then please explain
how "the Spirit of God moved over the face of
the waters" during the creation, if God the Father
was seated in Heaven and it is He and He alone
that make up the Godhead?
The Scriptures also tell us clearly that it
is a "Godhead".>
It appears from above that you accept the trinity or do you not?
Pastor Dave can you please answer these questions.
1. How does one become saved? What about those that claim that they
said the sinners prayer, yet lived a life contrary to Christ. Are they
saved? Why do we need to be saved? Are all sinners?
2. Are we saved by Grace or works, or both?
3. Did Jesus arise from the dead on the third day, and why was he
crucified?
4. Was Jesus Christ God, or was he created?
5. Is the Godhead made up of the father, son and Holy Spirit?
6. What version of the bible is inspired? Some believe that the KJV is
the only inspired word of God. Do you believe this? Do you also
believe in the Verbal plenary dictation view? This view holds 2 Tim
3:16 as literal. While the liberal christians hold that only the
"ideas" in scripture are inspired by God, yet not all words are.
That should be enough for the essentials to the faith. Non essential
issues such as sign gifts, theology of women in ministry, theology of
calling, theology of the day of worship, calvinism vs. arminism,
philosophy of ministry, phil of Youth or adult ministry, phil of music
and such are not essential core historic doctrines that we may disagree
or agree on. But most of my disagreements here is in regard to the
essentials to the faith. Rarely is there a christian to christian
debate in these boards. At Simpson I was involved in all kinds of these
kinds of debates with students and pastors.
Thank you Pastor Dave
John
--
BA Church Education Ministries AS Business/IT specialist
CERM- Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/unbeliever_list.htm
2 Tim 4:2
AIM: Crucifyself03
Spelling and grammar errors left
in for those that
need their life fulfilled by correcting me
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|
|
| User: "Bible Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
08 Aug 2005 08:42:21 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:00:16 -0700, "Bible John, BA"
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
I dont know Dave if you are a brother in the Lord or a spiritual
terrorist that I need and have been fighting against. John MacArthur
gave me some advice on dealing with terrorists at the Shepherds
conference this year (Luke 11:37ff). Jason also told me that you were
not a brother and you refuse to tell us your doctrine so I assumed you
were not saved, but maybe we were wrong. If it can be proven that you
do accept historic doctrine, then I will very very publicly apologize
for my deceptions about you on my unbeliever page and my general
attitude about you which I would be wrong.
<Of course. Expressed in three Persons.
Now if you don't believe that, then please explain
how "the Spirit of God moved over the face of
the waters" during the creation, if God the Father
was seated in Heaven and it is He and He alone
that make up the Godhead?
Wolfe that cried boy,
When are you going to learn how to read the Bible?
Genesis 1:1 KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 KJV
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the
face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the
waters.
Where does it say that God was seated in the heavens? Nowhere in the
Bible? The Bible does speak of the throne of God but only in Matthew,
Hebrews, and Revelation. The phrase is not used in the Old Testament.
Hebrews does say that Jesus is set down on the right hand of the
throne of God which is to say that he is in a position subordinate
with God and therefore not equal to God; but you don't want to hear
that do you?
Hebrews 12:2 KJV
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the
joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Verses two says the spirit of God moved upon the faces of the waters.
It does not say that God moved on the waters, but the spirit of God.
The word "of" shows the genitive of origin. The spirit that proceded
out from within God hovered upon the faces of the waters (face and
wates are both plural in the Hebrew). The word moved is from the
Hebrew word that means brooded or hovered as a bird over its nest. It
is the figure Anthropopatheia ascribing to God what belongs to
irrational creatures. It means that spirit - the invisible force -
exerted downward force upon the surfaces of the waters. If force is
exerted what has to happen; there has to be a corresponding reaction -
cause and effect. God's spirit moved the earth moved.
That did not occur during the creation. The creation occured in verse
one. Verse two is speaking about preparing the second earth to be
inhabited. How could there be a creation if the waters already
existed?
If you want it, I will give you access to pages on my web site that
explain the opening chapters of Genesis along with pages from the
Hebrew Interlinear that you may download for your personal use. Here
is the link: http://www.biblebob.net/Genesis/toc1.htm
The Scriptures also tell us clearly that it
is a "Godhead".>
That is a lie. The Scriptures do not say anything about a Godhead.
The KJV Bible incorrectly translates theotace Godhead but the other
versions translate it divine nature or deity. You need to stop being
a false teacher. I have already corrected you on this falsehood a
couple of times. So you are deliberately wrongly dividing the word of
truth.
It appears from above that you accept the trinity or do you not?
Pastor Dave can you please answer these questions.
1. How does one become saved? What about those that claim that they
said the sinners prayer, yet lived a life contrary to Christ. Are they
saved? Why do we need to be saved? Are all sinners?
2. Are we saved by Grace or works, or both?
3. Did Jesus arise from the dead on the third day, and why was he
crucified?
4. Was Jesus Christ God, or was he created?
5. Is the Godhead made up of the father, son and Holy Spirit?
6. What version of the bible is inspired? Some believe that the KJV is
the only inspired word of God. Do you believe this? Do you also
believe in the Verbal plenary dictation view? This view holds 2 Tim
3:16 as literal. While the liberal christians hold that only the
"ideas" in scripture are inspired by God, yet not all words are.
That should be enough for the essentials to the faith. Non essential
issues such as sign gifts, theology of women in ministry, theology of
calling, theology of the day of worship, calvinism vs. arminism,
philosophy of ministry, phil of Youth or adult ministry, phil of music
and such are not essential core historic doctrines that we may disagree
or agree on. But most of my disagreements here is in regard to the
essentials to the faith. Rarely is there a christian to christian
debate in these boards. At Simpson I was involved in all kinds of these
kinds of debates with students and pastors.
By the way, by what Scriptural authority did you come up with your
non-essentials list?
Thank you Pastor Dave
John
Non-commercial website where everything is free.
http://www.biblebob.net
BB
.
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| User: "jw" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
09 Aug 2005 10:21:54 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:42:21 GMT, Bible Bob
<biblebobnospam@biblebob.net> wrote:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:00:16 -0700, "Bible John, BA"
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
I dont know Dave if you are a brother in the Lord or a spiritual
terrorist that I need and have been fighting against. John MacArthur
gave me some advice on dealing with terrorists at the Shepherds
conference this year (Luke 11:37ff). Jason also told me that you were
not a brother and you refuse to tell us your doctrine so I assumed you
were not saved, but maybe we were wrong. If it can be proven that you
do accept historic doctrine, then I will very very publicly apologize
for my deceptions about you on my unbeliever page and my general
attitude about you which I would be wrong.
<Of course. Expressed in three Persons.
Now if you don't believe that, then please explain
how "the Spirit of God moved over the face of
the waters" during the creation, if God the Father
was seated in Heaven and it is He and He alone
that make up the Godhead?
Wolfe that cried boy,
When are you going to learn how to read the Bible?
And BB, when are YOU going to learn to read it? The JEsus we believe
in -- the ONe who died on the tree-- is NOT the god you believe in.
The Jesus we believe in is God in flesh.
The Jesus YOU believe in is an angel.
jw
Genesis 1:1 KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 KJV
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the
face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the
waters.
Where does it say that God was seated in the heavens? Nowhere in the
Bible? The Bible does speak of the throne of God but only in Matthew,
Hebrews, and Revelation. The phrase is not used in the Old Testament.
Hebrews does say that Jesus is set down on the right hand of the
throne of God which is to say that he is in a position subordinate
with God and therefore not equal to God; but you don't want to hear
that do you?
Hebrews 12:2 KJV
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the
joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Verses two says the spirit of God moved upon the faces of the waters.
It does not say that God moved on the waters, but the spirit of God.
The word "of" shows the genitive of origin. The spirit that proceded
out from within God hovered upon the faces of the waters (face and
wates are both plural in the Hebrew). The word moved is from the
Hebrew word that means brooded or hovered as a bird over its nest. It
is the figure Anthropopatheia ascribing to God what belongs to
irrational creatures. It means that spirit - the invisible force -
exerted downward force upon the surfaces of the waters. If force is
exerted what has to happen; there has to be a corresponding reaction -
cause and effect. God's spirit moved the earth moved.
That did not occur during the creation. The creation occured in verse
one. Verse two is speaking about preparing the second earth to be
inhabited. How could there be a creation if the waters already
existed?
If you want it, I will give you access to pages on my web site that
explain the opening chapters of Genesis along with pages from the
Hebrew Interlinear that you may download for your personal use. Here
is the link: http://www.biblebob.net/Genesis/toc1.htm
The Scriptures also tell us clearly that it
is a "Godhead".>
That is a lie. The Scriptures do not say anything about a Godhead.
The KJV Bible incorrectly translates theotace Godhead but the other
versions translate it divine nature or deity. You need to stop being
a false teacher. I have already corrected you on this falsehood a
couple of times. So you are deliberately wrongly dividing the word of
truth.
It appears from above that you accept the trinity or do you not?
Pastor Dave can you please answer these questions.
1. How does one become saved? What about those that claim that they
said the sinners prayer, yet lived a life contrary to Christ. Are they
saved? Why do we need to be saved? Are all sinners?
2. Are we saved by Grace or works, or both?
3. Did Jesus arise from the dead on the third day, and why was he
crucified?
4. Was Jesus Christ God, or was he created?
5. Is the Godhead made up of the father, son and Holy Spirit?
6. What version of the bible is inspired? Some believe that the KJV is
the only inspired word of God. Do you believe this? Do you also
believe in the Verbal plenary dictation view? This view holds 2 Tim
3:16 as literal. While the liberal christians hold that only the
"ideas" in scripture are inspired by God, yet not all words are.
That should be enough for the essentials to the faith. Non essential
issues such as sign gifts, theology of women in ministry, theology of
calling, theology of the day of worship, calvinism vs. arminism,
philosophy of ministry, phil of Youth or adult ministry, phil of music
and such are not essential core historic doctrines that we may disagree
or agree on. But most of my disagreements here is in regard to the
essentials to the faith. Rarely is there a christian to christian
debate in these boards. At Simpson I was involved in all kinds of these
kinds of debates with students and pastors.
By the way, by what Scriptural authority did you come up with your
non-essentials list?
Thank you Pastor Dave
John
Non-commercial website where everything is free.
http://www.biblebob.net
BB
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bible Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
09 Aug 2005 10:54:14 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:21:54 -0700, jw <jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:42:21 GMT, Bible Bob
<biblebobnospam@biblebob.net> wrote:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:00:16 -0700, "Bible John, BA"
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
I dont know Dave if you are a brother in the Lord or a spiritual
terrorist that I need and have been fighting against. John MacArthur
gave me some advice on dealing with terrorists at the Shepherds
conference this year (Luke 11:37ff). Jason also told me that you were
not a brother and you refuse to tell us your doctrine so I assumed you
were not saved, but maybe we were wrong. If it can be proven that you
do accept historic doctrine, then I will very very publicly apologize
for my deceptions about you on my unbeliever page and my general
attitude about you which I would be wrong.
<Of course. Expressed in three Persons.
Now if you don't believe that, then please explain
how "the Spirit of God moved over the face of
the waters" during the creation, if God the Father
was seated in Heaven and it is He and He alone
that make up the Godhead?
Wolfe that cried boy,
When are you going to learn how to read the Bible?
And BB, when are YOU going to learn to read it? The JEsus we believe
in -- the ONe who died on the tree-- is NOT the god you believe in.
The Jesus we believe in is God in flesh.
The Jesus YOU believe in is an angel.
jw
jw,
Not true. I believe in Jesus the Son of God the Creator, the one
named and spoken of in the Bible. You believe in the fairy tale
JeeZeus invented by the Nicean antichrists. You are right that I do
not believe that Jesus is God. God is God and Jesus Christ is Jesus
Christ. God is the Father and Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died
on a tree and was raised three days later from the dead (God can not
die) by God.
I do hope you will repent of your loyaty and service to men to worship
and serve the One True God Who is the Father of Jesus Christ whom the
Bible says is the Son of God.
Genesis 1:1 KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 KJV
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the
face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the
waters.
Where does it say that God was seated in the heavens? Nowhere in the
Bible? The Bible does speak of the throne of God but only in Matthew,
Hebrews, and Revelation. The phrase is not used in the Old Testament.
Hebrews does say that Jesus is set down on the right hand of the
throne of God which is to say that he is in a position subordinate
with God and therefore not equal to God; but you don't want to hear
that do you?
Hebrews 12:2 KJV
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the
joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Verses two says the spirit of God moved upon the faces of the waters.
It does not say that God moved on the waters, but the spirit of God.
The word "of" shows the genitive of origin. The spirit that proceded
out from within God hovered upon the faces of the waters (face and
wates are both plural in the Hebrew). The word moved is from the
Hebrew word that means brooded or hovered as a bird over its nest. It
is the figure Anthropopatheia ascribing to God what belongs to
irrational creatures. It means that spirit - the invisible force -
exerted downward force upon the surfaces of the waters. If force is
exerted what has to happen; there has to be a corresponding reaction -
cause and effect. God's spirit moved the earth moved.
That did not occur during the creation. The creation occured in verse
one. Verse two is speaking about preparing the second earth to be
inhabited. How could there be a creation if the waters already
existed?
If you want it, I will give you access to pages on my web site that
explain the opening chapters of Genesis along with pages from the
Hebrew Interlinear that you may download for your personal use. Here
is the link: http://www.biblebob.net/Genesis/toc1.htm
The Scriptures also tell us clearly that it
is a "Godhead".>
That is a lie. The Scriptures do not say anything about a Godhead.
The KJV Bible incorrectly translates theotace Godhead but the other
versions translate it divine nature or deity. You need to stop being
a false teacher. I have already corrected you on this falsehood a
couple of times. So you are deliberately wrongly dividing the word of
truth.
It appears from above that you accept the trinity or do you not?
Pastor Dave can you please answer these questions.
1. How does one become saved? What about those that claim that they
said the sinners prayer, yet lived a life contrary to Christ. Are they
saved? Why do we need to be saved? Are all sinners?
2. Are we saved by Grace or works, or both?
3. Did Jesus arise from the dead on the third day, and why was he
crucified?
4. Was Jesus Christ God, or was he created?
5. Is the Godhead made up of the father, son and Holy Spirit?
6. What version of the bible is inspired? Some believe that the KJV is
the only inspired word of God. Do you believe this? Do you also
believe in the Verbal plenary dictation view? This view holds 2 Tim
3:16 as literal. While the liberal christians hold that only the
"ideas" in scripture are inspired by God, yet not all words are.
That should be enough for the essentials to the faith. Non essential
issues such as sign gifts, theology of women in ministry, theology of
calling, theology of the day of worship, calvinism vs. arminism,
philosophy of ministry, phil of Youth or adult ministry, phil of music
and such are not essential core historic doctrines that we may disagree
or agree on. But most of my disagreements here is in regard to the
essentials to the faith. Rarely is there a christian to christian
debate in these boards. At Simpson I was involved in all kinds of these
kinds of debates with students and pastors.
By the way, by what Scriptural authority did you come up with your
non-essentials list?
Thank you Pastor Dave
John
Non-commercial website where everything is free.
http://www.biblebob.net
BB
Non-commercial website where everything is free.
http://www.biblebob.net
BB
.
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| User: "jw" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
11 Aug 2005 01:32:52 PM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:54:14 GMT, Bible Bob
<biblebobnospam@biblebob.net> wrote:
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:21:54 -0700, jw <jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:42:21 GMT, Bible Bob
<biblebobnospam@biblebob.net> wrote:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:00:16 -0700, "Bible John, BA"
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
I dont know Dave if you are a brother in the Lord or a spiritual
terrorist that I need and have been fighting against. John MacArthur
gave me some advice on dealing with terrorists at the Shepherds
conference this year (Luke 11:37ff). Jason also told me that you were
not a brother and you refuse to tell us your doctrine so I assumed you
were not saved, but maybe we were wrong. If it can be proven that you
do accept historic doctrine, then I will very very publicly apologize
for my deceptions about you on my unbeliever page and my general
attitude about you which I would be wrong.
<Of course. Expressed in three Persons.
Now if you don't believe that, then please explain
how "the Spirit of God moved over the face of
the waters" during the creation, if God the Father
was seated in Heaven and it is He and He alone
that make up the Godhead?
Wolfe that cried boy,
When are you going to learn how to read the Bible?
And BB, when are YOU going to learn to read it? The JEsus we believe
in -- the ONe who died on the tree-- is NOT the god you believe in.
The Jesus we believe in is God in flesh.
The Jesus YOU believe in is an angel.
jw
jw,
Not true. I believe in Jesus the Son of God the Creator, the one
named and spoken of in the Bible. You believe in the fairy tale
JeeZeus invented by the Nicean antichrists.
I believe in the Jesus of scripture; ALL of scripture. To believe in
teh Jesus you believe in, you simply must IGNORE too much scripture.
You are right that I do
not believe that Jesus is God.
Why not?
When Thomas saw Jesus' scars, he called Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD!"
Jesus was God in human flesh, and He therefore did NOT correct Thomas.
You IGNORE such passages, because you simply REFUSE to accept His
Deity.
God is God and Jesus Christ is Jesus
Christ.
Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. John 1.
"In the beginning was the WORD (the Son), and the WORD was WITH God
(the Father), and the WORD WAS GOD (the Father).
....
And the WORD (the Son / the Father), took on flesh...
God is the Father and Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died
on a tree and was raised three days later from the dead (God can not
die) by God.
You are AGAIN perverting the true Gospel because you simply REFUSE to
accept/acknowledge His true Divine nature.
You say that "God cannot die." God cannot die, which is why God took
on FLESH, so that the FLESH part of God COULD die in our place.
AGAIN, oh foolish one, you attempt in vain to REASON the nature of
Deity, rather than ACCEPTING the CLEAR teachings of scripture.
That is, you commit the HERESY of DICARDING any scriptures that teach
counter to the HERESY you wish to beileve.
I do hope you will repent of your loyaty and service to men
I hope YOU will repent and belive in the Christ taught in Scripture;
the Christ whom Thomas and Peter and Paul worshipped as God in flesh.
Col 2.
For in Him dwelt the FULLNESS of the Godhead (F / S / HS) in flesh.
Col 1
For He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. (when the invisible Deity
takes flesh, that flesh is the Christ).
to worship
and serve the One True God Who is the Father of Jesus Christ whom the
Bible says is the Son of God.
"Son of God" was ONE of His titles. He was also called "The Mighty
God", and you CONTINUE to commit HERESY by REJECTING all scriptures
that teach His Deity.
You have also returned to your very childish ABUSE by posting in KJV.
Shame on you, you heretic! You DEMONIAC!
jw
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
11 Aug 2005 01:47:56 PM |
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"jw
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:54:14 GMT, Bible Bob
<biblebobnospam@biblebob.net> wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
God is the Father and Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died
on a tree and was raised three days later from the dead (God can not
die) by God.
You are AGAIN perverting the true Gospel because you simply REFUSE to
accept/acknowledge His true Divine nature.
You say that "God cannot die." God cannot die, which is why God took
on FLESH, so that the FLESH part of God COULD die in our place.
===>You don't realize you are saying the same thing.
"FLESH" is MATERIAL.
If "God" (an ET) "took on FLESH", as you claim,
that BODY, that "FLESH" may have been TEMPORARILY
OCCUPIED, like the Body Snatchers in the
scifi movies, and it was that HUMAN BODY that died.
The "god" part did not! The ET simply departed back to
"heaven", i.e. SPACE.
The "god" (ET) never died! So, what was accomplished?
Sacrificing one human body for others is just human sacrifice,
practiced by many ancient cultures. It has no effect on
anything but the person sacrificed. -- L.
.
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| User: "jw" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
11 Aug 2005 07:22:38 PM |
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|
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:47:56 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
"jw
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:54:14 GMT, Bible Bob
<biblebobnospam@biblebob.net> wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
God is the Father and Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died
on a tree and was raised three days later from the dead (God can not
die) by God.
You are AGAIN perverting the true Gospel because you simply REFUSE to
accept/acknowledge His true Divine nature.
You say that "God cannot die." God cannot die, which is why God took
on FLESH, so that the FLESH part of God COULD die in our place.
===>You don't realize you are saying the same thing.
"FLESH" is MATERIAL.
If "God" (an ET) "took on FLESH", as you claim,
that BODY, that "FLESH" may have been TEMPORARILY
OCCUPIED, like the Body Snatchers in the
scifi movies, and it was that HUMAN BODY that died.
The "god" part did not! The ET simply departed back to
"heaven", i.e. SPACE.
The "god" (ET) never died! So, what was accomplished?
Sacrificing one human body for others is just human sacrifice,
practiced by many ancient cultures. It has no effect on
anything but the person sacrificed. -- L.
One does not attempt to define or analyze Deity with human reason,
demoniac.
Now crawl back under your rock.
jw
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| User: "Muffin" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
14 Aug 2005 09:11:23 PM |
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In article <dsqnf15iocak6vlduto40ihun1bunhjnac@4ax.com>, jw
<jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
One does not attempt to define or analyze Deity with human reason,
demoniac.
Now crawl back under your rock.
jw
The closest to demonic possession here is you
It is your rock you piece of filth
.
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
11 Aug 2005 10:20:30 PM |
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jw wrote:
Snip
One does not attempt to define or analyze Deity with
human reason...
How else are *humans* supposed to do it, psycho-boy?
...demoniac.
Now crawl back under your rock.
There's that loving, "Christian" attitude, again...but that's probably
why you're not really a Christian. You're a fraud.
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| User: "Muffin" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
14 Aug 2005 09:11:52 PM |
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In article <1123816830.795939.20070@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "Dave"
<horndw@gmail.com> wrote:
jw wrote:
Snip
One does not attempt to define or analyze Deity with
human reason...
How else are *humans* supposed to do it, psycho-boy?
...demoniac.
Now crawl back under your rock.
There's that loving, "Christian" attitude, again...but that's probably
why you're not really a Christian. You're a fraud
Absolutely
For once we agree
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| User: "Muffin" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
14 Aug 2005 09:10:22 PM |
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In article <106nf11u5obv7clv7usnro90bqu25p2of8@4ax.com>, jw
<jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
You are AGAIN perverting the true Gospel because you simply REFUSE to
accept/acknowledge His true Divine nature.
You seem to equate assent with belief
You seem to be saying that what is required is to accept a pile of crap
and "acknowledge" rather than "believe in" a concept
What a weird cult you belong to - certainly not Christian. It seems to
belong to the mentality of taking the Hitler Oath
But it explains why you are such a bully - you seem to believe in the
Pre-Reformation Roman Catholic doctrine that belief could and should be
forced - if necessary through the use of threat and torture
And where this fails in demonising and burning alive as a heretic
You are not nice JW - you are more catholic than a medieval pope to which
age your entire fundamentalist pseudo theology of threat and violence
combined with invincible ignorance belongs
And a dreadful bully
But NO Christian
If anyone were rotten with evil demons it would have to be you
Rotten to the core
But then there are no demons - it is a personality and character defect
instead that rules your violence
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| User: "Bible Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
11 Aug 2005 10:54:28 PM |
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On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:32:52 -0700, jw <jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:54:14 GMT, Bible Bob
<biblebobnospam@biblebob.net> wrote:
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:21:54 -0700, jw <jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:42:21 GMT, Bible Bob
<biblebobnospam@biblebob.net> wrote:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:00:16 -0700, "Bible John, BA"
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
I dont know Dave if you are a brother in the Lord or a spiritual
terrorist that I need and have been fighting against. John MacArthur
gave me some advice on dealing with terrorists at the Shepherds
conference this year (Luke 11:37ff). Jason also told me that you were
not a brother and you refuse to tell us your doctrine so I assumed you
were not saved, but maybe we were wrong. If it can be proven that you
do accept historic doctrine, then I will very very publicly apologize
for my deceptions about you on my unbeliever page and my general
attitude about you which I would be wrong.
<Of course. Expressed in three Persons.
Now if you don't believe that, then please explain
how "the Spirit of God moved over the face of
the waters" during the creation, if God the Father
was seated in Heaven and it is He and He alone
that make up the Godhead?
Wolfe that cried boy,
When are you going to learn how to read the Bible?
And BB, when are YOU going to learn to read it? The JEsus we believe
in -- the ONe who died on the tree-- is NOT the god you believe in.
The Jesus we believe in is God in flesh.
The Jesus YOU believe in is an angel.
jw
jw,
Not true. I believe in Jesus the Son of God the Creator, the one
named and spoken of in the Bible. You believe in the fairy tale
JeeZeus invented by the Nicean antichrists.
I believe in the Jesus of scripture; ALL of scripture. To believe in
teh Jesus you believe in, you simply must IGNORE too much scripture.
I am glad that you beleive in the Jesus of Scripture. Which one?
There is more than one Jesus named in the Scriptures. I believe in
Jesus the Son of God the Creator also known as Jesus Christ and Christ
Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ and Jesus of Nazereth.
I do not ignore scripture. I do not know all Scripture, but I do not
ignore Scripture. I do know the Scriptures that say that Jesus Christ
is the Son of God. I also know the Scriptures that idolators use in
their feeble attempts to promote Jesus to the position of God the
Creator. Since I have handled all of those passages over the years
right here on this news group; it is not correct for you to say that I
ignore too much Scripture.
You are right that I do
not believe that Jesus is God.
Why not?
It is because I love God and because I love my Lord Jesus Christ. To
confess false teachings of the Niceans is blasphemy in the sense that
it calls God a liar, Jesus Christ a liar, it downplays all that God
did, downplays all that Jesus Christ accomplished and I guess most
important it prevents people from being saved. It is a denial of the
resurrection of Jesus Christ that requires people to confess to be
saved. Man exists because God wants a family. The trinitarian
doctrine hinders the accomplishment of that goal. God first words to
man were "be fruitful and multiply." The trinity can prevent people
from becoming membes of the family of God.
When Thomas saw Jesus' scars, he called Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD!"
Jesus was God in human flesh, and He therefore did NOT correct Thomas.
You IGNORE such passages, because you simply REFUSE to accept His
Deity.
I don't ignore the passages and I have handled it for people right
here on this newsgroup. Read the context in which that verse is used
and find the verse that says "Jesus is God in the flesh."
God is God and Jesus Christ is Jesus
Christ.
Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. John 1.
"In the beginning was the WORD (the Son), and the WORD was WITH God
(the Father), and the WORD WAS GOD (the Father).
The word Jesus does not appear in John 1:1 or John 1:2. You are
making a private interpretation in contravention of 2 Pet 1:20,21.
...
And the WORD (the Son / the Father), took on flesh...
The word Jesus is not in the verse. You are making a private
interpretation in contravention of 2 Pet 1:20,21. We are accountable
to God for rightly dividing the word of truth. I have dedicated a
great many years of my life to that cause and I strick to it even when
it is not popular. Because "Word" is used as a Metaphor in John 1:14
and because the verse begins with the conjunction "and" setting the
"Word" in correspondence with what was said before; then what the
Metaphor represents is in verse 13.
John 1:13 LITV
who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
will of man, but were born of God.
John 1:14 LITV
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His
glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and
of truth.
A Metaphor is comparison by representation which is to say that it is
a statement that something represents something else. God did not use
a Simile, a comparison by resemblance. God used a Metaphor and what
the Metaphor represents is gained from the context in which it is
used. Verse 13 ends by speaking about the will of God. The
conjunction "and" beginning verse 14 which continues the sentence from
verse 13 connects the Metaphor to the will of God. So, the "Word" is
the will of God. The will of God became flesh. If you can understand
that greatness of that statement, you can learn to understand a lot of
Bible.
You don't see the words "the will of" before the word "God" at the end
of verse 13? That is because the words are not there. The reason
that they are not there is because the words form a Ellipsis which a
figure of omission where words a deliberately omitted for the sole
purpose of emphasizing the words omitted. How do I know that the
words "the will of God" should be there? Because the figure
Paradiastole precedes the word "but." Paradiastole is the repetition
of disjunctives. It is also called Neithers and Nors, Eithers and
Ors. Look at verse 13 and you will see the repetition of the
disjunctive "nor".
John 1:13 LITV
who were born not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but were born of God.
The verse speaks of "nor of the will of the flesh" and "nor of the
will of man" and then the conjunction but sets what was said before in
contrast with what follows. They were born not of blood - but were
born of the will of God.
There are no tricks involved jw. It is simply basic Biblical research
the way it is supposed to be done.
God is the Father and Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died
on a tree and was raised three days later from the dead (God can not
die) by God.
You are AGAIN perverting the true Gospel because you simply REFUSE to
accept/acknowledge His true Divine nature.
Woe there. That is a false assertion. I have not denied Christs
divine nature; nor yours. I just happen to know what divine nature
means and it is not what I suspect you are implying. Divine nature is
that nature which is divine and spiritual. I guess you could say that
divine nature is a contradiction of terms because one has to do with
God Who is spirit and nature has to do with that which is natural.
But it conveys the idea that that which God is, is in what is spoken
about. Right? God is Divine and God is Spirit. What God puts His
divine spirit in is divine. When God put some of His divine spirit in
Christ Christ became divine. When God put some of his divine spirit
in us we became divine in that part of our nature. The word Godhead
is a mistranslation of divine nature. Colossians says that Christ's
body was filed to capacity with the divine nature.
You say that "God cannot die." God cannot die, which is why God took
on FLESH, so that the FLESH part of God COULD die in our place.
The Bible does not say "God took on flesh". People say that, but the
Bible does not say that.
AGAIN, oh foolish one, you attempt in vain to REASON the nature of
Deity, rather than ACCEPTING the CLEAR teachings of scripture.
No, not vain reasoning. Ackowledgement of truth from scripture. I am
honest when I study the scriptures. I do not take the one unclear
verse and lawd it over many clear verses on the same subject that say
just the opposite. There are many scriptures that say Jesus is the
Son of God and that God is the Father. How many verses say that Jesus
is God the Father? None.
That is, you commit the HERESY of DICARDING any scriptures that teach
counter to the HERESY you wish to beileve.
You got it backwards. Heresy means to be a schismatic; to cause
division. Division is caused by people who wrongly divide the word of
truth. Those men who in the fourth century took a vote and made Jesus
God the Creator wrongly divided the word of truth and caused division
in the church. All I do is rightly divide the word of truth so that
people have an opportunity to come back to the truth of God's word. A
heretic is a trinitarian who uses false doctrine to cause division in
the body of Christ. A heretic would also be one that teaches that God
did not raise Jesus from the dead as the trinitarians do. A heretic
would ones who preach a gospel other than the one that Paul preached
which is what the trinitarians do. Heck, jw, all you have to do to
learn the truth is believe the opposite of what the triniarians teach.
Then you can learn some real Bible.
I do hope you will repent of your loyaty and service to men
I hope YOU will repent and belive in the Christ taught in Scripture;
the Christ whom Thomas and Peter and Paul worshipped as God in flesh.
I do worship the true Christ Jesus; the one spoken of in the
Scriptures. You are trying to browbeat me into worshipping a false
god created by devious men in the fourth century.
Col 2.
For in Him dwelt the FULLNESS of the Godhead (F / S / HS) in flesh.
You falsefied another passage. That is not what the passage says.
Why don't you quote passages properly; better yet, cut and paste them
so that you make feweer errors. Here is the actual passage. The
fullness of the divine nature didn't just "dwelt" in him; it "dwells"
in him. He isn't dead and God does not take back what He gives.
Colossians 2:9 LITV
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
I'll keep it simple. The word "Godhead" is a wrong translation of
theotes. Everybody knows that. The word means "divinity." The verses
says that Christ was filled to the capacity his body would hold with
divinity. In other words, God filled Christ with holy spirit. But
God being the filler and Christ being the filled makes two different
entities; one superior and one lesser.
Col 1
For He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. (when the invisible Deity
takes flesh, that flesh is the Christ).
Once again you falsified a passage of scripture. The passage proves
that Christ and God are two separate entities. The passage reads:
Colossians 1:15 LITV
who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
The verse says that he is the image(the eikon = icon, likeness of and
separate from) the invisible God. The icons on your desktop are
little representations of the big programs they are linked to. Jesus
Christ is a representation of God, but not God.
to worship
and serve the One True God Who is the Father of Jesus Christ whom the
Bible says is the Son of God.
"Son of God" was ONE of His titles. He was also called "The Mighty
God", and you CONTINUE to commit HERESY by REJECTING all scriptures
that teach His Deity.
That is a falsehood. Son of God is not a title but a relationship
just as we are sons of God or children of God. We don't have titles,
we have relationship. He is the Father and we are the children and
that shows our legal biological relationship to the Father. The same
for Jesus Christ who is the biological Son of God.
No, jw, you continue to commit heresy be working hard to overthrow the
faith of some with the doctrines of devils. Not once in any post
between us have you ever been able to prove yourself right from the
scriptures against what I have said. Not even one time. That is
because you do not know the scriptures. You know the doctrines and
comamndments of men which are contrary to God, His Word, His, Son, and
nature. I do not reject the Scriptures. There are no Scriptures that
say that Jesus Christ is God. No NOT even one. There are some where
he is referred to as a god when the passages are translated correctly.
You have also returned to your very childish ABUSE by posting in KJV.
Where do you see KJV posted to you by me above? You are telling a
flat out lie. I go through the extra trouble of making sure that I
quote scriptures from the LITV to honor your request.
Shame on you, you heretic! You DEMONIAC!
No shame on you jw for all of the falsehoods you have spoken against
me, against Jesus Christ, against God, against God's Word, and against
Christ's church. God did not give you word of knowledge or word of
wisdom or discerning of spirits telling you that I am a demoniac. You
made that lie up yourself or with the help of a spiritual associated
that is not God the Father of Jesus Christ. It is the god of this
world, Satan, who is the false accuser and his children act just like
him. They make accusations against the saints of God.
jw
Non-commercial website where everything is free.
http://www.biblebob.net
BB
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
12 Aug 2005 02:00:06 PM |
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On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:00:16 -0700, "Bible John, BA" <john.doggett@x-files.gov>
wrote:
Now if you don't believe that, then please explain
how "the Spirit of God moved over the face of
the waters" during the creation, if God the Father
was seated in Heaven and it is He and He alone
that make up the Godhead?
God is the Holy Trinity.
The Scriptures also tell us clearly that it
is a "Godhead".>
It appears from above that you accept the trinity or do you not?
Pastor Dave can you please answer these questions.
1. How does one become saved? What about those that claim that they
said the sinners prayer, yet lived a life contrary to Christ. Are they
saved? Why do we need to be saved? Are all sinners?
Jesus and only Jesus decides.
2. Are we saved by Grace or works, or both?
Saved thru grace, but by judgment of Christ.
3. Did Jesus arise from the dead on the third day, and why was he
crucified?
"Why" is beyond comprehension.
4. Was Jesus Christ God, or was he created?
Jesus Christ was God become man.
5. Is the Godhead made up of the father, son and Holy Spirit?
Absolutely.
6. What version of the bible is inspired? Some believe that the KJV is
the only inspired word of God. Do you believe this? Do you also
believe in the Verbal plenary dictation view? This view holds 2 Tim
3:16 as literal. While the liberal christians hold that only the
"ideas" in scripture are inspired by God, yet not all words are.
The KJV is error laced in the NT, but good in the OT. All bib lies without
exception are translations by man.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "jw" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
09 Aug 2005 10:20:36 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:00:16 -0700, "Bible John, BA"
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
I dont know Dave if you are a brother in the Lord or a spiritual
terrorist that I need and have been fighting against. John MacArthur
gave me some advice on dealing with terrorists at the Shepherds
conference this year (Luke 11:37ff). Jason also told me that you were
not a brother and you refuse to tell us your doctrine so I assumed you
were not saved, but maybe we were wrong. If it can be proven that you
do accept historic doctrine, then I will very very publicly apologize
for my deceptions about you on my unbeliever page and my general
attitude about you which I would be wrong.
BJ. if no one has told you yet, let me be the first to do so. And in
this regard, I had to correct Dr. John MacArthur when the Rev Jesse
Jackson had John's head spinning like the little girl in "The
Exorcist". Paul AND Jesus spelled it out EXPLICITLY, in no uncertain
terms.
'If you deny me before men..." (refuse to OPENLY admit your faith) "
I will deny you before my father..."
The simplest tset of whether one belong to Jesus is this: Does the
person OPENLY declare that he is a follow of the Risen Christ? You
should not be guessing.
Paul said-- no discussion, no "ifs" "ands" or "buts", "ALWAYS be ready
with an answer..." ALWAYS.
If you ask someone (be it Dave or Don / Ted) and he REFUSES to tell
you that he belongs to / and is a follow of the Christ (not that he is
perfect, and he needs make no comparison-- "well, I'm not as good a
Christian as X...') if he REFUSES to declare openly that he is a
follower, then he is not.
It truly is that simple.
I know there are 10,000 traditions out there in the world as to how
such questions are to be handled. The Episcopalians do it THIS way;
the Roman Catholics handle it THIS way; the Mennonites do it THIS way;
the SDAs do it THIS way.
Jesus said, "If you will not OPENLY confess your faith..." (even with
a gun to your head as has happend to so some of us), you are not one
of His no matter what you say.
"... and I will deny you before my Father..."
And I continue to wonder-- with alarm-- with all the education and
"training" you have had... how these little things that are SO
important have managed to slip past you.
jw
<Of course. Expressed in three Persons.
Now if you don't believe that, then please explain
how "the Spirit of God moved over the face of
the waters" during the creation, if God the Father
was seated in Heaven and it is He and He alone
that make up the Godhead?
The Scriptures also tell us clearly that it
is a "Godhead".>
It appears from above that you accept the trinity or do you not?
Pastor Dave can you please answer these questions.
1. How does one become saved? What about those that claim that they
said the sinners prayer, yet lived a life contrary to Christ. Are they
saved? Why do we need to be saved? Are all sinners?
2. Are we saved by Grace or works, or both?
3. Did Jesus arise from the dead on the third day, and why was he
crucified?
4. Was Jesus Christ God, or was he created?
5. Is the Godhead made up of the father, son and Holy Spirit?
6. What version of the bible is inspired? Some believe that the KJV is
the only inspired word of God. Do you believe this? Do you also
believe in the Verbal plenary dictation view? This view holds 2 Tim
3:16 as literal. While the liberal christians hold that only the
"ideas" in scripture are inspired by God, yet not all words are.
That should be enough for the essentials to the faith. Non essential
issues such as sign gifts, theology of women in ministry, theology of
calling, theology of the day of worship, calvinism vs. arminism,
philosophy of ministry, phil of Youth or adult ministry, phil of music
and such are not essential core historic doctrines that we may disagree
or agree on. But most of my disagreements here is in regard to the
essentials to the faith. Rarely is there a christian to christian
debate in these boards. At Simpson I was involved in all kinds of these
kinds of debates with students and pastors.
Thank you Pastor Dave
John
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| User: "Muffin" |
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| Title: Re: Is Pastor Dave saved and a brother or unsaved and headed for hell? |
10 Aug 2005 05:00:54 PM |
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In article <s0ihf1p4l1krhhl1g563jpfsphqv7ntbk0@4ax.com>, jw
<jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
The simplest tset of whether one belong to Jesus is this: Does the
person OPENLY declare that he is a follow of the Risen Christ? You
should not be guessing.
What planet are you on?????
By the same token in an interrogation
First Question
Did you kill your wife?
Answer
NO
Second question
Would you like us to make you a nice cup of tea before we get one of our
officers to drive you home?
End of interrogation (obviously not guilty)
You, John, live in a mad midnight world where if someone declares they are
a follower of the Risen Christ and they aren't (taking you for an obvious
example) - then God stikes them dead with a bolt of blue lightning
Dream on!
It ain't happening (you are still here :-) )
ZZZZAPPPPPPP!!!!
+
Muffin
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